that'S the thing about randomness in any games, some people get ridiculous amount of high rolls versus some others who get ridiculous ammount of low rolls. that's why people can't really compare one to another.
If that were true, casinos wouldn't be able to operate.
a grand total of an average of 34.5 damage every single rounds. unfortunately i barely ever do that. reguardless of the dice i use... i pretty much always roll low. thats my luck...sometimes i do roll high, but rarely does it really happen. in practice thanks to my luck, i more often do an average of 20 per round.
That's not your luck, that's confirmation bias. If you tracked your dice rolls you'd find they do tend towards 34.5 damage. Nobody's beaten the law of large numbers yet.
Casinos have lost countless times to random dudes with good lucks. they even have ways to identify if the win is legit or not. they even have ways to identify if someone is cheating or not. and you'd be surprised by the number of legit lucky bastards that came out with millions have gotten. why do you think casino are such a thing in las vegas ?!! the reality being, they do not care to give one man millions, if the other 35 unlucky ones gave them 50 times that amount in the same night. and this has been prooven again and again.
Confirmation Bias... I'll just say... will wheaton and I would like to show you a full night of us rolling 10,000 times the same dices and then changing to your favorite lucky die and see you cry as your own dices suddently become murphy's law best friend.
don't tell me i'm biased... i tested all my dices... and yes i did roll them about a 1000 times each. and noted all rolls... then i asked my other friend to roll the dice 1000 times the same dices i did... and the disparity in my rolls and his is ludicrous to say the least... Murphy's law at its best.
and by the way... my record and will wheatons record... is about 10 nat 1 in a single 5 hour session. while gaining literally 0 criticals. don't believe me... watch critical role, the two episode where will played... see for yourself... its uncanny, but possible and true.
As for damage, i'm talking sustained damage here... what i showed i can do all night long... not even needing any rest to gain anything... next level i can add lock smites and do much more as well as my hexblade curse who help. but i was talking sustained damage. wizards cannot sustain such damages for long. nor can paladin do it. yes you could go nova and burn it all in one fight.... but you'd be left with nothing on the next fight. My barb and our rogue, can dish out those damages for as long as we need to. which leads me to another point about paladin multiclassing into lock... the gain of 2 spell slots that comes back every short rest makes that paladin sustainability a much bigger deal. and just 5 levels of those lock levels gives you 2, 3rd level spell slots every fights.
by the way, my barb/lock is 5 barb and 2 lock right now... he's already better then if he was 7 barb.
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don't tell me i'm biased... i tested all my dices... and yes i did roll them about a 1000 times each. and noted all rolls... then i asked my other friend to roll the dice 1000 times the same dices i did... and the disparity in my rolls and his is ludicrous to say the least... Murphy's law at its best.
by the way, my barb/lock is 5 barb and 2 lock right now... he's already better then if he was 7 barb.
You have better friends than I. Outside of Kate Beckinsale, I don't think there is anyone who could get me roll dice a thousand times and record my results. Multiclasses are always stronger after that initial dip as you get that spike in power for the initial dip that gets you all the fun things. It's at higher levels that you will start falling behind. Granted, if you never get to max level, you may not see a difference, but at 20 with the extra 4 str and 4 con you will be way behind.
But back to the OP question.... You don't like Paladin as a class then because of bad dice rolling? Not something ya hear every day lol
His argument isn't very clear. I'm not sure what opinion he's actually trying to present.
More the point of that post seems to be, his barbarian build would be better than a paladin if he weren't plagued with superstition, because paladin's have too few spell slots...
On 4 more strength and constitution, don't count on that capstone being a boon for damage. There are more strength boosting items in the game and more potent than any others. I'm reluctant to play a very strength based character, because putting my ASI into the stat and then wearing a belt that puts me beyond the cap means I've wasted that resource. Giving the belt to another party member feels awkward. "You know how I was once big and strong? Well now the Wizard there can out muscle me with ease... So, I've decided to quit adventuring to take up farming instead."
In a game where you can buy your magic items... once you get that 20 con + tough feat + belt that gives you 25 strength, that capstone seems pretty useless pretty fast. then there is the power level of the other features you get at higher levels... in all seriousness, the last 6 levels of barbarian seem pretty fluffy to me. sure one could tell me they love them, but in all seriousness... when it comes to mechanics... the power level of every classes falls down after the initial levels. the only classes that do not lose on powers would be spell casters because they gain actual spells. but when it comes to abilities, most of them are just fluff when you reach higher levels.
unless you actually like the druid fluff ability that says he age much slower. and this is not opinions, mike mearls int he early unearthed arcana said himself that they added fluff ability that serves no mechanics at all. they are abilities for role play purposes. but thats the problem to me... leveling is a mechanic itself. you are supposed to get stronger by leveling, so getting fluff abilities is literally counter productive on that one. so basically what you are telling me, is that losing a few fluff level abilities actually is worth it cause the higher level capstone ability is worth losing a few no benefit levels ? sorry but i cannot take that, i can even take you thru the capstone level ability of my barbarian and tell you how counter productive it is...
