Let's remind that a monk is first and foremost a fighter-like class. It is quite normal to have a very limited access to spells (or spell-like abilities).
That's true, though I believe the theory of this is that the other Monastic Traditions supplement that aspect of the monk, while the Way of the Four Elements actually replaces that aspect. Think about it, you are burning through your ki points with this feature that does nothing to actually supplement your melee abilities (with the exception of Fangs of the Fire Snake).
Way of the Open Hand Open Hand Technique allows you to knock a target prone, push it up to 15 feet, or make it so it can't take a reaction when you use your Flurry of Blows, all without expending more ki points. Wholeness of Body lets you heal yourself, again without expending ki points. Tranquility gives you the sanctuary spell, without spending ki points. Quivering Palm is the only feature of an Open Hand monk that requires you to spend ki points (3), but it does it when you use a melee attack and either kills the target or deals 55 (10d10) damage. For reference: Breath of Winter (the highest damage dealing ability) requires double the ki points (6) and only deals 20 (8d8) on a failed save and 10 (4d8) on a successful one, granted that's AoE damage, but it requires twice as many ki points and doesn't have a save-or-die mechanic.
Way of Shadow Shadow Arts gives you the ability to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, and silence for 2 ki points, which are/can be far more beneficial than the ONE ability you get from Four Elements. Shadow Step allows you to travel 60 feet and gives you advantage on your melee attack all without expending ki points. Cloak of Shadows gives you free casts of invisibility so long as you aren't in bright light. And Opportunist lets you get free hits against an enemy.
Both of these traditions help you make better melee attacks and give you benefits that don't require you to use your ki points. All of the Way of the Four Elements abilities require you to spend your ki points, and again only one of these abilities supplements your ability to deal melee damage in the form of a 10 foot reach; which can be a hindrance since opportunity attacks only happen when they move out of your reach in 5e, not when they move out of a space you threaten. Situationally Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air can be good for controlling the battlefield, but So can Open Hand Technique or Shadow Step and neither of those abilities require you to spend more ki points (though Open Hand Technique is a part of Flurry of Blows, which DOES require Ki points).
And for those who are defending the tradition based on getting Elemental Attunement: it's just prestidigitation. Let's not act like it doesn't get replaced immediately at 6th level with literally ANYTHING else available.
Straight facts, I'm glad you expanded on what I said earlier. This is exactly what I was too lazy to expound upon in detail at the time.
Also, if you look at a WotFE Monk vs an Arcane Trickster Rogue or an Eldritch Knight Fighter, this is even clearer an example of an underpowered class.
Both get actual useful cantrips. At level 7 the Eldritch Knight gets to attack once and cast a cantrip in the same turn. At level 10 if he attacks first and THEN casts a spell the target has disadvantage on the saving throw. 1st turn Attack + True Strike. 2nd turn Attack (with advantage) + Poison Spray (target has disadvantage). Notice these abilities both help your ability to do what fighters do best (get into melee and deal damage) as well as the flavour of the class (mixing magic with melee).
Arcane Trickster is basically a magical version of the thief class, using spells to basically distract/help you do your roguish abilities. Mage Hand Legerdemain at 3rd and Versatile Trickster at 13th make it so your Mage Hand helps with your out of combat Rogue abilities (like pick pocketing, lock picking, and trap disarming) as well as your ability to Sneak Attack in battle. Magical Ambush + Spell Thief both help your abilities to cast spells (and spell thief is a VERY rogue-like ability and also plays on the rogue's ability to mimic spellcasting that has been a staple of the class since at least 2e).
Each of these two archetypes convert the basic melee class into a magical melee class without hindering their ability to do what they do best. They, like the WotFE monk aren't pure spellcasting classes, but their spells actually help them do their main roles better. Either of these two casting Blade Ward or True Strike is helping their ability to either tank/maneuver through enemies avoiding damage from opportunity attacks (as well as drawing out all reactions of those they do, or increase their chance to hit (and for the rogue, set up an automatic sneak attack). Add in spells like Blur, Shield, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Haste, etc... and you've got an even more potent melee than you otherwise would.
