So to rehash - A grapple as the rules state under the section in the players handbook underlined as Melee Attacks where the situations lay out a one for one exchange ratio of attacks (if you have more than one of them) for grapples, So your AoO could be exchanged for a grapple, push or other equivalent action. Could be, Not must be, Could be. The assessment should first be made about whether this would allow something to harm your game, whether by including or excluding it. Now that decision on any given day is up to the DM and this is food for their and their players thoughts.
Again its not a Melee attack, its a special melee attack that on your ACTION can replace a normal melee attack. Just cause your ignoring the rules doesn't change the rules. The first sentence of grapple says it.
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use theAttack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple.
Again its not a Melee attack, its a special melee attack that on your ACTION
Yes I see your confusion - its not a thing, its the thing thats not a thing.
Rehashing - You can disallow grapple reactions / AoO but thats not the point - this thread was about monks and grappling and as grappling requires a hand (or flexible appendage/possibly weapon) and not a melee weapon free what other classes do you know that would have a hand weaponless in melee? What other class would if someone tried to run from them without disengaging and so asking for trouble have the first thought of sweeping the leg or grabbing them by the scruff of the neck? Weapon disarming is not a thing in 5th - and worse you cant really included it without making the battlemasters unique ability to do so lesser. Including Grapple / Trips for reactions should be allowed or not on the assessment that it is either fun and good for the game or not, no other reason.
this thread was about monks and grappling and as grappling requires a hand (or flexible appendage/possibly weapon) and not a melee weapon free what other classes do you know that would have a hand weaponless in melee? What other class would if someone tried to run from them without disengaging and so asking for trouble have the first thought of sweeping the leg or grabbing them by the scruff of the neck? Weapon disarming is not a thing in 5th - and worse you cant really included it without making the battlemasters unique ability to do so lesser. Including Grapple / Trips for reactions should be allowed or not on the assessment that it is either fun and good for the game or not, no other reason.
What other class would like to expertly use grapple as a way to prevent escape or set up mad combos? Raging barbarians, any variation of fighter/ranger/paladin with the Dueling fighting style, rogues or bards with expertise in Athletics. Monks are still the masters of unarmed combat however, because they have a lot of options to both control their foes and deal decent damage with unarmed attacks and ki points, not least of which is the already mentioned Stunning Strike.
If you want to discuss adding or changing the rules because you feel it's more fun for the game, you'll probably find more support in the Homebrew & House Rules section. Rules as written: Grappling and shoving both specify that you have to use the Attack action, so they are not available for your opportunity attack.
Agreed Twooshort, but I was answering this thread and offering a work around to what the thread poster felt was a deficit to the monk. Regarding your fighter+ group of 'grapplers' all would require them to abandon a two handed weapon option or a shield option, it would not with a monk. If you really wanted to take advantage of a barbarians rage str check adv the player would probably go barb / MC monk.
Multiclass seems like the the wrong suggestion for this particular optimization. Why miss out on amazing high-level benefits of either class when it is easy (and reversible) to simply switch to a one-handed weapon if the situation calls for having a free hand for increased tactical flexibility (grappling, climbing, or carrying heavy stuff)?
Ah but then we are back to grapple reactions - and monks - they are the class likely to have a free hand ready for that moment, others could choose to switch on their turn. but couldnt simply react and thats the point about monks, they are ready to wrestle, all the time.
It doesnt seem that monks specifically get the shaft from grapple but that grapple as a whole is meh. From what i gather it was way more complicated in earlier editions ((as was everything))
So IMO Grappling is meh compared to knocking something prone or stunning it....
Wrestling was ridiculous in first or second as monsters didnt have physical stats so even a mage could wrestle just about anything in his weight class. In 3rd it shut people down hard but the contest of skills applied to monsters on hit (no automatic grapple and restrain) as well. It wasnt more complicated but combat maneuvers often required a to hit roll (against modified AC) and then a second contested roll which did slow combat sometimes. 4th, did not play, cant say. So 5th grapple and what they are used for.