Primal Champion
At 20th level, you embody the power of the wilds. Your Strength and Constitution scores increase by 4. Your maximum for those scores is now 24.
Now that looks really promising, until you read beside it, that it gives you infinite rages... the problem is that most of your abilities boost your rage already. so in the end giving you infinite rages is the same as saying... this becomes totally useless...
Persistent Rage
Beginning at 15th level, your rage is so fierce that it ends early only if you fall unconscious or if you choose to end it
sure the barbarian is a tough one, i can agree to that much. its one of the classes that gains something decent all the way up and if someone would want to go all the way up then i'd be fine with it. unfortunately it entirely depends on your DM and the gears he gives you... sorry but that DM who gives you a simple great axe +1 versus the defender great axe... i doubt you to keep the +1 axe just becaue it gives you more on criticals. your style of play will change based on your gears. and what you guys do are ignoring gears or magic items to justify the gain of your abilities.
as for saying im missing out at max levels... our games are trying to go into epic levels... 20 to 30. and i can tell you... pretty much all of us actually wanted to multi class because we pretty much all thought our gears made our classes lose out. but hey, your choice... to me, some capstone aren't worth it. barbarian capstone is not worth it if you got the gear to replace it.
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i said we're trying to get there, we're playing 5e and no we're using whats in the DMG, PHB and basically everything that is official only. small exceptions, like my satyr, because there are some good homebrew races here.
but honestly, what does it matter... oh right, we have to play by the book for it to to be right, right ? look, i have my opinions, feel free to disagree as much as you want, but that doesn't make me wrong on anything. nor should you try to tell someone that hes wrongly playing a game.
of everything i said, i emphasised it often... it is "MY" opinion. people can play the game they want, they are free to play a class all the way up to 20 if they want to. thats what i like of 5e, at least 14 levels are worth it in pretty much every classes. unlike 3e where you had to just multiclass after only 5 levels. to me 5e is the best edition yet. nothing will beat it, unless perhaps 6e which i think will be another 3.5e. but thats my choice, my opinion, my way of thinking. never said otherwise.
all in all, these arguments are futile cause they entirely depends on the game the OP is playing. i didn't change my stance on multiclassing... i feel its necessary at low levels because some classes have drawbacks that may need to be removed for some concepts to work, or heck you are forced to create your own class by multiclassing and mixing your abilities. at higher levels... when you reach level 13 and start getting access to 7th level spells, most of the abilities of your class will become useless cause those guys (spell casters) will pretty much beat you up in everything you might do except perhaps pure damage. so mechanics wise, there isn't much you can do except try to min/max your damage output. the rest is up to all of those 10 spell casters classes to do it.
but just in case... heres a rundown of what i played straight and why i multi classed...
Monk open palm --> fun to play, does tons of damage. i multi classed cause adding barb rage actually granted me more damage. the capstone was useless.
Barbarian totem --> much fun to be have. those who think low int barb are one button trick... think again... gone straight, powerfull... but adding spells like shield and absorb element thanks to sorcerer made me a much better tank then just full barb. and tough can be taken as a feat and its enough to compensate the lost of the capstone.
Bard, lore --> again much fun... but the only reason i wanted to go straight was for the spells... at much higher levels, it was imparted onto me to counterspells everything. so basically even my 9th level spell slot was used to counter. so why would i bother taking those 9th level spells... those sorcerer levels and their metas made my day much better. so basically multi classing made me a much better anti caster which was my role at that point.
Wizard, enchantment --> can't tell you how much of a role play this was. in combat... i was just dominating monsters and monsters. again capstone was good, but those levels of sorcerers in order to twin my spells were that strong in combat. imagine me casting dominate person on one guy, double casting thanks to enchantment feature. then meta twin it for a 3rd person. 3 people with only one concentration. that was uber strong.
Paladin, vengeance --> yeah it was a one trick pony... eventually we were calling him "shut up and bench" no intellect, no wisdom... just pure strength and constitution. spells were useless, all i was expected to do was damage and thus everything came into smites. so why bother choosing my spells. the avatar was looking promising... but again... if i dont cast spells then why not add more damage by forcing barb and fighter. so barb 3 gave me advantage on all attacks, rage stats and an extra bonus action attack. fighter gave me rerolls, action surge and better crits thanks to champion archetypes. never regretted those 6 levels of added goodness. that said, if it was to be remade, i'd take fighter battlemaster instead of champion.
those are pretty much the onles i have done and played up to this point. but all of them felt much better once i multi classed. at least in the concepts i was using them for.
