Another problem is that they just straight up took spells on the Sorcerer/ Wizard list and listed them as options for the 4 Elements Monk when arcane casters and monks generally don't the same role in combat at all. Monks have high DEX and high movement rate for a reason. They can do a bunch of attacks for a reason. They are skirmishers/assassins primarily, not utility casters or blasters. The designers did not have the frame of mind when designing this subclass to properly mesh the Monk-ness with elemental theme in a way that makes it special as a Monk.
After a long time away from the subject and a few recent (and now wiser) re-readings, the concept is strong and the execution is entirely bad. The problem, I think, lies in the fact you forego all subclass potential just to sling some spells. At that point, you are effectively just a monk who figured out "Sorcerer-101", but can't commit to either.
Compare to the other pseudo-caster subclasses - the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight. They get spells, yes, but also subclass features which make the magic feel like an enhancement, not an addon strapped with tape. EKs can (eventually) cast spells in conjunction with their base attacks. ATs can use their Mage Hand for Sleight of Hand and can even do some extra-roguish tricks with magical enhancement. These are things which make you feel like the magic enhances the class without just giving a limited spell list. WotFE gets their spells - and only a very limited amount - and nothing else. Sure, baseline monks are fantastic, but it's not like their spells can, for instance, be used in conjunction with Martial Arts, or to enhance other main monk features or Ki abilities.
Even something as simple as "You unarmed attacks can now inflict elemental damage. After a long rest, choose Fire, Lightning, or Cold damage. You can choose an additional damage type at X, Y, and Z levels. At the beginning of your turn in combat, you can choose to inflict the chosen damage type, rather than bludgeoning. If you choose bludgeoning as your damage type, you can forego the extra attacks granted by your Martial Arts to increase your damage by your proficiency modifier or Shove the target as a Bonus Action."
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Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
I legit just really love the synergy of Wall of Fire and first of unbroken air to constantly push them back into it over... and over... and over...
That’s an extra 5d8 every time, and they need to walk around the Wall again and again. Also realize, a Monk with evasion could literally just stand in the Wall of Fire’s bad side with Patient Defense and never take any damage.
And if you’re smart, with the right combination of spells you legitimately are an untouchable caster. Patient Defense and all saves proficiencies is one thing... imagine a gnome or yuan-ti monk would be pretty much immune to every spell out there. Throw in War Caster and you’ll never lose concentration either.
If you're not good at resource management, you're going to struggle with the Elemonk. They're the absolute best monks to challenge spellcasters. They can catch flying enemies and even knock them out of the sky, they can attack from a distance with very powerful spells for a martial. They can disrupt concentration just as a regular monk can via Stunning Strike.
4-elemonks shores up every weakness that a normal monk has in exchange for asking a fee to use these extra abilities.
Though an Elemonk can more than function without Ki points. It makes it better when you realize that a typical adventure day means you're expected to have roughly 3x the noted ki resource.
Possible suggestions to fix Way of the Four Elements monk. Definitely needs more work.
Create a specific list of spells for this arch type similar to Bard, Wizard, etc`. Max limit would be 5th level spells
You can also learn two cantrips of your choice from the following list: fire bolt, mold earth, produce flame, ray of frost, or shocking grasp.
You can use a basic attack as bonus action if a cantrip is cast as action on monk's turn (similar to Eldritch Knight)Spells do not cost KI to cast but if you want to upcast you must spend KI points and abide by max spell limits as noted in PHB
Allow Flurry to blows to work when spell is cast (spend KI as required by ability)
When casting a spell that requires an attack roll (ranged or melee), you can use Stunning Fist ability (spend KI as required by ability). You can only affect 1 opponent no matter how many targets the spell affects.
Deflect Missiles now allow the monk to defect spells that require a physical attack roll to hit the monk only. If the spell has an affect that requires a DC, use the Monks DC if higher. You can use this feature a number of times per day equal to your Proficiency Bonus.
I am surprised that there are two threads about how people hate the four elements monk. Not because there are 2, but because there are only two.
Frankly, I was shocked when I first heard people thought this subclass was, not just bad, but the worst. That is crazy to me.
I’m reading through this thread, and people’s criticisms are all over the place. Comparisons to full casters, half casters, warlocks, 1/3 casters, why? These monks are even casters.
Anyone who looks at this subclass and thinks they should be able to use their subclass abilities every round is going to be disappointed. Just like a wizard that wants to cast 9th level spells all day. Or a fighter that wants to action surge each battle. You can’t.
Running out of ki effects other subclasses just as much. When an open hand has zero ki they become a pacifist. Each subclass relies on ki.
The four elements monk gets the same effect from the same amount of ki spent as other monks. They get to do more on one turn. Making them better at monk action economy.
Monks also really lack in the non-single target department. The four elements monk doesn’t.
