Absolutely the most powerful, at least at low levels, to the point where it annoys me. Their tankiness and damage output is almost on par with Fighters. Their burst damage (with Smites) is almost on par with Rogues. And their healing is up there with Clerics, at least when "whack-a-mole" combat is considered. They cover all the bases (except Wizardy stuff like AOE).
As a DM, the way to counter this is just simply give them several combat encounters a day. So if they blow all their resources and spell slots, they can't just smite everything into the ground. This may teach them to choose carefully whether they want to keep a spell slot or two in reserve.
And that's just good advice in general. 5e is balanced around a minimum of 3 encounters a long rest (and if it's 3, they should all be Deadly). If you only do one, players will either (A) steamroll it in a couple rounds or (B) be Fighters, Warlocks, or another "attrition" class built around consistent, non-burst damage and abilities that recharge on short rests, in which case they feel useless. Please, DMs, don't run one-encounter days.
Also for those wonder absolute max damage a Paladin can deal in a single turn here is your build.
Scourge Aasimar
Vengeance Paladin
Hammer of Thunderbolts
Belt of Cloud Giant Strength
Great Weapon Master.
Scourge Aasimar deals 30 extra damage a turn. Vengeance Paladin allows for 3 attacks. Belt of Cloud Giant Strength boost you to 27 STR. Hammer of Thunderbolts boosts you to 30 STR Great Weapon Master adds +10 damage a hit, and a third attack on a bonus action.
To address yall asking when I say maximum damage it is not avg roles. It is max. Yes this is not likely but it is the potential. The maximum damage a Paladin can deal is one two crits.
Further I made a mistake in my previous statement as I factored in if a Paladin had 4 attacks which is possible. The correct number on rolls and only using a longsword is 456
Banishing smite can be cast on the previous turn as a prepatory action. On the turn of the attack after your first attack you use your bonus action to cast Banishing smite again. This will give you 16d8+10d10. On a dual crit you get 32d8+20d10 which equals 456. Mind you again this is a longswords not GWM.
If you had 3 attacks from Haste this becomes 584 before modifiers (Vengence Paladin)
If you add +15 from just a +5 str and no weapon modifiers this becomes 481 and 609. The numbers only go up from there.
Not arguing your numbers, but isn't average DPR more useful than a potential max damage, that will never happen? The chances of rolling a double crit, then rolling all max die rolls is probably equal to your chances of winning the lottery. :)
edit - I just started doing the numbers...you have a far better chance of winning the Powerball!
Oh i know its an absolute long shot im not saying it isnt but it is entirely possible and when talking single most damage a turn it is worth of showing.
The problem I have with this is that you when you were saying damage in 1 turn I assumed it was 1 turn, the fact that you need a turn (to activate Aasimar ability and cast Banishing Smite) to setup this nova turn is a bit misleading. You give a Fighter 2 turns to do damage they can eclipse that 600 damage with ease.
I mean if you take the same items and GWM with a Samurai on 1 turn they can do per hit (assuming max damage rolls and crits) 4d6 (Hammer of Thunderbolts maul damage) + 1 (Hammer modifier) + 10 (STR modifier) + 10 (GWM) = 45. With Action Surge the Samurai can do 9 attacks (using Rapid Strike and Fighting Spirit) a turn so over 2 turns thats 18 attacks which comes in at 810 damage.
Wish? Monk? That's kinda going off on a tangent. Power isn't measured in how you "autokill." Otherwise we'd be singing praise of the aforementioned monk, and we all sure as hell don't. Even using wish to kill some one is subject to DM fiat and may end up back firing.
Since OP still hasn't defined "most powerful class" it is definitely not "going of on a tangent, don't be silly. Especially since OP has focused most of their arguments on maximum damage which, as has been pointed out, is irrelevant in certain situations. The Monk is also one of teh best classes in the game, that is correct but again, it all comes down to how you define "most powerful". Since OP still hasn't done that, this discussion will just go round and round since everyone will have their own idea of what "most powerful" means.
Paladins are good at doing large single target damage. But something like AOE can easily outclass the overall damage a paladin can do. Spellcasters and archers can do serious damage from range also. Range that paladins lack. Khal's example is of the damage a level 20 character can do. But lots of classes can do obscene damage at high levels. Have a Meteor Swarm hit a dozen enemies and see what that damage is? At level 20, everybody is super powerful imo.
Wish? Monk? That's kinda going off on a tangent. Power isn't measured in how you "autokill." Otherwise we'd be singing praise of the aforementioned monk, and we all sure as hell don't. Even using wish to kill some one is subject to DM fiat and may end up back firing.
Since OP still hasn't defined "most powerful class" it is definitely not "going of on a tangent, don't be silly. Especially since OP has focused most of their arguments on maximum damage which, as has been pointed out, is irrelevant in certain situations. The Monk is also one of teh best classes in the game, that is correct but again, it all comes down to how you define "most powerful". Since OP still hasn't done that, this discussion will just go round and round since everyone will have their own idea of what "most powerful" means.
Look, this is a discussion. Even if OP gave his definition of most powerful class, that's not for him to decide entirely and we can argue on different aspects and facets of power and make our case and potentially gain insight in doing so. I've given my own two cents on the matter, stating that as far as martials go, they have copious amounts of safety and utility with serviceable damage. Sure, a paladin might not ever out damage a fighter, but that's not why people cherish paladins.
Paladins are good at doing large single target damage. But something like AOE can easily outclass the overall damage a paladin can do. Spellcasters and archers can do serious damage from range also. Range that paladins lack. Khal's example is of the damage a level 20 character can do. But lots of classes can do obscene damage at high levels. Have a Meteor Swarm hit a dozen enemies and see what that damage is? At level 20, everybody is super powerful imo.
Wish? Monk? That's kinda going off on a tangent. Power isn't measured in how you "autokill." Otherwise we'd be singing praise of the aforementioned monk, and we all sure as hell don't. Even using wish to kill some one is subject to DM fiat and may end up back firing.
Since OP still hasn't defined "most powerful class" it is definitely not "going of on a tangent, don't be silly. Especially since OP has focused most of their arguments on maximum damage which, as has been pointed out, is irrelevant in certain situations. The Monk is also one of teh best classes in the game, that is correct but again, it all comes down to how you define "most powerful". Since OP still hasn't done that, this discussion will just go round and round since everyone will have their own idea of what "most powerful" means.
Look, this is a discussion. Even if OP gave his definition of most powerful class, that's not for him to decide entirely and we can argue on different aspects and facets of power and make our case and potentially gain insight in doing so. I've given my own two cents on the matter, stating that as far as martials go, they have copious amounts of safety and utility with serviceable damage. Sure, a paladin might not ever out damage a fighter, but that's not why people cherish paladins.
And again, it's a pointless discussion if we aren't discussing the same topic. You do realize this don't you? It's like saying "which is the best car" and I say "it's the land rover defender, since it is rugged and can drive in all sorts of terrain" and you say "no, it's a tesla roadster because it is fast and electrical". Neither of us are wrong but the discussion is pointless since we use different definitions. To actually have a meaningful conversation you have to define what the discussion is about. For example "which is the best car to drive across the US form coast to coast using only non-paved road" might be a better topic, if that is what you want to discuss. But without a proper definition you will never get a proper discussion. Case in point, this sidetrack that you started.
And of course it is up to OP to decide what their thread is about. Are you seriously suggesting that it is totally fine to just hijack someone's thread and start changing the topic willy-nilly?
Paladins are the most OP class in Van Richten's campaign, and any campaign involving darkers/evilish/feys and any chaotil evil mob. Also if the party lacks in self-esteem, you can blame the bard for not doing fine his/her job, huh ??? xD
The problem I have with this is that you when you were saying damage in 1 turn I assumed it was 1 turn, the fact that you need a turn (to activate Aasimar ability and cast Banishing Smite) to setup this nova turn is a bit misleading. You give a Fighter 2 turns to do damage they can eclipse that 600 damage with ease.
I mean if you take the same items and GWM with a Samurai on 1 turn they can do per hit (assuming max damage rolls and crits) 4d6 (Hammer of Thunderbolts maul damage) + 1 (Hammer modifier) + 10 (STR modifier) + 10 (GWM) = 45. With Action Surge the Samurai can do 9 attacks (using Rapid Strike and Fighting Spirit) a turn so over 2 turns thats 18 attacks which comes in at 810 damage.