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Play however you like, no worries there. It's just harder to answer the OP on why people don't play Paladins when your experiences are based on things that they may not have access to with them being homebrew. Classes are built to have weaknesses and be stronger at different levels and I love that about D&D. Balance does not always mean that every class can do everything. To me, taking a couple levels in a casting class as a Barbarian is useless as you can't cast while raging and will set you back from getting a second attack and more rages and other class features. I've never tried to min/max to the extent you are with combos like that, only have one multiclass character with a Bard 8 Warlock 2 and all my characters play just fine. I can tell you that an fighter at high levels is just as terrifying as a wizard and can do insane damage so keeping up is not an issue.
So to help the OP, why don't you play a non multiclass paladin?
While it is true that you cannot cast the said spells, you can cast them before raging and then rage and still have the effect on you. though apparently i dont know how to read.... because i thought you just couldn't concentrate on them. all that said... when it comes to better damage on my barb... fighter is always the way to go. thats how strong battlemaster is. same with paladins... if you want to get stronger at level 20. then going straight paladins isn't enough. say you want to specialise in one single thing and that is damage. mathematically... a paladin fighter with maybe 1 level of barb for rage is enough to be a true nova. reason being that while you do expend spell slots... you are not casting spells nor keeping concentrations and thus you can still smite. the same way i've seen druid paladins transformed into animals and just smites their way into people.
to the OP, again my opinion only... but isn't that what you asked for ? to me paladins aren't good at level 20 if they are straight, they lack many speciality. they are only half casters, they sure pack a punch but could pack much more. and worst of all, as tanks they do have healing, but they require to lose their actions to stay awake. while fighter and barb do not lose their actions to stay awake. all in all, paladins are strong for their support of others, but they lack anything else. not by much, but still requires some effort to get into what they need to specialise.
but i will say this... just because of their auras... you can easily kiss good bye any good stories about fear and saving throws... Dragons cannot use their frightening auras, demons cannot charm or affect players magically. and if that paladins is like my friend and really knows how to play his spells... he will simply wreck any encounters you will throw at your party, simply because hes there. so yeah, i say paladins are a must in any group just because of their auras. but if you expect them to do better then any others... i don't think you will be satisfyed by it. they need a bit of effort to make into a specialist.
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Im currently playing on Oath of the Aichents pally, currently lvl 7. I used to have the stigma of avoiding a pally, especially in 3.5. In the 5e campaign, I've had so much fun. I avoided pally in 3.5 because of the alignment restriction. In 5e I've gone for a tank build. With Full Plate, Sheild, and defense fighting style I had 21 AC. With a recent aquirement of a ring of protection and a cloak of protection +2, my AC is 24. Cast Divine protection an AC of 26. With my oath auras my saves are extra high and I'm resistant to all magic damage. Damage output is on the lower end of the party, but when nothing can hit you, you win eventually. Mechanically He is the best tank I've ever seen. Role play is also fun because The Oath of the Ancients, is about spreading and being the light. Less I must crush all evil and more I will foster the good in others and seek to build people up. It's been lots of fun. I think people avoid palladin because they think a pally can be played in only one way, but with all their oaths, you have many options to give you character motivation, just through your base build. I really like palladins now, when I used to avoid them.
Straach, you seriously be at level 7 and already have an impossible AC of 25 ? gosh, your DM is way too liberal on magic items.
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Actually the Cloak of Protection is an uncommon magic item that isn't hard to come across either by discovery or through purchase. The Ring of Protection being rare is a little more difficult, but at level 7 that's about where you would start finding or acquiring magical items in that rarity. There are pre-written games that I've played which give you +1 weapon, shield, armor, and a magical trinket in or around level 5, so to say he's got those is not farfetched nor does it mean his DM is being too liberal. Afterall, it is his game.
