First thread for me, so "bear" with me if I am posting this idea in the wrong place. I didn't find any other references in the Druid Section
I am playing as a Moon-Druid hybrid in a campaign that the DM has already stated will have Not have Dinosaurs and Not have "sub saharan" beasts (ie: Elephant, Rhino, etc). Thus far, our campaign as mostly been landlocked so outside of the Giant Constrictor Snake and Giant Toad (I Conjured Beast with it, so technically it exists in this world) there likely won't be any aquatic creatures for me to see. So at CR 3 and above will likely have a very small number of beasts available to Wild Ship outside of CR 2's and Elemental.
At level 7, I am quite happy with the options available, but I know this will be an issue as I go down the road, and I don't want elemental shape shifting to be the only option on the table. Are there any good alternatives to dealing with Wild Shapes in this type of Scenario that I could recommend?
I was GOING to suggest allowing my Character to take a lower CR beast, and adding an additional HD + CON for improving HP and +1 to two Physical Stats (alternative +1 Proficiency Bonus) and treating that beast as One CR Higher than it's Monster Manual listing, but I don't know if this balanced or reasonable. IE: CR 3 version of a CR Giant Elk might get a +1 to Both Str and Dex (or +1 to Proficiency Bonus), and an additional 1d12+2 HP...
What other alternatives could I suggest to my DM for deal with Wildshape at a higher level?
I like the idea of creating a template for scaling up existing beasts to accommodate Wild shape at higher levels: Standard, Dire, Primal, etc... This would represent diversity among a normal population of the type of beasts you would already be familiar with.
While it's not a perfect solution, you might also ask about adapting the Summon Beast spell to give you a generic statblock for Wildshape. Your effective "spell level" would scale relative to your class level. This would give you a go-to Combat option, separate from other utility forms.
Yeah, putting together a list is probably the best way to do it, to save time and discussion during game play and make sure the DM approves. I remember 3.5 having a lot more variations of the same creature like Spider, in comparison to 5th. Will take that advice.
Had not even thought about following the Summon Beast template for stat calculation. The bonus to proficiency damage is nice, and it is a much more simple way to add Multi-attack. low HP though, but could mess around with it.
There is nothing inherently 'dinosaurish' in dinosaur stat blocks. An allosaurus is a Dire Tiger. Similarly, elephant/rhino are basically Giant Oxen. Slap some new names on them and you're good to go.
Cannot agree more with curating a list to present to your DM. I like doing the same thing with conjure animals if the DM is open to it. It really does help with logistics, but it also helps hone in on a particular flavor of druid.
There is nothing inherently 'dinosaurish' in dinosaur stat blocks. An allosaurus is a Dire Tiger. Similarly, elephant/rhino are basically Giant Oxen. Slap some new names on them and you're good to go.
This is a really smart solution. As long as you don't touch the mechanics of something in DnD, anything is fair game when it comes to how you flavor things.
I'll throw Giant Scorpion out there as my favorite CR 3+ option. Not sure if that falls directly under the purview of your limitations though. Honestly, I don't think there are many CR 3+ options that meaningfully compete with the elementals even without your restrictions.
Giant creatures exist in this world but I have not seen a single Dire Creature (was really disappointed to not have a Dire Wolf for CR 1 list)... worse case scenario with Giant Scorpion, I can find a regular scorpion and cast Giant Insect on it.
The big issue is seeing the creature... so even if we want to allow for a Dire Tiger using a Allosaurus stat (despite there being no tigers or lions), I still have to see it before turning into it. The idea of BUFFING an existing creature I have seen, is that it overcomes that restrictive handicap... but I can probably work around a conversation with the DM around this.
bottom line.. CREATE A LIST seems to be the way to go forward before talking to the DM.
I think you are pointing out the biggest problem with Moon Druid: The usefulness of the beast forms you can assume starts high at level 2 but trends continually downward.
To be honest, the elemental forms are the designed class features that are supposed to improve wildshape at higher levels - and even those fall off in effectiveness at very high levels. If you don't want to use them, that is certainly your prerogative, but I'm not sure that means the class needs to be adjusted. You are, after all, choosing not to use the feature that is supposed to account for the problem you are describing.
