As a dedicated Paladin player, who often browses games via Roll20 and DnDBeyond posts for games to join, I have noticed a severe lack of Paladin players in groups. Granted D&D is all about self choice, but it begs the queation,
"What makes the Paladin so undesirable?"
Unearthed Arcana attempted to change the Paladin, but there has not been an increase in choice, and the changes were not as "empowering" as some others. The Ranger, for example, was almost a complete over haul.
Its all opinion based here, looking forward to the fruitful discussions!
The Paladin class is solid mechanically. It's just not as popular as other character archetypes.
Also keep in mind that the revised Ranger isn't official or final. The only reason the Ranger class got as much of an overhaul as it did is because many players weren't satisfied with the class (mostly with the Beast Master subclass.)
I'm not necessarily sure about playing Paladin. I typically like to play characters that are chaotic-neutral and don't really have any ties to fiends (Warlock) or celestial beings (Paladin & Cleric). My reason for not choosing Paladin is not only because of that but also because if I was planning on making a melee class I would just do melee and the same if I was to be a spell caster. I'm not planning on doing both at the same time...
I like the Paladin, but the minimum requirement for Str 13 kills a lot of what I want to achieve in a multiclass. I once had a Vengence Paladin with the Criminal Background (think Antihero), and I realized later on that I really wished I had a 1st lvl in Rogue for more skills, and the rest of it Paladin until around 7th when I'd take more Rogue. The requirement to dump 5 of the my Point Buy Points into a stat I don't really care much about gimps what I'm trying to achieve. The designers never designed Paladins to be dex based with light armor and Stealth. So having your Oath of the Ancients look like a Paladin that could have been a Ranger in a lot of ways just never builds.
I love the new Paladin and the fact that they have Oaths instead of necessarily following a God is great.
I think the problem with the Paladin's popularity is that it is sort of a middle-class between Fighter and Cleric and people, especially newer players, who are trying to round out a party tend to aim for the four core classes first (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric), which leaves the Paladin in an odd place. Fighters are pretty simple and can grow in complexity with the player's wishes. Clerics are usually the first suggestion when someone wants to play a healer. Unlike Paladin, Sorcerers and Warlocks are just seen as variations on the theme of "spell caster" that Wizard occupies, so it's more likely that the spellcaster of the group will be a non-core class than the others. Rogue is usually the core class most often replaced by a non-core class as 5th Ed makes it really easy for anyone who takes a Background that give proficiency in Thieves Tools to fill that roll as well as their own.
Anyway, like I said, I don't think enough parties think of Paladin as a good fit right off the bat and that decreases their usage dramatically.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
The designers never designed Paladins to be dex based with light armor and Stealth. So having your Oath of the Ancients look like a Paladin that could have been a Ranger in a lot of ways just never builds.
Other than having 1 less AC at certain points, there isn't much of a difference between a DEX paladin with a rapier and shield and a STR paladin with a longsword and shield. Going DEX also lets you use Defensive Duelist, which is really nice at higher levels, or Elven Accuracy, which helps score more critical smites.
I love the Paladin, and I even have one in my game right now. LG, Oath of the Crown, Full Plate, Sword and Board Badassery and all. I even enjoy playing up the knight in shining armor demon vanquisher part. A LOT! I pretty much save his spell slots for smites, and have eyed once or twice a 3 level deep dip into Fighter for Champion (never did it as the options in Pally are so tasty), but on the whole I am very happy with the way the character turned out.
FullMetalBunny is however on the nose addressing one of the construction issues with Pallys. They "need" so many stats. I looked and I did not see a 13 STR minimum listed, but well INT is likely the only stat you don't really need. STR (Hit and Damage for the most part), DEX (Init and Ranged Hit and Damage), CON (Obvious reasons), WIS (Saving Throws), CHA (All of your Special Abilities like AURAs). Now, I *loathe* point buy, but I see why some DMs require it. I *loathe* standard array for the same reason. I do not think the designers are saying you shouldn't build a lightly armored skirmisher Pally, but if you are planning on Multiclassing, you need to roll for your character's stats.
