For goodness sake, we need to stop bragging about the statistics of 20th level characters + Legendary Items + Crits + Spells that other casters are using to buff the PC. What if scenarios don't apply if we want an actual playing field. Ranking things by "power" leads to messy discussions. A wizard who can warp reality possesses more "power" than a fighter with a normal sword. But, the fighter is "powerful" enough to kill the wizard by themself.
I think that the Paladin is good at a great number of things, but is easily outclassed by other classes if we simply look beyond one turn effects. A one in 20 chance for a crit you don't know is coming can be outdone by two turns of action surge. One healing of 100 (at 20th level) can be outdone by two healings totaling 150 (at 13th level). No one can out buff a bard. There is no doubt that paladins are among the best of the D&D classes. This is not because Paladins can deal the most damage overall, deliver the most buffs, or heal the most people, but because the paladin is pretty decent at everything. However, I severely disagree with the claim that Paladins are the best at everything. They have a huge weakness in their lack range. This is my humble opinion.
Also, let's keep this friendly. There is too much aggression happening in this thread for a roleplaying game!
I said earlier in this thread (now likely buried)...paladins like all classes, have strengths and weaknesses. Which is the way we would want it. If one class had everything, everybody would play it and it would be a boring game. We would all end up as "cookie cutters" of each other.
Paladins have strong saves, can do very powerful nova hits at times, but lack enough spell slots to do that regularly. Paladins lack ranged damage, which can make distance fights or combat against aerial opponents problematic. Paladins lay on hands can do a single powerful heal or a bunch of small heals, but paladins aren't truly a healer class. Your party is in trouble if the paladin is being looked at as a main healer. This isn't a World of Warcraft paladin! :)
But overall, paladins have a versatile toolset. They may not be truly the best at a number of things, but they are very versatile in what they can do. If I was going to say what they do best, it wouldn't be damage, it would probably be as a tank. High AC, with excellent HP and auras probably makes paladins one of the best tanks, if not THE best tank imo. Throw in the ability to heal themselves or other melee, if something bad happens...paladins are a very strong contender for "best tank." But I wouldn't say "most powerful" overall, by any means, just too many variables in that, in some fights, the paladin is a liability.
Why are we debating this? Dnd is a role playing game, it's not about power. But I guess the ball is already rolling, so here's my opinion.
First off, to address the 600 damage. You need legendary rarity items, buff spells, all crits, max smites, max possible damage, melee range, and more. I ran some math on the probability, and let's just say that no matter how much you play dnd, the chance it so small it may as well be 0. And in addition, your wrong about it being the only class that can do it. With the right build of wizard, you can actually do in the thousands of damage in a turn, not to mention wish insta killing. However, I do agree that paladin is an extremely good nova damage dealer.
Secondly, 100 heals at level 20? Big woop... It's good for being a very powerful fighter too, but it honestly not that great, especially given that's the entirety of the healing we can do in a day.
Thirdly, it's very hard to talk about "best class" or "worst class". There are far to many factors to analyze. How far away are we? Paladins aren't great at ranged combat. Are we fighting a swarm of weaker opponents or one powerful one? Paladins aren't great at multiple enemy fighting. What about out of combat utility? What about teamwork and synergy? How much "prep time" do we have to prepare? What level are we looking at? All these questions can radically change our analysis of "the best class".
Fourthly, many if the things you mentioned (AC, saving throws, buffs, hp), although paladins are good with all of them, they're not the best. Wizards can get more AC than paladins, basically any full caster can out buff a paladin, ect. Paladins are good at all these, making them versatile, but there not the best at any of them, except maybe nova damage.
Conclusion: I would say paladins are very powerful. If we really wanted to rank the classes, it would for sure be top three. Where in the top three? Hard to say. But it's not at all the all powerful no competition best class you make it out to be. I also feel like I have some experience in this, as someone who has done extensive play testing at all level of play, lots of pvp at many levels of play, and ran quite a bit if math on these sorts of things.
Paladins are weak thematically (goody-two-shoes with swords but hey that's anyone from LOTR's Boromir to MTG's Basiri and Elspeth to any number of Star Trek captains, even any of the Jedi who use a lightsabre in Star Wars... they're paladins, so the role is pretty generic fantasy fighter-with-magic-and-healing). Sure, you can put Picard or Elspeth or Luke Skywalker into a Paladin's sleeves, but if you look at them they're fairly similar characters at base value. All have a cause (for good more often than not), all are helpful but strong and charismatic. Basically, the Paladin class generally caters to only one player type - the Lawful Good Big Healing Fighter with Spells. They lack the thematic versatility of any other class, and so are therefore thematically less diverse and also weaker. That's my theme argument!
I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I've played two different paladins (you might recognize one of them), and both were extremely different characters. My first character, Thurklea, was a snarky lizardfolk watchers paladin who was exiled from her homeland for heresy. My second, Araleia, is a naive and childish darkling elder warfare paladin (homebrew subclass) who's searching for a way to redeem her people. They're immensely different characters with immensely different personalities.
