Im playing a Mountain Dwarf Paladin Oath of Devotion. I used my racial bonus and level 4 ASI to max out my strength at 20. Should I now focus on boosting CHA? At 15 CHA I would be loosing out on a lot of feats to get to 20 CHA. Thoughts?
Is Paladin MAD? Or can I get buy with a CHA of 16 or 17 and take battle feats like Shield Master and Sentinel?
There's no right or wrong answer here. How much do you care about Aura of Protection, Divine Sense and your spell save DC, and how much do you care about Shield Master and Sentinel? Both are valid options and have subjective value based on the playstyle you enjoy, what the rest of your party looks like and what kind of monsters you encounter regularly.
It's weird, but MAD doesn't exist in this edition the way it used to. Every class has a "Primary" stat they use for their character role, and some have a very important secondary skill they typically want high for spell casting or defense. I haven't found many builds that need more than 2 stats that you need to keep leveling.
If you want to go combat focused as a Paladin, you don't need as much CHA, just STR and CON. If you want better saving throws on your spells and to build a more support/buff pally then you might want higher CHA. But many of their spells are going to be used for smites anyway with an offensive focused pally build.
It's weird, but MAD doesn't exist in this edition the way it used to. Every class has a "Primary" stat they use for their character role, and some have a very important secondary skill they typically want high for spell casting or defense. I haven't found many builds that need more than 2 stats that you need to keep leveling.
Monks still kinda suffer from MAD. They're a melee class stuck with a d8 hit die and need both DEX and WIS for both AC and just about every class feature.
A paladin can have 16 STR/10 CON/10 CHA and do OK, but a 16 DEX/10 CON/10 WIS monk is going to get their ass handed to them really quickly and have a lackluster Stunning Strike/Open Hand Technique/Elemental Disciplines.
That's not to say it's a bad class, but they really can't afford to neglect their ability scores the way other classes can. And if they want to grapple things on top of that they better get some gauntlets of ogre power or something.
I agree that the Monk is very MAD. I multiclassed to Druid which exaggerated the need for both dex and wisdom even further.
A “fightin’ and smiting” pally can get away with a lower Cha. Just thinking the character might be more useful if I spent a little ASI on Cha. I’m thinking shield master, sentinel, Cha +2 and Inspiring leader. That would get me to 18 Cha eventually.
I agree that the Monk is very MAD. I multiclassed to Druid which exaggerated the need for both dex and wisdom even further.
A “fightin’ and smiting” pally can get away with a lower Cha. Just thinking the character might be more useful if I spent a little ASI on Cha. I’m thinking shield master, sentinel, Cha +2 and Inspiring leader. That would get me to 18 Cha eventually.
Druids can actually be played with 0 "primary" stats if you want. They can be a buff/control type that doesn't really use saving throws for any of their effects, and wildshapes to do combat. Don't need anything above a 10.
As for monks: I get what you guys are saying, but I've never felt a 2 stat character should be called "MAD". You can play a serviceable monk with a 14+ Wis and a 14+ Dex. Considering the standard array would likely give you both of those (if not better) I think you'd be fine. If you rolled stats and you don't have 2 stats giving you more than +2, I think that's just a bad stat set, not that the class requires a heave stat investment.
As for monks: I get what you guys are saying, but I've never felt a 2 stat character should be called "MAD". You can play a serviceable monk with a 14+ Wis and a 14+ Dex. Considering the standard array would likely give you both of those (if not better) I think you'd be fine.
Which is why I said they "kinda" suffer from MAD. You have the AC and HP of a Rogue but you're trapped in melee range without Cunning Action or Uncanny Dodge. In practice it's a 3 ability class since they're going to get beat up and can't neglect CON. Meanwhile Fighters, Rangers, Paladins and Barbarians all start with higher AC and HP without being significantly behind in damage.
I'd argue a 1 level dip in druid arguably makes Monks less MAD since you can just take WIS to 20 first and it'll count towards your Attack action damage with Shillelagh, while also making your Stunning Strikes more effective. You do lose a bit of damage on your bonus action attacks due to lower DEX, but I'd expect the additional Stunning Strike reliability makes up for it.
@InquisitiveCoder: We seem to be on the same page. The post I was replying to directly was calling Monks " very MAD", which I don't entirely agree with. I assume most people are using a standard array/point buy if you're theory crafting/rating classes since that seems to be how the designers balanced them. With that in mind, you can put the 3 highest scores in Dex, Wis, Con for a monk and be just find to play with. I've never played a druid, but play in a group with one and she seems to be doing fine with a standard array tiefling build. She probably gets hit more than she should, but she can also bounce in and out of combat pretty well which seems to be what monks do best.
Without pulling this more off topic, the main point of my first post was that Pallys aren't MAD, and if you want you can basically ignore CHA past like +1/+2 if you really want to focus on a more offensive style character.
16 Cha is perfectly doable, I'd also recommend resilient (Con) if you can make that work with your stat array. I tend to favor pumping my Cha first as there are items you can find that will boost your Str without spending the ASI.