They "need" so many stats. I looked and I did not see a 13 STR minimum listed, but well INT is likely the only stat you don't really need. STR (Hit and Damage for the most part), DEX (Init and Ranged Hit and Damage), CON (Obvious reasons), WIS (Saving Throws), CHA (All of your Special Abilities like AURAs).
You can throw javelins using strength, and it doesn't make sense to invest in WIS since increasing your CHA will increase all your saving throws (including concentration saves). You really only need high STR or DEX, high CHA, and just enough CON to avoid going down in 1 nasty attack or spell.
1d8 vs 2d6 is a pretty big difference, especially when you start getting extra attacks or if you roll a crit on attack.
Sure, at the cost of 2 AC. Dueling Fighting Style helps close the gap if you care about damage (it adds 2 damage per attack, while GWF FS only adds ~1.33 to a 2d6 weapon.)
Two problems with Paladins. One is the old problem. Paladins get the stigma of religious zealots. So close to the very thing they hate. Blinded by their convictions. Now you don't have to play a paladin this way particularly in 5e. In 3.5 you lost your abilities if you didn't maintain your lawful good alignment. So though the restriction is lost the stigma remains. Some people want to play an over the top religious zealot, but most people don't.
The second is mechanical. Most classes are more versatile and creative. Problems, choices. Players want to make a unique and interesting build, but the Paladin is structured in a way that limits the players creativity mechanically, or at least has creative hurdles.
I play a paladin/warlock that will eventually be a Paladin/Warlock/Sorcerer/something. He has 13 Str only to allow multiclassing, 14 Dec for effective use of medium armor and to supplement his Stealth proficiency, and 16 Cha to start. I took Hexblade Warlock at level-2 so I could use Cha to attack. (I'd initially started with the plan to take The Seeker from UA and get Charisma to attack with Pact of the Tome and Shillelagh. Then Xanathar's came out.)
As a character he's searching the world for the knowledge and experience to defend his humble village (and the world) from ruin. At home there was only the church, there was only piety. But traveling he is able to broaden his horizons. But most paladin's don't broaden their horizons and so are stuck with their zealous reputation.
Currently playing a winged Tiefling Oath of Vengeance Paladin in ToA - my first Paladin (we're only level 3 - so perhaps that's why) and I must say I am fairly unimpressed. I only get 3 spell slots - making divine smite mostly worthless (but a paladin skill) compared to actually casting a spell (unless you're fighting undead I guess - I find myself hoarding my spell slots because I have so few of them between rests) there are a few other mechanical bits I either don't know how to use effectively or just aren't working well for my particular instance.
as far as RP goes - it takes a special kind of person to play that kind of religious zealot - a lot of players IMHO would probably rather be liked by their team mates instead of being annoyed by their rigidness (mine is a paladin of Kelemvor - so the undead are hated above all other things - which has caused my character to run off after some zombies that were across the river from us - because they must be destroyed at all costs - instead of just generally leaving them be because they weren't directly going to encounter us - why? because based on his character - he wouldn't just let some undead wander around if he could help it)
He's by far the most against the grain character I've played - where I've had to sit back and think, not what I would do (avoid the zombies in the above case because they were no immediate threat) but what would my character do - based upon the ideals, flaws etc that he has (must kill all undead no matter what the cost because they are an affront to the natural order)
Perhaps he'll come in to his own if I get another level or so - but even as a tank I've found him not being as tanky as other characters I've played can be - some of this I will chalk up to perhaps my inexperience playing the class.
as far as RP goes - it takes a special kind of person to play that kind of religious zealot - a lot of players IMHO would probably rather be liked by their team mates instead of being annoyed by their rigidness
Nothing in the description of the class suggests you have to be religious or a zealot; you just have to be someone sworn to destroy evil. There's a loooot of room for different character types in that concept, ranging from Superman/Captain America/Green Lantern types to anti-hero Batman types all the way down to killers like The Punisher.
And even for the religious zealot types, there's no reason to be irrational. Is getting yourself killed slaying mindless zombies really better than surviving to find their source? Kelemvor needs you alive to do his bidding.