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All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew:Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
Paladins are weak thematically (goody-two-shoes with swords but hey that's anyone from LOTR's Boromir to MTG's Basiri and Elspeth to any number of Star Trek captains, even any of the Jedi who use a lightsabre in Star Wars... they're paladins, so the role is pretty generic fantasy fighter-with-magic-and-healing). Sure, you can put Picard or Elspeth or Luke Skywalker into a Paladin's sleeves, but if you look at them they're fairly similar characters at base value. All have a cause (for good more often than not), all are helpful but strong and charismatic. Basically, the Paladin class generally caters to only one player type - the Lawful Good Big Healing Fighter with Spells. They lack the thematic versatility of any other class, and so are therefore thematically less diverse and also weaker. That's my theme argument!
You see, the thing about arguing 'their theme always creates the same character' is the fact that its not the theme of the class that creates the character, creating a character is up to the player. To argue 'this class doesnt spark my imagination for different characters,' is that really a problem with the class, or does the problem lie in the fact that people are less creative than we give ourselves credit for, and our imaginations are the true limiting factor. The problem isnt the paladin's thematic power, but with the lack of human creativity
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Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
Paladins are weak thematically (goody-two-shoes with swords but hey that's anyone from LOTR's Boromir to MTG's Basiri and Elspeth to any number of Star Trek captains, even any of the Jedi who use a lightsabre in Star Wars... they're paladins, so the role is pretty generic fantasy fighter-with-magic-and-healing). Sure, you can put Picard or Elspeth or Luke Skywalker into a Paladin's sleeves, but if you look at them they're fairly similar characters at base value. All have a cause (for good more often than not), all are helpful but strong and charismatic. Basically, the Paladin class generally caters to only one player type - the Lawful Good Big Healing Fighter with Spells. They lack the thematic versatility of any other class, and so are therefore thematically less diverse and also weaker. That's my theme argument!
You see, the thing about arguing 'their theme always creates the same character' is the fact that its not the theme of the class that creates the character, creating a character is up to the player. To argue 'this class doesnt spark my imagination for different characters,' is that really a problem with the class, or does the problem lie in the fact that people are less creative than we give ourselves credit for, and our imaginations are the true limiting factor. The problem isnt the paladin's thematic power, but with the lack of human creativity
Agreed. Paladins used to be forced into the LG mold, but not anymore. I can even see the roleplay of a good alignment vengeance paladin who feels bad about some of things he does, but does them anyway to keep to his tenets..."no mercy for the wicked" and "by any means necessary." Evil has to be destroyed to save the innocent! Just those two tenets, allow for a lot of roleplay outside of the "goody two shoes" paladin concept. Read conquest paladin, def not your father's paladin imo! lol :)
Paladins are weak thematically (goody-two-shoes with swords but hey that's anyone from LOTR's Boromir to MTG's Basiri and Elspeth to any number of Star Trek captains, even any of the Jedi who use a lightsabre in Star Wars... they're paladins, so the role is pretty generic fantasy fighter-with-magic-and-healing). Sure, you can put Picard or Elspeth or Luke Skywalker into a Paladin's sleeves, but if you look at them they're fairly similar characters at base value. All have a cause (for good more often than not), all are helpful but strong and charismatic. Basically, the Paladin class generally caters to only one player type - the Lawful Good Big Healing Fighter with Spells. They lack the thematic versatility of any other class, and so are therefore thematically less diverse and also weaker. That's my theme argument!
Jedi are probably Psi Warrior fighters with sun blades.
It depends on a lot of things. If you roll for stats and get 16+ in three attributes, then yes the MAD class will outdo most everyone. However, besides that one extreme, they are no more effective than other classes in the games I DM and play.
But taking about a character’s “peak 1 round damage output” is literally the worst metric for anything - especially when it ignores target AC, hit probabilities, skills and abilities needed to get past events, the literal impossibility of rolling max on everything, having spells slots to make it all happen at a target that doesn’t have 3 HP left… Not worth arguing.
Further the most damaging Spell Meteor Swarm maxes out at 240 damage. So no a Bard can not deal more damage than a Paladin.
Why do the paladin get to use perfect rolls, all the crits, and max damage while the one casting meteor swarm cannot?
Maximum roll for a meteor swarm is 240. But that is 240 damage in 4 non overlapping 40 feet (40*40 feet square in 5e) diameters.
With just 2 creatures in each radius we get 1920 damage, and it just keeps going up the more creatures you hit.
Storm of Vengeance (lvl 9 druid spell) can probably also be up high on damage when we get to tailor the scenario with maximum rolls etc.
Just the lightning bolts are 360 damage. Then we have 11d6 extra damage during that time which means 66 damage. This is a total of 756 damage divided at the six bolt targets.
But then you get to do 66 damage to every creature in a 360 feet radius storm. That's a 720 feet square or a grid of 144*144=20736 5 foot squares.
Let's be nice and give some legroom for a big army, let's give every medium creature 50*5 foot squares to themselves. That still means 408 creatures for a total of 26928 damage plus the 756 already dealt to the bolt targets. And that is while giving the creatures a lot of legroom.
If we want to keep strictly to everything happening in one turn then storm of vengeance with lots of legroom is still 12*414=4968 damage. But we could also argue that it is a tight packed army where every creature only gets 4 squares for themselves, then we suddenly have a bit over 5000 creatures for over 60 000 damage. Now sure, this is another scenario that will probably never happen. The math still checks out though.