WotFE monk doesn't get any of that kind of utility. You start off with two disciplines (one cantrip and one spell) and end up with a maximum of 6 total. By 4th level Eldritch Knight has 2 cantrips and 4 spells known and Arcane Trickster has 3 cantrips and 4 spells known (granted one of which pretty much HAS to be Mage Hand or you're doing it wrong). By 17 (the last time WotFE gets a new discipline) EK has 3 cantrips and 11 spells known and AT has 4 cantrips and 11 spells known. So this isn't ANYTHING like other melee classes who pursue spellcasting. This is more like a nerfed blade-lock who doesn't get Eldritch Blast.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Let's remind that a monk is first and foremost a fighter-like class. It is quite normal to have a very limited access to spells (or spell-like abilities).
That's true, though I believe the theory of this is that the other Monastic Traditions supplement that aspect of the monk, while the Way of the Four Elements actually replaces that aspect. Think about it, you are burning through your ki points with this feature that does nothing to actually supplement your melee abilities (with the exception of Fangs of the Fire Snake).
Way of the Open Hand Open Hand Technique allows you to knock a target prone, push it up to 15 feet, or make it so it can't take a reaction when you use your Flurry of Blows, all without expending more ki points. Wholeness of Body lets you heal yourself, again without expending ki points. Tranquility gives you the sanctuary spell, without spending ki points. Quivering Palm is the only feature of an Open Hand monk that requires you to spend ki points (3), but it does it when you use a melee attack and either kills the target or deals 55 (10d10) damage. For reference: Breath of Winter (the highest damage dealing ability) requires double the ki points (6) and only deals 20 (8d8) on a failed save and 10 (4d8) on a successful one, granted that's AoE damage, but it requires twice as many ki points and doesn't have a save-or-die mechanic.
Way of Shadow Shadow Arts gives you the ability to cast darkness, darkvision, pass without trace, and silence for 2 ki points, which are/can be far more beneficial than the ONE ability you get from Four Elements. Shadow Step allows you to travel 60 feet and gives you advantage on your melee attack all without expending ki points. Cloak of Shadows gives you free casts of invisibility so long as you aren't in bright light. And Opportunist lets you get free hits against an enemy.
Both of these traditions help you make better melee attacks and give you benefits that don't require you to use your ki points. All of the Way of the Four Elements abilities require you to spend your ki points, and again only one of these abilities supplements your ability to deal melee damage in the form of a 10 foot reach; which can be a hindrance since opportunity attacks only happen when they move out of your reach in 5e, not when they move out of a space you threaten. Situationally Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air can be good for controlling the battlefield, but So can Open Hand Technique or Shadow Step and neither of those abilities require you to spend more ki points (though Open Hand Technique is a part of Flurry of Blows, which DOES require Ki points).
And for those who are defending the tradition based on getting Elemental Attunement: it's just prestidigitation. Let's not act like it doesn't get replaced immediately at 6th level with literally ANYTHING else available.
What you said it is right, no doubt. But the point is that, even for other classes, different archetypes are not meant to be balanced. Or, at least, they are not balanced for the same type of combat. Way of the open hand is clearly preferable when to have to fight a "big boss": Quivering Palm is a feature like no other. But quivering palm requires 2 actions to work.
in case of multiple monster, I prefer Way of the 4 Elements. I has spells of crowd control (fireball, wall of fire, wall of stone), has defensive spells (stokeskin...). water whip and unbroken air fists are really nice and do not cost much (3d10 of damage with 2 ki points + 1d10 per 1 more ki point spent). But most importantly: yes, these spells are really ki points consuming but the ki points are recovered every short rest. Wizards, Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters regain the spells after a long rest. So, imho, the "spell economy" is quite balanced.
To conclude: Open hand and 4 elements cannot be compared simply confronting the damage rolls of each feature. Each has its moment to shine in the battle.