The four elements doesn’t lack synergy with their core features. They widen the scope of what a monk can do in a way that no other monk can. AoE. Ranged attacks. Handling flying enemies. Ki action economy.
I am surprised that there are two threads about how people hate the four elements monk. Not because there are 2, but because there are only two.
Frankly, I was shocked when I first heard people thought this subclass was, not just bad, but the worst. That is crazy to me.
I’m reading through this thread, and people’s criticisms are all over the place. Comparisons to full casters, half casters, warlocks, 1/3 casters, why? These monks are even casters.
Anyone who looks at this subclass and thinks they should be able to use their subclass abilities every round is going to be disappointed. Just like a wizard that wants to cast 9th level spells all day. Or a fighter that wants to action surge each battle. You can’t.
Running out of ki effects other subclasses just as much. When an open hand has zero ki they become a pacifist. Each subclass relies on ki.
The four elements monk gets the same effect from the same amount of ki spent as other monks. They get to do more on one turn. Making them better at monk action economy.
Monks also really lack in the non-single target department. The four elements monk doesn’t.
The four elements doesn’t lack synergy with their core features. They widen the scope of what a monk can do in a way that no other monk can. AoE. Ranged attacks. Handling flying enemies. Ki action economy.
Participating in other 4E monk threads I’m starting to agree with you that 4E monk isn’t as bad as many make it out to be. I took a stab at making my own version of 4E that I posted in this forum. but I really think that when the time comes, once our current campaign comes to a close, I am going to make a monk and it will probably be a 4E monk. but that’s probably a long time from now.
I don’t play at an optimized table so shouldn’t be a problem of not holding my own.
One thing that I do think that should absolutely be different for 4E is Elemental Attunement should just be a subclass ability and not an Elemental Discipline so that frees up the ED slot for another option.
It's abilities are fine. (Some are slightly underwhelming. But it's a fast striker, not a pure mage.) The isue is the cost for the effect is too high and often times you're better off just punching things.
I still really like the subclass. but Believe they should decrease the cost or increase the power of some of it's abilities.
Like? Make it where if fangs of the fire snake activate with your first punch, it makes flurry of blows free for that round
have it's hold person feature cost 2 instead of 3.
Make it's cone of cold cost 3 or 4 instead of 5.
Have the fist of unbroken air add your dex or wisdom to damage. (small buff.) and make it cause 2d5 extra damage per addition ki spent to give it more reliable damage.
that sort of thing.
It's certainly not a terrible class, It's still much better at casting than eldritch knight offensively. I mean it get's access to 5-6 level spells at high level.
Lowering the cost has been something that’s been brought up many times and a house rule some have used. Lowering it to Ki=level of the spell has been one suggestion (shadow monk is like this with silence, pass without trace, darkness).
I would have liked if more of the ED’s were unique and not just “cast X spell” Some ED’s come on so late they lose their appeal.
I think they did a good job with the UA Four Elements monk. It’s not perfect, but it’s better.
If Monks get spells, they need some spells that can be cast with a bonus action, like Rangers and Paladins. It makes no sense for a subclass that is designed to play like a half caster to not have bonus action spells.
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Another problem is that they just straight up took spells on the Sorcerer/ Wizard list and listed them as options for the 4 Elements Monk when arcane casters and monks generally don't the same role in combat at all. Monks have high DEX and high movement rate for a reason. They can do a bunch of attacks for a reason. They are skirmishers/assassins primarily, not utility casters or blasters. The designers did not have the frame of mind when designing this subclass to properly mesh the Monk-ness with elemental theme in a way that makes it special as a Monk.
Too OP.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
After a long time away from the subject and a few recent (and now wiser) re-readings, the concept is strong and the execution is entirely bad. The problem, I think, lies in the fact you forego all subclass potential just to sling some spells. At that point, you are effectively just a monk who figured out "Sorcerer-101", but can't commit to either.
Compare to the other pseudo-caster subclasses - the Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight. They get spells, yes, but also subclass features which make the magic feel like an enhancement, not an addon strapped with tape. EKs can (eventually) cast spells in conjunction with their base attacks. ATs can use their Mage Hand for Sleight of Hand and can even do some extra-roguish tricks with magical enhancement. These are things which make you feel like the magic enhances the class without just giving a limited spell list. WotFE gets their spells - and only a very limited amount - and nothing else. Sure, baseline monks are fantastic, but it's not like their spells can, for instance, be used in conjunction with Martial Arts, or to enhance other main monk features or Ki abilities.
Even something as simple as "You unarmed attacks can now inflict elemental damage. After a long rest, choose Fire, Lightning, or Cold damage. You can choose an additional damage type at X, Y, and Z levels. At the beginning of your turn in combat, you can choose to inflict the chosen damage type, rather than bludgeoning. If you choose bludgeoning as your damage type, you can forego the extra attacks granted by your Martial Arts to increase your damage by your proficiency modifier or Shove the target as a Bonus Action."