First hammer of thurnderbolts is 2d6 not 4d6
Actually no its not misleading. I said single turn damage dealt. The damage is all dealt in a single turn and is not dealt over two turns like your example. But let me defeat my own argument for you. There is one thing that actually defeats my argument on single turn damage, there is only one subclass that can deal more damage than any other class in the game as the amount of attacks it has is literally limited to the amount of enemies that move with in its reach and that only belongs to the Cavalier. Mind you that if you filled up a 30ft radius with the exception of one free space to allow movement, a Cavalier could make 167 attacks on top of its normal attack action and action surge. Only factoring the other 167 attacks and assuming each enemy had 20 hp well a Cavalier could deal 3,324 damage in a single turn with creature in a 30ft radius. Mind you I'm not doing max damage on this as even if the enemy's had 6hp the Cavalier still deals more damage than any one class in a turn. Further a Paladin over those same two turns would out damage your fighter because of smites if the Paladin was attacking those two turns. If you don't understand what preparatory actions are that are done before going into an encounter I can not help you.
Over two turns of attacking with out activating the Scourge Aasimar ability this is what a Paladin would deal assuming max damage rolls and crits with out even using Banishing Smite.
24d6+82d8+126=926
So ummm yeah nice making 18 attacks but a Paladin took 6 attacks to do more damage sooooooo........ my point still stands.
On to another point Lostwhilefishing this is what a discussion is it is comparing the Paladin to all the other classes. As you seem to not grasp that or the context on what I provided in term that is not solely related to damage I can not help you and will not waist my time trying to explain it to you. Further your blatant misrepresentation of Spell or abilities has not gone unnoticed.
The Wish spell can not auto kill some one period. It is up to a DM what you wish and if a DM allows you to get these types of wishes that is a shitty DM as there are major consequences for using the Wish spell and the more you deviate from the parameters of the spell the greater they are.
Additionally the Open Hand Monk can not auto kill someone either. Its ability is entirely dependent on a Constitution Save to do as such and does not negate spells like Death Ward or abilities that has a character return to a single hit point. A Constitution saving throw of 18 or 19 and is entirely with in the realms of a Paladin succeeding on even rolling a 1 because 1's as critical fails per the standard rules only apply to weapon attacks.
You are entirely wrong on a Circle of Spores druid having more HP. It uses Temp HP points which do not stack. And the most it can have is 80. Compared to a Circle of Moon which can indefinitely shift into an elemental, with at most 126 hp, at lvl 20 the Spores druid does not compare. Further it is so far behind what a Barbarians HP can be especially when factoring Bear Totems, which because of resistance to almost everything can be as much as 650 Hp with resistance factored in.
Further the most damaging Spell Meteor Swarm maxes out at 240 damage. So no a Bard can not deal more damage than a Paladin.
At this point pretty much everything you said is either flat out wrong or a mischaracterization of what is being said.
As much as myself and Cgarciao butted heads in our opinions on multiclassing, I find us agreeing on alot more than we disagree. This is a discussion as I literally asked what peoples opinions were on this and to put them forward. You seem convinced that I, the OP, am the one that has to put exact parameters on a discussion. I do not as what my opinion is is not the defacto decision in the discussion but the one possing the question to be discussed.
Also for whoever said that a Paladins Nova damage is almost comparable to a rogues. The most a rogue can deal is using sneak attack as an assassin using Death Strike. Assuming max damage and crits the most damage sneak attack brings to the table is:
20d6 doubled
Which amounts to 240 damage.
When Compared to a Paladin making 2 attacks, that has not prepared by casting banishing smite before the encounter, assuming max damage roles and crits
28d8+10d10
Which comes out to 324
If they prepared thats an extra 10d10 added to the damage for 424.
Paladins deal a far higher nova damage than a Rogue does. Rogues deal more consistent nova damage.
The problem I have with this is that you when you were saying damage in 1 turn I assumed it was 1 turn, the fact that you need a turn (to activate Aasimar ability and cast Banishing Smite) to setup this nova turn is a bit misleading. You give a Fighter 2 turns to do damage they can eclipse that 600 damage with ease.
I mean if you take the same items and GWM with a Samurai on 1 turn they can do per hit (assuming max damage rolls and crits) 4d6 (Hammer of Thunderbolts maul damage) + 1 (Hammer modifier) + 10 (STR modifier) + 10 (GWM) = 45. With Action Surge the Samurai can do 9 attacks (using Rapid Strike and Fighting Spirit) a turn so over 2 turns thats 18 attacks which comes in at 810 damage.
First hammer of thurnderbolts is 2d6 not 4d6
Actually no its not misleading. I said single turn damage dealt. The damage is all dealt in a single turn and is not dealt over two turns like your example. But let me defeat my own argument for you. There is one thing that actually defeats my argument on single turn damage, there is only one subclass that can deal more damage than any other class in the game as the amount of attacks it has is literally limited to the amount of enemies that move with in its reach and that only belongs to the Cavalier. Mind you that if you filled up a 30ft radius with the exception of one free space to allow movement, a Cavalier could make 167 attacks on top of its normal attack action and action surge. Only factoring the other 167 attacks and assuming each enemy had 20 hp well a Cavalier could deal 3,324 damage in a single turn with creature in a 30ft radius. Mind you I'm not doing max damage on this as even if the enemy's had 6hp the Cavalier still deals more damage than any one class in a turn. Further a Paladin over those same two turns would out damage your fighter because of smites if the Paladin was attacking those two turns. If you don't understand what preparatory actions are that are done before going into an encounter I can not help you.
Over two turns of attacking with out activating the Scourge Aasimar ability this is what a Paladin would deal assuming max damage rolls and crits with out even using Banishing Smite.
24d6+82d8+126=926
So ummm yeah nice making 18 attacks but a Paladin took 6 attacks to do more damage sooooooo........ my point still stands.
On to another point Lostwhilefishing this is what a discussion is it is comparing the Paladin to all the other classes. As you seem to not grasp that or the context on what I provided in term that is not solely related to damage I can not help you and will not waist my time trying to explain it to you. Further your blatant misrepresentation of Spell or abilities has not gone unnoticed.
The Wish spell can not auto kill some one period. It is up to a DM what you wish and if a DM allows you to get these types of wishes that is a shitty DM as there are major consequences for using the Wish spell and the more you deviate from the parameters of the spell the greater they are.
Additionally the Open Hand Monk can not auto kill someone either. Its ability is entirely dependent on a Constitution Save to do as such and does not negate spells like Death Ward or abilities that has a character return to a single hit point. A Constitution saving throw of 18 or 19 and is entirely with in the realms of a Paladin succeeding on even rolling a 1 because 1's as critical fails per the standard rules only apply to weapon attacks.
You are entirely wrong on a Circle of Spores druid having more HP. It uses Temp HP points which do not stack. And the most it can have is 80. Compared to a Circle of Moon which can indefinitely shift into an elemental, with at most 126 hp, at lvl 20 the Spores druid does not compare. Further it is so far behind what a Barbarians HP can be especially when factoring Bear Totems, which because of resistance to almost everything can be as much as 650 Hp with resistance factored in.
Further the most damaging Spell Meteor Swarm maxes out at 240 damage. So no a Bard can not deal more damage than a Paladin.
At this point pretty much everything you said is either flat out wrong or a mischaracterization of what is being said.
As much as myself and Cgarciao butted heads in our opinions on multiclassing, I find us agreeing on alot more than we disagree. This is a discussion as I literally asked what peoples opinions were on this and to put them forward. You seem convinced that I, the OP, am the one that has to put exact parameters on a discussion. I do not as what my opinion is is not the defacto decision in the discussion but the one possing the question to be discussed.
Firstly I was never arguing about the rest of the Paladins abilities. I was merely taken aback by your claim of over 600 damage a turn which turns out to be only semi true as you needed an additional turn to setup.
Secondly please actually read my post, I said per hit assuming crit so a crit from a Hammer of Thunderbolts does 4d6 which I see you used for your math but conveniently call my math wrong.
Again I have no interest in arguing about whether the Paladin is the best class, just wanted to understand the claim of 600+damage a turn.
On to another point Lostwhilefishing this is what a discussion is it is comparing the Paladin to all the other classes.
