Who here thinks Paladin's are the most powerful class in D&D?
Paladins have the Highest Saves and can extend those saves to others, have immunities to diseases, can extend other immunities to others, have options from almost every other class, can deal the most single round damage, can heal the most and the least at will with a touch, and can have the highest HP and AC combined of any other class.
Finally an additional point towards this. Paladins are the only class in all of D&D that can loose their powers because they dont follow their ideals. No other class has it stated that they can permanently loose their powers.
What is everyone's opinion on this? What would you say is the most powerful subclass?
Artificers can get better saves, full spell casters get better spells, Bards have access to the Paladin's best spells long before Paladin does and Druids can be more tanky.
Artificers can get better saves, full spell casters get better spells, Bards have access to the Paladin's best spells long before Paladin does and Druids can be more tanky.
So your using multiple classes to equal or do one thing better than a Paladin?
An Artificer can add its int as a reaction to itself or others it is not something that is always there to everyone.
Full spell caster do have better spells but nothing else and can only use a single spell slot a turn. Paladins can burn up to as man attacks and bonus actions they have. Dealing far more damage a turn than any one spell.
Paladins have more health, deal more damage, have higher AC, better Saves, and can heal better than Bards.
In regards to the druid, only the circle of the Moon is more tanky in an HP sense, the Barbarian is more tanky than both in that regards. That being said HP is not the only thing that determines tankyness. An Oath of Devotion Paladin permanently puts half the creature types at disadvantage on attacks against it, has AC higher than a druid can dream of, better saves, can heal 100 hp at once, and is the only thing that can take out a Circle of the Moon druid at lvl 20 in elemental form on a single turn.
Unless you know of any other thing in 5e that has the potential to deal over 600 damage a turn. Yes that's right a single Paladin at lvl 20 with two attacks has the potential to deal up to a maximum of 624 damage before modifiers a turn.
Artificers can get better saves, full spell casters get better spells, Bards have access to the Paladin's best spells long before Paladin does and Druids can be more tanky.
So your using multiple classes to equal or do one thing better than a Paladin?
No, I did exactly what I wrote and showed examples (a few of many) of where other classes are better than Paladins to illustrate why you need to define "most powerful class" in order to have a meaningful conversation.
An Artificer can add its int as a reaction to itself or others it is not something that is always there to everyone.
So? A potential +22 to a (which could easily go up to a +24 with infusions) to a saving throw is still better than the Paladin's maximum of +21 on Charisma saves. Again, you need to define what you mean by "most powerful".
Full spell caster do have better spells but nothing else and can only use a single spell slot a turn. Paladins can burn up to as man attacks and bonus actions they have. Dealing far more damage a turn than any one spell.
Not sure all of those sentences are English, but you are quite wrong in that spell casters have "nothing else" than "better spells". There are a bunch of subclasses with all sorts of cool features. Again, you need to define what you mean by "most powerful".
Paladins have more health, deal more damage, have higher AC, better Saves, and can heal better than Bards.
Better saves? Probably. More health? Very likely. Higher AC? Not necessarily. More damage? Depends on what level and spells available. As pointed out, Bards have access to the best Paladin spells way before the Paladins do. Better heal? No, not really. Again, you need to define what you mean by "most powerful".
In regards to the druid, only the circle of the Moon is more tanky in an HP sense, the Barbarian is more tanky than both in that regards. That being said HP is not the only thing that determines tankyness. An Oath of Devotion Paladin permanently puts half the creature types at disadvantage on attacks against it, has AC higher than a druid can dream of, better saves, can heal 100 hp at once, and is the only thing that can take out a Circle of the Moon druid at lvl 20 in elemental form on a single turn.
Unless you know of any other thing in 5e that has the potential to deal over 600 damage a turn. Yes that's right a single Paladin at lvl 20 with two attacks has the potential to deal up to a maximum of 624 damage before modifiers a turn.
Well, you are wrong about the druids. Circle of the Spore can easily out-HP pretty much anyone, for example. Ac is pretty irrelevant after a certain point and the wish spell can be used to both instantly heal or instantly kill someone. And being able to make a bunch of circumstantial damage is irrelevant if your enemy is to far away from you to hit it with the melee weapon you need to use to smite.
That said, you still need to define what you mean by "most powerful". You seem to be focused purely pn certain aspects of the combat par tof the game. Is that all you are interested in?
Who here thinks Paladin's are the most powerful class in D&D?