Characters:
Grishkar Darkmoor, Necromancer of Nerull the Despiser
Kelvin Rabbitfoot, Diviner, con artist, always hunting for a good sale
Bründir Halfshield, Valor Bard, three-time Sheercleft Drinking Competition Champion, Hometown hero
You can make Firebenders, Airbenders, Waterbenders, and Earthbenders from Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra. So that's pretty cool.
I legit just really love the synergy of Wall of Fire and first of unbroken air to constantly push them back into it over... and over... and over...
That’s an extra 5d8 every time, and they need to walk around the Wall again and again. Also realize, a Monk with evasion could literally just stand in the Wall of Fire’s bad side with Patient Defense and never take any damage.
And if you’re smart, with the right combination of spells you legitimately are an untouchable caster. Patient Defense and all saves proficiencies is one thing... imagine a gnome or yuan-ti monk would be pretty much immune to every spell out there. Throw in War Caster and you’ll never lose concentration either.
If you're not good at resource management, you're going to struggle with the Elemonk. They're the absolute best monks to challenge spellcasters. They can catch flying enemies and even knock them out of the sky, they can attack from a distance with very powerful spells for a martial. They can disrupt concentration just as a regular monk can via Stunning Strike.
4-elemonks shores up every weakness that a normal monk has in exchange for asking a fee to use these extra abilities.
Though an Elemonk can more than function without Ki points. It makes it better when you realize that a typical adventure day means you're expected to have roughly 3x the noted ki resource.
I've just got to the start of season 3 of Avatar and Way of the Four Elements makes so much sense now. Still, not the way I want my monk to go...
Possible suggestions to fix Way of the Four Elements monk. Definitely needs more work.
This thread is phenomenal for using the feedback to make my own version of WotFE monk, as I've wanted to for a long time.
I am surprised that there are two threads about how people hate the four elements monk. Not because there are 2, but because there are only two.
Frankly, I was shocked when I first heard people thought this subclass was, not just bad, but the worst. That is crazy to me.
I’m reading through this thread, and people’s criticisms are all over the place. Comparisons to full casters, half casters, warlocks, 1/3 casters, why? These monks are even casters.
Anyone who looks at this subclass and thinks they should be able to use their subclass abilities every round is going to be disappointed. Just like a wizard that wants to cast 9th level spells all day. Or a fighter that wants to action surge each battle. You can’t.
Running out of ki effects other subclasses just as much. When an open hand has zero ki they become a pacifist. Each subclass relies on ki.
The four elements monk gets the same effect from the same amount of ki spent as other monks. They get to do more on one turn. Making them better at monk action economy.
Monks also really lack in the non-single target department. The four elements monk doesn’t.
The four elements doesn’t lack synergy with their core features. They widen the scope of what a monk can do in a way that no other monk can. AoE. Ranged attacks. Handling flying enemies. Ki action economy.
Participating in other 4E monk threads I’m starting to agree with you that 4E monk isn’t as bad as many make it out to be. I took a stab at making my own version of 4E that I posted in this forum. but I really think that when the time comes, once our current campaign comes to a close, I am going to make a monk and it will probably be a 4E monk. but that’s probably a long time from now.
I don’t play at an optimized table so shouldn’t be a problem of not holding my own.
One thing that I do think that should absolutely be different for 4E is Elemental Attunement should just be a subclass ability and not an Elemental Discipline so that frees up the ED slot for another option.
It's abilities are fine. (Some are slightly underwhelming. But it's a fast striker, not a pure mage.) The isue is the cost for the effect is too high and often times you're better off just punching things.
I still really like the subclass. but Believe they should decrease the cost or increase the power of some of it's abilities.
Like? Make it where if fangs of the fire snake activate with your first punch, it makes flurry of blows free for that round
have it's hold person feature cost 2 instead of 3.
Make it's cone of cold cost 3 or 4 instead of 5.
Have the fist of unbroken air add your dex or wisdom to damage. (small buff.) and make it cause 2d5 extra damage per addition ki spent to give it more reliable damage.
that sort of thing.
It's certainly not a terrible class, It's still much better at casting than eldritch knight offensively. I mean it get's access to 5-6 level spells at high level.
but it's not the most reliable.
Lowering the cost has been something that’s been brought up many times and a house rule some have used. Lowering it to Ki=level of the spell has been one suggestion (shadow monk is like this with silence, pass without trace, darkness).
I would have liked if more of the ED’s were unique and not just “cast X spell” Some ED’s come on so late they lose their appeal.
I think they did a good job with the UA Four Elements monk. It’s not perfect, but it’s better.
If Monks get spells, they need some spells that can be cast with a bonus action, like Rangers and Paladins. It makes no sense for a subclass that is designed to play like a half caster to not have bonus action spells.