What you said it is right, no doubt. But the point is that, even for other classes, different archetypes are not meant to be balanced. Or, at least, they are not balanced for the same type of combat. Way of the open hand is clearly preferable when to have to fight a "big boss": Quivering Palm is a feature like no other. But quivering palm requires 2 actions to work.
in case of multiple monster, I prefer Way of the 4 Elements. I has spells of crowd control (fireball, wall of fire, wall of stone), has defensive spells (stokeskin...). water whip and unbroken air fists are really nice and do not cost much (3d10 of damage with 2 ki points + 1d10 per 1 more ki point spent). But most importantly: yes, these spells are really ki points consuming but the ki points are recovered every short rest. Wizards, Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters regain the spells after a long rest. So, imho, the "spell economy" is quite balanced.
To conclude: Open hand and 4 elements cannot be compared simply confronting the damage rolls of each feature. Each has its moment to shine in the battle.
But looking at the other two classes, once you've run out of the ability to cast the spells, you still have ALL the core features of the class at your disposal. Once you've used all the ki points, you've now lost Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, Step of the Wind, the return missle portion of Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike, the reroll portion of Diamon Soul, and the Astral Projection portion of Empty Body.
As for Quivering Palm taking two actions: The first action is actually a free action as a part of a normal attack. So again, you are able to do it as a part of what the monk is normally able to do. The only two abilities that you can do as a part of being a monk in WotFE is Water Whip (as a bonus action) and Fangs of the Fire Snake (as a part of the attack action). Everything else requires your full action. Meanwhile, Open Hand Technique and Quivering Palm are free actions on top of normal monk attacking (though QP costs 3 ki to activate), Shadow Step is a bonus action, and Opportunist is a reaction.
As for the EK/AT vs WotFE in spell economy, you're ignoring the true power of the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster: the cantrips. The cantrips are usable anytime and can be far more useful depending on the situation: a blade warded defense fighter is going to soak up all the opportunity attacks while a True Strike rogue is going to get all the sneak attacks it wants.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Way of 4 elements has 2 or more "spells" that are ranged attacks (water whip and unbroken fists) and are quite powerful as ranged attacks.
And again, not in every combat he/she has to use the spells, only when needed.
Just saying that it is clear to me that Open hand is more powerful in single-combat, but 4 Elements has a wider spectrum of things he/she can do and can be very useful in some situations.
I mean, any spellcasting class with access to cantrips has ranged attack spells. In fact, besides River of Hungry Flame, EK and AT have access to all the same spells that WotFE monk does (just from the Spellcasting ability) in addition to all of their other archetype features. The monk just gets the spells 2 levels before them (with no extra archetype feature).
The difference is that those classes have much more variation in their spells and abilities than WotFE.
Yes, it's clear that WotFE has more AoE and control abilities than Open Hand (though I'd argue Shadow has just as much control, if not more). But when compared to other melee caster archetypes, it falls horribly short in all aspects.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I personally really enjoy the fantasy of playing the Avatar, but as I keep playing my Monk ( level 10 now) it gets more apparent to me that I am a little ****** compared to the other Ways.
Both in damage and utility the Ki costs seem a bit up there. Most of it comes down to the very very limited about of Disciplines the game allows you . Yes, it would be broken to have all however I think a different flavor spell then Prestidigitation would go a long way.
But that is my opinion what do you guys think?
It's mechanically pretty unbalanced, unfortunately. It's not just you.
What I'd do, DM allowing, is reduce ki cost by 1 for each discipline, minumum 1. This brings it in line with 1ki/spell level.
Then, I'd add all the elemental controll spells from teh Elemental Evil Player's Companion to the list of disciplines, and let the 4Elements monk choose one of the elemental control cantrips from that document at level 3.
Lastly, I'd give the monk 1 extra discipline each time you gain one ORgive them one of the Wu Jen Disciplines from the Mystic UA, letting them use Ki in place of Psi points. Either way, they cost at least 1 ki each, which isn't exactly a bountiful resource. Having a few more choices and a couple at will benefits isn't going to overpower you.
IMo, this brings it in line with the Shadow Monk, many of whose spells/benefits don't cost any ki!
You should definitely have more "spells", if they cost Ki to use, imo.
Hey everyone, I was mulling around with this idea before I actually found the monk subclass. I noticed that even with the specialization, my vision is a bit limited (as many are stating here).