My point is that calculating theoretical maximums doesn't really say much of anything. The paladin is great at utilizing crits to get extra damage, that is true. But that does not mean we can ignore all the non crits on the way there.
Further the most damaging Spell Meteor Swarm maxes out at 240 damage. So no a Bard can not deal more damage than a Paladin.
Why do the paladin get to use perfect rolls, all the crits, and max damage while the one casting meteor swarm cannot?
Maximum roll for a meteor swarm is 240. But that is 240 damage in 4 non overlapping 40 feet (40*40 feet square in 5e) diameters.
With just 2 creatures in each radius we get 1920 damage, and it just keeps going up the more creatures you hit.
Storm of Vengeance (lvl 9 druid spell) can probably also be up high on damage when we get to tailor the scenario with maximum rolls etc.
Just the lightning bolts are 360 damage. Then we have 11d6 extra damage during that time which means 66 damage. This is a total of 756 damage divided at the six bolt targets.
But then you get to do 66 damage to every creature in a 360 feet radius storm. That's a 720 feet square or a grid of 144*144=20736 5 foot squares.
Let's be nice and give some legroom for a big army, let's give every medium creature 50*5 foot squares to themselves. That still means 408 creatures for a total of 26928 damage plus the 756 already dealt to the bolt targets. And that is while giving the creatures a lot of legroom.
My point is that calculating theoretical maximums doesn't really say much of anything. The paladin is great at utilizing crits to get extra damage, that is true. But that does not mean we can ignore all the non crits on the way there.
This is a very good point. Paladins are probably the most powerful class when fighting a single enemy, like a boss, but they dont get much AoE or large-scale damage, so the other classes can outshine them on that from
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Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
As far as max healing I will give you that Wish heals up to Max Hp. That being said a Paladin can heal an individual up to 100 Hp or 100 people 1 Hp. No other class is capable of doing this.
We can stick to the druid who cast Storm of Vengeance. 18 levels of druid and 2 levels of sorcerer.
The druid converts all lvl 2-8 spells to sorcery points (just keep topping up points when you get low.
You get 2 points from 2 lvls of sorcerer.
You get 2*3+3*3+4*3+5*3+6*2+7*2+8*1=76 sorcery points from converting spell slots.
This gives us a total of 78 sorcery points which you can convert into 39 lvl 1 spell slots for a total of 43 lvl 1 slots.
You use all those slots to cast goodberry for a total of 430 berries that can heal an individual up to 430 Hp or 430 people 1 Hp.
And this is before any feats or items that gives extra slots or sorcery points.
As far as max healing I will give you that Wish heals up to Max Hp. That being said a Paladin can heal an individual up to 100 Hp or 100 people 1 Hp. No other class is capable of doing this.
We can stick to the druid who cast Storm of Vengeance. 18 levels of druid and 2 levels of sorcerer.
The druid converts all lvl 2-8 spells to sorcery points (just keep topping up points when you get low.
You get 2 points from 2 lvls of sorcerer.
You get 2*3+3*3+4*3+5*3+6*2+7*2+8*1=76 sorcery points from converting spell slots.
This gives us a total of 78 sorcery points which you can convert into 39 lvl 1 spell slots for a total of 43 lvl 1 slots.
You use all those slots to cast goodberry for a total of 430 berries that can heal an individual up to 430 Hp or 430 people 1 Hp.
And this is before any feats or items that gives extra slots or sorcery points.
You are mistaken my friend. Please read the Sorcerer again specifically the part about Sorcery Points:
Sorcery Points. You have 2 sorcery points, and you gain more as you reach higher levels, as shown in the Sorcery Points column of the Sorcerer table. You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level. You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a long rest.
So each spell slot above 2nd level that you convert will only turn into 2 Sorcery Points. In short you can create another 17 level 1 spell slots , ie all level 2 or higher spell slots can be converted into level 1 slots plus 1 from the original 2 Sorcery points you start with. Add on the 4 level 1 spell slots you start with and you can cast Goodberry a grand total of 23 times.
If you take Metamagic Adept then you get slightly more mileage with your level 3 slots squeezing out 1 additional level spell slot and your level 4 or higher slots creating an additional 11 to bump your Goodberry output to 34 times. Yes its 34 and not 35 because the extra 2 Sorcery Points you get from the feat can only be used on Metamagics.
As far as max healing I will give you that Wish heals up to Max Hp. That being said a Paladin can heal an individual up to 100 Hp or 100 people 1 Hp. No other class is capable of doing this.
We can stick to the druid who cast Storm of Vengeance. 18 levels of druid and 2 levels of sorcerer.
The druid converts all lvl 2-8 spells to sorcery points (just keep topping up points when you get low.
You get 2 points from 2 lvls of sorcerer.
You get 2*3+3*3+4*3+5*3+6*2+7*2+8*1=76 sorcery points from converting spell slots.
This gives us a total of 78 sorcery points which you can convert into 39 lvl 1 spell slots for a total of 43 lvl 1 slots.
You use all those slots to cast goodberry for a total of 430 berries that can heal an individual up to 430 Hp or 430 people 1 Hp.
And this is before any feats or items that gives extra slots or sorcery points.