Paladins have the Highest Saves and can extend those saves to others, have immunities to diseases, can extend other immunities to others, have options from almost every other class, can deal the most single round damage, can heal the most and the least at will with a touch, and can have the highest HP and AC combined of any other class.
Finally an additional point towards this. Paladins are the only class in all of D&D that can loose their powers because they dont follow their ideals. No other class has it stated that they can permanently loose their powers.
What is everyone's opinion on this? What would you say is the most powerful subclass?
In my opinion it is Oath of Devotion.
I want to address the bolded first-- This is wrong, as GWM fighters are the strongest martial in terms of raw damage, undisputed.
At their peak, a samurai will generate advantage on their turn for a bonus action and do up to 9 attacks with action surge and swift strikes on the same turn. Each swing will do about 10 GWM+5 STR+7.5 great sword average for 22.5 damage on average, or 202.5 DPR. This damage can be repeated again since they'll have two action surges per short rest.
At their peak, a paladin going nova, if we assume the same set up as above, will do 22.5+27 (6d8s from 5th lvl slot and improved divine smite), or 49.5 per swing, or 99 DPR. Even if we toss in a free 3rd attack from either an assumed GWM kill or something, 144 damage DPR (assuming a 4th lvl slot smite). This damage cannot be repeated until a long rest. Where you get 600 is puzzling. I notice you have this habit of listing numbers without explaining how you get them. You should work on that.
Second, highest combined HP and AC? I don't think so. Paladins only have a d10 hit die, just like fighters, and have access to the same armors as fighters. However, an Eldritch Knight has access to the shield spell. That's already more than a paladin using shield of faith. Heck, a bladesinger wizard can achieve 30 AC without any investment in magical equipment so imagine one that does invest!
Now, what paladins do have is safety and some utility. They've got spell casting that can ease an adventuring day in a number of ways, like purify food and drink, detect poison and disease, zone of truth, etc. Their nova isn't the best, but that's okay, cause their damage can still be pretty decent. If you include a steed (and why shouldn't you, you get them so easily!), paladins have the most mobility of any martial. You get some immunities, which is nice. I felt great in white plume mountain with my paladin, things could not charm and drown me, and I was completely immune to super tetanus. Aura of protection is real nice, it makes proficient saves feel like they cannot fail.
But paladins suffer from a number of issues. For one, they're MAD. Paladins act as martials, but want to increase their CHA. Some may ignore this and choose to play their paladins by using their slots exclusively for smites and increase STR instead, but do so at the cost of a stronger aura. Adding to this, they're incredibly feat-starved. They want RES: con, warcaster, PAM, mounted combatant, GWM, sentinel, and so forth. Yet, we only have so few opportunities to even choose in a real campaign setting!
In short, paladins are very strong, but definitely not the strongest.
doubled for a crit and you now have 2d12 + 2d8 + 12d8
Assuming you rolled max damage this equals 24 + 16 + 96 = 136 per attack.
Now you can throw in another 10d10 for a crit Banishing Smite thats another 100 damage.
136 + 136 + 100 is still well short of 600. Even adding in STR modifier (assuming a STR of 20), GWM and a +3 weapon that only adds another 18 per hit so another 36 for both hits and we have a grand total of 408 which is still well short of 600.
If you didn't use Banishing Smite and instead got a 3rd attack from GWM (which shouldn't be the case since Khaldodraigo said 2 attacks) or something that is still only another 54 more damage bringing it up to a grand total of 462.
I suppose you could be a Oathbreaker and add another 5 aura damage (assuming 20 CHA) per swing upping the total to 477.
To address yall asking when I say maximum damage it is not avg roles. It is max. Yes this is not likely but it is the potential. The maximum damage a Paladin can deal is one two crits.
Further I made a mistake in my previous statement as I factored in if a Paladin had 4 attacks which is possible. The correct number on rolls and only using a longsword is 456
Banishing smite can be cast on the previous turn as a prepatory action. On the turn of the attack after your first attack you use your bonus action to cast Banishing smite again. This will give you 16d8+10d10. On a dual crit you get 32d8+20d10 which equals 456. Mind you again this is a longswords not GWM.
If you had 3 attacks from Haste this becomes 584 before modifiers (Vengence Paladin)
If you add +15 from just a +5 str and no weapon modifiers this becomes 481 and 609. The numbers only go up from there.
To address yall asking when I say maximum damage it is not avg roles. It is max. Yes this is not likely but it is the potential. The maximum damage a Paladin can deal is one two crits.