As a work-around, I had thought of multi-classing as a sorcerer. My question is whether you can have the specializations of both (say, WotFE Monk/Phoenix Sorcerer). To take it a step further, could you trade in sorcery points to get Ki points as well as spell slots?
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Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
Hey everyone, I was mulling around with this idea before I actually found the monk subclass. I noticed that even with the specialization, my vision is a bit limited (as many are stating here).
As a work-around, I had thought of multi-classing as a sorcerer. My question is whether you can have the specializations of both (say, WotFE Monk/Phoenix Sorcerer). To take it a step further, could you trade in sorcery points to get Ki points as well as spell slots?
Of course you take specialization for both, when the class table says you can. But sorcery points and ki points are not interchangable.
Got it, thanks. I wasn't sure about the specs because it doesn't say in black-and-white yes or no in the PHB. As far as the point interchangeability, I figured that would probably be a houserule.
Since the sorcer essentially creates spells out of a combination of internal and external manipulation of magical energy, it seems like a perfect combo with the WotFE Monk to give some more magical firepower.
One other thing, are cantrips included in multi-classing? I thought this was, but it seemed like another grey area that just says "you get the new class added in", but doesn't specify.
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
I mean, we've been talking about houseruling Wot4E monk anyway, so see if you can test it out and see what making Sorc and Ki points interchangable does. I wouldn't mess with anything else that affects Ki points as that idea would already be a hefty change. But, it could it pretty interesting.
Basically, I'm thinking of the Ki/Sorcery points as being a universal pool to use for either purpose and limiting the character to ONLY elemental spells: if they directly affect an element, it's allowed. Abstract things like Hold Person or Message are magically created and do not utilize a medium like stone/earth or wind to provide the effect.
EDIT: Now that I think of it, would a druid be a better multi-class option, or should I even cobsider triple-classing?
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
Hey everyone, I was mulling around with this idea before I actually found the monk subclass. I noticed that even with the specialization, my vision is a bit limited (as many are stating here).
As a work-around, I had thought of multi-classing as a sorcerer. My question is whether you can have the specializations of both (say, WotFE Monk/Phoenix Sorcerer). To take it a step further, could you trade in sorcery points to get Ki points as well as spell slots?
It is SO MUCH BETTER than any makeshift Avatar you could make with WotFE Monk. Hell, they even have Water Whip (arguably the most useful WotFE discipline), but it's like 1000x better.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Wow...just looked over the Mystic and I have to say it's a broken (overpowered) class. By lvl 3, you can throw around spells for 4d6 or more with points to spare. All the while wearing modest armor and weapons. In the 2nd Psionics UA, does it completely edit the Mystic (I don't recall).
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Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
Wow...just looked over the Mystic and I have to say it's a broken (overpowered) class. By lvl 3, you can throw around spells for 4d6 or more with points to spare. All the while wearing modest armor and weapons. In the 2nd Psionics UA, does it completely edit the Mystic (I don't recall).
The 2nd UA does completely revamp the Mystic (the one I linked is the most up to date version)
Are you talking about Mastery of Force's Move effect? Because that's only if you lift and drop something that weighs 50lbs and only if they fail a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw.
So, I mean, that would be effective against like a Zombie against any roll below 12, but most creatures are going to be able to avoid it fairly easily (you'll miss 55% of the time against creatures with 0 Dex modifier and no proficiency).
Let's assume you are up against a big boss at level 3. We'll use a Blue Dragon Wyrmling. It has 17 AC +3 Str, +2 Dex, +4 Con, +1 Int, +2 Wis, and +4 Cha for saving throws.
So, for Move you can use 3 psi points to deal 4.9 damage on average [14 average (4d6) * 35%]
Combustion (Mastery of Fire) and Desiccate (Mastery of Water) are the only two that deal 1d10 per psi-point, and both require Con Saves (DC 13 assuming a 16-17 main stat) meaning they'll have to roll a 9 or higher so they'll save 60% of the time and deal 11.2 damage [16 average (3d10)*40] + [8 average (3d10/2)*60%]
For reference point, Chromatic Orb deals 3d8 at first level (4d8 if using a 2nd level spell slot - the spell level gained by wizards/sorcerers at level 3). So, since it requires an attack roll, you get +5 (again assuming 16-17 main stat). Looking at 55% miss rate. So, one level 2 spell slot to deal 9 damage: 0*11 for the misses + 144 [18 average (4d8)*8] for regular hits + 36 (4d8*2) for a critical hit (180 damage/20).
