Funny, the one paladin who mostly fit that description of having incredible saves and insane high AC is a triton ancients paladin. Except, he was only 7 levels there and 13 into wild magic sorcerer. I can ensure you, this guy out damaged and out survived regular paladins on the reg.
I don't know how calling my builds"cookie cutter" is a valid criticism. Fighter paladin mc sure ain't common round these parts. Even if it were, so what? this is about how MCing is a great decision on paladin. Not if a build gets special snowflake points (which straight paladin sure as heck ain't). Still, I am curious how you manage to get "100 damage before dice." A purebred zealot can only do about 88 (12 rage, 30 GWM+pam, 27 from STR if belt, 9 if +3 weapon, 10 divine fury) DPR without dice, and any less levels in zealot means less dice dependent damage. How you do that on a paladin MC is puzzling.
Why would you make the silly, faulty assumption that my paladins have low CHA when I'm openly playing AL, where belts are easily obtained? I only need to increase CHA. Bro, my fighter paladin has a +6 aura and uses a storm giant belt.
Some paladins have great lvl 15 abilities. Some don't. Some have great capstone's while others have crap.
Ok bud this right here really shows me you have no clue how to build characters at all.
First off you will never out survive a full Paladin on the front lines in any fullcaster multiclass you want to do. You dont have the HP, nor the Lay on hands, nor any other ability past Paladin lvl 7. You got spell slots cool beans bud. I can literally get 6th level spell slots with a 2 lvl dip in Cleric and have all the benefits plus 3 attacks a turn more than once a day depending on the wisdom modifier and with holy avenger and his race does the exact same thing as a devotion paladins capstone ability all be it at a shorter distance. So my multiclass can do everything a full fledge devotion paladin can do with a 6th level spell slot and ranged attacks in versatility, However a full Devotion Paladin with the same race and items does more damage and has more health and another ASI to use.
No your builds are cookie cutter builds and it is absolutely fair to state because as much as you want to talk shit on Aura of Protection, and the level 7 Paladin Abilities you sure use them alot because thats what the internet says is powerful. Further you think dealing 22d8 damage is alot a turn. Dude I play a Hexblade. A full Hexblade Warlock and she can roll at max rolls can roll 12d8+8d12 a turn and those 8d12s come from 2 additional attacks on a bonus action that on crits, where crits are 18-20, can be up to 24d12s with both hits. If I was to make her a hexadin she'd be doing 22d8+8d12s a turn. Your not even maximizing damage potential because you are so focused on what the internet says is powerful you dont actually pay attention that unless you are going for thematics in builds anything more than 4 levels in a multiclass is not worth it at all and is actually a hamper to a character build.
You show you clear lack of understanding of building characters when you wonder how a Zealot Barbarian/ Devotion paladin multiclass can do 100 damage before dice rolls. You wonder this because you dont know how to build something to its max effectiveness. Because while the you are right on what the max bonuses a Zealot Barbarian can do with GWM you dont take into account other character creation things that can be done to deal more damage. 88 damage is not the Maximum a Zealot Barbarian can do when built to maximize damage. The max damage a Zealot Barbarian can do before dice rolls built right is 118 damage. Which is still higher than what My Zealot Barbarian Paladin can do.
Woopty Dooo you have magic items on your Fighter/ Paladin. Your still no where near as powerful as a full Paladin. You gain versatility that is all. But hey you want to talk about your +6 to CHA do to a magic item. Bud any Paladin could have that, I could also literally make a Paladin with 39AC also with Magic items with out multiclassing your point because of items. I'm not the one that's sitting here arguing that multiclass characters are stronger than full classes. I have routinely made the arguement they are more versatile. Versatility does not make something stronger though its a false equivalency. You give up power in the frontline and in class specialization for versatility. You ever hear of the Jack of all trades master of none. That's what you get
They are really not that hard to kill. I've played with several in a group and they go unconscious very quickly in comparison. You have abilities to increase your ability to escape a confrontation. Not to survive it
Lowest Save: +4 (INT); Favored by the Gods gives you a 2d4 if you do manage to miss.
AC: 20
Getting attacked? Shield Reaction makes AC 25
Getting spelled on? Counterspell....even if it hits you get Resistance to all damage from spells.