Im playing a Mountain Dwarf Paladin Oath of Devotion. I used my racial bonus and level 4 ASI to max out my strength at 20. Should I now focus on boosting CHA? At 15 CHA I would be loosing out on a lot of feats to get to 20 CHA. Thoughts?
Is Paladin MAD? Or can I get buy with a CHA of 16 or 17 and take battle feats like Shield Master and Sentinel?
What's your Con score? I don't think I've seen it mentioned. If I'm playing a front-line melee type I like to have a Con of at least 16, more if I'm the primary tank. You probably don't need to worry about maxing your Charisma, I'd get it to 16 and leave it there. But if you find yourself casting a lot of spells that use your spell DC or spell attack bonus, going to 18 is probably not a bad idea.
MAD is a subjective thing, since it depends on how you want to build your character. But I think it's safe to say that among all the classes, Paladins are probably more MAD than most.
My Con is currently at 15. Shield Master fits my characters fighting style...after that I’m not sure...level 7 now. I also like inspiring leader...it kinda fits my character who is prone to storytelling and singing during battle..
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Im playing a Mountain Dwarf Paladin Oath of Devotion. I used my racial bonus and level 4 ASI to max out my strength at 20. Should I now focus on boosting CHA? At 15 CHA I would be loosing out on a lot of feats to get to 20 CHA. Thoughts?
Is Paladin MAD? Or can I get buy with a CHA of 16 or 17 and take battle feats like Shield Master and Sentinel?
There's no right or wrong answer here. How much do you care about Aura of Protection, Divine Sense and your spell save DC, and how much do you care about Shield Master and Sentinel? Both are valid options and have subjective value based on the playstyle you enjoy, what the rest of your party looks like and what kind of monsters you encounter regularly.
It's weird, but MAD doesn't exist in this edition the way it used to. Every class has a "Primary" stat they use for their character role, and some have a very important secondary skill they typically want high for spell casting or defense. I haven't found many builds that need more than 2 stats that you need to keep leveling.
If you want to go combat focused as a Paladin, you don't need as much CHA, just STR and CON. If you want better saving throws on your spells and to build a more support/buff pally then you might want higher CHA. But many of their spells are going to be used for smites anyway with an offensive focused pally build.
Monks still kinda suffer from MAD. They're a melee class stuck with a d8 hit die and need both DEX and WIS for both AC and just about every class feature.
A paladin can have 16 STR/10 CON/10 CHA and do OK, but a 16 DEX/10 CON/10 WIS monk is going to get their ass handed to them really quickly and have a lackluster Stunning Strike/Open Hand Technique/Elemental Disciplines.
That's not to say it's a bad class, but they really can't afford to neglect their ability scores the way other classes can. And if they want to grapple things on top of that they better get some gauntlets of ogre power or something.
I agree that the Monk is very MAD. I multiclassed to Druid which exaggerated the need for both dex and wisdom even further.
A “fightin’ and smiting” pally can get away with a lower Cha. Just thinking the character might be more useful if I spent a little ASI on Cha. I’m thinking shield master, sentinel, Cha +2 and Inspiring leader. That would get me to 18 Cha eventually.
As for monks: I get what you guys are saying, but I've never felt a 2 stat character should be called "MAD". You can play a serviceable monk with a 14+ Wis and a 14+ Dex. Considering the standard array would likely give you both of those (if not better) I think you'd be fine. If you rolled stats and you don't have 2 stats giving you more than +2, I think that's just a bad stat set, not that the class requires a heave stat investment.
@InquisitiveCoder: We seem to be on the same page. The post I was replying to directly was calling Monks " very MAD", which I don't entirely agree with. I assume most people are using a standard array/point buy if you're theory crafting/rating classes since that seems to be how the designers balanced them. With that in mind, you can put the 3 highest scores in Dex, Wis, Con for a monk and be just find to play with. I've never played a druid, but play in a group with one and she seems to be doing fine with a standard array tiefling build. She probably gets hit more than she should, but she can also bounce in and out of combat pretty well which seems to be what monks do best.
Without pulling this more off topic, the main point of my first post was that Pallys aren't MAD, and if you want you can basically ignore CHA past like +1/+2 if you really want to focus on a more offensive style character.
16 Cha is perfectly doable, I'd also recommend resilient (Con) if you can make that work with your stat array. I tend to favor pumping my Cha first as there are items you can find that will boost your Str without spending the ASI.
What's your Con score? I don't think I've seen it mentioned. If I'm playing a front-line melee type I like to have a Con of at least 16, more if I'm the primary tank. You probably don't need to worry about maxing your Charisma, I'd get it to 16 and leave it there. But if you find yourself casting a lot of spells that use your spell DC or spell attack bonus, going to 18 is probably not a bad idea.
MAD is a subjective thing, since it depends on how you want to build your character. But I think it's safe to say that among all the classes, Paladins are probably more MAD than most.
My Con is currently at 15. Shield Master fits my characters fighting style...after that I’m not sure...level 7 now. I also like inspiring leader...it kinda fits my character who is prone to storytelling and singing during battle..