24+ AC is pretty high but that's not so ridiculous. One of my current toons is a Paladin (OoV) and has an AC of 22 with Full Plate (18), Defense Fighting Style (19), and a +1 shield (22), and that's level 6 so far. That's how I wanted to build him so I could be an effective Tank and also achieve lock-downs with the amazing Sentinel feat.
yet at level 6 most of the monsters would need a 17+ to actually hit you. also, full plate ? i'm a paladin too, and i don't even have a full plate yet and i'm level 4. so my AC started at 16 cause of chain mail, not 18. unless your DM allowed you to have a full plate at the beginning, that 1500 gold full plate should of been only recently acquired. in 5e it is not like its easy to get 1500 gold pieces.
all i'm saying is that my friend paladin who was level 11. only had 21 AC. they had not a ton of money and the magic item tables eve though they are uncommon items, on the tables, they barely ever appear. they are uncommon yes, but are still super rare to get. at level 7... having an actual cloak and a ring, means they had a bunch of hoards coming their way and that his DM is having sallable magical wear and probably give them way too much money for it.
i can tell you... i just rolled like 10 hoardsa nd have gotten none of the cloaks nor the rings. don'T get me wrong, i'm not saying they shouldn'T have it, nor i am saying they shouldn't play like that... i'm just saying WoW you guys are lucky ! i can only imagine what the others got if the paladin got that already. and i will tell you this.. at level 7 with the gears they have, they can already take on deadly encounters about 10 levels above them. that's some firepower over there !
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The party rogue "bought" my plate armor. As a player I was laughing, If my character ever finds out it was stolen, well, not much he can do, that rogue died trying to save little children.
The ring was a nice find after a large battle.
The cloak was an interesting "find". The DM set up an encounter with a devil where we could make a one time deal. We could sell our soul to gain an +2 to an ability or a feat, or we could trade life for a magic Item, lowering our HP total. The higher rarity the more life we had to pay with. I surprised the entire party by going for making the deal with a devil. While I technically didn't break my oath, the DM says there will still be some unforeseen consequences for that deal. Which I can agree with and am actually very interested in finding out what he comes up with.
I recently got into this conversation and built properly at lvl 5 with just plate, a +1 shield, ring of protection, any finesse weapon, defensive fighting style, shield of Faith and duelist feat a Paladin would have a 28 AC at lvl 5 with only two magic items. Both of those magic items you get in season 9 of AL. The shield you can pick just for hitting lvl 5 and the ring of protection you get for having faction agent as a background.
As for Plate I've repeatedly found plate at lvl 2 after looting it from a corpse in WotC module games. The first time we bypassed the entire first half of the dungeon and then fought a lvl 5 fighter with plate. We technically should have been lvl 3 but went through the wrong door that brought us to the back of the dungeon. And the second time it was just sitting there.
Was interesting to read through these newer comments, thank you all for sharing your personal stories. I know when the topic was originally posted, it may have gotten a tad out of hand, but Im glad you all were able to reign it in and be civil about your experiences and opinions.
May you all have bountiful campaigns ahead of you. I have not played in well over a year now.
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It did not come without sacrifice. The cloak was acquired after making a deal with a Devil we encountered. It is potentially having an effect on my class/alignment because of the deal I made. It also cost me to sacrifice maximum HP to aquire the item. The game can still be a lot of fun regardless of being a strict or liberal DM.
We actually have a party of 10 so we have been fighting high level monsters for a long time. We fight low level monsters too. Our group focuses more on roleplay than on combat although we do have combat often. The roleplay has been amazing though. He actually just barely started letting us get magical items. We level up very slow. We have been playing bi-weekly (very consistently) for about a year and a half and just reached level 7. Our campaign setting has very few people in the world due Mass starvation because of the sun dying (god of light was killed). So we find coin infrequently. A lot of us recently acquired very powerful magical items but a permanent -20 to Max HP was required for some of those rare items. It was a very fun encounter with that devil.
Was interesting to read through these newer comments, thank you all for sharing your personal stories. I know when the topic was originally posted, it may have gotten a tad out of hand, but Im glad you all were able to reign it in and be civil about your experiences and opinions.
May you all have bountiful campaigns ahead of you. I have not played in well over a year now.
In my in person group I play a paladin, cause we were doing a campaign designed for 6 players with only 4 for a more challenge. So needed a melee and healer at same time.
but overall... I don’t really like paladin too much. Paladins just don’t feel fair. As a paladin. With 20 CBA. I can cancel out, and then some, having a 4-5 in int/wis/dex just because of aura of protection.
so, literally any stat that isn’t str/cha/con is a complete dump stat in terms of functionality.
they have good hit die. Equip damn near anything. Effective at any range. And depending on your path. You can be quite OP at crowd control tactics to draw aggro, or restrict movement, or lessen the enemies, etc etc.
from an RP standpoint, you get less flexibility on Paladins (exception Oathbreakers) as you do any other class.
just sayinbg, those who think 26 AC is nothing... consider that a tarrasque maximum AC, which is a CR 30 creature and should be a challenge even for those level 20 folks, is 25 ! literally the hard cap for normal AC without magical items is 25. the same way the hard cap for those to hit without magical gear is +17. 5e is literally designed for you to have maximum gained 50,000 gold from level 1 to level 20. 5e is "not" a high magic setting. if your DM literally gave you 26ac because of magical items at level 7. he literally decided to make you play in a high magic setting, which again, 5e is not.