You are mistaken my friend. Please read the Sorcerer again specifically the part about Sorcery Points:
Sorcery Points. You have 2 sorcery points, and you gain more as you reach higher levels, as shown in the Sorcery Points column of the Sorcerer table. You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level. You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a long rest.
So each spell slot above 2nd level that you convert will only turn into 2 Sorcery Points. In short you can create another 17 level 1 spell slots , ie all level 2 or higher spell slots can be converted into level 1 slots plus 1 from the original 2 Sorcery points you start with. Add on the 4 level 1 spell slots you start with and you can cast Goodberry a grand total of 23 times.
If you take Metamagic Adept then you get slightly more mileage with your level 3 slots squeezing out 1 additional level spell slot and your level 4 or higher slots creating an additional 11 to bump your Goodberry output to 34 times. Yes its 34 and not 35 because the extra 2 Sorcery Points you get from the feat can only be used on Metamagics.
Well, this is wrong. The proposed thing is possible but would take some time. What you do is that you spend the sorcery points as you go to then be able to create more sorcery points.
How is it wrong? From where I sit it says you cannot have more Sorcery Points than shown on the table for your level. Sorcerer 2 will have 2 points max. You can convert higher level spell slots to points but from what I'm reading you cannot get more than 2 Points per slot.
As far as max healing I will give you that Wish heals up to Max Hp. That being said a Paladin can heal an individual up to 100 Hp or 100 people 1 Hp. No other class is capable of doing this.
We can stick to the druid who cast Storm of Vengeance. 18 levels of druid and 2 levels of sorcerer.
The druid converts all lvl 2-8 spells to sorcery points (just keep topping up points when you get low.
You get 2 points from 2 lvls of sorcerer.
You get 2*3+3*3+4*3+5*3+6*2+7*2+8*1=76 sorcery points from converting spell slots.
This gives us a total of 78 sorcery points which you can convert into 39 lvl 1 spell slots for a total of 43 lvl 1 slots.
You use all those slots to cast goodberry for a total of 430 berries that can heal an individual up to 430 Hp or 430 people 1 Hp.
And this is before any feats or items that gives extra slots or sorcery points.
You are mistaken my friend. Please read the Sorcerer again specifically the part about Sorcery Points:
Sorcery Points. You have 2 sorcery points, and you gain more as you reach higher levels, as shown in the Sorcery Points column of the Sorcerer table. You can never have more sorcery points than shown on the table for your level. You regain all spent sorcery points when you finish a long rest.
So each spell slot above 2nd level that you convert will only turn into 2 Sorcery Points. In short you can create another 17 level 1 spell slots , ie all level 2 or higher spell slots can be converted into level 1 slots plus 1 from the original 2 Sorcery points you start with. Add on the 4 level 1 spell slots you start with and you can cast Goodberry a grand total of 23 times.
If you take Metamagic Adept then you get slightly more mileage with your level 3 slots squeezing out 1 additional level spell slot and your level 4 or higher slots creating an additional 11 to bump your Goodberry output to 34 times. Yes its 34 and not 35 because the extra 2 Sorcery Points you get from the feat can only be used on Metamagics.
Good catch!
My bad. I completely igored that e only woudl have 2 lvls of sorcerer when converting slots. But even as is it would be more 1hp heals than a paladin and we could always swap to more levels of sorcerer instead of druid and use meteor swarm for the massive aoe instead.
Basicaly any full spellcaster that can cast goodberry through slots will have more 1hp heals to dish out than a paladin.
Paladins are well rounded, doing well in most everything but not being the absolute best in anything.
They are great in all aspects of melee, they have healing and passive buffs for the party, and some spell utility.
But they lack ranged options, their spell list isn't that versatile, and being really good melee combatants means burning through spell slots for smites rather than spells.
I'd say what makes them truly exceptional is how dialed in all of their abilities are for the melee fighter role. All their abilities make them good at taking damage, pushing through spell effects, and spending resources to deal out damage. There isn't really much in the class that isn't directly contributing to that one purpose.
Is this still going on? If we really need more evidence that paladins are not by far the most powerful class, here's some evidence. I still stand by my above post, but here's some more if we really need it:
So I said that the 600 damage stuff's not going it happen, and that I did math on it. I guess I didn't show the math, so here it is:
For this 600+ damage to work, we need all crits, and max damage on dice, along with all the right buffs, facing the right enemy, and whatever else. We'll ignore how hard it is to get all these things and just look at the probability of getting this.
First, the chance of getting a crit is 1 in 20, or 5%. Since these 4 crits are independent events, the chance of them all critting is just each chance multiplied by each other, which is 1 in 160000, or only 0.000625% chance! Even that is rare, but it just get's worse from here.
We have 2d12 + 2d8 + 12d8 + 10d10 damage dice. Each one of these are independent events, so we again multiply. It's 1 in 12 (8.3%) x 1 in 12 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 10 (10%) x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10, for a total probability of... 1 in 15663773000000000000000000 or 0.000000000000000000000001566377% chance!!
