I'm a new player and I'm wanting to play a Chaotic Neutral Fallen Aasimar Paladin but I don't know if I should go with the Vengeance Oath or the Conquest Oath.
I feel like it depends upon what your priority is for your character. Are you looking for best damage output, role playing potential or what simply fits your alignment best?
I see. Well each has a different answer in my opinion. But in that order I personally believe the following.
Damage output: I guess you could make a case for either of them, personally I believe Vengeance has an edge due to attack capacity and utility especially with certain abilities you get early on like misty step and and hunter's mark. Conquest is solid, but its more of a crowd control option with abilities like command and fear, rather than raw damage output. Vengeance is more focused on dealing damage to a specific foe/target where as Conquest is more focused on controlling an area and setting up damage. The +2 CHA and +1 STR you get with the fallen aasimar are great for both.
RP potential: Both I believe are the same in terms of role playing in terms of flavor and fun thematic options. However, one might make more sense than the other due to your alignment selection (See below) and due to the fact that your a fallen aasimar. Also what the backstory and key motivations are can play a huge part in which oath you decide to take as a Paladin. Keep in mind you are fallen aasimar - "An aasimar who was touched by dark powers as a youth or who turns to evil in early adulthood can become one of the fallen-a group of aasimar whose inner light has been replaced by shadow" so you will have to have a reason why your character is neutral rather than evil.
Alignment: Take this with a fat grain of salt because alignment can become somewhat subjective and a rabbit hole that can paralyze or pin a player into corner for an entire adventure. With that said, if we are giving alignment a good amount of weight than I believe Conquest might make a tad more sense. Chaotic Neutral characters do not believe in order or societal structure (chaotic) and have a sense of morality being purely subjective (neutral), so they chose what they want to do when they want it. Freedom is the most important thing to them and they will not be ruled or told what to do or how to behave (that does not make them evil, just opposite of Lawful). The neutral side of them indulge on what life offers rather than choosing something because of where it may sit on the moral spectrum. So Chaotic could flavor best with conquest (conquer before I am conquered and my freedom taken from me) and Neutral could best flavor Vengeance (I do not care that this new sworn enemy killed my friend/family member because my friend/broke the law or did something inherently evil, I'm going to get my revenge!) You can also flip this logic backwards and for those same reasons make a case for the opposite (I am taking revenge on this demon or the faction because of the oppression they have placed upon others) or (I am going to conquer this city or this guild because they use "the law" as an excuse to dominate others and myself) but that goes back to RP potential and what your back story is going to be, as that helps you determine you motivation for future actions. A really good example for a chaotic neutral knight could be Bron from GOT (indulgence and money are his drivers, he does bad and good things but those do not motivate him) or even William Wallace from Braveheart (Freedom was the absolute sole motivator for him to do what needed to be done, both bad and good). A good in depth analysis on chaotic neutral characters is in the link below. http://easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html
At the end of the day chaotic neutral is the most freed up and truly unpredictable alignment and either of these subclasses would work for it. Both are great offensive options with different focuses and both are a blast to play. Hope this helps!
Beautifully said, i will mention that being touched by dark power doesn't make one evil. fallen aasimar are either touch by dark powers or evil. a good background for one touched by dark powers could be haunted one and that can easily justify being a vengeance paladin ( even conquest if you can strech the origin of what hunts you).
@SirGrantFoxwood & Saltyseaslug thank you so much for the feedback!
Grant, I love GoT!!! And if I may add an example of my own, I would argue that Arya Stark is an example of a Chaotic Neutral (more heavy on the Neutral) Vengeance Paladin (Dex over Str) of Death.
Beautifully said, i will mention that being touched by dark power doesn't make one evil. fallen aasimar are either touch by dark powers or evil. a good background for one touched by dark powers could be haunted one and that can easily justify being a vengeance paladin ( even conquest if you can strech the origin of what hunts you).
Ah very true! It does not automatically make one evil. It could be touched by dark powers or you are evil. But there may need to be some explanation on why/how the dark powers didn't over take you as there is a symmetry between the two forces of moral alignment and "dark" power. Again take that with a fat grain of salt because this is easily explainable and one could argue not necessary.
@SirGrantFoxwood & Saltyseaslug thank you so much for the feedback!
Grant, I love GoT!!! And if I may add an example of my own, I would argue that Arya Stark is an example of a Chaotic Neutral (more heavy on the Neutral) Vengeance Paladin (Dex over Str) of Death.