Further I made a mistake in my previous statement as I factored in if a Paladin had 4 attacks which is possible. The correct number on rolls and only using a longsword is 456
Banishing smite can be cast on the previous turn as a prepatory action. On the turn of the attack after your first attack you use your bonus action to cast Banishing smite again. This will give you 16d8+10d10. On a dual crit you get 32d8+20d10 which equals 456. Mind you again this is a longswords not GWM.
Doesn't the Banishing Smite get expended on the first weapon attack? So it won't be there for the second attack. I think you are factoring in a spell that won't be there after the hit.
"Source: Player's Handbook
5th-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action Range: Self Components: V Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, your weapon crackles with force, and the attack deals an extra 5d10 force damage to the target. Additionally, if this attack reduces the target to 50 hit points of fewer, you banish it. If the target is native to a different plane of existence than the on you’re on, the target disappears, returning to its home plane. If the target is native to the plane you’re on, the creature vanishes into a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated. It remains there until the spell ends, at which point the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied."
Yes key words are next time you hit a creature. If I cast banishing smite the turn prior it stands until my next attack.
Next turn make an attack banishing smite goes off. Use smite as well.
Use bonus action from new turn to cast banishing smite again. Second attack it goes off.
And no there is no rule that says you can not interrupt your attack to cast a bonus action spell.
To address yall asking when I say maximum damage it is not avg roles. It is max. Yes this is not likely but it is the potential. The maximum damage a Paladin can deal is one two crits.
Further I made a mistake in my previous statement as I factored in if a Paladin had 4 attacks which is possible. The correct number on rolls and only using a longsword is 456
Banishing smite can be cast on the previous turn as a prepatory action. On the turn of the attack after your first attack you use your bonus action to cast Banishing smite again. This will give you 16d8+10d10. On a dual crit you get 32d8+20d10 which equals 456. Mind you again this is a longswords not GWM.
Doesn't the Banishing Smite get expended on the first weapon attack? So it won't be there for the second attack. I think you are factoring in a spell that won't be there after the hit.
"Source: Player's Handbook
5th-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 bonus action Range: Self Components: V Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
The next time you hit a creature with a weapon attack before this spell ends, your weapon crackles with force, and the attack deals an extra 5d10 force damage to the target. Additionally, if this attack reduces the target to 50 hit points of fewer, you banish it. If the target is native to a different plane of existence than the on you’re on, the target disappears, returning to its home plane. If the target is native to the plane you’re on, the creature vanishes into a harmless demiplane. While there, the target is incapacitated. It remains there until the spell ends, at which point the target reappears in the space it left or in the nearest unoccupied space if that space is occupied."
Yes key words are next time you hit a creature. If I cast banishing smite the turn prior it stands until my next attack.
Next turn make an attack banishing smite goes off. Use smite as well.
Use bonus action from new turn to cast banishing smite again. Second attack it goes off.
And no there is no rule that says you can not interrupt your attack to cast a bonus action spell.
Yeah, I had already deleted my post minutes before you posted this. I realized you were using both of your level 5 spells in that one turn. So it would work, but at level 19 and 20.
Are paladins the most powerful class? I would say no, but then it really depends on the type of fight and a number of other factors.
My paladin has been kicking butt in my recent game, but we have been fighting a LOT of undead recently. Battling undead and fiends is perfect for a paladin. But before this recent dungeon, we were in a number of wilderness encounters, where I felt totally useless. They were ranged fights against aerial opponents. Definitely NOT a paladin's strong suit! lol
Paladins have really good saves, any CHA based class can feel useful with all the social skill checks in the game and can do really good single target DPR, but not really over the long haul. If there are a number of encounters in the same day, my limited number of spell slots will come into play. So like all classes, there are strong points and weak points. Which is the way we would want it. If one class had everything, everybody would play it and it would be a boring game. We would all end up as "cookie cutters" of each other.
To address yall asking when I say maximum damage it is not avg roles. It is max. Yes this is not likely but it is the potential. The maximum damage a Paladin can deal is one two crits.
Further I made a mistake in my previous statement as I factored in if a Paladin had 4 attacks which is possible. The correct number on rolls and only using a longsword is 456
Banishing smite can be cast on the previous turn as a prepatory action. On the turn of the attack after your first attack you use your bonus action to cast Banishing smite again. This will give you 16d8+10d10. On a dual crit you get 32d8+20d10 which equals 456. Mind you again this is a longswords not GWM.