Yes, but you still haven't told us what it is that you actually want to compare and why and how you measure the value of the things you comapre, making the entire thing a pointless task. Your fixation with damage is meaningless in a game of courtly intrigue with no combat and you haven't even touched upon the paladin's lacking ability to stealth or that it's one of the most MAD classes in 5E. Instead, you seemmore interested in cherry picking the aspects that you think is "best" (again, without telling us why those things are "best") and ognoring everything else.
As you seem to not grasp that or the context on what I provided in term that is not solely related to damage I can not help you and will not waist my time trying to explain it to you.
Well, that is rather rude and childish of you. If you had botehred to read the thread you would have noticed that there are numerous things that the Paldin is in fact not the best of. Are you just going to ignore that?
Further your blatant misrepresentation of Spell or abilities has not gone unnoticed.
Bless you heart, you think accurate describing something is misrepresenting it? That's nice.
The Wish spell can not auto kill some one period.
Of course it can. Please quote the rule (book, page and paragraph) that says that the wish spell can't kill anyone.
It is up to a DM what you wish
Oh, so the Wish spell can kill someone? Excellent!
and if a DM allows you to get these types of wishes that is a shitty DM as there are major consequences for using the Wish spell and the more you deviate from the parameters of the spell the greater they are.
The quality of the DM is irrelevant to the fact that the Wish spell ca kill someone. I never mentioned any potential consequences so you can drop that strawman right away. Not that that has anything to do with the fact that Wish can kill someone, but anyways.
Additionally the Open Hand Monk can not auto kill someone either. Its ability is entirely dependent on a Constitution Save to do as such and does not negate spells like Death Ward or abilities that has a character return to a single hit point. A Constitution saving throw of 18 or 19 and is entirely with in the realms of a Paladin succeeding on even rolling a 1 because 1's as critical fails per the standard rules only apply to weapon attacks.
Who said that it is the Paladin who has to take the saving throw? Is this all of teh sudden a PvP discussion? Yes, the OHM is relying on a failed save but you paladin's nova damage (which, again, isn't really a paladin thing since you took much of the damage from other sources than paladin abilities) is worthless if you can't hit the target due to high AC or it simply being too far away for the paladin to hit. Which again brings us back to your complete lack of parameters for this discussion.
You are entirely wrong on a Circle of Spores druid having more HP.
Good thing I never claimed that they have more HP then, did you even read what I wrote?
It uses Temp HP points which do not stack.
Yeah? Did anyone claim they did? If not, why are you bringing this up?
And the most it can have is 80.
Well, 80 temp HP per turn. You did read the rules for Spore Druids, didn't you?
Compared to a Circle of Moon which can indefinitely shift into an elemental, with at most 126 hp, at lvl 20 the Spores druid does not compare.
Well, you are factually wrong. A Spore Druid with Con 16 (not unlikely for a 20th level Druid) will have 160 HP (assuming tehy take the avergae 5HP per level + con bonus) plus 80 temp HP each turn so even the base spore druid is better than the elemental. That's at least 240 HP for as long as your opponent doesn't do more than 80 points of damage in one turn.
Further it is so far behind what a Barbarians HP can be especially when factoring Bear Totems, which because of resistance to almost everything can be as much as 650 Hp with resistance factored in.
Oh look, another case of which the Paladin isn't best! :)
Further the most damaging Spell Meteor Swarm maxes out at 240 damage. So no a Bard can not deal more damage than a Paladin.
Bards have Wish, so yes. And a meteor swarm hitting multiple opponents will be cause more damage than even your made up nova paladin. Again you are factually incorrect.
At this point pretty much everything you said is either flat out wrong or a mischaracterization of what is being said.
Not really, no. Your faulty assumptions and strawmen are wrong but that's not my fault, that's on you. Maybe you should read up on the PHB and other sourcebooks a bit? Or at least tell us how you define "most powerful class"? That would probably help.
As much as myself and Cgarciao butted heads in our opinions on multiclassing, I find us agreeing on alot more than we disagree. This is a discussion as I literally asked what peoples opinions were on this and to put them forward. You seem convinced that I, the OP, am the one that has to put exact parameters on a discussion. I do not as what my opinion is is not the defacto decision in the discussion but the one possing the question to be discussed.
Again, to have a meaningful discussion and to at least know what it is you are asking us our opinions on you have to tell us what that the parametrs of the question you're "possing" is. As it stands now you haven't asked us for opinions, you asked a factual question that can't be answered without a proper definition and as has also been showed, you are objectively wrong in most of the claims you have made.
Who here thinks Paladin's are the most powerful class in D&D?
Paladins have the Highest Saves
Artificers and Monks disagree, unless you're making assumptions you haven't stated.
and can extend those saves to others, have immunities to diseases,
Immunity to disease doesn't generally matter in most campaigns. The Paladin +CHA to Saves aura is the best class ability in the game, in my opinion.
can extend other immunities to others, have options from almost every other class,
Bards are broadly speaking the best at this, although this gets watered down as other classes continue to get access to spells outside of their own spell lists.
can deal the most single round damage,
The highest average DPR during a nova belongs to Fighters. If you're using a different definition of most single round damage, I would need to know it to respond to this.
can heal the most
Incorrect for both single and multi-target healing, unless you're using a very different definition of "heal the most". This throne is contested, to be sure, but at high levels, the answer to "who can heal the most?" is "anyone with Wish", meaning the ultimate throne holder is Genielocks, as they have infinite wishes via simulacrum.
and the least at will with a touch, and can have the highest HP and AC combined of any other class.
Depends on definition, but Druids are at the top of this contest (infinite hp at level 20). Artificers are otherwise at the top of this throne.
Finally an additional point towards this. Paladins are the only class in all of D&D that can loose their powers because they dont follow their ideals. No other class has it stated that they can permanently loose their powers.
Swarmkeepers have this, for example, but unlike with Paladins, odds seem good it's due to poor rules writing.
What is everyone's opinion on this? What would you say is the most powerful subclass?
The most powerful subclasses are Peace and Twilight (from Cleric) and Genie (from Warlock), and the most powerful classes are Warlock (due to Genielock and Cocainelock), Bard, and Wizard.
The problem I have with this is that you when you were saying damage in 1 turn I assumed it was 1 turn, the fact that you need a turn (to activate Aasimar ability and cast Banishing Smite) to setup this nova turn is a bit misleading. You give a Fighter 2 turns to do damage they can eclipse that 600 damage with ease.
I mean if you take the same items and GWM with a Samurai on 1 turn they can do per hit (assuming max damage rolls and crits) 4d6 (Hammer of Thunderbolts maul damage) + 1 (Hammer modifier) + 10 (STR modifier) + 10 (GWM) = 45. With Action Surge the Samurai can do 9 attacks (using Rapid Strike and Fighting Spirit) a turn so over 2 turns thats 18 attacks which comes in at 810 damage.
First hammer of thurnderbolts is 2d6 not 4d6
Actually no its not misleading. I said single turn damage dealt. The damage is all dealt in a single turn and is not dealt over two turns like your example. But let me defeat my own argument for you. There is one thing that actually defeats my argument on single turn damage, there is only one subclass that can deal more damage than any other class in the game as the amount of attacks it has is literally limited to the amount of enemies that move with in its reach and that only belongs to the Cavalier. Mind you that if you filled up a 30ft radius with the exception of one free space to allow movement, a Cavalier could make 167 attacks on top of its normal attack action and action surge. Only factoring the other 167 attacks and assuming each enemy had 20 hp well a Cavalier could deal 3,324 damage in a single turn with creature in a 30ft radius. Mind you I'm not doing max damage on this as even if the enemy's had 6hp the Cavalier still deals more damage than any one class in a turn. Further a Paladin over those same two turns would out damage your fighter because of smites if the Paladin was attacking those two turns. If you don't understand what preparatory actions are that are done before going into an encounter I can not help you.
Over two turns of attacking with out activating the Scourge Aasimar ability this is what a Paladin would deal assuming max damage rolls and crits with out even using Banishing Smite.
24d6+82d8+126=926
So ummm yeah nice making 18 attacks but a Paladin took 6 attacks to do more damage sooooooo........ my point still stands.