She is a great example! I feel like she is somewhere between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Good, but it may appear to be good because she is simply with the "good guys"
Ah very true! It does not automatically make one evil. It could be touched by dark powers or you are evil. But there may need to be some explanation on why/how the dark powers didn't over take you as there is a symmetry between the two forces of moral alignment and "dark" power. Again take that with a fat grain of salt because this is easily explainable and one could argue not necessary.
The way i personally see it is that dark power is just really "a" kind of "power" and doesnt necessarily have to be wielder buy evil doers. eveil doers tends to use dark powers more either because it's more fear inducing ( not being pretty, shiny and sparkly as opposed to say divine or maybe arcane power if that make sense) or because for some kind of prejudice they have not been able to access a different kind of power (im talking about accidental bad guys, kinda like how tieflings due to being constantly shunned by society tends to fall into evil alignment or following the "wrong" path). there may be more reason i just can't think of on top of my head but the iead is simply that, power is power, how you wield it is what matters.
A fallen aasimar touched by dark power doesn't mean he needs a reason to not be evil, but you could argue that because of the percieved "ugliness" of dark power they may suffer from prejudice and that move them away from being lawful and good to maybe more chaotic and neutral. there are not bad or evil but there is only so much one can take before they change but that change doesnt have to be 180.
think of it as, most aasimar are considered touched by the divine, one touched by dark power could be shunned by his society, mocked and picked on by children but still he understand that there is greater evil in this world, maybe because say his parents that were not fallen aasimar were fought demons or devils, or a necromancer while the mother was pregnant with him. his father died or not, but the dark power left an imprint on his still in the womb soul. he grew up with the loved and teaching of his parent even when the rest of aasimar and the rest of the world see him as a freak.
Or simply he came into contact with his dark power by other means, a demon trying to corrupt a young aasimar before his divine power fully manifest, he is rescued, protected and raised by a figure that was good and tought him well even when everyone else seems to be scare of his power.
But in the end power is just power, dark or not and i wouldnt try to put too much weight on it to determine one's alignment. devils and demons might be evil for us but maybe for them they are just normal lol, it's just their nature. and if people are going to treat them as aberration they might as well embrace it and wield the most ugly and fearful power kinda thing.
Sorry for the long post, i just let my imagination run. but now i feel like playing a character that would be good but wield very "dark" power. gonna have to make a good concept of that for my next campaign.
Ah very true! It does not automatically make one evil. It could be touched by dark powers or you are evil. But there may need to be some explanation on why/how the dark powers didn't over take you as there is a symmetry between the two forces of moral alignment and "dark" power. Again take that with a fat grain of salt because this is easily explainable and one could argue not necessary.
The way i personally see it is that dark power is just really "a" kind of "power" and doesnt necessarily have to be wielder buy evil doers. eveil doers tends to use dark powers more either because it's more fear inducing ( not being pretty, shiny and sparkly as opposed to say divine or maybe arcane power if that make sense) or because for some kind of prejudice they have not been able to access a different kind of power (im talking about accidental bad guys, kinda like how tieflings due to being constantly shunned by society tends to fall into evil alignment or following the "wrong" path). there may be more reason i just can't think of on top of my head but the iead is simply that, power is power, how you wield it is what matters.
A fallen aasimar touched by dark power doesn't mean he needs a reason to not be evil, but you could argue that because of the percieved "ugliness" of dark power they may suffer from prejudice and that move them away from being lawful and good to maybe more chaotic and neutral. there are not bad or evil but there is only so much one can take before they change but that change doesnt have to be 180.
think of it as, most aasimar are considered touched by the divine, one touched by dark power could be shunned by his society, mocked and picked on by children but still he understand that there is greater evil in this world, maybe because say his parents that were not fallen aasimar were fought demons or devils, or a necromancer while the mother was pregnant with him. his father died or not, but the dark power left an imprint on his still in the womb soul. he grew up with the loved and teaching of his parent even when the rest of aasimar and the rest of the world see him as a freak.
Or simply he came into contact with his dark power by other means, a demon trying to corrupt a young aasimar before his divine power fully manifest, he is rescued, protected and raised by a figure that was good and tought him well even when everyone else seems to be scare of his power.
But in the end power is just power, dark or not and i wouldnt try to put too much weight on it to determine one's alignment. devils and demons might be evil for us but maybe for them they are just normal lol, it's just their nature. and if people are going to treat them as aberration they might as well embrace it and wield the most ugly and fearful power kinda thing.