If you had 3 attacks from Haste this becomes 584 before modifiers (Vengence Paladin)
If you add +15 from just a +5 str and no weapon modifiers this becomes 481 and 609. The numbers only go up from there.
Not arguing your numbers, but isn't average DPR more useful than a potential max damage, that will never happen? The chances of rolling a double crit, then rolling all max die rolls is probably equal to your chances of winning the lottery. :)
edit - I just started doing the numbers...you have a far better chance of winning the Powerball!
Second, highest combined HP and AC? I don't think so. Paladins only have a d10 hit die, just like fighters, and have access to the same armors as fighters. However, an Eldritch Knight has access to the shield spell. That's already more than a paladin using shield of faith. Heck, a bladesinger wizard can achieve 30 AC without any investment in magical equipment so imagine one that does invest!
Wierd stuff on my phone but I wanted to address this specifically. First lers do this and through in magic items for shits and giggles also all modifiers for this will be +5.
The bladesinger has the following items and feats to boost AC.
+3 studded leather
Defender longsword
Feat to grab shield of Faith as a spell.
Ring of protection
Cloak of protection.
Using the above items in conjunction with the shield spell and blade song the bladesinger has an AC of 38
A Paladin equipped with the following items
+3 Plate armor
+3 shield
Defender longsword
Ring of protection
Cloak of Protection
Feat to grab shield spell
The Paladin in conjunction with defensive fighting style and shield of Faith has an AC of 39
But Khaldo why didnt you give the bladesinger the fighter initiate feat. They'd both have an AC of 39 then. Well that's because I said the highest HP and AC COMBINED.
For the max damage that any class can do in a turn, I have no idea, but think fighter has to be up there. Action Surge and four weapon attacks at level 20 being the prime drivers.
I have a level 6 half orc fighter, who also has PAM and GWM. He did 105 damage in one round...at level 6 without using an Action Surge. So I think fighter has to be up there for max single turn damage potential. Again, this is assuming things that are nearly impossible to happen with crits and rolling max damage dice. So close to zero chance of it happening, but not zero chance.
Second, highest combined HP and AC? I don't think so. Paladins only have a d10 hit die, just like fighters, and have access to the same armors as fighters. However, an Eldritch Knight has access to the shield spell. That's already more than a paladin using shield of faith. Heck, a bladesinger wizard can achieve 30 AC without any investment in magical equipment so imagine one that does invest!
Wierd stuff on my phone but I wanted to address this specifically. First lers do this and through in magic items for shits and giggles also all modifiers for this will be +5.
The bladesinger has the following items and feats to boost AC.
+3 studded leather
Defender longsword
Feat to grab shield of Faith as a spell.
Ring of protection
Cloak of protection.
Using the above items in conjunction with the shield spell and blade song the bladesinger has an AC of 38
A Paladin equipped with the following items
+3 Plate armor
+3 shield
Defender longsword
Ring of protection
Cloak of Protection
Feat to grab shield spell
The Paladin in conjunction with defensive fighting style and shield of Faith has an AC of 39
But Khaldo why didnt you give the bladesinger the fighter initiate feat. They'd both have an AC of 39 then. Well that's because I said the highest HP and AC COMBINED.
Also for those wonder absolute max damage a Paladin can deal in a single turn here is your build.
Scourge Aasimar
Vengeance Paladin
Hammer of Thunderbolts
Belt of Cloud Giant Strength
Great Weapon Master.
Scourge Aasimar deals 30 extra damage a turn. Vengeance Paladin allows for 3 attacks. Belt of Cloud Giant Strength boost you to 27 STR. Hammer of Thunderbolts boosts you to 30 STR Great Weapon Master adds +10 damage a hit, and a third attack on a bonus action.
To address yall asking when I say maximum damage it is not avg roles. It is max. Yes this is not likely but it is the potential. The maximum damage a Paladin can deal is one two crits.
Further I made a mistake in my previous statement as I factored in if a Paladin had 4 attacks which is possible. The correct number on rolls and only using a longsword is 456
Banishing smite can be cast on the previous turn as a prepatory action. On the turn of the attack after your first attack you use your bonus action to cast Banishing smite again. This will give you 16d8+10d10. On a dual crit you get 32d8+20d10 which equals 456. Mind you again this is a longswords not GWM.
If you had 3 attacks from Haste this becomes 584 before modifiers (Vengence Paladin)
If you add +15 from just a +5 str and no weapon modifiers this becomes 481 and 609. The numbers only go up from there.
