I would say yes. If you are the one drawing the attention. In fact I built a EK/Swashbuckler Rouge. After some discussion with my DM would allow 2 sneak attacks in a round at lvl 5. I as the character would get into melee with an enemy summon echo behind enemy and attack getting sneak attack #1. Then echo retreats making one on one combat with main character which procs swashbuckler sneak attack.
Sneak attack can only be used once per turn, the echo is an object which cannot give you flanking or any sneak attack requirements for that matter. If your DM is fine with changing multiple rules so you can be stronger, that's fair, but RAW and RAI this is not allowed.
RAW is Rules As Written, or what the text literally means. RAI is Rules As Intended, or how the developers want the rule to function. An example is the Ranger's Land's Stride ability. RAI, the ranger isn't impeded by thorny plants or tough brambles. RAW, a ranger could phase through non-magical plants, like trees.
I think an Echo should be able to provide Flanking, and here is why. It is intrinsically different from spiritual weapon BECAUSE it has the ability to use your reaction to make attacks of opportunity... I would think that THAT makes it very different from Spiritual Weapon. It IS providing a source of threat to the opponent as an attack or reaction can be made from it.
I think an Echo should be able to provide Flanking, and here is why. It is intrinsically different from spiritual weapon BECAUSE it has the ability to use your reaction to make attacks of opportunity... I would think that THAT makes it very different from Spiritual Weapon. It IS providing a source of threat to the opponent as an attack or reaction can be made from it.
The requirement for flanking is that the flankers be allied creatures. The echo is not a creature, it is an object, therefore it cannot flank. If you or your DM want to overrule that, you can, but RAI and RAW it cannot flank.
RAW say an object cannot provide a flanking bonus for a creature. I have noticed, however, that RAW does not say the same for a Creature giving a Flanking Bonus to an object. Think about this; the object cannot provide a flanking bonus because it cannot harry an opponent, but a Creature can harry an opponent to provide a flanking bonus. In this way, technically, the clever warrior can use his environment as an ally.
As an example, two creatures square off and begin combat, one of those participants maneuvers his enemy into the zone of effect for a Spear Trap (one that requires an attack to hit), and both Creatures are aware of the trap. Can the clever warrior harry his opponent to give that trap advantage on its triggered attack? I'm inclined to say "yes", but then, my motives are very biased.
Saddest part is that you can't use Bait and Switch with the echo. Such a cool concept adding the ability to teleport between the mimic of yourself, but RAW is RAW. TBF, Bait and Switch would be ******* BROKEN with an echo, but **** you I think it's cool x)
RAW is Rules As Written, or what the text literally means. RAI is Rules As Intended, or how the developers want the rule to function. An example is the Ranger's Land's Stride ability. RAI, the ranger isn't impeded by thorny plants or tough brambles. RAW, a ranger could phase through non-magical plants, like trees.
Quick correction: the PHB Ranger (via Land's Stride at 8th lvl) is not impeded by non-magical plants is NOT the same as being able to phase through trees. A sufficiently large enough tree will force a Ranger to move around it if the Ranger cannot swing through it's branches.
Mercer's ruling makes sense to me. The echo isn't a creature unto itself, it's an extension of you. Plus, the idea of a greatsword-wielding Echo Knight with GWM being able to basically give themselves advantage on ALL their attacks could get ugly, especially if they also had Elven Accuracy. :)
Thats called 5 lvls of Echo Knight and 2 lvls of Barbarian. Reckless Attack through your Echo with GWM. Follow that up with a 3rd lvl in Barbarian taking Ancestral Guardian and then take Sentinel...now thats a build! (but really only works on single targets).
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Sneak attack can only be used once per turn, the echo is an object which cannot give you flanking or any sneak attack requirements for that matter. If your DM is fine with changing multiple rules so you can be stronger, that's fair, but RAW and RAI this is not allowed.
What is RAW?
Rules as Written
She/Her College Student Player and Dungeon Master
RAW is Rules As Written, or what the text literally means. RAI is Rules As Intended, or how the developers want the rule to function. An example is the Ranger's Land's Stride ability. RAI, the ranger isn't impeded by thorny plants or tough brambles. RAW, a ranger could phase through non-magical plants, like trees.
I was trying to find out what the acronym for RAW and RAI is.
Cool thanks for the clarification. Wont be playing that way again. Definitely did not read everything correctly.
I think an Echo should be able to provide Flanking, and here is why. It is intrinsically different from spiritual weapon BECAUSE it has the ability to use your reaction to make attacks of opportunity... I would think that THAT makes it very different from Spiritual Weapon. It IS providing a source of threat to the opponent as an attack or reaction can be made from it.
The requirement for flanking is that the flankers be allied creatures. The echo is not a creature, it is an object, therefore it cannot flank. If you or your DM want to overrule that, you can, but RAI and RAW it cannot flank.
Here's an interesting premise:
RAW say an object cannot provide a flanking bonus for a creature. I have noticed, however, that RAW does not say the same for a Creature giving a Flanking Bonus to an object. Think about this; the object cannot provide a flanking bonus because it cannot harry an opponent, but a Creature can harry an opponent to provide a flanking bonus. In this way, technically, the clever warrior can use his environment as an ally.
As an example, two creatures square off and begin combat, one of those participants maneuvers his enemy into the zone of effect for a Spear Trap (one that requires an attack to hit), and both Creatures are aware of the trap. Can the clever warrior harry his opponent to give that trap advantage on its triggered attack? I'm inclined to say "yes", but then, my motives are very biased.
Scent-sitive As Always,
The Grim Ripper
Saddest part is that you can't use Bait and Switch with the echo. Such a cool concept adding the ability to teleport between the mimic of yourself, but RAW is RAW. TBF, Bait and Switch would be ******* BROKEN with an echo, but **** you I think it's cool x)
This is the correct answer. Your echo is not a creature. The Spiritual Weapon is an apt analogy.
Confirmed by Jeremy Crawford
https://twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/1240664419161399297?lang=en
Sage Advice
https://www.sageadvice.eu/would-an-echo-knights-echo-provide-flanking-advantage/
Quick correction: the PHB Ranger (via Land's Stride at 8th lvl) is not impeded by non-magical plants is NOT the same as being able to phase through trees. A sufficiently large enough tree will force a Ranger to move around it if the Ranger cannot swing through it's branches.
Thats called 5 lvls of Echo Knight and 2 lvls of Barbarian. Reckless Attack through your Echo with GWM. Follow that up with a 3rd lvl in Barbarian taking Ancestral Guardian and then take Sentinel...now thats a build! (but really only works on single targets).