So, if we extrapolate the numbers, you can cast Mastery of Force using all of your psi points to use the Move effect: That's 5 times at max and 1 time at the 2d6 (2.45 damage average). That gives you 26.95 total damage using all your psi points.
For the d10 1-7 psi abilities you're looking at 63.4 total damage for using all your psi-points.
For a wizard or sorcerer using Chromatic Orb that's 53.2 total damage for using all your 1st and 2nd level spell slots + arcane recovery/sorcerer points.
So, that's only a difference of 10.2 damage difference between the two classes. Not a lot for single target spells, the numbers go another way when you include AoE spells like Burning Hands
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I was mostly wondering if the UA.2 for Psionics replaces everyting in the first UA, modifies, or supplements it.
As far as my initial reaction about the power of the class, I started looking at the discipline and noticed that it's pretty well-balanced. When you earn enough points to use the heavier abilities, you can be either a 1-shot wonder or spread out using smaller abilities/utilities.
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Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
its sad really . the sub class that should give you most versatility but instead limit you the most . and hate to tell you water whip is an Action because of an errata not a bonus action .
after I read all the post in this topic I am convinced to use the Hombrew one posted at the beginning . with some changes "Like make the fangs of fire snake 1 ki cost for one minute Concentration and same with the unbroken air but require the 1 ki to make the target make a St save before affect them with the push or prone not both " and other stuff like that .
if I would use the HPB one I would say that they can change their Disciplines every short rest and they can prepare (half thier wis modifire + 1/3 there monk level ) Disciplines . and also make fangs of fire snake 1 ki 1 min Concentration, .
either way I dont know what WOTC was thinking when they did that WotFE . you dont take the subclass so you have abilities that you "dont have to use" . something similer that erks me druids only get 2 wild shapes until level 20 and people say "You dont have to use them" ..... they are part of the class they are not utility .
I am sorry for the english mistakes, it's not my maternal language.
Everyone seems to be on a common ground with how this subclass feels: Limited. Limited in many aspects too even with the huge amount of potential this subclass get. Here's are some ideas I've been toying with that doesn't need many changes for the class and go directly to some point that seems to be talked a lot. I tried to think of it with what only exist in the player's handbook, so I can see possible problems and solution with just the basic options.
Ki point limit: They're two ways to go to feel not limited by your ki point amount, and just an economy procedure.
The first way is to boost the amount of available Ki points for this subclass. Explanation of how behind it, is that you learn how the energy(ki) of the world work and how to move along with it. Like the weapon and the monk become one with training, this subclass makes the world around the monk a part of him, and him of the world. Ok, metaphysic aside, giving a new ki point progression like 1 more ki point per 2 level or per 4 level of character or monk would extend your possibility of boosting the abilities and not just using them at their base level. That give a possibility of either 25 or 30 ki points at level 20, but do give the much-needed points at a lower level.
A second way is to reduce the cost of abilities. That's an idea I have a harder time dealing with except to one place. Some of the monk abilities, wich seems to never get chosen are the utility ones. The technique of Shape the flowing river(water to ice and vice versa), Clench of the North Wind (hold person) and a few other technique could come at no ki cost but instead be limited at once per short rest or 2 or 3 per short rest at a higher level of the character. It does require you to think when using them but gives more utilities to this class. But I know, choosing those spells ask you to give up on the powerful attack spells. I wouldn't suggest mixing both ki point increase and reduced cost tho, that might be way too powerful.
Ability list: Hold person at 6th level, nice. But I've been having too much fun breaking the world with Gong of the Summit(shatter). Breaking the floor right under a group of giants making them fall 50 feet high. But however we think of it, the list limit us a lot. Elemental Attunement is a cute cantrip, so I'll count the number of available ability at 16. Still, knowing only 4 ability out of 16 make you only able to touch 1/4 of it all by the end level. The simplest thing would be to double the amount of known technique. that would be 8 at level 17th(20th). Mixed with the reduction ideas of earlier, You could then choose an active(attack) and a passive(effect) technique(spell).