Not arguing your numbers, but isn't average DPR more useful than a potential max damage, that will never happen? The chances of rolling a double crit, then rolling all max die rolls is probably equal to your chances of winning the lottery. :)
edit - I just started doing the numbers...you have a far better chance of winning the Powerball!
Oh i know its an absolute long shot im not saying it isnt but it is entirely possible and when talking single most damage a turn it is worth of showing.
Certainly shows the average damage can be comparatively high also. I have always heard it said that paladins can have really good "nova" potential i.e. a really, really big damage burst in a turn or two. It's not sustainable, but can really pack a punch when needed. They are lacking in the AOE dept that some classes like wizards and sorcerers excel at. Ranged damage can be an issue too. But if the DM is giving them a steady diet of only one encounter a day and the paladin has realized this, then he/she can really light up the damage numbers!
As a DM, the way to counter this is just simply give them several combat encounters a day. So if they blow all their resources and spell slots, they can't just smite everything into the ground. This may teach them to choose carefully whether they want to keep a spell slot or two in reserve.
Certainly shows the average damage can be comparatively high also. I have always heard it said that paladins can have really good "nova" potential i.e. a really, really big damage burst in a turn or two. It's not sustainable, but can really pack a punch when needed. They are lacking in the AOE dept that some classes like wizards and sorcerers excel at. Ranged damage can be an issue too. But if the DM is giving them a steady diet of only one encounter a day and the paladin has realized this, then he/she can really light up the damage numbers!
As a DM, the way to counter this is just simply give them several combat encounters a day. So if they blow all their resources and spell slots, they can't just smite everything into the ground. This may teach them to choose carefully whether they want to keep a spell slot or two in reserve.
This is why I subscribe to the mentality of using spell slots for a buff rather than smiting, especially early on. One slot per encounter practically lol. I tend to rely far more on short rest resources like channel divinity. This is also why I'm a fan of multi classing for more short rest resources i.e. fighter and warlock.
Also for those wonder absolute max damage a Paladin can deal in a single turn here is your build.
Scourge Aasimar
Vengeance Paladin
Hammer of Thunderbolts
Belt of Cloud Giant Strength
Great Weapon Master.
Scourge Aasimar deals 30 extra damage a turn. Vengeance Paladin allows for 3 attacks. Belt of Cloud Giant Strength boost you to 27 STR. Hammer of Thunderbolts boosts you to 30 STR Great Weapon Master adds +10 damage a hit, and a third attack on a bonus action.
To address yall asking when I say maximum damage it is not avg roles. It is max. Yes this is not likely but it is the potential. The maximum damage a Paladin can deal is one two crits.
Further I made a mistake in my previous statement as I factored in if a Paladin had 4 attacks which is possible. The correct number on rolls and only using a longsword is 456
Banishing smite can be cast on the previous turn as a prepatory action. On the turn of the attack after your first attack you use your bonus action to cast Banishing smite again. This will give you 16d8+10d10. On a dual crit you get 32d8+20d10 which equals 456. Mind you again this is a longswords not GWM.
If you had 3 attacks from Haste this becomes 584 before modifiers (Vengence Paladin)
If you add +15 from just a +5 str and no weapon modifiers this becomes 481 and 609. The numbers only go up from there.
Not arguing your numbers, but isn't average DPR more useful than a potential max damage, that will never happen? The chances of rolling a double crit, then rolling all max die rolls is probably equal to your chances of winning the lottery. :)
edit - I just started doing the numbers...you have a far better chance of winning the Powerball!
Oh i know its an absolute long shot im not saying it isnt but it is entirely possible and when talking single most damage a turn it is worth of showing.
Again, a wish spell can just autokill people. So can an Open Hand Monk. And takinga feat to get the shield spell is something anyone can do, it's not a strength of the Paladin class. As has been pointed out, without magic items (which are never a given unless you play an artificer) the Bladesinger can get a higher. Being an Aasimar also isn't a strength of the Paladin class. The same goes for the magic items you mentioned (also not sure how "the numbers can only go up" if you just described a potential maximum.
And you still haven't defined what you mean by "most poweful class". It seems that the criteria you go by are the ones that particularly favour the Paladin, which isn't really a good measurement.
Wish? Monk? That's kinda going off on a tangent. Power isn't measured in how you "autokill." Otherwise we'd be singing praise of the aforementioned monk, and we all sure as hell don't. Even using wish to kill some one is subject to DM fiat and may end up back firing.
