I would say that everything in the "Elemental Disciplines " list is subject to the "Spells and Ki Points" table. That would be my interpretation of RAI.
Someone could just as easily come along and say that abilities that don't actually link a spell are not subject to the Ki maximum table.
If I was the DM I’d let it happen. But, of course, that pretty much blows all of your Ki points in one round and you’ll be pretty worthless after that round. Sure, you might one shot the BBEG, but you might also only hurt his body guard while he casts Heal.
Here's the problem. unless I'm remembering wrong at the moment. The way that fist of the Broken air is written it is your action and I believe the power actually explicitly calls it out as such.. It does not simply replace or augment an attack (This is important with a 4 elements monk because a couple do modify regular attacks). So you'd max out at 7d10 damage which can still be a pretty hefty hit. Though like Tim said even if it were possible you'd blow all your ki in a single turn and just hope it was enough to kill something nasty before your out of tricks which at the highest levels there is a good chance it won't against the targets you'd actually want to do it to.
And Wtfdndad you wouldn't have to worry about that. I may be slightly misremembering the wording but i'm pretty sure it says all elemental disciplines that have a scaling effect are capped by the chart with the power you get at level 5 but also talks about powers that are effectively creating spells as the monk can us them as well. But even if it doesn't There are only 3 disciplines that don't specifically cast spells of some kind or don't have specific set effects that don't scale and all three of them are dangerous sinkholes that will quickly blow all of your Ki if your not careful. Unless you really really need that extra damage they tend to be far better used minimally buffed for the extra effects that they add onto attacks. Specially with the way some of those effects synergize with other things.
“Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, *provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level*, as burning hands does. The spell’s level increases by 1 for each additional ki point you spend. For example, if you are a 5th-level monk and use Sweeping Cinder Strike to cast burning hands, you can spend 3 ki points to cast it as a 2nd-level spell (the discipline’s base cost of 2 ki points plus 1).
The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a *spell* in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the *Spells and Ki Points table*.”
I’m under the impression that it only applies to spells by intention as well with that emphasis.
And Fateless, this would be a two-round effect. Stunning lasts until the END of your next turn. So you stun then on round one with one of your three Martial Arts attacks... and the FoUA attack can come the round afterwards. Definitely wouldn’t be a one-round assault.
It just unlocks a lot of potential I hadn’t thought of for the class.
I figured you would read it that way, as would some others. That is why I posted my response exactly as I did, lol.
I think most people would follow logic to include the idea that all abilities were affected by the Ki cap table but, if you think adding 17d10 makes sense and your DM agrees, you go ahead and do that.
“Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, *provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level*, as burning hands does. The spell’s level increases by 1 for each additional ki point you spend. For example, if you are a 5th-level monk and use Sweeping Cinder Strike to cast burning hands, you can spend 3 ki points to cast it as a 2nd-level spell (the discipline’s base cost of 2 ki points plus 1).
The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a *spell* in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the *Spells and Ki Points table*.”
I’m under the impression that it only applies to spells by intention as well with that emphasis.
And Fateless, this would be a two-round effect. Stunning lasts until the END of your next turn. So you stun then on round one with one of your three Martial Arts attacks... and the FoUA attack can come the round afterwards. Definitely wouldn’t be a one-round assault.
It just unlocks a lot of potential I hadn’t thought of for the class.
No. All it is is an attempt to game the system and power game as much as possible. Which if that's what you want. More power to you. Against a smart DM it's not as useful as your hoping and the game doesn't really need it. You might actually have more fun if you find other ways to look at the game.
That’s not the case at all - the interpretation of the rules is obviously a discussion to be had with a DM but just because you think something should be interpreted some way doesn’t mean that another’s interpretation is somehow less fun or that the “game doesn’t need it”. Play the game how you want but your personal judgments are unnecessary.
That’s not the case at all - the interpretation of the rules is obviously a discussion to be had with a DM but just because you think something should be interpreted some way doesn’t mean that another’s interpretation is somehow less fun or that the “game doesn’t need it”. Play the game how you want but your personal judgments are unnecessary.
I'd be real interested in hearing your explanation of how an entire thread devoted to maximizing the damage of an ability in order to OHKO enemies is not the definition of "power gaming".