Seems to me that if your party doesn't like the paladin - then they are playing them correctly hehe
Perhaps paladin is a misnomer then for the class - since traditionally paladins have always represented Christian valor in the real world and in D&D as a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order, and is a divine spellcaster and in 5E they aren't (which I suppose is on me for making my assumptions of the class based upon previous incarnations of them within the D&D world - I started back in 1st edition)
So the 'Superman/Captain America/Green Lantern types to anti-hero Batman types' doesn't really fit in with the old holy knight aspect from previous editions
*shrug* you do bring up good points however :)
I am not an experienced Paladin player by any stretch of the imagination so I just have opinions based upon my experiences - which I felt relevant to the OP's question :)
I blame the lack of new shinies. In my experience, online play tends people wanting to try out new things as they come out, or some other new combinations of things, and the paladins haven't really had anything that stands out in Xanathar. At least, not in a good way. Both Evil characters and pacifist characters have the potential to disrupt the flow of a game, and the Xanathar pally subclasses have high potential to do just that.
The paladin in 5e says nothing abut being a religious zealot. I really like that Paladins are about an ideal, not necessarily even religious. That was one of the best changes they made from 2nd to 5th was the removal of, BDaddLyas says stigma. I think stigma is a great word for it, because it's something in players minds that's not necessarily present in the game.
I also disagree with the sentiment that Paladin's Smite doesn't get enough charges. Yes, it's only 2 per day at lvl 2 and goes up as a half caster. I've always found myself being conservative with my spell slots as a Paladin, but it's an ability to use wisely not constantly.
To your point about Dex vs Strength Paladins and only losing 1 possible AC. Yes, that's not that big of an issue, but the 13 Strength requirement for Multiclassing means a Paladin has to waste 5 build points JUST so they can mix in other dex based abilities. Also, Paladins can't Two Weapon Fight, without multiclassing. Those two make it very clear they never anticipated Paladins to be dex based because they didn't build for the option.
Zealotry is not a requirement for being a Paladin. I, in general, think that some players get hung up on this concept as well. I mean just look at the concept of Lawful Stupid vs. Lawful Good. Just because your character is Lawful Good does not mean that he or she is going to do things that are not well thought out. A few posts up a Player mentioned his Pally attacking Zombies in Chult that were *not* menacing the party in any way. Now, yes the Pally was a devotee of Kelemvor (LN God of the Dead in FR IIRC), but given the situation, this character should have been able to reason through the facts and just walk away if only because of the greater issue at hand: the Death Curse! If he and the party die or are diminished by acting "zealously" then the Paladin is *not* fulfilling his oath or God's edicts. YMMV.
As to Smites, well I always have enough because I save them for when I need them. Usually, in battles and only when I crit, that way I maximize their impact. Having anywhere from 2 to 12 smites per day is more than enough for Tier1 to Tier2 Pallys. Also, upon reaching level 10 IIRC, a Pally gets a constant mini smite in 1d8 extra Radiant damage every attack so it is cool.
Now, I don't pretend to know the mind of the designers when they crafted the Ability Mins. for Multiclassing. It could just be that they thought "Fighter-Barbarian-Ranger-Paladin rely mainly on STR so group them there." and never considered a DEX Pally. Whatever. Outside of AL does it really matter? I posit that is does not, and for the character (not the class) I'd just handwave it.
All that being said, the Shining Knight Paladin in Plate is still my favorite Pally.
Now, I don't pretend to know the mind of the designers when they crafted the Ability Mins. for Multiclassing. It could just be that they thought "Fighter-Barbarian-Ranger-Paladin rely mainly on STR so group them there." and never considered a DEX Pally. Whatever. Outside of AL does it really matter? I posit that is does not, and for the character (not the class) I'd just handwave it.
I believe the minimums to multi-class are an attempt to limit abusive dips. For instance it means if you want to dip Warlock for Devil's sight and Hex on you Rogue you must at least invest some in your Charisma. Or if your Druid of the Moon is going to enrage they better have at least some strength if their going to claim to be a barbarian. You can't say well I'm only really a barbarian when I'm a bear. Well you can't drop the class when your in your frail elf form so you'd better be a barbarian in that form too.