Paladins are good at doing large single target damage. But something like AOE can easily outclass the overall damage a paladin can do. Spellcasters and archers can do serious damage from range also. Range that paladins lack. Khal's example is of the damage a level 20 character can do. But lots of classes can do obscene damage at high levels. Have a Meteor Swarm hit a dozen enemies and see what that damage is? At level 20, everybody is super powerful imo.
Who here thinks Paladin's are the most powerful class in D&D?
Paladins have the Highest Saves and can extend those saves to others, have immunities to diseases, can extend other immunities to others, have options from almost every other class, can deal the most single round damage, can heal the most and the least at will with a touch, and can have the highest HP and AC combined of any other class.
Finally an additional point towards this. Paladins are the only class in all of D&D that can loose their powers because they dont follow their ideals. No other class has it stated that they can permanently loose their powers.
What is everyone's opinion on this? What would you say is the most powerful subclass?
In my opinion it is Oath of Devotion.
Define "most powerful class".
Artificers can get better saves, full spell casters get better spells, Bards have access to the Paladin's best spells long before Paladin does and Druids can be more tanky.
So your using multiple classes to equal or do one thing better than a Paladin?
An Artificer can add its int as a reaction to itself or others it is not something that is always there to everyone.
Full spell caster do have better spells but nothing else and can only use a single spell slot a turn. Paladins can burn up to as man attacks and bonus actions they have. Dealing far more damage a turn than any one spell.
Paladins have more health, deal more damage, have higher AC, better Saves, and can heal better than Bards.
In regards to the druid, only the circle of the Moon is more tanky in an HP sense, the Barbarian is more tanky than both in that regards. That being said HP is not the only thing that determines tankyness. An Oath of Devotion Paladin permanently puts half the creature types at disadvantage on attacks against it, has AC higher than a druid can dream of, better saves, can heal 100 hp at once, and is the only thing that can take out a Circle of the Moon druid at lvl 20 in elemental form on a single turn.
Unless you know of any other thing in 5e that has the potential to deal over 600 damage a turn. Yes that's right a single Paladin at lvl 20 with two attacks has the potential to deal up to a maximum of 624 damage before modifiers a turn.
No, I did exactly what I wrote and showed examples (a few of many) of where other classes are better than Paladins to illustrate why you need to define "most powerful class" in order to have a meaningful conversation.
So? A potential +22 to a (which could easily go up to a +24 with infusions) to a saving throw is still better than the Paladin's maximum of +21 on Charisma saves. Again, you need to define what you mean by "most powerful".
Not sure all of those sentences are English, but you are quite wrong in that spell casters have "nothing else" than "better spells". There are a bunch of subclasses with all sorts of cool features. Again, you need to define what you mean by "most powerful".
Better saves? Probably. More health? Very likely. Higher AC? Not necessarily. More damage? Depends on what level and spells available. As pointed out, Bards have access to the best Paladin spells way before the Paladins do. Better heal? No, not really. Again, you need to define what you mean by "most powerful".
Well, you are wrong about the druids. Circle of the Spore can easily out-HP pretty much anyone, for example. Ac is pretty irrelevant after a certain point and the wish spell can be used to both instantly heal or instantly kill someone. And being able to make a bunch of circumstantial damage is irrelevant if your enemy is to far away from you to hit it with the melee weapon you need to use to smite.
That said, you still need to define what you mean by "most powerful". You seem to be focused purely pn certain aspects of the combat par tof the game. Is that all you are interested in?
I want to address the bolded first-- This is wrong, as GWM fighters are the strongest martial in terms of raw damage, undisputed.
At their peak, a samurai will generate advantage on their turn for a bonus action and do up to 9 attacks with action surge and swift strikes on the same turn. Each swing will do about 10 GWM+5 STR+7.5 great sword average for 22.5 damage on average, or 202.5 DPR. This damage can be repeated again since they'll have two action surges per short rest.
At their peak, a paladin going nova, if we assume the same set up as above, will do 22.5+27 (6d8s from 5th lvl slot and improved divine smite), or 49.5 per swing, or 99 DPR. Even if we toss in a free 3rd attack from either an assumed GWM kill or something, 144 damage DPR (assuming a 4th lvl slot smite). This damage cannot be repeated until a long rest. Where you get 600 is puzzling. I notice you have this habit of listing numbers without explaining how you get them. You should work on that.