Those are just simple ideas but I still see some of the problems. Boosting the ki amount might make some people go crazy in the flurry of blow and stunning strikes. I know I sometimes do even without those modifications. I still have to try all those ideas in a game, but it seems a solution that could be viable for many.
Decrease cost. It's the same as adding ki, except that it doesn't hangs how core class abilities work.
Give 0 Ki abilities, like every other subclass. This means a few cantrips, and/or no ki uses of spells, x/day.
Another way to accomplish this is to simply give the subclass wu Jen disciplines instead of spells, including the focus benefits, and maybe a few psi points, with the ability to convert ki to psi, but not the other way around?
I like the first way, because I don't have to figure out as much math. I just subtract 1 ki from all discipline costs (min 1ki), and give them 2 elemental cantrips at lvl 3, and another later on.
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Also, if you look at a WotFE Monk vs an Arcane Trickster Rogue or an Eldritch Knight Fighter, this is even clearer an example of an underpowered class.
Both get actual useful cantrips. At level 7 the Eldritch Knight gets to attack once and cast a cantrip in the same turn. At level 10 if he attacks first and THEN casts a spell the target has disadvantage on the saving throw. 1st turn Attack + True Strike. 2nd turn Attack (with advantage) + Poison Spray (target has disadvantage). Notice these abilities both help your ability to do what fighters do best (get into melee and deal damage) as well as the flavour of the class (mixing magic with melee).
Arcane Trickster is basically a magical version of the thief class, using spells to basically distract/help you do your roguish abilities. Mage Hand Legerdemain at 3rd and Versatile Trickster at 13th make it so your Mage Hand helps with your out of combat Rogue abilities (like pick pocketing, lock picking, and trap disarming) as well as your ability to Sneak Attack in battle. Magical Ambush + Spell Thief both help your abilities to cast spells (and spell thief is a VERY rogue-like ability and also plays on the rogue's ability to mimic spellcasting that has been a staple of the class since at least 2e).
Each of these two archetypes convert the basic melee class into a magical melee class without hindering their ability to do what they do best. They, like the WotFE monk aren't pure spellcasting classes, but their spells actually help them do their main roles better. Either of these two casting Blade Ward or True Strike is helping their ability to either tank/maneuver through enemies avoiding damage from opportunity attacks (as well as drawing out all reactions of those they do, or increase their chance to hit (and for the rogue, set up an automatic sneak attack). Add in spells like Blur, Shield, Invisibility, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Haste, etc... and you've got an even more potent melee than you otherwise would.
WotFE monk doesn't get any of that kind of utility. You start off with two disciplines (one cantrip and one spell) and end up with a maximum of 6 total. By 4th level Eldritch Knight has 2 cantrips and 4 spells known and Arcane Trickster has 3 cantrips and 4 spells known (granted one of which pretty much HAS to be Mage Hand or you're doing it wrong). By 17 (the last time WotFE gets a new discipline) EK has 3 cantrips and 11 spells known and AT has 4 cantrips and 11 spells known. So this isn't ANYTHING like other melee classes who pursue spellcasting. This is more like a nerfed blade-lock who doesn't get Eldritch Blast.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
As for Quivering Palm taking two actions: The first action is actually a free action as a part of a normal attack. So again, you are able to do it as a part of what the monk is normally able to do. The only two abilities that you can do as a part of being a monk in WotFE is Water Whip (as a bonus action) and Fangs of the Fire Snake (as a part of the attack action). Everything else requires your full action. Meanwhile, Open Hand Technique and Quivering Palm are free actions on top of normal monk attacking (though QP costs 3 ki to activate), Shadow Step is a bonus action, and Opportunist is a reaction.
As for the EK/AT vs WotFE in spell economy, you're ignoring the true power of the Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster: the cantrips. The cantrips are usable anytime and can be far more useful depending on the situation: a blade warded defense fighter is going to soak up all the opportunity attacks while a True Strike rogue is going to get all the sneak attacks it wants.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
There are some more angles to consider:
Way of 4 elements has 2 or more "spells" that are ranged attacks (water whip and unbroken fists) and are quite powerful as ranged attacks.