On to another point Lostwhilefishing this is what a discussion is it is comparing the Paladin to all the other classes. As you seem to not grasp that or the context on what I provided in term that is not solely related to damage I can not help you and will not waist my time trying to explain it to you. Further your blatant misrepresentation of Spell or abilities has not gone unnoticed.
The Wish spell can not auto kill some one period. It is up to a DM what you wish and if a DM allows you to get these types of wishes that is a shitty DM as there are major consequences for using the Wish spell and the more you deviate from the parameters of the spell the greater they are.
Additionally the Open Hand Monk can not auto kill someone either. Its ability is entirely dependent on a Constitution Save to do as such and does not negate spells like Death Ward or abilities that has a character return to a single hit point. A Constitution saving throw of 18 or 19 and is entirely with in the realms of a Paladin succeeding on even rolling a 1 because 1's as critical fails per the standard rules only apply to weapon attacks.
You are entirely wrong on a Circle of Spores druid having more HP. It uses Temp HP points which do not stack. And the most it can have is 80. Compared to a Circle of Moon which can indefinitely shift into an elemental, with at most 126 hp, at lvl 20 the Spores druid does not compare. Further it is so far behind what a Barbarians HP can be especially when factoring Bear Totems, which because of resistance to almost everything can be as much as 650 Hp with resistance factored in.
Further the most damaging Spell Meteor Swarm maxes out at 240 damage. So no a Bard can not deal more damage than a Paladin.
At this point pretty much everything you said is either flat out wrong or a mischaracterization of what is being said.
As much as myself and Cgarciao butted heads in our opinions on multiclassing, I find us agreeing on alot more than we disagree. This is a discussion as I literally asked what peoples opinions were on this and to put them forward. You seem convinced that I, the OP, am the one that has to put exact parameters on a discussion. I do not as what my opinion is is not the defacto decision in the discussion but the one possing the question to be discussed.
Firstly I was never arguing about the rest of the Paladins abilities. I was merely taken aback by your claim of over 600 damage a turn which turns out to be only semi true as you needed an additional turn to setup.
Secondly please actually read my post, I said per hit assuming crit so a crit from a Hammer of Thunderbolts does 4d6 which I see you used for your math but conveniently call my math wrong.
Again I have no interest in arguing about whether the Paladin is the best class, just wanted to understand the claim of 600+damage a turn.
My apologies I thought you were listing damage and doubling it later. I also didn't say your math was wrong, in fact I didn't state anything about it being wrong just pointed out the Hammer of Thunderbolts damage. So please do not accuse me of something I did not do.
On to another point Lostwhilefishing this is what a discussion is it is comparing the Paladin to all the other classes.
Yes, but you still haven't told us what it is that you actually want to compare and why and how you measure the value of the things you comapre, making the entire thing a pointless task. Your fixation with damage is meaningless in a game of courtly intrigue with no combat and you haven't even touched upon the paladin's lacking ability to stealth or that it's one of the most MAD classes in 5E. Instead, you seemmore interested in cherry picking the aspects that you think is "best" (again, without telling us why those things are "best") and ognoring everything else.
As you seem to not grasp that or the context on what I provided in term that is not solely related to damage I can not help you and will not waist my time trying to explain it to you.
Well, that is rather rude and childish of you. If you had botehred to read the thread you would have noticed that there are numerous things that the Paldin is in fact not the best of. Are you just going to ignore that?
Further your blatant misrepresentation of Spell or abilities has not gone unnoticed.
Bless you heart, you think accurate describing something is misrepresenting it? That's nice.
The Wish spell can not auto kill some one period.
Of course it can. Please quote the rule (book, page and paragraph) that says that the wish spell can't kill anyone.
It is up to a DM what you wish
Oh, so the Wish spell can kill someone? Excellent!
and if a DM allows you to get these types of wishes that is a shitty DM as there are major consequences for using the Wish spell and the more you deviate from the parameters of the spell the greater they are.
The quality of the DM is irrelevant to the fact that the Wish spell ca kill someone. I never mentioned any potential consequences so you can drop that strawman right away. Not that that has anything to do with the fact that Wish can kill someone, but anyways.
Additionally the Open Hand Monk can not auto kill someone either. Its ability is entirely dependent on a Constitution Save to do as such and does not negate spells like Death Ward or abilities that has a character return to a single hit point. A Constitution saving throw of 18 or 19 and is entirely with in the realms of a Paladin succeeding on even rolling a 1 because 1's as critical fails per the standard rules only apply to weapon attacks.
Who said that it is the Paladin who has to take the saving throw? Is this all of teh sudden a PvP discussion? Yes, the OHM is relying on a failed save but you paladin's nova damage (which, again, isn't really a paladin thing since you took much of the damage from other sources than paladin abilities) is worthless if you can't hit the target due to high AC or it simply being too far away for the paladin to hit. Which again brings us back to your complete lack of parameters for this discussion.
You are entirely wrong on a Circle of Spores druid having more HP.
Good thing I never claimed that they have more HP then, did you even read what I wrote?
It uses Temp HP points which do not stack.
Yeah? Did anyone claim they did? If not, why are you bringing this up?
And the most it can have is 80.
Well, 80 temp HP per turn. You did read the rules for Spore Druids, didn't you?
Compared to a Circle of Moon which can indefinitely shift into an elemental, with at most 126 hp, at lvl 20 the Spores druid does not compare.
Well, you are factually wrong. A Spore Druid with Con 16 (not unlikely for a 20th level Druid) will have 160 HP (assuming tehy take the avergae 5HP per level + con bonus) plus 80 temp HP each turn so even the base spore druid is better than the elemental. That's at least 240 HP for as long as your opponent doesn't do more than 80 points of damage in one turn.
Further it is so far behind what a Barbarians HP can be especially when factoring Bear Totems, which because of resistance to almost everything can be as much as 650 Hp with resistance factored in.
Oh look, another case of which the Paladin isn't best! :)
Further the most damaging Spell Meteor Swarm maxes out at 240 damage. So no a Bard can not deal more damage than a Paladin.
Bards have Wish, so yes. And a meteor swarm hitting multiple opponents will be cause more damage than even your made up nova paladin. Again you are factually incorrect.
At this point pretty much everything you said is either flat out wrong or a mischaracterization of what is being said.
Not really, no. Your faulty assumptions and strawmen are wrong but that's not my fault, that's on you. Maybe you should read up on the PHB and other sourcebooks a bit? Or at least tell us how you define "most powerful class"? That would probably help.
As much as myself and Cgarciao butted heads in our opinions on multiclassing, I find us agreeing on alot more than we disagree. This is a discussion as I literally asked what peoples opinions were on this and to put them forward. You seem convinced that I, the OP, am the one that has to put exact parameters on a discussion. I do not as what my opinion is is not the defacto decision in the discussion but the one possing the question to be discussed.
Again, to have a meaningful discussion and to at least know what it is you are asking us our opinions on you have to tell us what that the parametrs of the question you're "possing" is. As it stands now you haven't asked us for opinions, you asked a factual question that can't be answered without a proper definition and as has also been showed, you are objectively wrong in most of the claims you have made.
First I'm going to address you stating "Good thing I never claimed that they have more HP then, did you even read what I wrote?"
You absolutely did bring it up. How about you stop lying now. Your very first post on the thread you quote me directly referring to Barbarians and the Circle of the Moon Druid stating the following:
"Well, you are wrong about the druids. Circle of the Spore can easily out-HP pretty much anyone."
Additionally do not accuse me of not understanding how a character works when you clearly have just shown that you have zero understanding of what was just mentioned. A Circle of the Moon Druid at lvl 20 can Wild Shape in to a different Elemental every single turn if it wishes. All of the Elementals have between 90-126 HP. Last I checked 90 HP is higher than 80. Either that or you really do not understand how wild shape works. So let me explain it. If a Circle of the Moon Druid wild shapes into a Earth Elemental and that Elemental is reduced to exactly 0 hp from damage taken the druid still has full HP. So no matter what constitution modifier you want to use a Circle of the Moon Druid has more HP. So again as I stated you are misrepresenting abilities and it has not gone unnoticed.
You have repeatedly accused me of not reading what you wrote when you still have no understood my very first post. I did not ever say Paladin have the Highest HP. I said they have the Highest HP and AC combined. If you want to accuse someone of not reading what was written look in the mirror as it is clearly stated in my very first post.