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
That’s not the case at all - the interpretation of the rules is obviously a discussion to be had with a DM but just because you think something should be interpreted some way doesn’t mean that another’s interpretation is somehow less fun or that the “game doesn’t need it”. Play the game how you want but your personal judgments are unnecessary.
I'd be real interested in hearing your explanation of how an entire thread devoted to maximizing the damage of an ability in order to OHKO enemies is not the definition of "power gaming".
That's half it's problem. AT the level that he's trying to pull this off. It can't actually 1 hit kill anything your going to actually want to do so with it. First of all as he said it takes two turns to actually pull off (Requiring a setup turn that is going to spend at least 1 of his ki if not 2 or 3 or more). And Fist of Unbroken Air has to be done on it's own turn costing 2 Ki all on it's own. And he's also assuming that whatever he's doing it on doesn't just have legendary resistances to block the stun setup. It's wasted on the things that you could reliably do it on which are the cannon fodder mooks of the fight.
That’s not the case at all - the interpretation of the rules is obviously a discussion to be had with a DM but just because you think something should be interpreted some way doesn’t mean that another’s interpretation is somehow less fun or that the “game doesn’t need it”. Play the game how you want but your personal judgments are unnecessary.
I'd be real interested in hearing your explanation of how an entire thread devoted to maximizing the damage of an ability in order to OHKO enemies is not the definition of "power gaming".
That's half it's problem. AT the level that he's trying to pull this off. It can't actually 1 hit kill anything your going to actually want to do so with it. First of all as he said it takes two turns to actually pull off (Requiring a setup turn that is going to spend at least 1 of his ki if not 2 or 3 or more). And Fist of Unbroken Air has to be done on it's own turn costing 2 Ki all on it's own. And he's also assuming that whatever he's doing it on doesn't just have legendary resistances to block the stun setup. It's wasted on the things that you could reliably do it on which are the cannon fodder mooks of the fight.
A group of CR9-11 monsters would be a hard/deadly encounter and this tactic could nuke 1 of those. Just saying.
CR 9-11 monsters aren't nearly as difficult once your level 20 unless there are several of them. And then again Your back in the position of 1 hitting just one of them isn't going to change your odds much.
And if you spend all 20 of your Ki against just one of those targets. What exactly are you going to do against the rest Might I ask? Because it seems there might be better ways to spend Ki.
That’s not the case at all - the interpretation of the rules is obviously a discussion to be had with a DM but just because you think something should be interpreted some way doesn’t mean that another’s interpretation is somehow less fun or that the “game doesn’t need it”. Play the game how you want but your personal judgments are unnecessary.
I'd be real interested in hearing your explanation of how an entire thread devoted to maximizing the damage of an ability in order to OHKO enemies is not the definition of "power gaming".
That's half it's problem. AT the level that he's trying to pull this off. It can't actually 1 hit kill anything your going to actually want to do so with it. First of all as he said it takes two turns to actually pull off (Requiring a setup turn that is going to spend at least 1 of his ki if not 2 or 3 or more). And Fist of Unbroken Air has to be done on it's own turn costing 2 Ki all on it's own. And he's also assuming that whatever he's doing it on doesn't just have legendary resistances to block the stun setup. It's wasted on the things that you could reliably do it on which are the cannon fodder mooks of the fight.
Lol. Sounds like you’re taking this to a whole new level of “power gaming”. I was just marvelling at a synergy I didn’t notice and calculating a silly number in my head, you’re here trying to find ways to apply this to the game and how underpowered it would be because you can’t one-hit kill things.
Geez guys, it’s just a synergy in the class that I thought maybe some people hadn’t thought of. Is it niche? Yes. Is it overpowered? No.
That’s not the case at all - the interpretation of the rules is obviously a discussion to be had with a DM but just because you think something should be interpreted some way doesn’t mean that another’s interpretation is somehow less fun or that the “game doesn’t need it”. Play the game how you want but your personal judgments are unnecessary.
I'd be real interested in hearing your explanation of how an entire thread devoted to maximizing the damage of an ability in order to OHKO enemies is not the definition of "power gaming".
That's half it's problem. AT the level that he's trying to pull this off. It can't actually 1 hit kill anything your going to actually want to do so with it. First of all as he said it takes two turns to actually pull off (Requiring a setup turn that is going to spend at least 1 of his ki if not 2 or 3 or more). And Fist of Unbroken Air has to be done on it's own turn costing 2 Ki all on it's own. And he's also assuming that whatever he's doing it on doesn't just have legendary resistances to block the stun setup. It's wasted on the things that you could reliably do it on which are the cannon fodder mooks of the fight.