all i was saying. by the book, you shouldn'T be able to afford a full plate for your warrior until about level 7, which you are... but thats a lucky shot still. even if you did find a full plate on a creature, it is written in the dungeon masters guide... or the player handbook, not sure anymore. but to readjust that full plate to fit your own, it either needs to be magical, or needs to be refitted to you, which still cost you half the mats, which is still 750gp.
you guys can play whatever game you want, having fun is mandatory in d&d. so i'm not saying you shouldn't play or whatever. all i am saying is that you are lucky to have a DM who doesn't play by 5e rules. because me, i started giving away hoards after hoards to my players, because by 5e rulings, they still have next to no magical gears. and they are level 8 and about to be level 9.
also for those who are interested to know... the magical random table are designed to give you 1 rare items every 100 items. 5e is literally designed to be a very low magic item settings where magical gears are suposed to be very rare and keepable. myself comes from a high magical gear setting. and i even created interplanar sellers for my players to buy magical gears from. but recently i enjoyed a normal game of dungeon and dragons without magical gears. it kinda brought back to a more realistick gaming where my monsters can still do things to my players without them having upper hands because of magical gears.
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I'll just say... will wheaton and I would like to show you a full night of us rolling 10,000 times the same dices and then changing to your favorite lucky die and see you cry as your own dices suddently become murphy's law best friend.
and by the way... my record and will wheatons record... is about 10 nat 1 in a single 5 hour session. while gaining literally 0 criticals. don't believe me... watch critical role, the two episode where will played... see for yourself... its uncanny, but possible and true.
next level i can add lock smites and do much more as well as my hexblade curse who help. but i was talking sustained damage. wizards cannot sustain such damages for long. nor can paladin do it. yes you could go nova and burn it all in one fight.... but you'd be left with nothing on the next fight. My barb and our rogue, can dish out those damages for as long as we need to. which leads me to another point about paladin multiclassing into lock... the gain of 2 spell slots that comes back every short rest makes that paladin sustainability a much bigger deal. and just 5 levels of those lock levels gives you 2, 3rd level spell slots every fights.
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You're rambling... Get some sleep and try for a coherent position tomorrow.
Extended Signature
His argument isn't very clear. I'm not sure what opinion he's actually trying to present.
More the point of that post seems to be, his barbarian build would be better than a paladin if he weren't plagued with superstition, because paladin's have too few spell slots...
On 4 more strength and constitution, don't count on that capstone being a boon for damage. There are more strength boosting items in the game and more potent than any others. I'm reluctant to play a very strength based character, because putting my ASI into the stat and then wearing a belt that puts me beyond the cap means I've wasted that resource. Giving the belt to another party member feels awkward. "You know how I was once big and strong? Well now the Wizard there can out muscle me with ease... So, I've decided to quit adventuring to take up farming instead."
Extended Signature
In a game where you can buy your magic items... once you get that 20 con + tough feat + belt that gives you 25 strength, that capstone seems pretty useless pretty fast.
then there is the power level of the other features you get at higher levels... in all seriousness, the last 6 levels of barbarian seem pretty fluffy to me. sure one could tell me they love them, but in all seriousness... when it comes to mechanics... the power level of every classes falls down after the initial levels. the only classes that do not lose on powers would be spell casters because they gain actual spells. but when it comes to abilities, most of them are just fluff when you reach higher levels.
unless you actually like the druid fluff ability that says he age much slower.
and this is not opinions, mike mearls int he early unearthed arcana said himself that they added fluff ability that serves no mechanics at all. they are abilities for role play purposes. but thats the problem to me... leveling is a mechanic itself. you are supposed to get stronger by leveling, so getting fluff abilities is literally counter productive on that one. so basically what you are telling me, is that losing a few fluff level abilities actually is worth it cause the higher level capstone ability is worth losing a few no benefit levels ? sorry but i cannot take that, i can even take you thru the capstone level ability of my barbarian and tell you how counter productive it is...
Now that looks really promising, until you read beside it, that it gives you infinite rages...
the problem is that most of your abilities boost your rage already. so in the end giving you infinite rages is the same as saying... this becomes totally useless...
sure the barbarian is a tough one, i can agree to that much. its one of the classes that gains something decent all the way up and if someone would want to go all the way up then i'd be fine with it. unfortunately it entirely depends on your DM and the gears he gives you... sorry but that DM who gives you a simple great axe +1 versus the defender great axe... i doubt you to keep the +1 axe just becaue it gives you more on criticals. your style of play will change based on your gears. and what you guys do are ignoring gears or magic items to justify the gain of your abilities.
as for saying im missing out at max levels... our games are trying to go into epic levels... 20 to 30. and i can tell you... pretty much all of us actually wanted to multi class because we pretty much all thought our gears made our classes lose out. but hey, your choice... to me, some capstone aren't worth it. barbarian capstone is not worth it if you got the gear to replace it.