Now, I don't pretend to know the mind of the designers when they crafted the Ability Mins. for Multiclassing. It could just be that they thought "Fighter-Barbarian-Ranger-Paladin rely mainly on STR so group them there." and never considered a DEX Pally. Whatever. Outside of AL does it really matter? I posit that is does not, and for the character (not the class) I'd just handwave it.
Ah, I see. I never attempted to Smite with any thing other than my PCs melee weapons so I kinda glazed over the description stating flatly that Smite only works with melee weapon attacks.
OTOH, the Archetype Heavy Armor/Melee Combatant is what I was referring to. I just think that for a one character exception in a game, a DEX based Pally could in theory swap out his STR prereq for DEX when considering Multiclassing without upsetting the apple cart. That said, I still think that Die Rolling Abilities is where you want to go here. That way you have enough good stats for STR AND DEX as well as the other STATs you need for a stellar Pally.
I believe the minimums to multi-class are an attempt to limit abusive dips. For instance it means if you want to dip Warlock for Devil's sight and Hex on you Rogue you must at least invest some in your Charisma. Or if your Druid of the Moon is going to enrage they better have at least some strength if their going to claim to be a barbarian. You can't say well I'm only really a barbarian when I'm a bear. Well you can't drop the class when your in your frail elf form so you'd better be a barbarian in that form too.
You are absolutely correct. Couldn't say it better.
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As a dedicated Paladin player, who often browses games via Roll20 and DnDBeyond posts for games to join, I have noticed a severe lack of Paladin players in groups. Granted D&D is all about self choice, but it begs the queation,
"What makes the Paladin so undesirable?"
Unearthed Arcana attempted to change the Paladin, but there has not been an increase in choice, and the changes were not as "empowering" as some others. The Ranger, for example, was almost a complete over haul.
Its all opinion based here, looking forward to the fruitful discussions!
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Most players make character choices based on who they want their character to be, not which options are stronger or weaker.
The Paladin class is solid mechanically. It's just not as popular as other character archetypes.
Also keep in mind that the revised Ranger isn't official or final. The only reason the Ranger class got as much of an overhaul as it did is because many players weren't satisfied with the class (mostly with the Beast Master subclass.)
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I'm not necessarily sure about playing Paladin. I typically like to play characters that are chaotic-neutral and don't really have any ties to fiends (Warlock) or celestial beings (Paladin & Cleric). My reason for not choosing Paladin is not only because of that but also because if I was planning on making a melee class I would just do melee and the same if I was to be a spell caster. I'm not planning on doing both at the same time...
I like the Paladin, but the minimum requirement for Str 13 kills a lot of what I want to achieve in a multiclass.
I once had a Vengence Paladin with the Criminal Background (think Antihero), and I realized later on that I really wished I had a 1st lvl in Rogue for more skills, and the rest of it Paladin until around 7th when I'd take more Rogue.
The requirement to dump 5 of the my Point Buy Points into a stat I don't really care much about gimps what I'm trying to achieve.
The designers never designed Paladins to be dex based with light armor and Stealth. So having your Oath of the Ancients look like a Paladin that could have been a Ranger in a lot of ways just never builds.
I love the new Paladin and the fact that they have Oaths instead of necessarily following a God is great.
I think the problem with the Paladin's popularity is that it is sort of a middle-class between Fighter and Cleric and people, especially newer players, who are trying to round out a party tend to aim for the four core classes first (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, and Cleric), which leaves the Paladin in an odd place. Fighters are pretty simple and can grow in complexity with the player's wishes. Clerics are usually the first suggestion when someone wants to play a healer. Unlike Paladin, Sorcerers and Warlocks are just seen as variations on the theme of "spell caster" that Wizard occupies, so it's more likely that the spellcaster of the group will be a non-core class than the others. Rogue is usually the core class most often replaced by a non-core class as 5th Ed makes it really easy for anyone who takes a Background that give proficiency in Thieves Tools to fill that roll as well as their own.