Lol. Sounds like you’re taking this to a whole new level of “power gaming”. I was just marvelling at a synergy I didn’t notice and calculating a silly number in my head, you’re here trying to find ways to apply this to the game and how underpowered it would be because you can’t one-hit kill things.
Geez guys, it’s just a synergy in the class that I thought maybe some people hadn’t thought of. Is it niche? Yes. Is it overpowered? No.
I'm not trying anything. These details just stick out to me. I've had to deal with a number of power gamers in my games and I was young once and dealt with things like 3/3.5 which basically demanded power gaming tactics just to be functional by it's own balance numbers.
If you want to counter or combat such things you have to know how the numbers work and how they work together. You also have to be able to show how numbers in a vacuum don't equate to numbers when actually playing the game and be able to point them out because a lot of people make posts like yours pointing out "synergies" and how to get the most out of one or more little details as they see it.
That was a very long winded way to say what I already said as the first response.
In a nutshell, if you chose to ignore that MOST people would rule that this ability is limited to Ki points per the table specifically included in this subclass' description, you could use the ability in the way originally described by the OP. That would be "how to get the most out one or more little details as THEY see it".
That was a very long winded way to say what I already said as the first response.
In a nutshell, if you chose to ignore that MOST people would rule that this ability is limited to Ki points per the table specifically included in this subclass' description, you could use the ability in the way originally described by the OP. That would be "how to get the most out one or more little details as THEY see it".
Most people would rule this RAI, with no backup to the intended use of that table?
Because under the subheading “CASTING ELEMENTAL SPELLS” it says:
”*Some* elemental disciplines allow you to cast spells.”
and then...
“you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level, as burning hands does.“
and then...
“The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a spell in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the Spells and Ki Points table.”
This is probably the *clearest* I’ve seen RAW and RAI in agreement - Fist of Unbroken Air has no spell equivalent, has nothing similar to a Higher Level cast, and therefore is not even implied to be covered under the subheading “CASTING ELEMENTAL SPELLS”. If you rule this to mean FoUA is limited by that table I’d actually be pretty sure you’d be interpreting the rules wrong and so would the “majority”.
And speaking on Intention: “Elemental Disciplines are magical, as the text states. A non-spell is only considered a spell if its text says it is.” - Jeremy Crawford.
I hesitate to ask what other rules you’ve limited because of what seems to be a very clear ruling...?
The talks about gaming the system are weird. Is it powerful? Sure. But Open Hand monks can do 6 uses of their instant-death feature (3 ki points for a Con save: succeed you take 10d10 necro and fail you instantly die) every Short Rest. So the whole no cap on the unbroken air fist thing is not a big deal.
If you successfully stun enemy spending 1 ki, the next turn you get to use 19 ki for the super fist, which is 20d10, a max of 200 damage and average 110. Powerful, and now you're out of KI and need to be 20th level for this figure.
The Open Hand monk can use 3 ki points, just 3, to use Quivering Palm. AT 20th level they can do this 6 times, with 2 ki spare for flurries, etc. That's 6 Con saves, and if they fail a single 1 they immediately drop to 0 hp. Since enemies rarely get death saves in most cases this is an instant KO. Even if they succeed all 6 that is 60d10 damage, or 600 max damage or average 330 damage.
So WoFE Monk spends all 6 ki needing the target to fail 1 Con Save and even if they do you're looking at average 110 damage using all the ki you have while a WoOH Monk makes a target do 6 saves and even if they succeed on all it's average 330 damage, while fail on any 1 is instant KO AND the monk would be left with 2 ki left over.
So remind me again how "gaming the system" it is to let WoFE have no cap on the unbroken air thing (which is RAW/RAI anyway)? I mean, seriously underpowered compared to WoOH so who is it really worth giving a shit? Let them use it, no big deal.
I used to think Wot4E was underpowered but the synergy between these skills is ridiculous.
If you have a successful Stunning Strike (1 Ki point), the opponent is Stunned.
Stunned means you automatically fail Strength saving throws.
Fist of Unbroken Air - 3d10 damage, Str save for half (2 Ki points). +1d10 damage for every extra Ki point spent.