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Are you home brewing epic levels or not playing 5e?
i said we're trying to get there, we're playing 5e and no we're using whats in the DMG, PHB and basically everything that is official only.
small exceptions, like my satyr, because there are some good homebrew races here.
but honestly, what does it matter... oh right, we have to play by the book for it to to be right, right ?
look, i have my opinions, feel free to disagree as much as you want, but that doesn't make me wrong on anything. nor should you try to tell someone that hes wrongly playing a game.
of everything i said, i emphasised it often... it is "MY" opinion. people can play the game they want, they are free to play a class all the way up to 20 if they want to. thats what i like of 5e, at least 14 levels are worth it in pretty much every classes. unlike 3e where you had to just multiclass after only 5 levels. to me 5e is the best edition yet. nothing will beat it, unless perhaps 6e which i think will be another 3.5e. but thats my choice, my opinion, my way of thinking. never said otherwise.
all in all, these arguments are futile cause they entirely depends on the game the OP is playing.
i didn't change my stance on multiclassing... i feel its necessary at low levels because some classes have drawbacks that may need to be removed for some concepts to work, or heck you are forced to create your own class by multiclassing and mixing your abilities. at higher levels... when you reach level 13 and start getting access to 7th level spells, most of the abilities of your class will become useless cause those guys (spell casters) will pretty much beat you up in everything you might do except perhaps pure damage. so mechanics wise, there isn't much you can do except try to min/max your damage output. the rest is up to all of those 10 spell casters classes to do it.
but just in case... heres a rundown of what i played straight and why i multi classed...
Monk open palm --> fun to play, does tons of damage. i multi classed cause adding barb rage actually granted me more damage. the capstone was useless.
Barbarian totem --> much fun to be have. those who think low int barb are one button trick... think again... gone straight, powerfull... but adding spells like shield and absorb element thanks to sorcerer made me a much better tank then just full barb. and tough can be taken as a feat and its enough to compensate the lost of the capstone.
Bard, lore --> again much fun... but the only reason i wanted to go straight was for the spells... at much higher levels, it was imparted onto me to counterspells everything. so basically even my 9th level spell slot was used to counter. so why would i bother taking those 9th level spells... those sorcerer levels and their metas made my day much better. so basically multi classing made me a much better anti caster which was my role at that point.
Wizard, enchantment --> can't tell you how much of a role play this was. in combat... i was just dominating monsters and monsters. again capstone was good, but those levels of sorcerers in order to twin my spells were that strong in combat. imagine me casting dominate person on one guy, double casting thanks to enchantment feature. then meta twin it for a 3rd person. 3 people with only one concentration. that was uber strong.
Paladin, vengeance --> yeah it was a one trick pony... eventually we were calling him "shut up and bench" no intellect, no wisdom... just pure strength and constitution. spells were useless, all i was expected to do was damage and thus everything came into smites. so why bother choosing my spells. the avatar was looking promising... but again... if i dont cast spells then why not add more damage by forcing barb and fighter. so barb 3 gave me advantage on all attacks, rage stats and an extra bonus action attack. fighter gave me rerolls, action surge and better crits thanks to champion archetypes. never regretted those 6 levels of added goodness. that said, if it was to be remade, i'd take fighter battlemaster instead of champion.
those are pretty much the onles i have done and played up to this point. but all of them felt much better once i multi classed. at least in the concepts i was using them for.
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Play however you like, no worries there. It's just harder to answer the OP on why people don't play Paladins when your experiences are based on things that they may not have access to with them being homebrew. Classes are built to have weaknesses and be stronger at different levels and I love that about D&D. Balance does not always mean that every class can do everything. To me, taking a couple levels in a casting class as a Barbarian is useless as you can't cast while raging and will set you back from getting a second attack and more rages and other class features. I've never tried to min/max to the extent you are with combos like that, only have one multiclass character with a Bard 8 Warlock 2 and all my characters play just fine. I can tell you that an fighter at high levels is just as terrifying as a wizard and can do insane damage so keeping up is not an issue.
So to help the OP, why don't you play a non multiclass paladin?