No combat options need be considered if you can bully the enemy with overmatched strength. It is when your opponent is better than you in every way and not might, but will kill every last one of you if you just slug away that people start first looking at grapple or other out there alternatives. Grapple now stops movement, and allows you to move a creature with you (costing double your normal movement) Cliffs, traps firepits etc? thank you very much! Its time to drag and drop. Grapple as an opening move and a second attack to knock prone means with no movement the victim is unable to stand and they attack at disadvantage and you and your associates gain advantage. (unless ranged, oops) This shift should alter an otherwise conclusive combat to in the balance again. Using a grapple and shove to prone an opponent on a mountain then using them as bobsled? (acrobatic checks to stay on) Thats not the way your antagonist wants to go out.
Wrestling was ridiculous in first or second as monsters didnt have physical stats so even a mage could wrestle just about anything in his weight class. In 3rd it shut people down hard but the contest of skills applied to monsters on hit (no automatic grapple and restrain) as well. It wasnt more complicated but combat maneuvers often required a to hit roll (against modified AC) and then a second contested roll which did slow combat sometimes. 4th, did not play, cant say. So 5th grapple and what they are used for.
No combat options need be considered if you can bully the enemy with overmatched strength. It is when your opponent is better than you in every way and not might, but will kill every last one of you if you just slug away that people start first looking at grapple or other out there alternatives. Grapple now stops movement, and allows you to move a creature with you (costing double your normal movement) Cliffs, traps firepits etc? thank you very much! Its time to drag and drop. Grapple as an opening move and a second attack to knock prone means with no movement the victim is unable to stand and they attack at disadvantage and you and your associates gain advantage. (unless ranged, oops) This shift should alter an otherwise conclusive combat to in the balance again. Using a grapple and shove to prone an opponent on a mountain then using them as bobsled? (acrobatic checks to stay on) Thats not the way your antagonist wants to go out.
Or you can knock them prone with the first attack instead of grappling. It's the same skill check and you save an attack.
Obviously not when you want to use the creature as a sled.
The one thing I’ve noticed is that all of the responses so far have been about what you can when grappling, not when being grappled. From everything I’ve read, if you’re on the receiving end, you’re screwed. Again, all you can do is try and get out. And that in and of itself seems to ignore one of the points of running a monk.
Unless there’s something I’m missing, and if so, please link it so I can see what you’re talking about.
Update: I apologize. I’ve reread the thread and I’m seeing what you’re talking about. Which leads to the next question: what condition does a garrote apply if the victim rolls their save and gets their hand in between the cord and their neck?
Rev, when grappled (not restrained) the monks move is 0 but they can punch away unimpaired. if the target is downed, problem solved. If they flurry stun, it ends the grapple, if they push the opponent away with a shove action the grapple ends, and so with the flurry push back option.
When restrained they have disadvantage to hit so that flurry looks less appetising unless its a large target of unarmoured flesh. Grapple contesting is a skill check, and skill checks are not affected by restraining - by rules, but disbelief may require it - So as long as you took athletics or more likely acrobatics then you should be ready for that on your first attack and if necessary to your survival your second as well if the first fails (if you are 5th and have two attacks)
With the exception of Rogues (or the odd bard) who has expertise, Monks will have the highest dexterity of a class and with acrobatics will be the best at denying or escaping a grapple. Sure expertise means the rogue could escape easier but they only have one attack to try, you have two so the mechanics make monks the better bet to avoid grapples. Its just not laid out.
Are you playing a monk, and were grappled / a lot / killed because of it or was this a thought exercise in advance of playing one?
Update: I apologize. I’ve reread the thread and I’m seeing what you’re talking about. Which leads to the next question: what condition does a garrote apply if the victim rolls their save and gets their hand in between the cord and their neck?
That seems more or less up to the DM. Garroting isn't exactly an 'official rules' attack. So that's a house rule thing thru and thru. I would say since they made the save they escape the garrote and therefore aren't being grappled or restrained. Seems rather Overpowered to have a creature succeed their saving throw yet still have them grappled or restrained.
((maybe in 3.5 the edition of excessive rules may have a Garrote ruling?))
Sadly weapon rules are under developed, no thats unfair, they have been simplified and minimised in effect. Nets and lances are the only two that have non standard abilities in the PHB, lance gives disadvantage to hit in 5' and no advantage whatsoever when you charge! And nets which have another assigned grapple / escape mechanic. It would be nice to see a future supplement expanding some weapons available to use and with non standard effects.