Sorry for the long post, i just let my imagination run. but now i feel like playing a character that would be good but wield very "dark" power. gonna have to make a good concept of that for my next campaign.
Well said! And I agree! Like I said I don't think alignment should pin a player in a 1 dimensional role, but if we give it weight there will always be certain questions (that are not entirely necessary) player may need to ask himself.
Vengeance Paladins usually have had some great evil or atrocity beset upon them, and so they are resolved to have revenge upon the party involved, and against any who try to do the same.
While they have little qualms about HOW they do this, they are still somewhat law abiding, at least as far as "good" laws are concerned.
Conquest Paladins can be like that...except they are fed up with "laws" in general. After all, if the laws were effective, how is it that evil still exists? And so they take it upon THEMSELVES to enforce their view of how the world should be...using overwhelming force. To them, might makes right, and only by "conquering" the world can they hope to fulfill their vision of a "perfect" world.
Obviously, this can lead to a paladin becoming very dangerous, possibly a villain in their own right, because they are willing to commit terrible acts for their own gain...but they would say that their gain means a better world.
That said, you can have a "good" Conquest Paladin...just have them state that the weak must be made stronger, if they hope to triumph over evil. Usually, this means tough love and teaching folk to fight for themselves. "Mercy" is also a word they don't have in their vocabulary...if someone steps out of line, they obliterate them.
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I'm a new player and I'm wanting to play a Chaotic Neutral Fallen Aasimar Paladin but I don't know if I should go with the Vengeance Oath or the Conquest Oath.
I feel like it depends upon what your priority is for your character. Are you looking for best damage output, role playing potential or what simply fits your alignment best?
All of the above and in that order truly.
I see. Well each has a different answer in my opinion. But in that order I personally believe the following.
Damage output: I guess you could make a case for either of them, personally I believe Vengeance has an edge due to attack capacity and utility especially with certain abilities you get early on like misty step and and hunter's mark. Conquest is solid, but its more of a crowd control option with abilities like command and fear, rather than raw damage output. Vengeance is more focused on dealing damage to a specific foe/target where as Conquest is more focused on controlling an area and setting up damage. The +2 CHA and +1 STR you get with the fallen aasimar are great for both.
RP potential: Both I believe are the same in terms of role playing in terms of flavor and fun thematic options. However, one might make more sense than the other due to your alignment selection (See below) and due to the fact that your a fallen aasimar. Also what the backstory and key motivations are can play a huge part in which oath you decide to take as a Paladin. Keep in mind you are fallen aasimar -
"An aasimar who was touched by dark powers as a youth or who turns to evil in early adulthood can become one of the fallen-a group of aasimar whose inner light has been replaced by shadow" so you will have to have a reason why your character is neutral rather than evil.
Alignment: Take this with a fat grain of salt because alignment can become somewhat subjective and a rabbit hole that can paralyze or pin a player into corner for an entire adventure. With that said, if we are giving alignment a good amount of weight than I believe Conquest might make a tad more sense. Chaotic Neutral characters do not believe in order or societal structure (chaotic) and have a sense of morality being purely subjective (neutral), so they chose what they want to do when they want it. Freedom is the most important thing to them and they will not be ruled or told what to do or how to behave (that does not make them evil, just opposite of Lawful). The neutral side of them indulge on what life offers rather than choosing something because of where it may sit on the moral spectrum. So Chaotic could flavor best with conquest (conquer before I am conquered and my freedom taken from me) and Neutral could best flavor Vengeance (I do not care that this new sworn enemy killed my friend/family member because my friend/broke the law or did something inherently evil, I'm going to get my revenge!) You can also flip this logic backwards and for those same reasons make a case for the opposite (I am taking revenge on this demon or the faction because of the oppression they have placed upon others) or (I am going to conquer this city or this guild because they use "the law" as an excuse to dominate others and myself) but that goes back to RP potential and what your back story is going to be, as that helps you determine you motivation for future actions. A really good example for a chaotic neutral knight could be Bron from GOT (indulgence and money are his drivers, he does bad and good things but those do not motivate him) or even William Wallace from Braveheart (Freedom was the absolute sole motivator for him to do what needed to be done, both bad and good). A good in depth analysis on chaotic neutral characters is in the link below.
http://easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html
At the end of the day chaotic neutral is the most freed up and truly unpredictable alignment and either of these subclasses would work for it. Both are great offensive options with different focuses and both are a blast to play. Hope this helps!