Anyway, like I said, I don't think enough parties think of Paladin as a good fit right off the bat and that decreases their usage dramatically.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I love the Paladin, and I even have one in my game right now. LG, Oath of the Crown, Full Plate, Sword and Board Badassery and all. I even enjoy playing up the knight in shining armor demon vanquisher part. A LOT! I pretty much save his spell slots for smites, and have eyed once or twice a 3 level deep dip into Fighter for Champion (never did it as the options in Pally are so tasty), but on the whole I am very happy with the way the character turned out.
FullMetalBunny is however on the nose addressing one of the construction issues with Pallys. They "need" so many stats. I looked and I did not see a 13 STR minimum listed, but well INT is likely the only stat you don't really need. STR (Hit and Damage for the most part), DEX (Init and Ranged Hit and Damage), CON (Obvious reasons), WIS (Saving Throws), CHA (All of your Special Abilities like AURAs). Now, I *loathe* point buy, but I see why some DMs require it. I *loathe* standard array for the same reason. I do not think the designers are saying you shouldn't build a lightly armored skirmisher Pally, but if you are planning on Multiclassing, you need to roll for your character's stats.
1d8 vs 2d6 is a pretty big difference, especially when you start getting extra attacks or if you roll a crit on attack.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Two problems with Paladins. One is the old problem. Paladins get the stigma of religious zealots. So close to the very thing they hate. Blinded by their convictions. Now you don't have to play a paladin this way particularly in 5e. In 3.5 you lost your abilities if you didn't maintain your lawful good alignment. So though the restriction is lost the stigma remains. Some people want to play an over the top religious zealot, but most people don't.
The second is mechanical. Most classes are more versatile and creative. Problems, choices. Players want to make a unique and interesting build, but the Paladin is structured in a way that limits the players creativity mechanically, or at least has creative hurdles.
I play a paladin/warlock that will eventually be a Paladin/Warlock/Sorcerer/something. He has 13 Str only to allow multiclassing, 14 Dec for effective use of medium armor and to supplement his Stealth proficiency, and 16 Cha to start. I took Hexblade Warlock at level-2 so I could use Cha to attack. (I'd initially started with the plan to take The Seeker from UA and get Charisma to attack with Pact of the Tome and Shillelagh. Then Xanathar's came out.)
As a character he's searching the world for the knowledge and experience to defend his humble village (and the world) from ruin. At home there was only the church, there was only piety. But traveling he is able to broaden his horizons. But most paladin's don't broaden their horizons and so are stuck with their zealous reputation.
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Currently playing a winged Tiefling Oath of Vengeance Paladin in ToA - my first Paladin (we're only level 3 - so perhaps that's why) and I must say I am fairly unimpressed. I only get 3 spell slots - making divine smite mostly worthless (but a paladin skill) compared to actually casting a spell (unless you're fighting undead I guess - I find myself hoarding my spell slots because I have so few of them between rests) there are a few other mechanical bits I either don't know how to use effectively or just aren't working well for my particular instance.
as far as RP goes - it takes a special kind of person to play that kind of religious zealot - a lot of players IMHO would probably rather be liked by their team mates instead of being annoyed by their rigidness (mine is a paladin of Kelemvor - so the undead are hated above all other things - which has caused my character to run off after some zombies that were across the river from us - because they must be destroyed at all costs - instead of just generally leaving them be because they weren't directly going to encounter us - why? because based on his character - he wouldn't just let some undead wander around if he could help it)
He's by far the most against the grain character I've played - where I've had to sit back and think, not what I would do (avoid the zombies in the above case because they were no immediate threat) but what would my character do - based upon the ideals, flaws etc that he has (must kill all undead no matter what the cost because they are an affront to the natural order)
Perhaps he'll come in to his own if I get another level or so - but even as a tank I've found him not being as tanky as other characters I've played can be - some of this I will chalk up to perhaps my inexperience playing the class.