Then both the critting and rolling max are independent events, so we multiply those together! This give us a final probability of 1 in 93982635000000000000000000000000, or a 0.000000000000000000000000000009% chance!!! This is such a low chance that it's hard to even comprehend. If every human on earth did this every second for a century, there would still be only about a 1 in 1000000000000 chance of it happening!!! This is such an unlikely event that you may as well count it as impossible. If someone did this, I would seriously look into seeing if the dice were rigged. It just doesn't happen.
I also said wizards can do more damage, without explaining how. There are at least three instant kill strats I know of with wizard, but let's just focus on raw damage for now.
Either wait until next turn or use fighter's action surge if you willing to take a dip into fighter to cast reverse gravity on the enemies. They will fall up through the layers, taking damage from all of them twice because it's a sphere.
Step three:
immediately end concentration on reverse gravity, causing them to fall through all the layers twice more, plus take fall damage.
This means, assuming failure on all saves and max damage like you did for paladin, 210d6, plus blinded and restrained. That's a max of 1260 damage, and two conditions, with an average of 735! That's right, this strat averages more than the paladin's maximum, with only using a 7th and 9th level spell lots, and no need for legendary magic item or crtis!
Lastly, paladin is a very good nova damage dealer and can have very good saves and AC, along with the ability to bestow minor buffs and heal a bit. This does make it good. But not every class focuses on the same things. So the fact that paladins can do it's main things better than other classes doesn't mean it's a better class. Most full casters make better battlefield controllers, are better in utility type situations, and are better at multiple target damage. Does this make them better? No. It just makes them different. Same goes for paladin.
Is this still going on? If we really need more evidence that paladins are not by far the most powerful class, here's some evidence. I still stand by my above post, but here's some more if we really need it:
So I said that the 600 damage stuff's not going it happen, and that I did math on it. I guess I didn't show the math, so here it is:
For this 600+ damage to work, we need all crits, and max damage on dice, along with all the right buffs, facing the right enemy, and whatever else. We'll ignore how hard it is to get all these things and just look at the probability of getting this.
First, the chance of getting a crit is 1 in 20, or 5%. Since these 4 crits are independent events, the chance of them all critting is just each chance multiplied by each other, which is 1 in 160000, or only 0.000625% chance! Even that is rare, but it just get's worse from here.
We have 2d12 + 2d8 + 12d8 + 10d10 damage dice. Each one of these are independent events, so we again multiply. It's 1 in 12 (8.3%) x 1 in 12 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 10 (10%) x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10, for a total probability of... 1 in 15663773000000000000000000 or 0.000000000000000000000001566377% chance!!
Then both the critting and rolling max are independent events, so we multiply those together! This give us a final probability of 1 in 93982635000000000000000000000000, or a 0.000000000000000000000000000009% chance!!! This is such a low chance that it's hard to even comprehend. If every human on earth did this every second for a century, there would still be only about a 1 in 1000000000000 chance of it happening!!! This is such an unlikely event that you may as well count it as impossible. If someone did this, I would seriously look into seeing if the dice were rigged. It just doesn't happen.
Earlier in the thread, I started doing the math of rolling max damage on everything...but stopped when I realized you have a much, much, much greater chance of winning the Mega Millions lottery, than you do of rolling max damage on everything in the example! And even that is massively understating how far removed the chance of rolling all those max damages and the to hit, let alone the crit. Be closer to having to win several lotteries, at the same time. All of that says...never going to happen.
It makes far more sense to look at the average, rather than max damage, which will never happen.
Is this still going on? If we really need more evidence that paladins are not by far the most powerful class, here's some evidence. I still stand by my above post, but here's some more if we really need it:
So I said that the 600 damage stuff's not going it happen, and that I did math on it. I guess I didn't show the math, so here it is:
For this 600+ damage to work, we need all crits, and max damage on dice, along with all the right buffs, facing the right enemy, and whatever else. We'll ignore how hard it is to get all these things and just look at the probability of getting this.
First, the chance of getting a crit is 1 in 20, or 5%. Since these 4 crits are independent events, the chance of them all critting is just each chance multiplied by each other, which is 1 in 160000, or only 0.000625% chance! Even that is rare, but it just get's worse from here.
We have 2d12 + 2d8 + 12d8 + 10d10 damage dice. Each one of these are independent events, so we again multiply. It's 1 in 12 (8.3%) x 1 in 12 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 10 (10%) x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10, for a total probability of... 1 in 15663773000000000000000000 or 0.000000000000000000000001566377% chance!!
Then both the critting and rolling max are independent events, so we multiply those together! This give us a final probability of 1 in 93982635000000000000000000000000, or a 0.000000000000000000000000000009% chance!!! This is such a low chance that it's hard to even comprehend. If every human on earth did this every second for a century, there would still be only about a 1 in 1000000000000 chance of it happening!!! This is such an unlikely event that you may as well count it as impossible. If someone did this, I would seriously look into seeing if the dice were rigged. It just doesn't happen.
It makes far more sense to look at the average, rather than max damage, which will never happen.
It's true. I mainly just calculated the chance because it was fun, and the creator of the thread threw around the 600 damage thing too much IMO.
Is this still going on? If we really need more evidence that paladins are not by far the most powerful class, here's some evidence. I still stand by my above post, but here's some more if we really need it:
So I said that the 600 damage stuff's not going it happen, and that I did math on it. I guess I didn't show the math, so here it is:
For this 600+ damage to work, we need all crits, and max damage on dice, along with all the right buffs, facing the right enemy, and whatever else. We'll ignore how hard it is to get all these things and just look at the probability of getting this.