Have you considered simply re-flavoring the earth elemental into a land beast form or the air elemental into an air beast form? (similar to the flavoring in the new summon spell or the way that Tasha's allows re-flavoring of other spells?)
What is it exactly about the elemental forms that makes you hesitant to use them? If you want to homebrew some solution at least as good as them, then you really need to consider that using it should still cost both of your wildshape uses.
Sorry, didnt mean to confuse about the wildshape issue i had at hand. Dont think ive ever implied elemental wild shapes are off the table. I dont think its implied i have to have seen an elemental to wildshape into one. My issue was related to the campaign setting having limited Beasts that i could observe before turning into them.
Wild shaping into an elemental is def something i am looking forward to (especially Air, because I have a single level in Monk and will have a good bump to AC), but i dont like the idea of limiting both my wild shapes (per short rest) to one form... and honestly the shifting into a Giant Bear, Elk or wild animal have been a major part if her character design (ie, turns into a combat mount or a large beast forsheer physical intimidation, etc). I was asking for suggestions with specifically the Beast List
Yep.. brain storming on it now.. but, gotta figure out how i will have seen it. Will provide the list to the DM ahead of time to hopefully allow those sort of creatures show up before hand in the environment. World is kind of a wartorn world, so Zoo's are out of the question
You might also just take a look at the beastiary of DDB or the like that will let you look at specific CR's to see what names of creatures come up in the list then look them up in the books or what have you to know what their statblocks are. DDB does a thing where many beasts are actually listed by their most typical terrains to be found in so maybe you can find something you can use and convince your DM that you somehow saw that way.
What about things like (European) bison, ibex, muskox and the like? Some of them could easily substitute say, Rhinos or bigger felines. Giant lynxes, for example.
I think the biggest hurdle is the desire to have wildshape forms in the CR 3-4 range that meaningfully compete with the efficacy of elemental forms. They just don't really exist, whether you limit by environment or not.
Homebrewing a scaling mechanism for existing forms from lower CR's is one of the better solutions. The whole dire/primal progression.
As a reminder, that increased usefulness of those elemental forms comes at the price of using both wildshape uses — which any home brew solution to make beasts stronger should also do.
The OP specifically states they want more options than Elemental forms.
And that is not some hard truth. You can scale up a lower CR form without making it as powerful as an elemental. Forms like Giant Elk and Wolf have great qualities for a higher CR form, but simply lag behind on HP and to a lesser extent stats. There is a large middle ground between making these forms so powerful that they require 2 wildshape charges and scaling them to a higher CR.
And there are non-dinosaur beasts of every CR that a druid can access already, and all of the forms could be reflavored. The OP seems like they are complaining of a well known problem with Moon druid: it feels amazing at level 2 but never that good again. Too bad, that is how the class works.
And there are non-dinosaur beasts of every CR that a druid can access already, and all of the forms could be reflavored. The OP seems like they are complaining of a well known problem with Moon druid: it feels amazing at level 2 but never that good again. Too bad, that is how the class works.
This is probably a good time for me to ask. Because either my brain has died and I just don't know it yet or I really missed something in their stat blocks. But why are people so hung up on turning into Rhino's or Dinosaurs anyway?
There are other things that just as strong and in fact a couple of things that I'd consider far more dangerous to my estimation. So I'm wondering what I missed or may have read wrong or not seen an errata for or something.
And there are non-dinosaur beasts of every CR that a druid can access already, and all of the forms could be reflavored. The OP seems like they are complaining of a well known problem with Moon druid: it feels amazing at level 2 but never that good again. Too bad, that is how the class works.
If you're going to be so dismissive why post? "Too bad so sad" is not a constructive thing to say.
And just because it's a well known problem (or feature) doesn't mean it has to stay as one. DnD design is not some infallible thing. It is in fact possible to tweak with the rules without upsetting game balance.
Creating templates to boost lower CR forms to higher ones is a great option. I'm not going to pretend to be well versed enough in homebrew to be able to do it myself, but it is possible. Not everyone wants to reflavor animals into different ones. That bothers some sensibilities and also doesn't solve the problem that the higher CR forms largely don't offer enough to be worth it.