And again, not in every combat he/she has to use the spells, only when needed.
Just saying that it is clear to me that Open hand is more powerful in single-combat, but 4 Elements has a wider spectrum of things he/she can do and can be very useful in some situations.
I mean, any spellcasting class with access to cantrips has ranged attack spells. In fact, besides River of Hungry Flame, EK and AT have access to all the same spells that WotFE monk does (just from the Spellcasting ability) in addition to all of their other archetype features. The monk just gets the spells 2 levels before them (with no extra archetype feature).
The difference is that those classes have much more variation in their spells and abilities than WotFE.
Yes, it's clear that WotFE has more AoE and control abilities than Open Hand (though I'd argue Shadow has just as much control, if not more). But when compared to other melee caster archetypes, it falls horribly short in all aspects.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I can run it by my DM, and we can play test it some for you.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
Hey everyone, I was mulling around with this idea before I actually found the monk subclass. I noticed that even with the specialization, my vision is a bit limited (as many are stating here).
As a work-around, I had thought of multi-classing as a sorcerer. My question is whether you can have the specializations of both (say, WotFE Monk/Phoenix Sorcerer). To take it a step further, could you trade in sorcery points to get Ki points as well as spell slots?
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
Got it, thanks. I wasn't sure about the specs because it doesn't say in black-and-white yes or no in the PHB. As far as the point interchangeability, I figured that would probably be a houserule.
Since the sorcer essentially creates spells out of a combination of internal and external manipulation of magical energy, it seems like a perfect combo with the WotFE Monk to give some more magical firepower.
One other thing, are cantrips included in multi-classing? I thought this was, but it seemed like another grey area that just says "you get the new class added in", but doesn't specify.
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
I mean, we've been talking about houseruling Wot4E monk anyway, so see if you can test it out and see what making Sorc and Ki points interchangable does. I wouldn't mess with anything else that affects Ki points as that idea would already be a hefty change. But, it could it pretty interesting.
Exactly my thought :)
Basically, I'm thinking of the Ki/Sorcery points as being a universal pool to use for either purpose and limiting the character to ONLY elemental spells: if they directly affect an element, it's allowed. Abstract things like Hold Person or Message are magically created and do not utilize a medium like stone/earth or wind to provide the effect.
EDIT: Now that I think of it, would a druid be a better multi-class option, or should I even cobsider triple-classing?
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
It is SO MUCH BETTER than any makeshift Avatar you could make with WotFE Monk. Hell, they even have Water Whip (arguably the most useful WotFE discipline), but it's like 1000x better.
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
Wow...just looked over the Mystic and I have to say it's a broken (overpowered) class. By lvl 3, you can throw around spells for 4d6 or more with points to spare. All the while wearing modest armor and weapons. In the 2nd Psionics UA, does it completely edit the Mystic (I don't recall).
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
So, I mean, that would be effective against like a Zombie against any roll below 12, but most creatures are going to be able to avoid it fairly easily (you'll miss 55% of the time against creatures with 0 Dex modifier and no proficiency).
So, for Move you can use 3 psi points to deal 4.9 damage on average [14 average (4d6) * 35%]
Click Here to Download my Lancer Class w/ Dragoon and Legionnaire Archetypes via DM's Guild - Pay What You Want
Click Here to Download the Mind Flayer: Thoon Hulk converted from 4e via DM's Guild
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
O.O
I was mostly wondering if the UA.2 for Psionics replaces everyting in the first UA, modifies, or supplements it.
As far as my initial reaction about the power of the class, I started looking at the discipline and noticed that it's pretty well-balanced. When you earn enough points to use the heavier abilities, you can be either a 1-shot wonder or spread out using smaller abilities/utilities.