Getting Dragon Breathed? Absorb Elements
Overall you have so much to deal with every possible form of damage...its crazy.
Ok first your Character is a rolled Character not point buy so has no basis of being involved in this discussion at all unless you want me to bring out my 2 Character that I rolled with Strait 18s and say your still wrong but I will enlighten you to how wrong you are on this non the less based off your stats. For the sake and to prove a point I will use my AL lvl 13 paladin, that is Point buy. So my character is already at a disadvantage going into this.
Going off pure stats and ill record each of them so people can easily see here:
Aubrey Khaldo Draigo
AC 22 AC 26 (28 shield of Faith)
HP 109 HP 147
Movement
30 walking 30 walking 90 flying
Vision
Darkvision 60ft Truesight 60ft
saves in order of str, dex, con, int, wis, cha
9, 6, 8, 5, 12,16 9, 6, 15, 6, 14, 17
Resistances
Damage from Spells Fire, Necrotic, Radiant, Damage from Spells
Immunity
Disease Disease, Frightened, Charmed
Advantages
Saving throws against charm Wisdom (insight Checks)
Disadvantages
Stealth Stealth
Attack
+10 +7 (+12 Sacred Weapon)
Attack Damage
Longsword, Divine Smite, Hexblades curse Sword of Zariel, Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, Scourge Aasimar(1 per turn)
1d8+6d8+11 3d8+6d8+1d8+15+(6 to all creatures in 10ft)
Lay on Hands
35 65 +(13 Healing Hands)
I mean seriously bud if you want to pull out characters and try to say how powerful they are because of this and that I just had an Adventure League character 2 lvls lower than you make you look weak and I dont even have +1 plate. My level 13 Character hits harder, has more health, better saves, higher AC and a far better ability to heal himself or the party. You have versatility some situations thats it you do not have the same surviability as a full fledge Paladin.
In fairness, you do have an artifact level weapon, which spikes your damage. But I think you make a strong argument.
I have a level 6 vengeance paladin, currently. I have been toying with multi-classing either warlock or sorcerer. But, as you point out, there are always drawbacks. If you get something, you lose something else. As a level 6 paladin, I'm only 2 levels away from another ASI/feat and 3 levels away from the power increase of 3rd level spells. IF I decide to multi-class, I won't get those 3rd level spells until level 11 at the earliest. Since most games won't go to level 20, this has lead me re-think multi-classing over all. I may still decide it's worth it (am leaning that way), but I realize my character may very well be sub-optimal, until I get multiple levels in. And who knows? Do I ever reach the high level where I plan on my multi-class build truly being worthwhile?
Funny, the one paladin who mostly fit that description of having incredible saves and insane high AC is a triton ancients paladin. Except, he was only 7 levels there and 13 into wild magic sorcerer. I can ensure you, this guy out damaged and out survived regular paladins on the reg.
I don't know how calling my builds"cookie cutter" is a valid criticism. Fighter paladin mc sure ain't common round these parts. Even if it were, so what? this is about how MCing is a great decision on paladin. Not if a build gets special snowflake points (which straight paladin sure as heck ain't). Still, I am curious how you manage to get "100 damage before dice." A purebred zealot can only do about 88 (12 rage, 30 GWM+pam, 27 from STR if belt, 9 if +3 weapon, 10 divine fury) DPR without dice, and any less levels in zealot means less dice dependent damage. How you do that on a paladin MC is puzzling.
Why would you make the silly, faulty assumption that my paladins have low CHA when I'm openly playing AL, where belts are easily obtained? I only need to increase CHA. Bro, my fighter paladin has a +6 aura and uses a storm giant belt.
Some paladins have great lvl 15 abilities. Some don't. Some have great capstone's while others have crap.
Ok bud this right here really shows me you have no clue how to build characters at all.
First off you will never out survive a full Paladin on the front lines in any fullcaster multiclass you want to do. You dont have the HP, nor the Lay on hands, nor any other ability past Paladin lvl 7. You got spell slots cool beans bud. I can literally get 6th level spell slots with a 2 lvl dip in Cleric and have all the benefits plus 3 attacks a turn more than once a day depending on the wisdom modifier and with holy avenger and his race does the exact same thing as a devotion paladins capstone ability all be it at a shorter distance. So my multiclass can do everything a full fledge devotion paladin can do with a 6th level spell slot and ranged attacks in versatility, However a full Devotion Paladin with the same race and items does more damage and has more health and another ASI to use.