Garrotes specifically are a problem because they are almost impossible to use 'as intended' Any rules would be complete houserule and you wouldnt even be proficient in them because they dont appear in the PHB (sad but this applies to any wibbly monster weapon in the MM and elsewhere, no spiked chain, spiked shield, double shield, pincer staff proficiencies for players. If you want game mechanics here's a start. Your opponent must be surprised and have a throat you can constrict with your garrote in reach. On a success you deal 1 damage (finesse) and if you have sneak damage it is applied. The target is automatically grappled/restrained and whilst grappled can not speak or breathe. Every following round they remain grappled your damage dealt is also applied as a con save, for every point the victim fails by, the the number of rounds of breath remaining to them is also reduced. Any effect that would normally break the grapple ends this - alternatively and desperately the garrote could be cut (ac 20 - its in the wound if its wire and 5 hits) with a slashing weapon but also deals the same amount of damage to the victim.
With the latest PHB errata, incapacitated creatures are auto-grappled and auto-shoved. That makes it possible for a monk to stun, then follow-up the next turn with both conditions using their attack and extra attack. When the stun fades at the end of that turn, the target will have to waste an action to contest the grapple or be stuck prone with disadvantage on all attacks.
[New] Grappling (p. 195). Before “If you succeed” in the second paragraph, the following sentence has been added: “You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated.” [New] Shoving a Creature (p. 196). In the last sentence of the second paragraph, “If you win the contest,” has been changed to “You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed,”
With the latest PHB errata, incapacitated creatures are auto-grappled and auto-shoved. That makes it possible for a monk to stun, then follow-up the next turn with both conditions using their attack and extra attack. When the stun fades at the end of that turn, the target will have to waste an action to contest the grapple or be stuck prone with disadvantage on all attacks.
Edited: Me not remembering Saves =/= ability checks
Regarding monks and grappling, one of my players is a monk, with low strength and high dex. She was complaining that her monk can't grapple effectively, due to her low strength. I've searched for, but haven't found, anything regarding this topic. Is there a work-around for monks grappling using dex instead of strength?
Regarding monks and grappling, one of my players is a monk, with low strength and high dex. She was complaining that her monk can't grapple effectively, due to her low strength. I've searched for, but haven't found, anything regarding this topic. Is there a work-around for monks grappling using dex instead of strength?
You could allow an acrobatics check instead. It's not RAW (or even RAI), but you are the DM and it's your universe. You get to rewrite the rules as you see fit.
You could allow an acrobatics check instead. It's not RAW (or even RAI), but you are the DM and it's your universe. You get to rewrite the rules as you see fit.
A more by-the-book solution would be to call for a Dexterity (Athletics) check.
Variant: Skills with Different Abilities
Normally, your proficiency in a skill applies only to a specific kind of ability check. Proficiency in Athletics, for example, usually applies to Strength checks. In some situations, though, your proficiency might reasonably apply to a different kind of check. In such cases, the DM might ask for a check using an unusual combination of ability and skill, or you might ask your DM if you can apply a proficiency to a different check. For example, if you have to swim from an offshore island to the mainland, your DM might call for a Constitution check to see if you have the stamina to make it that far. In this case, your DM might allow you to apply your proficiency in Athletics and ask for a Constitution (Athletics) check. So if you're proficient in Athletics, you apply your proficiency bonus to the Constitution check just as you would normally do for a Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, when your half-orc barbarian uses a display of raw strength to intimidate an enemy, your DM might ask for a Strength (Intimidation) check, even though Intimidation is normally associated with Charisma.
On the player side, taking a single level in Barbarian or Rogue or taking the Prodigy feat is an easy way to bump up weak Athletics checks.
That said, very few monsters have proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics checks and since you can't grapple monsters more than 1 size larger than you, you're not going to run into things with super high strength modifiers. So in practice the grappling rules are skewed towards players and she probably could do just fine even with a low Strength score. Personally I don't use the official grappling rules at all because of how easily players can stack the odds in their favor.
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Again its not a Melee attack, its a special melee attack that on your ACTION can replace a normal melee attack. Just cause your ignoring the rules doesn't change the rules. The first sentence of grapple says it.
When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple.
Yes I see your confusion - its not a thing, its the thing thats not a thing.