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First thread for me, so "bear" with me if I am posting this idea in the wrong place. I didn't find any other references in the Druid Section
I am playing as a Moon-Druid hybrid in a campaign that the DM has already stated will have Not have Dinosaurs and Not have "sub saharan" beasts (ie: Elephant, Rhino, etc). Thus far, our campaign as mostly been landlocked so outside of the Giant Constrictor Snake and Giant Toad (I Conjured Beast with it, so technically it exists in this world) there likely won't be any aquatic creatures for me to see. So at CR 3 and above will likely have a very small number of beasts available to Wild Ship outside of CR 2's and Elemental.
At level 7, I am quite happy with the options available, but I know this will be an issue as I go down the road, and I don't want elemental shape shifting to be the only option on the table. Are there any good alternatives to dealing with Wild Shapes in this type of Scenario that I could recommend?
I was GOING to suggest allowing my Character to take a lower CR beast, and adding an additional HD + CON for improving HP and +1 to two Physical Stats (alternative +1 Proficiency Bonus) and treating that beast as One CR Higher than it's Monster Manual listing, but I don't know if this balanced or reasonable. IE: CR 3 version of a CR Giant Elk might get a +1 to Both Str and Dex (or +1 to Proficiency Bonus), and an additional 1d12+2 HP...
What other alternatives could I suggest to my DM for deal with Wildshape at a higher level?
I like the idea of creating a template for scaling up existing beasts to accommodate Wild shape at higher levels: Standard, Dire, Primal, etc... This would represent diversity among a normal population of the type of beasts you would already be familiar with.
While it's not a perfect solution, you might also ask about adapting the Summon Beast spell to give you a generic statblock for Wildshape. Your effective "spell level" would scale relative to your class level. This would give you a go-to Combat option, separate from other utility forms.
Yeah, putting together a list is probably the best way to do it, to save time and discussion during game play and make sure the DM approves. I remember 3.5 having a lot more variations of the same creature like Spider, in comparison to 5th. Will take that advice.
Had not even thought about following the Summon Beast template for stat calculation. The bonus to proficiency damage is nice, and it is a much more simple way to add Multi-attack. low HP though, but could mess around with it.
Thanks Memnosyne
There is nothing inherently 'dinosaurish' in dinosaur stat blocks. An allosaurus is a Dire Tiger. Similarly, elephant/rhino are basically Giant Oxen. Slap some new names on them and you're good to go.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Cannot agree more with curating a list to present to your DM. I like doing the same thing with conjure animals if the DM is open to it. It really does help with logistics, but it also helps hone in on a particular flavor of druid.
This is a really smart solution. As long as you don't touch the mechanics of something in DnD, anything is fair game when it comes to how you flavor things.
I'll throw Giant Scorpion out there as my favorite CR 3+ option. Not sure if that falls directly under the purview of your limitations though. Honestly, I don't think there are many CR 3+ options that meaningfully compete with the elementals even without your restrictions.
Giant creatures exist in this world but I have not seen a single Dire Creature (was really disappointed to not have a Dire Wolf for CR 1 list)... worse case scenario with Giant Scorpion, I can find a regular scorpion and cast Giant Insect on it.
The big issue is seeing the creature... so even if we want to allow for a Dire Tiger using a Allosaurus stat (despite there being no tigers or lions), I still have to see it before turning into it. The idea of BUFFING an existing creature I have seen, is that it overcomes that restrictive handicap... but I can probably work around a conversation with the DM around this.
bottom line.. CREATE A LIST seems to be the way to go forward before talking to the DM.
Sounds like you either need to go find a zoo, or find a high level mage who can conjure/polymorph something into a few forms for you.
Historical records of zoos and menageries date back to 2500 BCE, so you shouldn't have any issue finding one somewhere...
You would essentially be buying Wildshape forms the same way that Wizards transcribe spells.
I think you are pointing out the biggest problem with Moon Druid: The usefulness of the beast forms you can assume starts high at level 2 but trends continually downward.
To be honest, the elemental forms are the designed class features that are supposed to improve wildshape at higher levels - and even those fall off in effectiveness at very high levels. If you don't want to use them, that is certainly your prerogative, but I'm not sure that means the class needs to be adjusted. You are, after all, choosing not to use the feature that is supposed to account for the problem you are describing.