No your builds are cookie cutter builds and it is absolutely fair to state because as much as you want to talk shit on Aura of Protection, and the level 7 Paladin Abilities you sure use them alot because thats what the internet says is powerful. Further you think dealing 22d8 damage is alot a turn. Dude I play a Hexblade. A full Hexblade Warlock and she can roll at max rolls can roll 12d8+8d12 a turn and those 8d12s come from 2 additional attacks on a bonus action that on crits, where crits are 18-20, can be up to 24d12s with both hits. If I was to make her a hexadin she'd be doing 22d8+8d12s a turn. Your not even maximizing damage potential because you are so focused on what the internet says is powerful you dont actually pay attention that unless you are going for thematics in builds anything more than 4 levels in a multiclass is not worth it at all and is actually a hamper to a character build.
You show you clear lack of understanding of building characters when you wonder how a Zealot Barbarian/ Devotion paladin multiclass can do 100 damage before dice rolls. You wonder this because you dont know how to build something to its max effectiveness. Because while the you are right on what the max bonuses a Zealot Barbarian can do with GWM you dont take into account other character creation things that can be done to deal more damage. 88 damage is not the Maximum a Zealot Barbarian can do when built to maximize damage. The max damage a Zealot Barbarian can do before dice rolls built right is 118 damage. Which is still higher than what My Zealot Barbarian Paladin can do.
Woopty Dooo you have magic items on your Fighter/ Paladin. Your still no where near as powerful as a full Paladin. You gain versatility that is all. But hey you want to talk about your +6 to CHA do to a magic item. Bud any Paladin could have that, I could also literally make a Paladin with 39AC also with Magic items with out multiclassing your point because of items. I'm not the one that's sitting here arguing that multiclass characters are stronger than full classes. I have routinely made the arguement they are more versatile. Versatility does not make something stronger though its a false equivalency. You give up power in the frontline and in class specialization for versatility. You ever hear of the Jack of all trades master of none. That's what you get
They are really not that hard to kill. I've played with several in a group and they go unconscious very quickly in comparison. You have abilities to increase your ability to escape a confrontation. Not to survive it
Lowest Save: +4 (INT); Favored by the Gods gives you a 2d4 if you do manage to miss.
AC: 20
Getting attacked? Shield Reaction makes AC 25
Getting spelled on? Counterspell....even if it hits you get Resistance to all damage from spells.
Getting Dragon Breathed? Absorb Elements
Overall you have so much to deal with every possible form of damage...its crazy.
Ok first your Character is a rolled Character not point buy so has no basis of being involved in this discussion at all unless you want me to bring out my 2 Character that I rolled with Strait 18s and say your still wrong but I will enlighten you to how wrong you are on this non the less based off your stats. For the sake and to prove a point I will use my AL lvl 13 paladin, that is Point buy. So my character is already at a disadvantage going into this.
Going off pure stats and ill record each of them so people can easily see here:
Aubrey Khaldo Draigo
AC 22 AC 26 (28 shield of Faith)
HP 109 HP 147
Movement
30 walking 30 walking 90 flying
Vision
Darkvision 60ft Truesight 60ft
saves in order of str, dex, con, int, wis, cha
9, 6, 8, 5, 12,16 9, 6, 15, 6, 14, 17
Resistances
Damage from Spells Fire, Necrotic, Radiant, Damage from Spells
Immunity
Disease Disease, Frightened, Charmed
Advantages
Saving throws against charm Wisdom (insight Checks)
Disadvantages
Stealth Stealth
Attack
+10 +7 (+12 Sacred Weapon)
Attack Damage
Longsword, Divine Smite, Hexblades curse Sword of Zariel, Divine Smite, Improved Divine Smite, Scourge Aasimar(1 per turn)
1d8+6d8+11 3d8+6d8+1d8+15+(6 to all creatures in 10ft)
Lay on Hands
35 65 +(13 Healing Hands)
I mean seriously bud if you want to pull out characters and try to say how powerful they are because of this and that I just had an Adventure League character 2 lvls lower than you make you look weak and I dont even have +1 plate. My level 13 Character hits harder, has more health, better saves, higher AC and a far better ability to heal himself or the party. You have versatility some situations thats it you do not have the same surviability as a full fledge Paladin.