While it is true that you cannot cast the said spells, you can cast them before raging and then rage and still have the effect on you.
though apparently i dont know how to read.... because i thought you just couldn't concentrate on them.
all that said... when it comes to better damage on my barb... fighter is always the way to go. thats how strong battlemaster is. same with paladins... if you want to get stronger at level 20. then going straight paladins isn't enough. say you want to specialise in one single thing and that is damage. mathematically... a paladin fighter with maybe 1 level of barb for rage is enough to be a true nova. reason being that while you do expend spell slots... you are not casting spells nor keeping concentrations and thus you can still smite. the same way i've seen druid paladins transformed into animals and just smites their way into people.
to the OP, again my opinion only... but isn't that what you asked for ?
to me paladins aren't good at level 20 if they are straight, they lack many speciality. they are only half casters, they sure pack a punch but could pack much more.
and worst of all, as tanks they do have healing, but they require to lose their actions to stay awake. while fighter and barb do not lose their actions to stay awake.
all in all, paladins are strong for their support of others, but they lack anything else. not by much, but still requires some effort to get into what they need to specialise.
but i will say this...
just because of their auras... you can easily kiss good bye any good stories about fear and saving throws...
Dragons cannot use their frightening auras, demons cannot charm or affect players magically. and if that paladins is like my friend and really knows how to play his spells... he will simply wreck any encounters you will throw at your party, simply because hes there. so yeah, i say paladins are a must in any group just because of their auras. but if you expect them to do better then any others... i don't think you will be satisfyed by it. they need a bit of effort to make into a specialist.
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Im currently playing on Oath of the Aichents pally, currently lvl 7. I used to have the stigma of avoiding a pally, especially in 3.5. In the 5e campaign, I've had so much fun. I avoided pally in 3.5 because of the alignment restriction. In 5e I've gone for a tank build. With Full Plate, Sheild, and defense fighting style I had 21 AC. With a recent aquirement of a ring of protection and a cloak of protection +2, my AC is 24. Cast Divine protection an AC of 26. With my oath auras my saves are extra high and I'm resistant to all magic damage. Damage output is on the lower end of the party, but when nothing can hit you, you win eventually. Mechanically He is the best tank I've ever seen. Role play is also fun because The Oath of the Ancients, is about spreading and being the light. Less I must crush all evil and more I will foster the good in others and seek to build people up. It's been lots of fun. I think people avoid palladin because they think a pally can be played in only one way, but with all their oaths, you have many options to give you character motivation, just through your base build. I really like palladins now, when I used to avoid them.
Straach, you seriously be at level 7 and already have an impossible AC of 25 ? gosh, your DM is way too liberal on magic items.
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Actually the Cloak of Protection is an uncommon magic item that isn't hard to come across either by discovery or through purchase. The Ring of Protection being rare is a little more difficult, but at level 7 that's about where you would start finding or acquiring magical items in that rarity. There are pre-written games that I've played which give you +1 weapon, shield, armor, and a magical trinket in or around level 5, so to say he's got those is not farfetched nor does it mean his DM is being too liberal. Afterall, it is his game.
24+ AC is pretty high but that's not so ridiculous. One of my current toons is a Paladin (OoV) and has an AC of 22 with Full Plate (18), Defense Fighting Style (19), and a +1 shield (22), and that's level 6 so far. That's how I wanted to build him so I could be an effective Tank and also achieve lock-downs with the amazing Sentinel feat.
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yet at level 6 most of the monsters would need a 17+ to actually hit you.
also, full plate ?
i'm a paladin too, and i don't even have a full plate yet and i'm level 4. so my AC started at 16 cause of chain mail, not 18.
unless your DM allowed you to have a full plate at the beginning, that 1500 gold full plate should of been only recently acquired.
in 5e it is not like its easy to get 1500 gold pieces.
all i'm saying is that my friend paladin who was level 11. only had 21 AC.
they had not a ton of money and the magic item tables eve though they are uncommon items, on the tables, they barely ever appear. they are uncommon yes, but are still super rare to get. at level 7... having an actual cloak and a ring, means they had a bunch of hoards coming their way and that his DM is having sallable magical wear and probably give them way too much money for it.
i can tell you... i just rolled like 10 hoardsa nd have gotten none of the cloaks nor the rings.
don'T get me wrong, i'm not saying they shouldn'T have it, nor i am saying they shouldn't play like that...
i'm just saying WoW you guys are lucky ! i can only imagine what the others got if the paladin got that already.
and i will tell you this.. at level 7 with the gears they have, they can already take on deadly encounters about 10 levels above them.
that's some firepower over there !
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The party rogue "bought" my plate armor. As a player I was laughing, If my character ever finds out it was stolen, well, not much he can do, that rogue died trying to save little children.
The ring was a nice find after a large battle.