Maximized at Level 20, this is:
1d10+5 damage Martial Arts *3 Attacks* (ave 31.5)
3d10 damage for base FoUA (ave 16.5)
17d10 damage for additional FoUA Ki points (ave 93.5)
For a total of 141.5 damage average (min 38, max 245).
... every short rest.
This would become a RAW vs RAI dispute.
I would say that everything in the "Elemental Disciplines " list is subject to the "Spells and Ki Points" table. That would be my interpretation of RAI.
Someone could just as easily come along and say that abilities that don't actually link a spell are not subject to the Ki maximum table.
If I was the DM I’d let it happen. But, of course, that pretty much blows all of your Ki points in one round and you’ll be pretty worthless after that round. Sure, you might one shot the BBEG, but you might also only hurt his body guard while he casts Heal.
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Here's the problem. unless I'm remembering wrong at the moment. The way that fist of the Broken air is written it is your action and I believe the power actually explicitly calls it out as such.. It does not simply replace or augment an attack (This is important with a 4 elements monk because a couple do modify regular attacks). So you'd max out at 7d10 damage which can still be a pretty hefty hit. Though like Tim said even if it were possible you'd blow all your ki in a single turn and just hope it was enough to kill something nasty before your out of tricks which at the highest levels there is a good chance it won't against the targets you'd actually want to do it to.
And Wtfdndad you wouldn't have to worry about that. I may be slightly misremembering the wording but i'm pretty sure it says all elemental disciplines that have a scaling effect are capped by the chart with the power you get at level 5 but also talks about powers that are effectively creating spells as the monk can us them as well. But even if it doesn't There are only 3 disciplines that don't specifically cast spells of some kind or don't have specific set effects that don't scale and all three of them are dangerous sinkholes that will quickly blow all of your Ki if your not careful. Unless you really really need that extra damage they tend to be far better used minimally buffed for the extra effects that they add onto attacks. Specially with the way some of those effects synergize with other things.
“Once you reach 5th level in this class, you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, *provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level*, as burning hands does. The spell’s level increases by 1 for each additional ki point you spend. For example, if you are a 5th-level monk and use Sweeping Cinder Strike to cast burning hands, you can spend 3 ki points to cast it as a 2nd-level spell (the discipline’s base cost of 2 ki points plus 1).
The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a *spell* in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the *Spells and Ki Points table*.”
I’m under the impression that it only applies to spells by intention as well with that emphasis.
And Fateless, this would be a two-round effect. Stunning lasts until the END of your next turn. So you stun then on round one with one of your three Martial Arts attacks... and the FoUA attack can come the round afterwards. Definitely wouldn’t be a one-round assault.
It just unlocks a lot of potential I hadn’t thought of for the class.
I figured you would read it that way, as would some others. That is why I posted my response exactly as I did, lol.
I think most people would follow logic to include the idea that all abilities were affected by the Ki cap table but, if you think adding 17d10 makes sense and your DM agrees, you go ahead and do that.
Of course this is all assuming you are able to successfully stun the target.
No. All it is is an attempt to game the system and power game as much as possible. Which if that's what you want. More power to you. Against a smart DM it's not as useful as your hoping and the game doesn't really need it. You might actually have more fun if you find other ways to look at the game.
“Game the system”, “power game”?
That’s not the case at all - the interpretation of the rules is obviously a discussion to be had with a DM but just because you think something should be interpreted some way doesn’t mean that another’s interpretation is somehow less fun or that the “game doesn’t need it”. Play the game how you want but your personal judgments are unnecessary.
I'd be real interested in hearing your explanation of how an entire thread devoted to maximizing the damage of an ability in order to OHKO enemies is not the definition of "power gaming".
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
That's half it's problem. AT the level that he's trying to pull this off. It can't actually 1 hit kill anything your going to actually want to do so with it. First of all as he said it takes two turns to actually pull off (Requiring a setup turn that is going to spend at least 1 of his ki if not 2 or 3 or more). And Fist of Unbroken Air has to be done on it's own turn costing 2 Ki all on it's own. And he's also assuming that whatever he's doing it on doesn't just have legendary resistances to block the stun setup. It's wasted on the things that you could reliably do it on which are the cannon fodder mooks of the fight.
A group of CR9-11 monsters would be a hard/deadly encounter and this tactic could nuke 1 of those. Just saying.