In fairness, you do have an artifact level weapon, which spikes your damage. But I think you make a strong argument.
I have a level 6 vengeance paladin, currently. I have been toying with multi-classing either warlock or sorcerer. But, as you point out, there are always drawbacks. If you get something, you lose something else. As a level 6 paladin, I'm only 2 levels away from another ASI/feat and 3 levels away from the power increase of 3rd level spells. IF I decide to multi-class, I won't get those 3rd level spells until level 11 at the earliest. Since most games won't go to level 20, this has lead me re-think is multi-classing over all. I may still decide it's worth it (am leaning that way), but I realize my character may very well be sub-optimal, until I get multiple levels in. And who knows? Do I ever reach the high level where I plan on my multi-class build truly being worthwhile?
Yes I do have an artifact weapon but the damage spike from it is only 2d8 nothing more.
I will never argue that multiclassing isnt good for the story or for mechanics as they still bring a bunch to the table in terms of versatility. However I'd never say anything more than 4 lvls is truly worth it and that pushes the cost of doing so. Taking more than 3 lvls you gain very little. It's why I built a Paladin/Cleric multiclas. You end up with a 6th level but it takes far more levels to gain mor advantages and then you are giving up serious power in you main class in some form or the other. 2 lvls are perfect, 3 pushes it, 4 you only do to retain an ASI. That being said unless you want to short change your character or are doing it for story driven content the best time to multiclass is generally sometime past lvl 10 depending on the class and build.
Ok bud this right here really shows me you have no clue how to build characters at all.
Huh? You're still on about that? I forgot about this thread from weeks ago.
Anyways, I'm not here to showboat my character's magic item list. All I'm trying to say that it is very well worth multiclassing a paladin. Remember, the entire thing's a response to your thesis that a paladin should never be multiclassed. Why, yes, thank you for pointing out I gained versatility in my build-- that's the entire point! I've gained short-rest dependency and battle maneuvers with just three levels into battle master. I don't need to use my slots for a spike in damage, I can conserve them while relying on things like action surge and precision attack instead AND have it all back after an hour's rest. Using GWM and my flame tongue with Great Weapon Fighting style, I easily do 76 DPR on average. With action surge and precision attack, I can do 150 damage in one round before I touch a single spell slot. I do believe that's already stronger than your guy, and my AC's not bad either at 22 even with a greatsword, soooooo....
Yet, there are some inconsistencies in your reasoning. For one, you make this comparison about AC (you even bring up shield of faith, as if the other guy doesn't have it either) and this is an odd point to mention because this should be a constant with any proper paladin multiclass. Sure, you could have 39 AC-- but so can every other MC. Yes, any paladin can have a +6 aura, and I never claimed this was something special on my behalf but I only mentioned it to refute your dumb assumption that my MCs were rocking low CHA, and again, any MC can have it too.
So, if we're to talk about who's got real know-how on character building, shouldn't this assumption be a given? The only differences you have are in hit die, Lay on Hands points, and features beyond lvl 6. Let's make a practical comparison with a practical assumption: In your typical 1-11 campaign, what does a full paladin have, and what does a MC (let's assume sorcadin with a 6/5 split) have?
Paladin's got an extra d8 on their attacks tacked on, immunity to fear, and their lvl 7 aura, 25 more LoH points, and 10 more HP if both have a +3 CON mod.
MC's got access to two 4th lvl slots, a wider array of spells, meta magic, and several cantrips, and their subclass features.
On the surface it can look like your initial statement, that pure paladins are tankier and "stronger" in the frontlines, holds true. Yes, more HP and LoHs can equate to tankier, but what about the AC? All things considered equal, you won't have the 5 AC from casting Shield. Nor will you have absorb elements. If an enemy's out of reach, the pure paladin's out of luck while the MC has ranged spells or cantrips. If you fail a saving throw, that's it. But if a divine soul fails, maybe they can turn it around with "favored by the gods," and given how much the aura's working, it's not an overstatement to say they just might pull it off. Again, the main point I'm trying to make is that such a multiclass is well worth it and comes online sooner than you think even within t2.