Ok so I put together a build where a Paladin can deal over 900 damage and you say its coming from other sources, I use only the Paladin's abilities and you ignore it. A Paladin can still deal over 600 damage a turn using only Smite and Banishing Smite with out adding modifiers. Which is far more than what the next Nova damaging dealing class, Rogue, can deal in single round damage. Further these other sources you claim are the same sources that the Samurai is using as well. However they are making 3 times as many attacks and sill dealing less damage. You remove the weapon and the feat and it changes nothing.
Strawman argument? Its not a strawman or faulty assumptions when you have been routinely trying to make an argument that other classes have higher HP even though it is not what I said. It is not strawmanning or faulty assumptions when you make a statement directly connected to a quote about a Circle of a Moon and Barbarian and then say a Circle of Spores has more Hp and then lie about ever saying it. It is not Strawmanning or faulty assumption when you dont even understand how Wild Shape works, let alone how a Circle of Moon Druid can use it and accuse someone else of not understanding an ability.
Finally at this point I'm going to say you're not welcome in this discussion any more for flat out lying about abilities, not reading what was stated, and continuing to derail an open discussion thread on the topic by constantly demanding something that not a single person has stated is a requirement.
Who here thinks Paladin's are the most powerful class in D&D?
Paladins have the Highest Saves
Artificers and Monks disagree, unless you're making assumptions you haven't stated.
and can extend those saves to others, have immunities to diseases,
Immunity to disease doesn't generally matter in most campaigns. The Paladin +CHA to Saves aura is the best class ability in the game, in my opinion.
can extend other immunities to others, have options from almost every other class,
Bards are broadly speaking the best at this, although this gets watered down as other classes continue to get access to spells outside of their own spell lists.
can deal the most single round damage,
The highest average DPR during a nova belongs to Fighters. If you're using a different definition of most single round damage, I would need to know it to respond to this.
can heal the most
Incorrect for both single and multi-target healing, unless you're using a very different definition of "heal the most". This throne is contested, to be sure, but at high levels, the answer to "who can heal the most?" is "anyone with Wish", meaning the ultimate throne holder is Genielocks, as they have infinite wishes via simulacrum.
and the least at will with a touch, and can have the highest HP and AC combined of any other class.
Depends on definition, but Druids are at the top of this contest (infinite hp at level 20). Artificers are otherwise at the top of this throne.
Finally an additional point towards this. Paladins are the only class in all of D&D that can loose their powers because they dont follow their ideals. No other class has it stated that they can permanently loose their powers.
Swarmkeepers have this, for example, but unlike with Paladins, odds seem good it's due to poor rules writing.
What is everyone's opinion on this? What would you say is the most powerful subclass?
The most powerful subclasses are Peace and Twilight (from Cleric) and Genie (from Warlock), and the most powerful classes are Warlock (due to Genielock and Cocainelock), Bard, and Wizard.
To keep this simple we are only going to use official rulings. As such no you can not infinitely cast Wish via Simulacrum. Per Adventure League FAQ:
You Are You; and So Is He. If a simulacrum you have created casts wish, both you and your simulacrum suffer the stress associated with casting the spell—including the risk of being forever unable to cast wish again. The inability to cast wish extends to any simulacrum you create in the future.
I stated top HP and AC combined. Not one or the other but combined.
The only Fighter that can deal more damage in a single turn is a Cavalier and only because it has as many attacks as there are enemies that move in its reach. Other than that a fighter deals higher damage over time but that was not my statement.
A Paladin does not extend Divine health (immunity to disease) to other. It can extend Immunity to fear and depending on subclass charm or what ever 7th lvl Aura that subclass has and unless a Bard can extend Immunities to two things simultaneously to upwards of 168 others (the amount of 5ft squares in a 30ft aura) than no they are not.
Show examples of Artificers and Monks, further does this extend to others all the time or as a reaction.
As far as max healing I will give you that Wish heals up to Max Hp. That being said a Paladin can heal an individual up to 100 Hp or 100 people 1 Hp. No other class is capable of doing this.
Finally nothing attached to the Swarmkeeper remotely states that they loose their abilities for going against anything. All it does is state where they get their powers from. Conversely it directly states that Paladins can directly loose their powers for violating their Oath.
On to another point Lostwhilefishing this is what a discussion is it is comparing the Paladin to all the other classes.
Yes, but you still haven't told us what it is that you actually want to compare and why and how you measure the value of the things you comapre, making the entire thing a pointless task. Your fixation with damage is meaningless in a game of courtly intrigue with no combat and you haven't even touched upon the paladin's lacking ability to stealth or that it's one of the most MAD classes in 5E. Instead, you seemmore interested in cherry picking the aspects that you think is "best" (again, without telling us why those things are "best") and ognoring everything else.
As you seem to not grasp that or the context on what I provided in term that is not solely related to damage I can not help you and will not waist my time trying to explain it to you.
Well, that is rather rude and childish of you. If you had botehred to read the thread you would have noticed that there are numerous things that the Paldin is in fact not the best of. Are you just going to ignore that?
Further your blatant misrepresentation of Spell or abilities has not gone unnoticed.
Bless you heart, you think accurate describing something is misrepresenting it? That's nice.
The Wish spell can not auto kill some one period.
Of course it can. Please quote the rule (book, page and paragraph) that says that the wish spell can't kill anyone.
It is up to a DM what you wish
Oh, so the Wish spell can kill someone? Excellent!
and if a DM allows you to get these types of wishes that is a shitty DM as there are major consequences for using the Wish spell and the more you deviate from the parameters of the spell the greater they are.
The quality of the DM is irrelevant to the fact that the Wish spell ca kill someone. I never mentioned any potential consequences so you can drop that strawman right away. Not that that has anything to do with the fact that Wish can kill someone, but anyways.
Additionally the Open Hand Monk can not auto kill someone either. Its ability is entirely dependent on a Constitution Save to do as such and does not negate spells like Death Ward or abilities that has a character return to a single hit point. A Constitution saving throw of 18 or 19 and is entirely with in the realms of a Paladin succeeding on even rolling a 1 because 1's as critical fails per the standard rules only apply to weapon attacks.
Who said that it is the Paladin who has to take the saving throw? Is this all of teh sudden a PvP discussion? Yes, the OHM is relying on a failed save but you paladin's nova damage (which, again, isn't really a paladin thing since you took much of the damage from other sources than paladin abilities) is worthless if you can't hit the target due to high AC or it simply being too far away for the paladin to hit. Which again brings us back to your complete lack of parameters for this discussion.
You are entirely wrong on a Circle of Spores druid having more HP.
Good thing I never claimed that they have more HP then, did you even read what I wrote?
It uses Temp HP points which do not stack.
Yeah? Did anyone claim they did? If not, why are you bringing this up?
And the most it can have is 80.
Well, 80 temp HP per turn. You did read the rules for Spore Druids, didn't you?
Compared to a Circle of Moon which can indefinitely shift into an elemental, with at most 126 hp, at lvl 20 the Spores druid does not compare.
Well, you are factually wrong. A Spore Druid with Con 16 (not unlikely for a 20th level Druid) will have 160 HP (assuming tehy take the avergae 5HP per level + con bonus) plus 80 temp HP each turn so even the base spore druid is better than the elemental. That's at least 240 HP for as long as your opponent doesn't do more than 80 points of damage in one turn.
Further it is so far behind what a Barbarians HP can be especially when factoring Bear Totems, which because of resistance to almost everything can be as much as 650 Hp with resistance factored in.
Oh look, another case of which the Paladin isn't best! :)
Further the most damaging Spell Meteor Swarm maxes out at 240 damage. So no a Bard can not deal more damage than a Paladin.
Bards have Wish, so yes. And a meteor swarm hitting multiple opponents will be cause more damage than even your made up nova paladin. Again you are factually incorrect.
At this point pretty much everything you said is either flat out wrong or a mischaracterization of what is being said.
Not really, no. Your faulty assumptions and strawmen are wrong but that's not my fault, that's on you. Maybe you should read up on the PHB and other sourcebooks a bit? Or at least tell us how you define "most powerful class"? That would probably help.