Have you considered simply re-flavoring the earth elemental into a land beast form or the air elemental into an air beast form? (similar to the flavoring in the new summon spell or the way that Tasha's allows re-flavoring of other spells?)
What is it exactly about the elemental forms that makes you hesitant to use them? If you want to homebrew some solution at least as good as them, then you really need to consider that using it should still cost both of your wildshape uses.
Sorry, didnt mean to confuse about the wildshape issue i had at hand. Dont think ive ever implied elemental wild shapes are off the table. I dont think its implied i have to have seen an elemental to wildshape into one. My issue was related to the campaign setting having limited Beasts that i could observe before turning into them.
Wild shaping into an elemental is def something i am looking forward to (especially Air, because I have a single level in Monk and will have a good bump to AC), but i dont like the idea of limiting both my wild shapes (per short rest) to one form... and honestly the shifting into a Giant Bear, Elk or wild animal have been a major part if her character design (ie, turns into a combat mount or a large beast forsheer physical intimidation, etc). I was asking for suggestions with specifically the Beast List
Again, have you considered re flavoring the options that are available into better versions of creatures you already knew?
Yep.. brain storming on it now.. but, gotta figure out how i will have seen it. Will provide the list to the DM ahead of time to hopefully allow those sort of creatures show up before hand in the environment. World is kind of a wartorn world, so Zoo's are out of the question
You may be surprised. Wars create unbelieveable inequality. You may find more than one warlord with any number of exotic pets taken as trophies.
However, if that's a no-go, you could ask about visiting a library or research laboratory. Live versus dead versus drawn in detail may be a grey area.
You might also just take a look at the beastiary of DDB or the like that will let you look at specific CR's to see what names of creatures come up in the list then look them up in the books or what have you to know what their statblocks are. DDB does a thing where many beasts are actually listed by their most typical terrains to be found in so maybe you can find something you can use and convince your DM that you somehow saw that way.
What about things like (European) bison, ibex, muskox and the like? Some of them could easily substitute say, Rhinos or bigger felines. Giant lynxes, for example.
I think the biggest hurdle is the desire to have wildshape forms in the CR 3-4 range that meaningfully compete with the efficacy of elemental forms. They just don't really exist, whether you limit by environment or not.
Homebrewing a scaling mechanism for existing forms from lower CR's is one of the better solutions. The whole dire/primal progression.
Again, that is why you get elemental forms.
As a reminder, that increased usefulness of those elemental forms comes at the price of using both wildshape uses — which any home brew solution to make beasts stronger should also do.
The OP specifically states they want more options than Elemental forms.
And that is not some hard truth. You can scale up a lower CR form without making it as powerful as an elemental. Forms like Giant Elk and Wolf have great qualities for a higher CR form, but simply lag behind on HP and to a lesser extent stats. There is a large middle ground between making these forms so powerful that they require 2 wildshape charges and scaling them to a higher CR.
And there are non-dinosaur beasts of every CR that a druid can access already, and all of the forms could be reflavored. The OP seems like they are complaining of a well known problem with Moon druid: it feels amazing at level 2 but never that good again. Too bad, that is how the class works.
This is probably a good time for me to ask. Because either my brain has died and I just don't know it yet or I really missed something in their stat blocks. But why are people so hung up on turning into Rhino's or Dinosaurs anyway?
There are other things that just as strong and in fact a couple of things that I'd consider far more dangerous to my estimation. So I'm wondering what I missed or may have read wrong or not seen an errata for or something.
If you're going to be so dismissive why post? "Too bad so sad" is not a constructive thing to say.
And just because it's a well known problem (or feature) doesn't mean it has to stay as one. DnD design is not some infallible thing. It is in fact possible to tweak with the rules without upsetting game balance.
Creating templates to boost lower CR forms to higher ones is a great option. I'm not going to pretend to be well versed enough in homebrew to be able to do it myself, but it is possible. Not everyone wants to reflavor animals into different ones. That bothers some sensibilities and also doesn't solve the problem that the higher CR forms largely don't offer enough to be worth it.