Furthermore, those spells can have real power on an encounter. A well placed hypnotic pattern can have much more sway over how an encounter goes than placing on crusader's mantle on your party does, for example. You can quicken a green flame blade after attacking twice, and yes, you can smite with that same attack too if you really want to for even more damage. Immunity to fear seems cool, but if you're already proficient in WIS saves, and you've got a bomb-ass aura, are you really in danger of falling to fear? Even then, fear isn't the worst thing you can have in an encounter-- it's not game-ending. But even then, most of my MCs consider 11 paladin as a common stopping point. I like those auras, but again, I'm not holding them in high regard because DnD isn't balanced around the inclusion of a paladin. They don't build encounters such that they're impossible without a paladin. With or without auras, the party will always be fine in the end. That's why I don't mind delaying my aura by a level or two, it's not the end of the world if I don't have it by level 6.
However, bud, this comes from a difference in goals. If you want your paladin to have all the auras, and at their maximum 30ft radius with a holy avenger, a multiclass will do little but hamper your progress to that end. Want to heal as much as possible with Lay on Hands? Want to access Cleansing Touch asap? Then don't multiclass. If you want to play a gish that's got heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency, access to battle field control, AoE and ranged spells, then multiclassing is a valid choice. Can the MC do what the pure did with his stat-stick build? No, but neither can the pure do what the MC does. Both, however, can still rock insane AC, both can still achieve incredibly high saves, and both can have melee that's on par with each other.
KhaldoDraigo and cgarciao, you are both very knowledgeable players. There is no right way or wrong way, as long as you are having fun. Respect each other and the other person's knowledge base. You both make interesting points in the forums and are opinions I look forward to reading.
This guy was really worked up. Anyway, if you're coming here now and looking for an opinion on going for three levels of Ranger on a Devotion Paladin to hunt undead, go Gloomstalker. You get the most out of that one. If you're set on Ranger, anyway.
I’m sorry if this is redundant, I love multi classing but for out of combat situations mostly. There is a character named Drasek Riven, can someone help (with 10 lvls) to build him?
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In fairness, you do have an artifact level weapon, which spikes your damage. But I think you make a strong argument.
I have a level 6 vengeance paladin, currently. I have been toying with multi-classing either warlock or sorcerer. But, as you point out, there are always drawbacks. If you get something, you lose something else. As a level 6 paladin, I'm only 2 levels away from another ASI/feat and 3 levels away from the power increase of 3rd level spells. IF I decide to multi-class, I won't get those 3rd level spells until level 11 at the earliest. Since most games won't go to level 20, this has lead me re-think multi-classing over all. I may still decide it's worth it (am leaning that way), but I realize my character may very well be sub-optimal, until I get multiple levels in. And who knows? Do I ever reach the high level where I plan on my multi-class build truly being worthwhile?
If that's the case then my point is even further made. A Paladin 2 levels lower than your build is far more powerful
Yes I do have an artifact weapon but the damage spike from it is only 2d8 nothing more.
I will never argue that multiclassing isnt good for the story or for mechanics as they still bring a bunch to the table in terms of versatility. However I'd never say anything more than 4 lvls is truly worth it and that pushes the cost of doing so. Taking more than 3 lvls you gain very little. It's why I built a Paladin/Cleric multiclas. You end up with a 6th level but it takes far more levels to gain mor advantages and then you are giving up serious power in you main class in some form or the other. 2 lvls are perfect, 3 pushes it, 4 you only do to retain an ASI. That being said unless you want to short change your character or are doing it for story driven content the best time to multiclass is generally sometime past lvl 10 depending on the class and build.
Huh? You're still on about that? I forgot about this thread from weeks ago.
Anyways, I'm not here to showboat my character's magic item list. All I'm trying to say that it is very well worth multiclassing a paladin. Remember, the entire thing's a response to your thesis that a paladin should never be multiclassed. Why, yes, thank you for pointing out I gained versatility in my build-- that's the entire point! I've gained short-rest dependency and battle maneuvers with just three levels into battle master. I don't need to use my slots for a spike in damage, I can conserve them while relying on things like action surge and precision attack instead AND have it all back after an hour's rest. Using GWM and my flame tongue with Great Weapon Fighting style, I easily do 76 DPR on average. With action surge and precision attack, I can do 150 damage in one round before I touch a single spell slot. I do believe that's already stronger than your guy, and my AC's not bad either at 22 even with a greatsword, soooooo....