First, the chance of getting a crit is 1 in 20, or 5%. Since these 4 crits are independent events, the chance of them all critting is just each chance multiplied by each other, which is 1 in 160000, or only 0.000625% chance! Even that is rare, but it just get's worse from here.
We have 2d12 + 2d8 + 12d8 + 10d10 damage dice. Each one of these are independent events, so we again multiply. It's 1 in 12 (8.3%) x 1 in 12 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 10 (10%) x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10, for a total probability of... 1 in 15663773000000000000000000 or 0.000000000000000000000001566377% chance!!
Then both the critting and rolling max are independent events, so we multiply those together! This give us a final probability of 1 in 93982635000000000000000000000000, or a 0.000000000000000000000000000009% chance!!! This is such a low chance that it's hard to even comprehend. If every human on earth did this every second for a century, there would still be only about a 1 in 1000000000000 chance of it happening!!! This is such an unlikely event that you may as well count it as impossible. If someone did this, I would seriously look into seeing if the dice were rigged. It just doesn't happen.
It makes far more sense to look at the average, rather than max damage, which will never happen.
It's true. I mainly just calculated the chance because it was fun, and the creator of the thread threw around the 600 damage thing too much IMO.
Yeah, I wasn't saying you were doing that. In fact, your post definitively proves how ludicrous it is to look at the max damage possible. I get it. :)
Back in my original comment, when I started doing the math that you finished...I said that averaging the damage is a much better way to look at something like this. For every 1d8, just add in 4.5...and on and on. Averages give us a much better picture of where it will be. Considering the number of dice cast, it probably ends up fairly close to the average.
Artificers can get better saves, full spell casters get better spells, Bards have access to the Paladin's best spells long before Paladin does and Druids can be more tanky.
And rogues can match the damage output without having to burn through spell slots.
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I said earlier in this thread (now likely buried)...paladins like all classes, have strengths and weaknesses. Which is the way we would want it. If one class had everything, everybody would play it and it would be a boring game. We would all end up as "cookie cutters" of each other.
Paladins have strong saves, can do very powerful nova hits at times, but lack enough spell slots to do that regularly. Paladins lack ranged damage, which can make distance fights or combat against aerial opponents problematic. Paladins lay on hands can do a single powerful heal or a bunch of small heals, but paladins aren't truly a healer class. Your party is in trouble if the paladin is being looked at as a main healer. This isn't a World of Warcraft paladin! :)
But overall, paladins have a versatile toolset. They may not be truly the best at a number of things, but they are very versatile in what they can do. If I was going to say what they do best, it wouldn't be damage, it would probably be as a tank. High AC, with excellent HP and auras probably makes paladins one of the best tanks, if not THE best tank imo. Throw in the ability to heal themselves or other melee, if something bad happens...paladins are a very strong contender for "best tank." But I wouldn't say "most powerful" overall, by any means, just too many variables in that, in some fights, the paladin is a liability.
Why are we debating this? Dnd is a role playing game, it's not about power. But I guess the ball is already rolling, so here's my opinion.
First off, to address the 600 damage. You need legendary rarity items, buff spells, all crits, max smites, max possible damage, melee range, and more. I ran some math on the probability, and let's just say that no matter how much you play dnd, the chance it so small it may as well be 0. And in addition, your wrong about it being the only class that can do it. With the right build of wizard, you can actually do in the thousands of damage in a turn, not to mention wish insta killing. However, I do agree that paladin is an extremely good nova damage dealer.
Secondly, 100 heals at level 20? Big woop... It's good for being a very powerful fighter too, but it honestly not that great, especially given that's the entirety of the healing we can do in a day.
Thirdly, it's very hard to talk about "best class" or "worst class". There are far to many factors to analyze. How far away are we? Paladins aren't great at ranged combat. Are we fighting a swarm of weaker opponents or one powerful one? Paladins aren't great at multiple enemy fighting. What about out of combat utility? What about teamwork and synergy? How much "prep time" do we have to prepare? What level are we looking at? All these questions can radically change our analysis of "the best class".
Fourthly, many if the things you mentioned (AC, saving throws, buffs, hp), although paladins are good with all of them, they're not the best. Wizards can get more AC than paladins, basically any full caster can out buff a paladin, ect. Paladins are good at all these, making them versatile, but there not the best at any of them, except maybe nova damage.
Conclusion: I would say paladins are very powerful. If we really wanted to rank the classes, it would for sure be top three. Where in the top three? Hard to say. But it's not at all the all powerful no competition best class you make it out to be. I also feel like I have some experience in this, as someone who has done extensive play testing at all level of play, lots of pvp at many levels of play, and ran quite a bit if math on these sorts of things.
(Sorry for the wall of text...)
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I'm going to have to disagree with you there. I've played two different paladins (you might recognize one of them), and both were extremely different characters. My first character, Thurklea, was a snarky lizardfolk watchers paladin who was exiled from her homeland for heresy. My second, Araleia, is a naive and childish darkling elder warfare paladin (homebrew subclass) who's searching for a way to redeem her people. They're immensely different characters with immensely different personalities.