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
its sad really . the sub class that should give you most versatility but instead limit you the most .
and hate to tell you water whip is an Action because of an errata not a bonus action .
after I read all the post in this topic I am convinced to use the Hombrew one posted at the beginning . with some changes "Like make the fangs of fire snake 1 ki cost for one minute Concentration and same with the unbroken air but require the 1 ki to make the target make a St save before affect them with the push or prone not both " and other stuff like that .
if I would use the HPB one I would say that they can change their Disciplines every short rest and they can prepare (half thier wis modifire + 1/3 there monk level ) Disciplines . and also make fangs of fire snake 1 ki 1 min Concentration, .
either way I dont know what WOTC was thinking when they did that WotFE .
you dont take the subclass so you have abilities that you "dont have to use" . something similer that erks me druids only get 2 wild shapes until level 20 and people say "You dont have to use them" ..... they are part of the class they are not utility .
Lead designer of: Druid Wild Shape Revised, Druid: Circle of Monstrosity (Homebrew class), Revised Classes : Focus on level 20.
Homebrewer of: Halwasa`s Mushrooms of fluid movement (Item), Giraffe (Beast), Displacer Panther (Beast) (heavily modified Displacer Beast that is owned by WoC), Lightning whip (2nd-level Spell), Lesser Shapechange (5th-level Spell), Investiture of Lightning (6th-level Spell), Touched by the magic (Feat).
I am sorry for the english mistakes, it's not my maternal language.
Everyone seems to be on a common ground with how this subclass feels: Limited. Limited in many aspects too even with the huge amount of potential this subclass get. Here's are some ideas I've been toying with that doesn't need many changes for the class and go directly to some point that seems to be talked a lot. I tried to think of it with what only exist in the player's handbook, so I can see possible problems and solution with just the basic options.
Ki point limit: They're two ways to go to feel not limited by your ki point amount, and just an economy procedure.
The first way is to boost the amount of available Ki points for this subclass. Explanation of how behind it, is that you learn how the energy(ki) of the world work and how to move along with it. Like the weapon and the monk become one with training, this subclass makes the world around the monk a part of him, and him of the world. Ok, metaphysic aside, giving a new ki point progression like 1 more ki point per 2 level or per 4 level of character or monk would extend your possibility of boosting the abilities and not just using them at their base level. That give a possibility of either 25 or 30 ki points at level 20, but do give the much-needed points at a lower level.
A second way is to reduce the cost of abilities. That's an idea I have a harder time dealing with except to one place. Some of the monk abilities, wich seems to never get chosen are the utility ones. The technique of Shape the flowing river(water to ice and vice versa), Clench of the North Wind (hold person) and a few other technique could come at no ki cost but instead be limited at once per short rest or 2 or 3 per short rest at a higher level of the character. It does require you to think when using them but gives more utilities to this class. But I know, choosing those spells ask you to give up on the powerful attack spells. I wouldn't suggest mixing both ki point increase and reduced cost tho, that might be way too powerful.
Ability list: Hold person at 6th level, nice. But I've been having too much fun breaking the world with Gong of the Summit(shatter). Breaking the floor right under a group of giants making them fall 50 feet high. But however we think of it, the list limit us a lot. Elemental Attunement is a cute cantrip, so I'll count the number of available ability at 16. Still, knowing only 4 ability out of 16 make you only able to touch 1/4 of it all by the end level. The simplest thing would be to double the amount of known technique. that would be 8 at level 17th(20th). Mixed with the reduction ideas of earlier, You could then choose an active(attack) and a passive(effect) technique(spell).
Those are just simple ideas but I still see some of the problems. Boosting the ki amount might make some people go crazy in the flurry of blow and stunning strikes. I know I sometimes do even without those modifications. I still have to try all those ideas in a game, but it seems a solution that could be viable for many.
I think the answer is twofold.
Decrease cost. It's the same as adding ki, except that it doesn't hangs how core class abilities work.
Give 0 Ki abilities, like every other subclass. This means a few cantrips, and/or no ki uses of spells, x/day.
Another way to accomplish this is to simply give the subclass wu Jen disciplines instead of spells, including the focus benefits, and maybe a few psi points, with the ability to convert ki to psi, but not the other way around?
I like the first way, because I don't have to figure out as much math. I just subtract 1 ki from all discipline costs (min 1ki), and give them 2 elemental cantrips at lvl 3, and another later on.
We do bones, motherf***ker!