As much as myself and Cgarciao butted heads in our opinions on multiclassing, I find us agreeing on alot more than we disagree. This is a discussion as I literally asked what peoples opinions were on this and to put them forward. You seem convinced that I, the OP, am the one that has to put exact parameters on a discussion. I do not as what my opinion is is not the defacto decision in the discussion but the one possing the question to be discussed.
Again, to have a meaningful discussion and to at least know what it is you are asking us our opinions on you have to tell us what that the parametrs of the question you're "possing" is. As it stands now you haven't asked us for opinions, you asked a factual question that can't be answered without a proper definition and as has also been showed, you are objectively wrong in most of the claims you have made.
First I'm going to address you stating "Good thing I never claimed that they have more HP then, did you even read what I wrote?"
You absolutely did bring it up.
Again, please read what I actually wrote. If you can't understand, please just ask instead of making pointless strawman arguments. I said that "Circle of the Spore can easily out-HP pretty much anyone" which most people who have a basic grasp of the rules and how Spore Druids can give themselves 80 THP each turn understands is something completely different from your false claim that I said that "Circle of Spores druid having more HP". Being able to replenish their THP is a way to out-HP other classes.
How about you stop lying now.
Well, I haven't lied so no. Just because you don't understand people does not mean that they are lying, it means that you need to learn.
Your very first post on the thread you quote me directly referring to Barbarians and the Circle of the Moon Druid stating the following:
"Well, you are wrong about the druids. Circle of the Spore can easily out-HP pretty much anyone."
Which, as I have already pointed out, is not the same as saying that they have more normal HP than other classes, which you falsely and erroneously claimed I said in one of your many strawmen.
Additionally do not accuse me of not understanding how a character works when you clearly have just shown that you have zero understanding of what was just mentioned.
Kettle, pot, black and all that. :)
A Circle of the Moon Druid at lvl 20 can Wild Shape in to a different Elemental every single turn if it wishes. All of the Elementals have between 90-126 HP. Last I checked 90 HP is higher than 80.
Yes, but gaining Temporary hitpoints doesn't mean that you lose your ordinary hitpoints, you do know that, right? But yes, not only Spore druids but also Moon druis are more powerful than Paladins on that front, that is correct.
Either that or you really do not understand how wild shape works. So let me explain it. If a Circle of the Moon Druid wild shapes into a Earth Elemental and that Elemental is reduced to exactly 0 hp from damage taken the druid still has full HP. So no matter what constitution modifier you want to use a Circle of the Moon Druid has more HP. So again as I stated you are misrepresenting abilities and it has not gone unnoticed.
How nice that you notice things. Maybe you should also try to understand them? Or at least ask when you clearly don't? I'd be happy to answer any questions you have as soon as you answer the one I asked you. :)
You have repeatedly accused me of not reading what you wrote when you still have no understood my very first post. I did not ever say Paladin have the Highest HP. I said they have the Highest HP and AC combined. If you want to accuse someone of not reading what was written look in the mirror as it is clearly stated in my very first post.
I never said that you said that Paladins have the "Highest HP" (not sure why you felt the need to capitalize that, but you do you), I asked for a definition on "the most powerful class" since without it any discussion is meaningless.
Ok so I put together a build where a Paladin can deal over 900 damage and you say its coming from other sources, I use only the Paladin's abilities and you ignore it. A Paladin can still deal over 600 damage a turn using only Smite and Banishing Smite with out adding modifiers. Which is far more than what the next Nova damaging dealing class, Rogue, can deal in single round damage. Further these other sources you claim are the same sources that the Samurai is using as well. However they are making 3 times as many attacks and sill dealing less damage. You remove the weapon and the feat and it changes nothing.
Again, you really need to read what people has written. I have never once mentioned the Samurai. But that discussion that you had with a comepletely different person than me shows exactly why you should define what you mean by "the most powerful class" since different people have different measures. Your nova damage won't help you if you are up against one hundred kobolds, a meteor swarm will, or at least might.
Strawman argument? Its not a strawman or faulty assumptions when you have been routinely trying to make an argument that other classes have higher HP even though it is not what I said. It is not strawmanning or faulty assumptions when you make a statement directly connected to a quote about a Circle of a Moon and Barbarian and then say a Circle of Spores has more Hp and then lie about ever saying it. It is not Strawmanning or faulty assumption when you dont even understand how Wild Shape works, let alone how a Circle of Moon Druid can use it and accuse someone else of not understanding an ability.
Well, actually all of those things you claim that I did despite it not being so is a perfect example of strawmanning.
Finally at this point I'm going to say you're not welcome in this discussion any more for flat out lying about abilities, not reading what was stated, and continuing to derail an open discussion thread on the topic by constantly demanding something that not a single person has stated is a requirement.
Bless you heart, that's not very polite of you. I haven't demanded anything, I have asked a simple question that is vital for the discussion. If that question was too difficult for you to answer you could have just said so. But sure, if you want an answer to the stated question "Paladin's[sic!] Are they the most powerful class?" then the objective answer is no. Have a good one!
For goodness sake, we need to stop bragging about the statistics of 20th level characters + Legendary Items + Crits + Spells that other casters are using to buff the PC. What if scenarios don't apply if we want an actual playing field. Ranking things by "power" leads to messy discussions. A wizard who can warp reality possesses more "power" than a fighter with a normal sword. But, the fighter is "powerful" enough to kill the wizard by themself.
I think that the Paladin is good at a great number of things, but is easily outclassed by other classes if we simply look beyond one turn effects. A one in 20 chance for a crit you don't know is coming can be outdone by two turns of action surge. One healing of 100 (at 20th level) can be outdone by two healings totaling 150 (at 13th level). No one can out buff a bard. There is no doubt that paladins are among the best of the D&D classes. This is not because Paladins can deal the most damage overall, deliver the most buffs, or heal the most people, but because the paladin is pretty decent at everything. However, I severely disagree with the claim that Paladins are the best at everything. They have a huge weakness in their lack range. This is my humble opinion.
Also, let's keep this friendly. There is too much aggression happening in this thread for a roleplaying game!
Finally nothing attached to the Swarmkeeper remotely states that they loose their abilities for going against anything. All it does is state where they get their powers from. Conversely it directly states that Paladins can directly loose their powers for violating their Oath.
Until you die, the swarm remains in your space, crawling on you or flying and skittering around you within your space.
And they have no mechanic for getting the swarm back on res.
Absolutely the most powerful, at least at low levels, to the point where it annoys me. Their tankiness and damage output is almost on par with Fighters. Their burst damage (with Smites) is almost on par with Rogues. And their healing is up there with Clerics, at least when "whack-a-mole" combat is considered. They cover all the bases (except Wizardy stuff like AOE).
And that's just good advice in general. 5e is balanced around a minimum of 3 encounters a long rest (and if it's 3, they should all be Deadly). If you only do one, players will either (A) steamroll it in a couple rounds or (B) be Fighters, Warlocks, or another "attrition" class built around consistent, non-burst damage and abilities that recharge on short rests, in which case they feel useless. Please, DMs, don't run one-encounter days.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Most powerful belongs to wizards. Bar none.
But, Paladin is the best hero class imho.
The problem I have with this is that you when you were saying damage in 1 turn I assumed it was 1 turn, the fact that you need a turn (to activate Aasimar ability and cast Banishing Smite) to setup this nova turn is a bit misleading. You give a Fighter 2 turns to do damage they can eclipse that 600 damage with ease.
I mean if you take the same items and GWM with a Samurai on 1 turn they can do per hit (assuming max damage rolls and crits) 4d6 (Hammer of Thunderbolts maul damage) + 1 (Hammer modifier) + 10 (STR modifier) + 10 (GWM) = 45. With Action Surge the Samurai can do 9 attacks (using Rapid Strike and Fighting Spirit) a turn so over 2 turns thats 18 attacks which comes in at 810 damage.
Since OP still hasn't defined "most powerful class" it is definitely not "going of on a tangent, don't be silly. Especially since OP has focused most of their arguments on maximum damage which, as has been pointed out, is irrelevant in certain situations. The Monk is also one of teh best classes in the game, that is correct but again, it all comes down to how you define "most powerful". Since OP still hasn't done that, this discussion will just go round and round since everyone will have their own idea of what "most powerful" means.
Speak for yourself, I play AL!