I'd probably just take Cone of Cold and for 6 Ki, have a chance to do 8d8 to around 80 targets, lol.
Sure just go "excuse me, can I get the 80 of you to group together in a roughly cone shape? Thanks."
It's not impossible, but if you get to hit more than 10, call it a good day.
CR 9-11 monsters aren't nearly as difficult once your level 20 unless there are several of them. And then again Your back in the position of 1 hitting just one of them isn't going to change your odds much.
And if you spend all 20 of your Ki against just one of those targets. What exactly are you going to do against the rest Might I ask? Because it seems there might be better ways to spend Ki.
Lol. Sounds like you’re taking this to a whole new level of “power gaming”. I was just marvelling at a synergy I didn’t notice and calculating a silly number in my head, you’re here trying to find ways to apply this to the game and how underpowered it would be because you can’t one-hit kill things.
Geez guys, it’s just a synergy in the class that I thought maybe some people hadn’t thought of. Is it niche? Yes. Is it overpowered? No.
I'm not trying anything. These details just stick out to me. I've had to deal with a number of power gamers in my games and I was young once and dealt with things like 3/3.5 which basically demanded power gaming tactics just to be functional by it's own balance numbers.
If you want to counter or combat such things you have to know how the numbers work and how they work together. You also have to be able to show how numbers in a vacuum don't equate to numbers when actually playing the game and be able to point them out because a lot of people make posts like yours pointing out "synergies" and how to get the most out of one or more little details as they see it.
That was a very long winded way to say what I already said as the first response.
In a nutshell, if you chose to ignore that MOST people would rule that this ability is limited to Ki points per the table specifically included in this subclass' description, you could use the ability in the way originally described by the OP. That would be "how to get the most out one or more little details as THEY see it".
Most people would rule this RAI, with no backup to the intended use of that table?
Because under the subheading “CASTING ELEMENTAL SPELLS” it says:
”*Some* elemental disciplines allow you to cast spells.”
and then...
“you can spend additional ki points to increase the level of an elemental discipline spell that you cast, provided that the spell has an enhanced effect at a higher level, as burning hands does.“
and then...
“The maximum number of ki points you can spend to cast a spell in this way (including its base ki point cost and any additional ki points you spend to increase its level) is determined by your monk level, as shown in the Spells and Ki Points table.”
This is probably the *clearest* I’ve seen RAW and RAI in agreement - Fist of Unbroken Air has no spell equivalent, has nothing similar to a Higher Level cast, and therefore is not even implied to be covered under the subheading “CASTING ELEMENTAL SPELLS”. If you rule this to mean FoUA is limited by that table I’d actually be pretty sure you’d be interpreting the rules wrong and so would the “majority”.
And speaking on Intention: “Elemental Disciplines are magical, as the text states. A non-spell is only considered a spell if its text says it is.” - Jeremy Crawford.
I hesitate to ask what other rules you’ve limited because of what seems to be a very clear ruling...?
The talks about gaming the system are weird. Is it powerful? Sure. But Open Hand monks can do 6 uses of their instant-death feature (3 ki points for a Con save: succeed you take 10d10 necro and fail you instantly die) every Short Rest. So the whole no cap on the unbroken air fist thing is not a big deal.
If you successfully stun enemy spending 1 ki, the next turn you get to use 19 ki for the super fist, which is 20d10, a max of 200 damage and average 110. Powerful, and now you're out of KI and need to be 20th level for this figure.
The Open Hand monk can use 3 ki points, just 3, to use Quivering Palm. AT 20th level they can do this 6 times, with 2 ki spare for flurries, etc. That's 6 Con saves, and if they fail a single 1 they immediately drop to 0 hp. Since enemies rarely get death saves in most cases this is an instant KO. Even if they succeed all 6 that is 60d10 damage, or 600 max damage or average 330 damage.
So WoFE Monk spends all 6 ki needing the target to fail 1 Con Save and even if they do you're looking at average 110 damage using all the ki you have while a WoOH Monk makes a target do 6 saves and even if they succeed on all it's average 330 damage, while fail on any 1 is instant KO AND the monk would be left with 2 ki left over.
So remind me again how "gaming the system" it is to let WoFE have no cap on the unbroken air thing (which is RAW/RAI anyway)? I mean, seriously underpowered compared to WoOH so who is it really worth giving a shit? Let them use it, no big deal.
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