Beautifully said, i will mention that being touched by dark power doesn't make one evil. fallen aasimar are either touch by dark powers or evil. a good background for one touched by dark powers could be haunted one and that can easily justify being a vengeance paladin ( even conquest if you can strech the origin of what hunts you).
@SirGrantFoxwood & Saltyseaslug thank you so much for the feedback!
Grant, I love GoT!!! And if I may add an example of my own, I would argue that Arya Stark is an example of a Chaotic Neutral (more heavy on the Neutral) Vengeance Paladin (Dex over Str) of Death.
Ah very true! It does not automatically make one evil. It could be touched by dark powers or you are evil. But there may need to be some explanation on why/how the dark powers didn't over take you as there is a symmetry between the two forces of moral alignment and "dark" power. Again take that with a fat grain of salt because this is easily explainable and one could argue not necessary.
She is a great example! I feel like she is somewhere between Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Good, but it may appear to be good because she is simply with the "good guys"
Would either Oath work pretty well if I decide to Multi-Class into at least one level of Hexblade?
The way i personally see it is that dark power is just really "a" kind of "power" and doesnt necessarily have to be wielder buy evil doers. eveil doers tends to use dark powers more either because it's more fear inducing ( not being pretty, shiny and sparkly as opposed to say divine or maybe arcane power if that make sense) or because for some kind of prejudice they have not been able to access a different kind of power (im talking about accidental bad guys, kinda like how tieflings due to being constantly shunned by society tends to fall into evil alignment or following the "wrong" path). there may be more reason i just can't think of on top of my head but the iead is simply that, power is power, how you wield it is what matters.
A fallen aasimar touched by dark power doesn't mean he needs a reason to not be evil, but you could argue that because of the percieved "ugliness" of dark power they may suffer from prejudice and that move them away from being lawful and good to maybe more chaotic and neutral. there are not bad or evil but there is only so much one can take before they change but that change doesnt have to be 180.
think of it as, most aasimar are considered touched by the divine, one touched by dark power could be shunned by his society, mocked and picked on by children but still he understand that there is greater evil in this world, maybe because say his parents that were not fallen aasimar were fought demons or devils, or a necromancer while the mother was pregnant with him. his father died or not, but the dark power left an imprint on his still in the womb soul. he grew up with the loved and teaching of his parent even when the rest of aasimar and the rest of the world see him as a freak.
Or simply he came into contact with his dark power by other means, a demon trying to corrupt a young aasimar before his divine power fully manifest, he is rescued, protected and raised by a figure that was good and tought him well even when everyone else seems to be scare of his power.
But in the end power is just power, dark or not and i wouldnt try to put too much weight on it to determine one's alignment. devils and demons might be evil for us but maybe for them they are just normal lol, it's just their nature. and if people are going to treat them as aberration they might as well embrace it and wield the most ugly and fearful power kinda thing.
Sorry for the long post, i just let my imagination run. but now i feel like playing a character that would be good but wield very "dark" power. gonna have to make a good concept of that for my next campaign.
Totally. I'd still give the edge to Vengeance damage wise but Conquest would work well.
Well said! And I agree! Like I said I don't think alignment should pin a player in a 1 dimensional role, but if we give it weight there will always be certain questions (that are not entirely necessary) player may need to ask himself.
moved this to forum thread
Vengeance Paladins usually have had some great evil or atrocity beset upon them, and so they are resolved to have revenge upon the party involved, and against any who try to do the same.
While they have little qualms about HOW they do this, they are still somewhat law abiding, at least as far as "good" laws are concerned.
Conquest Paladins can be like that...except they are fed up with "laws" in general. After all, if the laws were effective, how is it that evil still exists? And so they take it upon THEMSELVES to enforce their view of how the world should be...using overwhelming force. To them, might makes right, and only by "conquering" the world can they hope to fulfill their vision of a "perfect" world.
Obviously, this can lead to a paladin becoming very dangerous, possibly a villain in their own right, because they are willing to commit terrible acts for their own gain...but they would say that their gain means a better world.
That said, you can have a "good" Conquest Paladin...just have them state that the weak must be made stronger, if they hope to triumph over evil. Usually, this means tough love and teaching folk to fight for themselves. "Mercy" is also a word they don't have in their vocabulary...if someone steps out of line, they obliterate them.