Second, highest combined HP and AC? I don't think so. Paladins only have a d10 hit die, just like fighters, and have access to the same armors as fighters. However, an Eldritch Knight has access to the shield spell. That's already more than a paladin using shield of faith. Heck, a bladesinger wizard can achieve 30 AC without any investment in magical equipment so imagine one that does invest!
Now, what paladins do have is safety and some utility. They've got spell casting that can ease an adventuring day in a number of ways, like purify food and drink, detect poison and disease, zone of truth, etc. Their nova isn't the best, but that's okay, cause their damage can still be pretty decent. If you include a steed (and why shouldn't you, you get them so easily!), paladins have the most mobility of any martial. You get some immunities, which is nice. I felt great in white plume mountain with my paladin, things could not charm and drown me, and I was completely immune to super tetanus. Aura of protection is real nice, it makes proficient saves feel like they cannot fail.
But paladins suffer from a number of issues. For one, they're MAD. Paladins act as martials, but want to increase their CHA. Some may ignore this and choose to play their paladins by using their slots exclusively for smites and increase STR instead, but do so at the cost of a stronger aura. Adding to this, they're incredibly feat-starved. They want RES: con, warcaster, PAM, mounted combatant, GWM, sentinel, and so forth. Yet, we only have so few opportunities to even choose in a real campaign setting!
In short, paladins are very strong, but definitely not the strongest.
Yea that 600+ damage a round confuses me as well. Assuming you are using a Greataxe and hitting a Undead/Fiend, you would do:
1d12 (Greataxe) + 1d8 (Improved Divine Smite) + 6d8 (Divine Smite against Undead/Fiend)
doubled for a crit and you now have 2d12 + 2d8 + 12d8
Assuming you rolled max damage this equals 24 + 16 + 96 = 136 per attack.
Now you can throw in another 10d10 for a crit Banishing Smite thats another 100 damage.
136 + 136 + 100 is still well short of 600. Even adding in STR modifier (assuming a STR of 20), GWM and a +3 weapon that only adds another 18 per hit so another 36 for both hits and we have a grand total of 408 which is still well short of 600.
If you didn't use Banishing Smite and instead got a 3rd attack from GWM (which shouldn't be the case since Khaldodraigo said 2 attacks) or something that is still only another 54 more damage bringing it up to a grand total of 462.
I suppose you could be a Oathbreaker and add another 5 aura damage (assuming 20 CHA) per swing upping the total to 477.
Please enlighten me if I have missed anything.
To address yall asking when I say maximum damage it is not avg roles. It is max. Yes this is not likely but it is the potential. The maximum damage a Paladin can deal is one two crits.
Further I made a mistake in my previous statement as I factored in if a Paladin had 4 attacks which is possible. The correct number on rolls and only using a longsword is 456
Banishing smite can be cast on the previous turn as a prepatory action. On the turn of the attack after your first attack you use your bonus action to cast Banishing smite again. This will give you 16d8+10d10. On a dual crit you get 32d8+20d10 which equals 456. Mind you again this is a longswords not GWM.
If you had 3 attacks from Haste this becomes 584 before modifiers (Vengence Paladin)
If you add +15 from just a +5 str and no weapon modifiers this becomes 481 and 609. The numbers only go up from there.
Yes key words are next time you hit a creature. If I cast banishing smite the turn prior it stands until my next attack.
Next turn make an attack banishing smite goes off. Use smite as well.
Use bonus action from new turn to cast banishing smite again. Second attack it goes off.
And no there is no rule that says you can not interrupt your attack to cast a bonus action spell.
Yeah, I had already deleted my post minutes before you posted this. I realized you were using both of your level 5 spells in that one turn. So it would work, but at level 19 and 20.
Are paladins the most powerful class? I would say no, but then it really depends on the type of fight and a number of other factors.
My paladin has been kicking butt in my recent game, but we have been fighting a LOT of undead recently. Battling undead and fiends is perfect for a paladin. But before this recent dungeon, we were in a number of wilderness encounters, where I felt totally useless. They were ranged fights against aerial opponents. Definitely NOT a paladin's strong suit! lol
Paladins have really good saves, any CHA based class can feel useful with all the social skill checks in the game and can do really good single target DPR, but not really over the long haul. If there are a number of encounters in the same day, my limited number of spell slots will come into play. So like all classes, there are strong points and weak points. Which is the way we would want it. If one class had everything, everybody would play it and it would be a boring game. We would all end up as "cookie cutters" of each other.