Rehashing - You can disallow grapple reactions / AoO but thats not the point - this thread was about monks and grappling and as grappling requires a hand (or flexible appendage/possibly weapon) and not a melee weapon free what other classes do you know that would have a hand weaponless in melee? What other class would if someone tried to run from them without disengaging and so asking for trouble have the first thought of sweeping the leg or grabbing them by the scruff of the neck? Weapon disarming is not a thing in 5th - and worse you cant really included it without making the battlemasters unique ability to do so lesser. Including Grapple / Trips for reactions should be allowed or not on the assessment that it is either fun and good for the game or not, no other reason.
What other class would like to expertly use grapple as a way to prevent escape or set up mad combos? Raging barbarians, any variation of fighter/ranger/paladin with the Dueling fighting style, rogues or bards with expertise in Athletics. Monks are still the masters of unarmed combat however, because they have a lot of options to both control their foes and deal decent damage with unarmed attacks and ki points, not least of which is the already mentioned Stunning Strike.
If you want to discuss adding or changing the rules because you feel it's more fun for the game, you'll probably find more support in the Homebrew & House Rules section. Rules as written: Grappling and shoving both specify that you have to use the Attack action, so they are not available for your opportunity attack.
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
Agreed Twooshort, but I was answering this thread and offering a work around to what the thread poster felt was a deficit to the monk. Regarding your fighter+ group of 'grapplers' all would require them to abandon a two handed weapon option or a shield option, it would not with a monk. If you really wanted to take advantage of a barbarians rage str check adv the player would probably go barb / MC monk.
Multiclass seems like the the wrong suggestion for this particular optimization. Why miss out on amazing high-level benefits of either class when it is easy (and reversible) to simply switch to a one-handed weapon if the situation calls for having a free hand for increased tactical flexibility (grappling, climbing, or carrying heavy stuff)?
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
Ah but then we are back to grapple reactions - and monks - they are the class likely to have a free hand ready for that moment, others could choose to switch on their turn. but couldnt simply react and thats the point about monks, they are ready to wrestle, all the time.
It doesnt seem that monks specifically get the shaft from grapple but that grapple as a whole is meh. From what i gather it was way more complicated in earlier editions ((as was everything))
So IMO Grappling is meh compared to knocking something prone or stunning it....
Wrestling was ridiculous in first or second as monsters didnt have physical stats so even a mage could wrestle just about anything in his weight class. In 3rd it shut people down hard but the contest of skills applied to monsters on hit (no automatic grapple and restrain) as well. It wasnt more complicated but combat maneuvers often required a to hit roll (against modified AC) and then a second contested roll which did slow combat sometimes. 4th, did not play, cant say. So 5th grapple and what they are used for.
No combat options need be considered if you can bully the enemy with overmatched strength. It is when your opponent is better than you in every way and not might, but will kill every last one of you if you just slug away that people start first looking at grapple or other out there alternatives. Grapple now stops movement, and allows you to move a creature with you (costing double your normal movement) Cliffs, traps firepits etc? thank you very much! Its time to drag and drop. Grapple as an opening move and a second attack to knock prone means with no movement the victim is unable to stand and they attack at disadvantage and you and your associates gain advantage. (unless ranged, oops) This shift should alter an otherwise conclusive combat to in the balance again. Using a grapple and shove to prone an opponent on a mountain then using them as bobsled? (acrobatic checks to stay on) Thats not the way your antagonist wants to go out.
Or you can knock them prone with the first attack instead of grappling. It's the same skill check and you save an attack.
Obviously not when you want to use the creature as a sled.
The one thing I’ve noticed is that all of the responses so far have been about what you can when grappling, not when being grappled. From everything I’ve read, if you’re on the receiving end, you’re screwed. Again, all you can do is try and get out. And that in and of itself seems to ignore one of the points of running a monk.
Unless there’s something I’m missing, and if so, please link it so I can see what you’re talking about.
Update: I apologize. I’ve reread the thread and I’m seeing what you’re talking about. Which leads to the next question: what condition does a garrote apply if the victim rolls their save and gets their hand in between the cord and their neck?
Rev, when grappled (not restrained) the monks move is 0 but they can punch away unimpaired. if the target is downed, problem solved. If they flurry stun, it ends the grapple, if they push the opponent away with a shove action the grapple ends, and so with the flurry push back option.