Skameros - Bugbear Barbarian - Out of the Abyss - By Kerrec
Follow your Arrow where it Points - Tabaxi Monk - Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus (by Pokepaladdy)
Citron Pumpkinfoam - Fairy Monk - Project Point: Team Longsword
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Seems to me that if your party doesn't like the paladin - then they are playing them correctly hehe
Perhaps paladin is a misnomer then for the class - since traditionally paladins have always represented Christian valor in the real world and in D&D as a holy knight, crusading in the name of good and order, and is a divine spellcaster and in 5E they aren't (which I suppose is on me for making my assumptions of the class based upon previous incarnations of them within the D&D world - I started back in 1st edition)
So the 'Superman/Captain America/Green Lantern types to anti-hero Batman types' doesn't really fit in with the old holy knight aspect from previous editions
*shrug* you do bring up good points however :)
I am not an experienced Paladin player by any stretch of the imagination so I just have opinions based upon my experiences - which I felt relevant to the OP's question :)
Skameros - Bugbear Barbarian - Out of the Abyss - By Kerrec
Follow your Arrow where it Points - Tabaxi Monk - Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus (by Pokepaladdy)
Citron Pumpkinfoam - Fairy Monk - Project Point: Team Longsword
I blame the lack of new shinies. In my experience, online play tends people wanting to try out new things as they come out, or some other new combinations of things, and the paladins haven't really had anything that stands out in Xanathar. At least, not in a good way. Both Evil characters and pacifist characters have the potential to disrupt the flow of a game, and the Xanathar pally subclasses have high potential to do just that.
I agree with InquisitiveCoder,
The paladin in 5e says nothing abut being a religious zealot. I really like that Paladins are about an ideal, not necessarily even religious. That was one of the best changes they made from 2nd to 5th was the removal of, BDaddLy as says stigma.
I think stigma is a great word for it, because it's something in players minds that's not necessarily present in the game.
I also disagree with the sentiment that Paladin's Smite doesn't get enough charges. Yes, it's only 2 per day at lvl 2 and goes up as a half caster. I've always found myself being conservative with my spell slots as a Paladin, but it's an ability to use wisely not constantly.
To your point about Dex vs Strength Paladins and only losing 1 possible AC. Yes, that's not that big of an issue, but the 13 Strength requirement for Multiclassing means a Paladin has to waste 5 build points JUST so they can mix in other dex based abilities. Also, Paladins can't Two Weapon Fight, without multiclassing.
Those two make it very clear they never anticipated Paladins to be dex based because they didn't build for the option.
Zealotry is not a requirement for being a Paladin. I, in general, think that some players get hung up on this concept as well. I mean just look at the concept of Lawful Stupid vs. Lawful Good. Just because your character is Lawful Good does not mean that he or she is going to do things that are not well thought out. A few posts up a Player mentioned his Pally attacking Zombies in Chult that were *not* menacing the party in any way. Now, yes the Pally was a devotee of Kelemvor (LN God of the Dead in FR IIRC), but given the situation, this character should have been able to reason through the facts and just walk away if only because of the greater issue at hand: the Death Curse! If he and the party die or are diminished by acting "zealously" then the Paladin is *not* fulfilling his oath or God's edicts. YMMV.
As to Smites, well I always have enough because I save them for when I need them. Usually, in battles and only when I crit, that way I maximize their impact. Having anywhere from 2 to 12 smites per day is more than enough for Tier1 to Tier2 Pallys. Also, upon reaching level 10 IIRC, a Pally gets a constant mini smite in 1d8 extra Radiant damage every attack so it is cool.
Now, I don't pretend to know the mind of the designers when they crafted the Ability Mins. for Multiclassing. It could just be that they thought "Fighter-Barbarian-Ranger-Paladin rely mainly on STR so group them there." and never considered a DEX Pally. Whatever. Outside of AL does it really matter? I posit that is does not, and for the character (not the class) I'd just handwave it.
All that being said, the Shining Knight Paladin in Plate is still my favorite Pally.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I believe the minimums to multi-class are an attempt to limit abusive dips. For instance it means if you want to dip Warlock for Devil's sight and Hex on you Rogue you must at least invest some in your Charisma. Or if your Druid of the Moon is going to enrage they better have at least some strength if their going to claim to be a barbarian. You can't say well I'm only really a barbarian when I'm a bear. Well you can't drop the class when your in your frail elf form so you'd better be a barbarian in that form too.
Extended Signature