Yet, there are some inconsistencies in your reasoning. For one, you make this comparison about AC (you even bring up shield of faith, as if the other guy doesn't have it either) and this is an odd point to mention because this should be a constant with any proper paladin multiclass. Sure, you could have 39 AC-- but so can every other MC. Yes, any paladin can have a +6 aura, and I never claimed this was something special on my behalf but I only mentioned it to refute your dumb assumption that my MCs were rocking low CHA, and again, any MC can have it too.
So, if we're to talk about who's got real know-how on character building, shouldn't this assumption be a given? The only differences you have are in hit die, Lay on Hands points, and features beyond lvl 6. Let's make a practical comparison with a practical assumption: In your typical 1-11 campaign, what does a full paladin have, and what does a MC (let's assume sorcadin with a 6/5 split) have?
Paladin's got an extra d8 on their attacks tacked on, immunity to fear, and their lvl 7 aura, 25 more LoH points, and 10 more HP if both have a +3 CON mod.
MC's got access to two 4th lvl slots, a wider array of spells, meta magic, and several cantrips, and their subclass features.
On the surface it can look like your initial statement, that pure paladins are tankier and "stronger" in the frontlines, holds true. Yes, more HP and LoHs can equate to tankier, but what about the AC? All things considered equal, you won't have the 5 AC from casting Shield. Nor will you have absorb elements. If an enemy's out of reach, the pure paladin's out of luck while the MC has ranged spells or cantrips. If you fail a saving throw, that's it. But if a divine soul fails, maybe they can turn it around with "favored by the gods," and given how much the aura's working, it's not an overstatement to say they just might pull it off. Again, the main point I'm trying to make is that such a multiclass is well worth it and comes online sooner than you think even within t2.
Furthermore, those spells can have real power on an encounter. A well placed hypnotic pattern can have much more sway over how an encounter goes than placing on crusader's mantle on your party does, for example. You can quicken a green flame blade after attacking twice, and yes, you can smite with that same attack too if you really want to for even more damage. Immunity to fear seems cool, but if you're already proficient in WIS saves, and you've got a bomb-ass aura, are you really in danger of falling to fear? Even then, fear isn't the worst thing you can have in an encounter-- it's not game-ending. But even then, most of my MCs consider 11 paladin as a common stopping point. I like those auras, but again, I'm not holding them in high regard because DnD isn't balanced around the inclusion of a paladin. They don't build encounters such that they're impossible without a paladin. With or without auras, the party will always be fine in the end. That's why I don't mind delaying my aura by a level or two, it's not the end of the world if I don't have it by level 6.
However, bud, this comes from a difference in goals. If you want your paladin to have all the auras, and at their maximum 30ft radius with a holy avenger, a multiclass will do little but hamper your progress to that end. Want to heal as much as possible with Lay on Hands? Want to access Cleansing Touch asap? Then don't multiclass. If you want to play a gish that's got heavy armor and martial weapon proficiency, access to battle field control, AoE and ranged spells, then multiclassing is a valid choice. Can the MC do what the pure did with his stat-stick build? No, but neither can the pure do what the MC does. Both, however, can still rock insane AC, both can still achieve incredibly high saves, and both can have melee that's on par with each other.
KhaldoDraigo and cgarciao, you are both very knowledgeable players. There is no right way or wrong way, as long as you are having fun. Respect each other and the other person's knowledge base. You both make interesting points in the forums and are opinions I look forward to reading.
This guy was really worked up. Anyway, if you're coming here now and looking for an opinion on going for three levels of Ranger on a Devotion Paladin to hunt undead, go Gloomstalker. You get the most out of that one. If you're set on Ranger, anyway.
I prefer Swords Bard, though.
I’m sorry if this is redundant, I love multi classing but for out of combat situations mostly. There is a character named Drasek Riven, can someone help (with 10 lvls) to build him?