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You see, the thing about arguing 'their theme always creates the same character' is the fact that its not the theme of the class that creates the character, creating a character is up to the player. To argue 'this class doesnt spark my imagination for different characters,' is that really a problem with the class, or does the problem lie in the fact that people are less creative than we give ourselves credit for, and our imaginations are the true limiting factor. The problem isnt the paladin's thematic power, but with the lack of human creativity
Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
Agreed. Paladins used to be forced into the LG mold, but not anymore. I can even see the roleplay of a good alignment vengeance paladin who feels bad about some of things he does, but does them anyway to keep to his tenets..."no mercy for the wicked" and "by any means necessary." Evil has to be destroyed to save the innocent! Just those two tenets, allow for a lot of roleplay outside of the "goody two shoes" paladin concept. Read conquest paladin, def not your father's paladin imo! lol :)
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It depends on a lot of things. If you roll for stats and get 16+ in three attributes, then yes the MAD class will outdo most everyone. However, besides that one extreme, they are no more effective than other classes in the games I DM and play.
But taking about a character’s “peak 1 round damage output” is literally the worst metric for anything - especially when it ignores target AC, hit probabilities, skills and abilities needed to get past events, the literal impossibility of rolling max on everything, having spells slots to make it all happen at a target that doesn’t have 3 HP left… Not worth arguing.
Why do the paladin get to use perfect rolls, all the crits, and max damage while the one casting meteor swarm cannot?
Maximum roll for a meteor swarm is 240. But that is 240 damage in 4 non overlapping 40 feet (40*40 feet square in 5e) diameters.
With just 2 creatures in each radius we get 1920 damage, and it just keeps going up the more creatures you hit.
Storm of Vengeance (lvl 9 druid spell) can probably also be up high on damage when we get to tailor the scenario with maximum rolls etc.
Just the lightning bolts are 360 damage. Then we have 11d6 extra damage during that time which means 66 damage. This is a total of 756 damage divided at the six bolt targets.
But then you get to do 66 damage to every creature in a 360 feet radius storm. That's a 720 feet square or a grid of 144*144=20736 5 foot squares.
Let's be nice and give some legroom for a big army, let's give every medium creature 50*5 foot squares to themselves. That still means 408 creatures for a total of 26928 damage plus the 756 already dealt to the bolt targets. And that is while giving the creatures a lot of legroom.
If we want to keep strictly to everything happening in one turn then storm of vengeance with lots of legroom is still 12*414=4968 damage. But we could also argue that it is a tight packed army where every creature only gets 4 squares for themselves, then we suddenly have a bit over 5000 creatures for over 60 000 damage. Now sure, this is another scenario that will probably never happen. The math still checks out though.
My point is that calculating theoretical maximums doesn't really say much of anything. The paladin is great at utilizing crits to get extra damage, that is true. But that does not mean we can ignore all the non crits on the way there.
This is a very good point. Paladins are probably the most powerful class when fighting a single enemy, like a boss, but they dont get much AoE or large-scale damage, so the other classes can outshine them on that from
Enethia is running a library, Kalnor is with one of his friends(Likely Mithris), Mali is making an elixir, Asari is sad, Ink is dying in Kalnoia, Nox is dead, Zal is eating cheese fries, Tefeerinn is experiencing fuller life, Shardia is watching the safehouse, Mabij is prepping for a trial, Hrakor is running from prophesy, Viperitahk is locked in a strange battle, Void is watching, Redd is writing all of these. See the EXTENSION for the rest
We can stick to the druid who cast Storm of Vengeance. 18 levels of druid and 2 levels of sorcerer.
The druid converts all lvl 2-8 spells to sorcery points (just keep topping up points when you get low.
You get 2 points from 2 lvls of sorcerer.
You get 2*3+3*3+4*3+5*3+6*2+7*2+8*1=76 sorcery points from converting spell slots.
This gives us a total of 78 sorcery points which you can convert into 39 lvl 1 spell slots for a total of 43 lvl 1 slots.
You use all those slots to cast goodberry for a total of 430 berries that can heal an individual up to 430 Hp or 430 people 1 Hp.
And this is before any feats or items that gives extra slots or sorcery points.
You are mistaken my friend. Please read the Sorcerer again specifically the part about Sorcery Points:
So each spell slot above 2nd level that you convert will only turn into 2 Sorcery Points. In short you can create another 17 level 1 spell slots , ie all level 2 or higher spell slots can be converted into level 1 slots plus 1 from the original 2 Sorcery points you start with. Add on the 4 level 1 spell slots you start with and you can cast Goodberry a grand total of 23 times.
If you take Metamagic Adept then you get slightly more mileage with your level 3 slots squeezing out 1 additional level spell slot and your level 4 or higher slots creating an additional 11 to bump your Goodberry output to 34 times. Yes its 34 and not 35 because the extra 2 Sorcery Points you get from the feat can only be used on Metamagics.
Well, this is wrong. The proposed thing is possible but would take some time. What you do is that you spend the sorcery points as you go to then be able to create more sorcery points.