When restrained they have disadvantage to hit so that flurry looks less appetising unless its a large target of unarmoured flesh. Grapple contesting is a skill check, and skill checks are not affected by restraining - by rules, but disbelief may require it - So as long as you took athletics or more likely acrobatics then you should be ready for that on your first attack and if necessary to your survival your second as well if the first fails (if you are 5th and have two attacks)
With the exception of Rogues (or the odd bard) who has expertise, Monks will have the highest dexterity of a class and with acrobatics will be the best at denying or escaping a grapple. Sure expertise means the rogue could escape easier but they only have one attack to try, you have two so the mechanics make monks the better bet to avoid grapples. Its just not laid out.
Are you playing a monk, and were grappled / a lot / killed because of it or was this a thought exercise in advance of playing one?
That seems more or less up to the DM. Garroting isn't exactly an 'official rules' attack. So that's a house rule thing thru and thru. I would say since they made the save they escape the garrote and therefore aren't being grappled or restrained. Seems rather Overpowered to have a creature succeed their saving throw yet still have them grappled or restrained.
((maybe in 3.5 the edition of excessive rules may have a Garrote ruling?))
Sadly weapon rules are under developed, no thats unfair, they have been simplified and minimised in effect. Nets and lances are the only two that have non standard abilities in the PHB, lance gives disadvantage to hit in 5' and no advantage whatsoever when you charge! And nets which have another assigned grapple / escape mechanic. It would be nice to see a future supplement expanding some weapons available to use and with non standard effects.
Garrotes specifically are a problem because they are almost impossible to use 'as intended' Any rules would be complete houserule and you wouldnt even be proficient in them because they dont appear in the PHB (sad but this applies to any wibbly monster weapon in the MM and elsewhere, no spiked chain, spiked shield, double shield, pincer staff proficiencies for players. If you want game mechanics here's a start. Your opponent must be surprised and have a throat you can constrict with your garrote in reach. On a success you deal 1 damage (finesse) and if you have sneak damage it is applied. The target is automatically grappled/restrained and whilst grappled can not speak or breathe. Every following round they remain grappled your damage dealt is also applied as a con save, for every point the victim fails by, the the number of rounds of breath remaining to them is also reduced. Any effect that would normally break the grapple ends this - alternatively and desperately the garrote could be cut (ac 20 - its in the wound if its wire and 5 hits) with a slashing weapon but also deals the same amount of damage to the victim.
With the latest PHB errata, incapacitated creatures are auto-grappled and auto-shoved. That makes it possible for a monk to stun, then follow-up the next turn with both conditions using their attack and extra attack. When the stun fades at the end of that turn, the target will have to waste an action to contest the grapple or be stuck prone with disadvantage on all attacks.
Now thats a significant alteration, do you have the link for that one please Ritorix?
http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/errata-november-2018
[New] Grappling (p. 195). Before “If you succeed” in the second paragraph, the following sentence has been added: “You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated.”
[New] Shoving a Creature (p. 196). In the last sentence of the second paragraph, “If you win the contest,” has been changed to “You succeed automatically if the target is incapacitated. If you succeed,”
I am one with the Force. The Force is with me.
Edited: Me not remembering Saves =/= ability checks
Regarding monks and grappling, one of my players is a monk, with low strength and high dex. She was complaining that her monk can't grapple effectively, due to her low strength. I've searched for, but haven't found, anything regarding this topic. Is there a work-around for monks grappling using dex instead of strength?
You could allow an acrobatics check instead. It's not RAW (or even RAI), but you are the DM and it's your universe. You get to rewrite the rules as you see fit.
A more by-the-book solution would be to call for a Dexterity (Athletics) check.
On the player side, taking a single level in Barbarian or Rogue or taking the Prodigy feat is an easy way to bump up weak Athletics checks.
That said, very few monsters have proficiency in Athletics or Acrobatics checks and since you can't grapple monsters more than 1 size larger than you, you're not going to run into things with super high strength modifiers. So in practice the grappling rules are skewed towards players and she probably could do just fine even with a low Strength score. Personally I don't use the official grappling rules at all because of how easily players can stack the odds in their favor.