The cloak was an interesting "find". The DM set up an encounter with a devil where we could make a one time deal. We could sell our soul to gain an +2 to an ability or a feat, or we could trade life for a magic Item, lowering our HP total. The higher rarity the more life we had to pay with. I surprised the entire party by going for making the deal with a devil. While I technically didn't break my oath, the DM says there will still be some unforeseen consequences for that deal. Which I can agree with and am actually very interested in finding out what he comes up with.
26 AC is not high. At lvl 7.
I recently got into this conversation and built properly at lvl 5 with just plate, a +1 shield, ring of protection, any finesse weapon, defensive fighting style, shield of Faith and duelist feat a Paladin would have a 28 AC at lvl 5 with only two magic items. Both of those magic items you get in season 9 of AL. The shield you can pick just for hitting lvl 5 and the ring of protection you get for having faction agent as a background.
As for Plate I've repeatedly found plate at lvl 2 after looting it from a corpse in WotC module games. The first time we bypassed the entire first half of the dungeon and then fought a lvl 5 fighter with plate. We technically should have been lvl 3 but went through the wrong door that brought us to the back of the dungeon. And the second time it was just sitting there.
Was interesting to read through these newer comments, thank you all for sharing your personal stories. I know when the topic was originally posted, it may have gotten a tad out of hand, but Im glad you all were able to reign it in and be civil about your experiences and opinions.
May you all have bountiful campaigns ahead of you. I have not played in well over a year now.
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It did not come without sacrifice. The cloak was acquired after making a deal with a Devil we encountered. It is potentially having an effect on my class/alignment because of the deal I made. It also cost me to sacrifice maximum HP to aquire the item. The game can still be a lot of fun regardless of being a strict or liberal DM.
We actually have a party of 10 so we have been fighting high level monsters for a long time. We fight low level monsters too. Our group focuses more on roleplay than on combat although we do have combat often. The roleplay has been amazing though. He actually just barely started letting us get magical items. We level up very slow. We have been playing bi-weekly (very consistently) for about a year and a half and just reached level 7. Our campaign setting has very few people in the world due Mass starvation because of the sun dying (god of light was killed). So we find coin infrequently. A lot of us recently acquired very powerful magical items but a permanent -20 to Max HP was required for some of those rare items. It was a very fun encounter with that devil.
In my in person group I play a paladin, cause we were doing a campaign designed for 6 players with only 4 for a more challenge. So needed a melee and healer at same time.
but overall... I don’t really like paladin too much. Paladins just don’t feel fair. As a paladin. With 20 CBA. I can cancel out, and then some, having a 4-5 in int/wis/dex just because of aura of protection.
so, literally any stat that isn’t str/cha/con is a complete dump stat in terms of functionality.
they have good hit die. Equip damn near anything. Effective at any range. And depending on your path. You can be quite OP at crowd control tactics to draw aggro, or restrict movement, or lessen the enemies, etc etc.
from an RP standpoint, you get less flexibility on Paladins (exception Oathbreakers) as you do any other class.
just sayinbg, those who think 26 AC is nothing...
consider that a tarrasque maximum AC, which is a CR 30 creature and should be a challenge even for those level 20 folks, is 25 !
literally the hard cap for normal AC without magical items is 25. the same way the hard cap for those to hit without magical gear is +17.
5e is literally designed for you to have maximum gained 50,000 gold from level 1 to level 20.
5e is "not" a high magic setting. if your DM literally gave you 26ac because of magical items at level 7. he literally decided to make you play in a high magic setting, which again, 5e is not.
all i was saying.
by the book, you shouldn'T be able to afford a full plate for your warrior until about level 7, which you are... but thats a lucky shot still.
even if you did find a full plate on a creature, it is written in the dungeon masters guide... or the player handbook, not sure anymore. but to readjust that full plate to fit your own, it either needs to be magical, or needs to be refitted to you, which still cost you half the mats, which is still 750gp.
you guys can play whatever game you want, having fun is mandatory in d&d. so i'm not saying you shouldn't play or whatever. all i am saying is that you are lucky to have a DM who doesn't play by 5e rules. because me, i started giving away hoards after hoards to my players, because by 5e rulings, they still have next to no magical gears. and they are level 8 and about to be level 9.
also for those who are interested to know...
the magical random table are designed to give you 1 rare items every 100 items.
5e is literally designed to be a very low magic item settings where magical gears are suposed to be very rare and keepable.
myself comes from a high magical gear setting. and i even created interplanar sellers for my players to buy magical gears from. but recently i enjoyed a normal game of dungeon and dragons without magical gears. it kinda brought back to a more realistick gaming where my monsters can still do things to my players without them having upper hands because of magical gears.
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