Not arguing your numbers, but isn't average DPR more useful than a potential max damage, that will never happen? The chances of rolling a double crit, then rolling all max die rolls is probably equal to your chances of winning the lottery. :)
edit - I just started doing the numbers...you have a far better chance of winning the Powerball!
Wierd stuff on my phone but I wanted to address this specifically. First lers do this and through in magic items for shits and giggles also all modifiers for this will be +5.
The bladesinger has the following items and feats to boost AC.
+3 studded leather
Defender longsword
Feat to grab shield of Faith as a spell.
Ring of protection
Cloak of protection.
Using the above items in conjunction with the shield spell and blade song the bladesinger has an AC of 38
A Paladin equipped with the following items
+3 Plate armor
+3 shield
Defender longsword
Ring of protection
Cloak of Protection
Feat to grab shield spell
The Paladin in conjunction with defensive fighting style and shield of Faith has an AC of 39
But Khaldo why didnt you give the bladesinger the fighter initiate feat. They'd both have an AC of 39 then. Well that's because I said the highest HP and AC COMBINED.
For the max damage that any class can do in a turn, I have no idea, but think fighter has to be up there. Action Surge and four weapon attacks at level 20 being the prime drivers.
I have a level 6 half orc fighter, who also has PAM and GWM. He did 105 damage in one round...at level 6 without using an Action Surge. So I think fighter has to be up there for max single turn damage potential. Again, this is assuming things that are nearly impossible to happen with crits and rolling max damage dice. So close to zero chance of it happening, but not zero chance.
When you're right, you're right.
Also for those wonder absolute max damage a Paladin can deal in a single turn here is your build.
Scourge Aasimar
Vengeance Paladin
Hammer of Thunderbolts
Belt of Cloud Giant Strength
Great Weapon Master.
Scourge Aasimar deals 30 extra damage a turn. Vengeance Paladin allows for 3 attacks. Belt of Cloud Giant Strength boost you to 27 STR. Hammer of Thunderbolts boosts you to 30 STR Great Weapon Master adds +10 damage a hit, and a third attack on a bonus action.
Turn 1 activate Scourge Aasimar ability cast banishing smite
turn 2 attack
For 3 attacks with 3 crits thats: 12d6+48d8+10d10+93=649
there you go
Oh i know its an absolute long shot im not saying it isnt but it is entirely possible and when talking single most damage a turn it is worth of showing.
Certainly shows the average damage can be comparatively high also. I have always heard it said that paladins can have really good "nova" potential i.e. a really, really big damage burst in a turn or two. It's not sustainable, but can really pack a punch when needed. They are lacking in the AOE dept that some classes like wizards and sorcerers excel at. Ranged damage can be an issue too. But if the DM is giving them a steady diet of only one encounter a day and the paladin has realized this, then he/she can really light up the damage numbers!
As a DM, the way to counter this is just simply give them several combat encounters a day. So if they blow all their resources and spell slots, they can't just smite everything into the ground. This may teach them to choose carefully whether they want to keep a spell slot or two in reserve.
This is why I subscribe to the mentality of using spell slots for a buff rather than smiting, especially early on. One slot per encounter practically lol. I tend to rely far more on short rest resources like channel divinity. This is also why I'm a fan of multi classing for more short rest resources i.e. fighter and warlock.
Again, a wish spell can just autokill people. So can an Open Hand Monk. And takinga feat to get the shield spell is something anyone can do, it's not a strength of the Paladin class. As has been pointed out, without magic items (which are never a given unless you play an artificer) the Bladesinger can get a higher. Being an Aasimar also isn't a strength of the Paladin class. The same goes for the magic items you mentioned (also not sure how "the numbers can only go up" if you just described a potential maximum.
And you still haven't defined what you mean by "most poweful class". It seems that the criteria you go by are the ones that particularly favour the Paladin, which isn't really a good measurement.
Wish? Monk? That's kinda going off on a tangent. Power isn't measured in how you "autokill." Otherwise we'd be singing praise of the aforementioned monk, and we all sure as hell don't. Even using wish to kill some one is subject to DM fiat and may end up back firing.
Paladins are good at doing large single target damage. But something like AOE can easily outclass the overall damage a paladin can do. Spellcasters and archers can do serious damage from range also. Range that paladins lack. Khal's example is of the damage a level 20 character can do. But lots of classes can do obscene damage at high levels. Have a Meteor Swarm hit a dozen enemies and see what that damage is? At level 20, everybody is super powerful imo.
Btw...90% of us will never reach level 20. ;)