How is it wrong? From where I sit it says you cannot have more Sorcery Points than shown on the table for your level. Sorcerer 2 will have 2 points max. You can convert higher level spell slots to points but from what I'm reading you cannot get more than 2 Points per slot.
Good catch!
My bad. I completely igored that e only woudl have 2 lvls of sorcerer when converting slots. But even as is it would be more 1hp heals than a paladin and we could always swap to more levels of sorcerer instead of druid and use meteor swarm for the massive aoe instead.
Basicaly any full spellcaster that can cast goodberry through slots will have more 1hp heals to dish out than a paladin.
Paladins are well rounded, doing well in most everything but not being the absolute best in anything.
They are great in all aspects of melee, they have healing and passive buffs for the party, and some spell utility.
But they lack ranged options, their spell list isn't that versatile, and being really good melee combatants means burning through spell slots for smites rather than spells.
I'd say what makes them truly exceptional is how dialed in all of their abilities are for the melee fighter role. All their abilities make them good at taking damage, pushing through spell effects, and spending resources to deal out damage. There isn't really much in the class that isn't directly contributing to that one purpose.
Is this still going on? If we really need more evidence that paladins are not by far the most powerful class, here's some evidence. I still stand by my above post, but here's some more if we really need it:
So I said that the 600 damage stuff's not going it happen, and that I did math on it. I guess I didn't show the math, so here it is:
For this 600+ damage to work, we need all crits, and max damage on dice, along with all the right buffs, facing the right enemy, and whatever else. We'll ignore how hard it is to get all these things and just look at the probability of getting this.
First, the chance of getting a crit is 1 in 20, or 5%. Since these 4 crits are independent events, the chance of them all critting is just each chance multiplied by each other, which is 1 in 160000, or only 0.000625% chance! Even that is rare, but it just get's worse from here.
We have 2d12 + 2d8 + 12d8 + 10d10 damage dice. Each one of these are independent events, so we again multiply. It's 1 in 12 (8.3%) x 1 in 12 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 (12.5%) x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 8 x 1 in 10 (10%) x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10 x 1 in 10, for a total probability of... 1 in 15663773000000000000000000 or 0.000000000000000000000001566377% chance!!
Then both the critting and rolling max are independent events, so we multiply those together! This give us a final probability of 1 in 93982635000000000000000000000000, or a 0.000000000000000000000000000009% chance!!! This is such a low chance that it's hard to even comprehend. If every human on earth did this every second for a century, there would still be only about a 1 in 1000000000000 chance of it happening!!! This is such an unlikely event that you may as well count it as impossible. If someone did this, I would seriously look into seeing if the dice were rigged. It just doesn't happen.
I also said wizards can do more damage, without explaining how. There are at least three instant kill strats I know of with wizard, but let's just focus on raw damage for now.
Step one:
prismatic wall as a sphere above the enemy's heads.
Step two:
Either wait until next turn or use fighter's action surge if you willing to take a dip into fighter to cast reverse gravity on the enemies. They will fall up through the layers, taking damage from all of them twice because it's a sphere.
Step three:
immediately end concentration on reverse gravity, causing them to fall through all the layers twice more, plus take fall damage.
This means, assuming failure on all saves and max damage like you did for paladin, 210d6, plus blinded and restrained. That's a max of 1260 damage, and two conditions, with an average of 735! That's right, this strat averages more than the paladin's maximum, with only using a 7th and 9th level spell lots, and no need for legendary magic item or crtis!
Lastly, paladin is a very good nova damage dealer and can have very good saves and AC, along with the ability to bestow minor buffs and heal a bit. This does make it good. But not every class focuses on the same things. So the fact that paladins can do it's main things better than other classes doesn't mean it's a better class. Most full casters make better battlefield controllers, are better in utility type situations, and are better at multiple target damage. Does this make them better? No. It just makes them different. Same goes for paladin.
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Earlier in the thread, I started doing the math of rolling max damage on everything...but stopped when I realized you have a much, much, much greater chance of winning the Mega Millions lottery, than you do of rolling max damage on everything in the example! And even that is massively understating how far removed the chance of rolling all those max damages and the to hit, let alone the crit. Be closer to having to win several lotteries, at the same time. All of that says...never going to happen.
It makes far more sense to look at the average, rather than max damage, which will never happen.
It's true. I mainly just calculated the chance because it was fun, and the creator of the thread threw around the 600 damage thing too much IMO.
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Yeah, I wasn't saying you were doing that. In fact, your post definitively proves how ludicrous it is to look at the max damage possible. I get it. :)
Back in my original comment, when I started doing the math that you finished...I said that averaging the damage is a much better way to look at something like this. For every 1d8, just add in 4.5...and on and on. Averages give us a much better picture of where it will be. Considering the number of dice cast, it probably ends up fairly close to the average.
And rogues can match the damage output without having to burn through spell slots.
This isn't actually a signature, just something I copy and paste onto the bottom of all my posts. Or is it? Yep, it is. Or is it..? I’m a hobbit, and the master cranial imploder of the "Oops, I Accidently Destroyed Someone's Brain" cult. Extended sig. I'm actually in Limbo, it says I'm in Mechanus because that's where I get my WiFi from. Please don't tell the modrons, they're still angry from the 'Spawning Stone' fiasco.
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