Look, this is a discussion. Even if OP gave his definition of most powerful class, that's not for him to decide entirely and we can argue on different aspects and facets of power and make our case and potentially gain insight in doing so. I've given my own two cents on the matter, stating that as far as martials go, they have copious amounts of safety and utility with serviceable damage. Sure, a paladin might not ever out damage a fighter, but that's not why people cherish paladins.
And again, it's a pointless discussion if we aren't discussing the same topic. You do realize this don't you? It's like saying "which is the best car" and I say "it's the land rover defender, since it is rugged and can drive in all sorts of terrain" and you say "no, it's a tesla roadster because it is fast and electrical". Neither of us are wrong but the discussion is pointless since we use different definitions. To actually have a meaningful conversation you have to define what the discussion is about. For example "which is the best car to drive across the US form coast to coast using only non-paved road" might be a better topic, if that is what you want to discuss. But without a proper definition you will never get a proper discussion. Case in point, this sidetrack that you started.
And of course it is up to OP to decide what their thread is about. Are you seriously suggesting that it is totally fine to just hijack someone's thread and start changing the topic willy-nilly?
Yeah dude, It's fine. I do it all the time. Also, the Miata is the best car.
Paladins are the most OP class in Van Richten's campaign, and any campaign involving darkers/evilish/feys and any chaotil evil mob. Also if the party lacks in self-esteem, you can blame the bard for not doing fine his/her job, huh ??? xD
ahemmmm............
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Mazda Miata you mean ???? I see you didn't get a tiny watch at Lotus Elise or Opel Speedster.
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
First hammer of thurnderbolts is 2d6 not 4d6
Actually no its not misleading. I said single turn damage dealt. The damage is all dealt in a single turn and is not dealt over two turns like your example. But let me defeat my own argument for you. There is one thing that actually defeats my argument on single turn damage, there is only one subclass that can deal more damage than any other class in the game as the amount of attacks it has is literally limited to the amount of enemies that move with in its reach and that only belongs to the Cavalier. Mind you that if you filled up a 30ft radius with the exception of one free space to allow movement, a Cavalier could make 167 attacks on top of its normal attack action and action surge. Only factoring the other 167 attacks and assuming each enemy had 20 hp well a Cavalier could deal 3,324 damage in a single turn with creature in a 30ft radius. Mind you I'm not doing max damage on this as even if the enemy's had 6hp the Cavalier still deals more damage than any one class in a turn. Further a Paladin over those same two turns would out damage your fighter because of smites if the Paladin was attacking those two turns. If you don't understand what preparatory actions are that are done before going into an encounter I can not help you.
Over two turns of attacking with out activating the Scourge Aasimar ability this is what a Paladin would deal assuming max damage rolls and crits with out even using Banishing Smite.
24d6+82d8+126=926
So ummm yeah nice making 18 attacks but a Paladin took 6 attacks to do more damage sooooooo........ my point still stands.
On to another point Lostwhilefishing this is what a discussion is it is comparing the Paladin to all the other classes. As you seem to not grasp that or the context on what I provided in term that is not solely related to damage I can not help you and will not waist my time trying to explain it to you. Further your blatant misrepresentation of Spell or abilities has not gone unnoticed.
The Wish spell can not auto kill some one period. It is up to a DM what you wish and if a DM allows you to get these types of wishes that is a shitty DM as there are major consequences for using the Wish spell and the more you deviate from the parameters of the spell the greater they are.
Additionally the Open Hand Monk can not auto kill someone either. Its ability is entirely dependent on a Constitution Save to do as such and does not negate spells like Death Ward or abilities that has a character return to a single hit point. A Constitution saving throw of 18 or 19 and is entirely with in the realms of a Paladin succeeding on even rolling a 1 because 1's as critical fails per the standard rules only apply to weapon attacks.
You are entirely wrong on a Circle of Spores druid having more HP. It uses Temp HP points which do not stack. And the most it can have is 80. Compared to a Circle of Moon which can indefinitely shift into an elemental, with at most 126 hp, at lvl 20 the Spores druid does not compare. Further it is so far behind what a Barbarians HP can be especially when factoring Bear Totems, which because of resistance to almost everything can be as much as 650 Hp with resistance factored in.
Further the most damaging Spell Meteor Swarm maxes out at 240 damage. So no a Bard can not deal more damage than a Paladin.
At this point pretty much everything you said is either flat out wrong or a mischaracterization of what is being said.
As much as myself and Cgarciao butted heads in our opinions on multiclassing, I find us agreeing on alot more than we disagree. This is a discussion as I literally asked what peoples opinions were on this and to put them forward. You seem convinced that I, the OP, am the one that has to put exact parameters on a discussion. I do not as what my opinion is is not the defacto decision in the discussion but the one possing the question to be discussed.
Also for whoever said that a Paladins Nova damage is almost comparable to a rogues. The most a rogue can deal is using sneak attack as an assassin using Death Strike. Assuming max damage and crits the most damage sneak attack brings to the table is:
20d6 doubled
Which amounts to 240 damage.
When Compared to a Paladin making 2 attacks, that has not prepared by casting banishing smite before the encounter, assuming max damage roles and crits
28d8+10d10
Which comes out to 324
If they prepared thats an extra 10d10 added to the damage for 424.
Paladins deal a far higher nova damage than a Rogue does. Rogues deal more consistent nova damage.
Firstly I was never arguing about the rest of the Paladins abilities. I was merely taken aback by your claim of over 600 damage a turn which turns out to be only semi true as you needed an additional turn to setup.
Secondly please actually read my post, I said per hit assuming crit so a crit from a Hammer of Thunderbolts does 4d6 which I see you used for your math but conveniently call my math wrong.
Again I have no interest in arguing about whether the Paladin is the best class, just wanted to understand the claim of 600+damage a turn.
Yes, but you still haven't told us what it is that you actually want to compare and why and how you measure the value of the things you comapre, making the entire thing a pointless task. Your fixation with damage is meaningless in a game of courtly intrigue with no combat and you haven't even touched upon the paladin's lacking ability to stealth or that it's one of the most MAD classes in 5E. Instead, you seemmore interested in cherry picking the aspects that you think is "best" (again, without telling us why those things are "best") and ognoring everything else.
Well, that is rather rude and childish of you. If you had botehred to read the thread you would have noticed that there are numerous things that the Paldin is in fact not the best of. Are you just going to ignore that?
Bless you heart, you think accurate describing something is misrepresenting it? That's nice.
Of course it can. Please quote the rule (book, page and paragraph) that says that the wish spell can't kill anyone.
Oh, so the Wish spell can kill someone? Excellent!
The quality of the DM is irrelevant to the fact that the Wish spell ca kill someone. I never mentioned any potential consequences so you can drop that strawman right away. Not that that has anything to do with the fact that Wish can kill someone, but anyways.
Who said that it is the Paladin who has to take the saving throw? Is this all of teh sudden a PvP discussion? Yes, the OHM is relying on a failed save but you paladin's nova damage (which, again, isn't really a paladin thing since you took much of the damage from other sources than paladin abilities) is worthless if you can't hit the target due to high AC or it simply being too far away for the paladin to hit. Which again brings us back to your complete lack of parameters for this discussion.
Good thing I never claimed that they have more HP then, did you even read what I wrote?
Yeah? Did anyone claim they did? If not, why are you bringing this up?
Well, 80 temp HP per turn. You did read the rules for Spore Druids, didn't you?
Well, you are factually wrong. A Spore Druid with Con 16 (not unlikely for a 20th level Druid) will have 160 HP (assuming tehy take the avergae 5HP per level + con bonus) plus 80 temp HP each turn so even the base spore druid is better than the elemental. That's at least 240 HP for as long as your opponent doesn't do more than 80 points of damage in one turn.
Oh look, another case of which the Paladin isn't best! :)
Bards have Wish, so yes. And a meteor swarm hitting multiple opponents will be cause more damage than even your made up nova paladin. Again you are factually incorrect.
Not really, no. Your faulty assumptions and strawmen are wrong but that's not my fault, that's on you. Maybe you should read up on the PHB and other sourcebooks a bit? Or at least tell us how you define "most powerful class"? That would probably help.
Again, to have a meaningful discussion and to at least know what it is you are asking us our opinions on you have to tell us what that the parametrs of the question you're "possing" is. As it stands now you haven't asked us for opinions, you asked a factual question that can't be answered without a proper definition and as has also been showed, you are objectively wrong in most of the claims you have made.
Artificers and Monks disagree, unless you're making assumptions you haven't stated.
Immunity to disease doesn't generally matter in most campaigns. The Paladin +CHA to Saves aura is the best class ability in the game, in my opinion.
Bards are broadly speaking the best at this, although this gets watered down as other classes continue to get access to spells outside of their own spell lists.
The highest average DPR during a nova belongs to Fighters. If you're using a different definition of most single round damage, I would need to know it to respond to this.
Incorrect for both single and multi-target healing, unless you're using a very different definition of "heal the most". This throne is contested, to be sure, but at high levels, the answer to "who can heal the most?" is "anyone with Wish", meaning the ultimate throne holder is Genielocks, as they have infinite wishes via simulacrum.
Depends on definition, but Druids are at the top of this contest (infinite hp at level 20). Artificers are otherwise at the top of this throne.
Swarmkeepers have this, for example, but unlike with Paladins, odds seem good it's due to poor rules writing.
The most powerful subclasses are Peace and Twilight (from Cleric) and Genie (from Warlock), and the most powerful classes are Warlock (due to Genielock and Cocainelock), Bard, and Wizard.
My apologies I thought you were listing damage and doubling it later. I also didn't say your math was wrong, in fact I didn't state anything about it being wrong just pointed out the Hammer of Thunderbolts damage. So please do not accuse me of something I did not do.
First I'm going to address you stating "Good thing I never claimed that they have more HP then, did you even read what I wrote?"
You absolutely did bring it up. How about you stop lying now. Your very first post on the thread you quote me directly referring to Barbarians and the Circle of the Moon Druid stating the following:
"Well, you are wrong about the druids. Circle of the Spore can easily out-HP pretty much anyone."
Additionally do not accuse me of not understanding how a character works when you clearly have just shown that you have zero understanding of what was just mentioned. A Circle of the Moon Druid at lvl 20 can Wild Shape in to a different Elemental every single turn if it wishes. All of the Elementals have between 90-126 HP. Last I checked 90 HP is higher than 80. Either that or you really do not understand how wild shape works. So let me explain it. If a Circle of the Moon Druid wild shapes into a Earth Elemental and that Elemental is reduced to exactly 0 hp from damage taken the druid still has full HP. So no matter what constitution modifier you want to use a Circle of the Moon Druid has more HP. So again as I stated you are misrepresenting abilities and it has not gone unnoticed.
You have repeatedly accused me of not reading what you wrote when you still have no understood my very first post. I did not ever say Paladin have the Highest HP. I said they have the Highest HP and AC combined. If you want to accuse someone of not reading what was written look in the mirror as it is clearly stated in my very first post.
Ok so I put together a build where a Paladin can deal over 900 damage and you say its coming from other sources, I use only the Paladin's abilities and you ignore it. A Paladin can still deal over 600 damage a turn using only Smite and Banishing Smite with out adding modifiers. Which is far more than what the next Nova damaging dealing class, Rogue, can deal in single round damage. Further these other sources you claim are the same sources that the Samurai is using as well. However they are making 3 times as many attacks and sill dealing less damage. You remove the weapon and the feat and it changes nothing.
Strawman argument? Its not a strawman or faulty assumptions when you have been routinely trying to make an argument that other classes have higher HP even though it is not what I said. It is not strawmanning or faulty assumptions when you make a statement directly connected to a quote about a Circle of a Moon and Barbarian and then say a Circle of Spores has more Hp and then lie about ever saying it. It is not Strawmanning or faulty assumption when you dont even understand how Wild Shape works, let alone how a Circle of Moon Druid can use it and accuse someone else of not understanding an ability.
Finally at this point I'm going to say you're not welcome in this discussion any more for flat out lying about abilities, not reading what was stated, and continuing to derail an open discussion thread on the topic by constantly demanding something that not a single person has stated is a requirement.
To keep this simple we are only going to use official rulings. As such no you can not infinitely cast Wish via Simulacrum. Per Adventure League FAQ:
You Are You; and So Is He. If a simulacrum you have created casts wish, both you and your simulacrum suffer the stress associated with casting the spell—including the risk of being forever unable to cast wish again. The inability to cast wish extends to any simulacrum you create in the future.
I stated top HP and AC combined. Not one or the other but combined.
The only Fighter that can deal more damage in a single turn is a Cavalier and only because it has as many attacks as there are enemies that move in its reach. Other than that a fighter deals higher damage over time but that was not my statement.
A Paladin does not extend Divine health (immunity to disease) to other. It can extend Immunity to fear and depending on subclass charm or what ever 7th lvl Aura that subclass has and unless a Bard can extend Immunities to two things simultaneously to upwards of 168 others (the amount of 5ft squares in a 30ft aura) than no they are not.
Show examples of Artificers and Monks, further does this extend to others all the time or as a reaction.
As far as max healing I will give you that Wish heals up to Max Hp. That being said a Paladin can heal an individual up to 100 Hp or 100 people 1 Hp. No other class is capable of doing this.
Finally nothing attached to the Swarmkeeper remotely states that they loose their abilities for going against anything. All it does is state where they get their powers from. Conversely it directly states that Paladins can directly loose their powers for violating their Oath.
Again, please read what I actually wrote. If you can't understand, please just ask instead of making pointless strawman arguments. I said that "Circle of the Spore can easily out-HP pretty much anyone" which most people who have a basic grasp of the rules and how Spore Druids can give themselves 80 THP each turn understands is something completely different from your false claim that I said that "Circle of Spores druid having more HP". Being able to replenish their THP is a way to out-HP other classes.
Well, I haven't lied so no. Just because you don't understand people does not mean that they are lying, it means that you need to learn.
Which, as I have already pointed out, is not the same as saying that they have more normal HP than other classes, which you falsely and erroneously claimed I said in one of your many strawmen.
Kettle, pot, black and all that. :)
Yes, but gaining Temporary hitpoints doesn't mean that you lose your ordinary hitpoints, you do know that, right? But yes, not only Spore druids but also Moon druis are more powerful than Paladins on that front, that is correct.
How nice that you notice things. Maybe you should also try to understand them? Or at least ask when you clearly don't? I'd be happy to answer any questions you have as soon as you answer the one I asked you. :)
I never said that you said that Paladins have the "Highest HP" (not sure why you felt the need to capitalize that, but you do you), I asked for a definition on "the most powerful class" since without it any discussion is meaningless.
Again, you really need to read what people has written. I have never once mentioned the Samurai. But that discussion that you had with a comepletely different person than me shows exactly why you should define what you mean by "the most powerful class" since different people have different measures. Your nova damage won't help you if you are up against one hundred kobolds, a meteor swarm will, or at least might.
Well, actually all of those things you claim that I did despite it not being so is a perfect example of strawmanning.
Bless you heart, that's not very polite of you. I haven't demanded anything, I have asked a simple question that is vital for the discussion. If that question was too difficult for you to answer you could have just said so. But sure, if you want an answer to the stated question "Paladin's[sic!] Are they the most powerful class?" then the objective answer is no. Have a good one!
For goodness sake, we need to stop bragging about the statistics of 20th level characters + Legendary Items + Crits + Spells that other casters are using to buff the PC. What if scenarios don't apply if we want an actual playing field. Ranking things by "power" leads to messy discussions. A wizard who can warp reality possesses more "power" than a fighter with a normal sword. But, the fighter is "powerful" enough to kill the wizard by themself.
I think that the Paladin is good at a great number of things, but is easily outclassed by other classes if we simply look beyond one turn effects. A one in 20 chance for a crit you don't know is coming can be outdone by two turns of action surge. One healing of 100 (at 20th level) can be outdone by two healings totaling 150 (at 13th level). No one can out buff a bard. There is no doubt that paladins are among the best of the D&D classes. This is not because Paladins can deal the most damage overall, deliver the most buffs, or heal the most people, but because the paladin is pretty decent at everything. However, I severely disagree with the claim that Paladins are the best at everything. They have a huge weakness in their lack range. This is my humble opinion.
Also, let's keep this friendly. There is too much aggression happening in this thread for a roleplaying game!
My only good homebrews: Races, Subclasses.
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Until you die, the swarm remains in your space, crawling on you or flying and skittering around you within your space.
And they have no mechanic for getting the swarm back on res.