Wrathful smite is definitely the exception to the rule when it comes to smite spells generally not being great. It's a first level spell, so it's not competing with too much, and it's incredibly difficult to escape from its debilitating status effect if the target fails the initial save. It still suffers from being a single target spell that doesn't really do anything if that individual target passes a save. Paladins don't have many spell slots, so it feelsbadman.jpg when you spend one of your few spell slots and nothing really happens. But Wrathful Smite's effect is big enough (especially for a conqueror) and hard enough to escape that it's worth the risk.
As for warcaster... if you're casting concentration spells regularly (something that a paladin probably should do to be optimized, but doesn't have to do to be competent), then yeah, you'll probably want something to shore up those saves. Doesn't have to be warcaster, it could be resilient con, or a first level fighter dip, or a two level warlock dip with the invocation that grants advantage on concentration saves, or even just the lucky feat in a pinch. But something, certainly.
Wrathful Smite competes with Bless for concentration and 9 times out of 10 Bless will be better.
The problem with bless is that we're ultimately talking about a DPR boost, and more importantly, a 12.5% DPR increase for those who get it. We have to account for the very fact that we've given up our action to bless, and this means we did not attack. We also have to account for the fact that we used a spell slot! this is important because it means we could have used smite instead.
suppose you're a greatsword paladin with the great weapon fighting style. at lvl 3, you could be doing an average of ~6 DPR, and with a smite, that's 15 damage that is being sacrificed in order to use bless. If you bless a quarterstaff fighter with dueling and PAM, that guy does 9.6 DPR. A crossbow expert with archery fighting style does about 9.1, and if we were to bless both of those guys and ourselves too, we'd be seeing an increase of 3 dpr thanks to bless. But we established that we sacrificed 15 in doing so. So, for bless to be worth it in this scenario, we'd have to last longer than 5 rounds. Mind you, this is considering that we blessed two min-maxed players.
So, in tier 1 we can safely say that Bless isn't worth it. This conclusion obviously changes once you factor in things like extra attack and GWM/SS. If we blessed three SS/CBE with archery and extra attack, say at lvl 5, then we're seeing an increase of 18 DPR. Still, since we have to account we lost out on about 23 damage using our action and slot, the damage increase from bless is more like 10-12 DPR depending if the fight lasts about 3 or 4 rounds like they do on average. But tell me, are you blessing three min-maxed players every time you bless? No? Then you're getting less from it.
Wrathful smite, on the other hand, is very very very useful in the right circumstances. Suppose you're fighting three ogres. Those guys have poor wisdom saves, so it's a pretty likely thing that you can get one of them to fall victim to wrathful smite. For all intents and purposes, you've effectively shut down that ogre for the whole encounter because they can't get closer and they use their ACTION to make their CHECK at disadvantage. You took the encounter down from three tough dudes, to two. What was originally meant to be a difficult challenge now is a walk in the park. This applies to trolls, zombie ogres, hill giants, etc. The list goes on.
Ultimately, wrathful smite is about battlefield control, and in a lot of situations, that's way more important than a 12.5% increase to a few dudes.
The main problem I have with this argument is I was comparing Bless to Wrathful Smite but then you somehow turned it into Bless vs Divine Smite. You also fully ignore the other half of the Bless spell which is a bonus to saving throws.
You also question whether or not you would Bless the same players over and over. In every game I've played where I have had access to Bless I will ALWAYS Bless the 3 same players because they can get maximum usage out of the spell. Heck I also make it a point to tell my teammates to try and stay in my Bless range for the first round if possible for that very purpose. While I respect that you may have a different playstyle and Bless randomly I think you'll find more often than not the same targets will get Blessed.
The final flaw I find in your argument is you automatically accept that the attack you gave up to cast Bless would automatically hit to allow you to Divine Smite. This has not factored in that the attack could miss which results in zero damage but conserves the spell slot.
And lastly I never said smite spells had zero use, in the right circumstances I could very well use one in place of Bless. My initial argument which I stand by is Bless is more useful in many more situations than a smite spell and since they both require concentration Bless would win out more often than not.
The main problem I have with this argument is I was comparing Bless to Wrathful Smite but then you somehow turned it into Bless vs Divine Smite. You also fully ignore the other half of the Bless spell which is a bonus to saving throws.
You also question whether or not you would Bless the same players over and over. In every game I've played where I have had access to Bless I will ALWAYS Bless the 3 same players because they can get maximum usage out of the spell. Heck I also make it a point to tell my teammates to try and stay in my Bless range for the first round if possible for that very purpose. While I respect that you may have a different playstyle and Bless randomly I think you'll find more often than not the same targets will get Blessed.
The final flaw I find in your argument is you automatically accept that the attack you gave up to cast Bless would automatically hit to allow you to Divine Smite. This has not factored in that the attack could miss which results in zero damage but conserves the spell slot.
And lastly I never said smite spells had zero use, in the right circumstances I could very well use one in place of Bless. My initial argument which I stand by is Bless is more useful in many more situations than a smite spell and since they both require concentration Bless would win out more often than not.
Bless, or any other spell for that matter, must be compared to divine smite because it's such a crucial class feature-- They compete for the same resource. Now, sure, there are fights when we can easily foresee the possibility of numerous saving throws come up, such as those against enemy casters. However, the possibility exists that we can probably burst that caster down more easily with an immediate action + smite. Were I to go up against a ghost in tier 1, for example, I could take a turn to bless myself or I could smite. The ghost has a nasty possession where a buffed saving throw could help, but it's also an undead so my smite would also be more effective against it, and it might be bursted down before it causes much damage.
But let's be frank here, the main reason why we cast bless is not so we can make our saving throws. It's a nice benefit, but it's not the main reason. No, it's because we're trying to increase our DPR. It's all about the DPR! So, the way I sees it, we've got two options that increase DPR that use a spell slot. One uses an action, the other does not. You pointed out that I factored in damage and assumed that the attack would land, I did not. I factored in the average damage per turn, factoring in missing and all. Going back to my example, a greatsword paladin with great fighting style would actually do on average 8.3 from the roll, and 3 from his STR mod. This results in 11.3 damage on average, but after factoring in AC, that goes down to ~6 DPR. If we choose not to attack, we're lowering our average for that round to 0, whether we miss or hit. It sounds strange, but it's true. So, since the average roll of a divine smite is 9, we gave up 15 damage for a 12.5% increase in DPR to others. A cleric probably won't have to weigh the costs of their action, since they're probably not using a greatsword with a fighting style to boost it nor do they have access to a feature that turns their slot into an immediate damage spike as part of an attack. So, while the smite vs bless comparison seems to come out of nowhere, it's a valid comparison and statement to factor in.
So, after going after bless and comparing it to divine smite as an inefficient option, why am I not going after wrathful for doing far less? Because it functions in a similar manner, taking a target out from combat as quickly as possible. In this case, it's just doing so in the form of battlefield control.
Also, I did not ask if you would bless the same targets. I asked if the targets you'd be blessing were min-maxed sufficiently to even make the gains in DPR worth it. If we blessed a warlock that only spams EB+hex+AB, and a dueling sword-n-board fighter that only increases STR sans GWM/PAM, and an archery longbow ranger without SS, well, you'd see an increase of about 8 DPR total in tier 2, assuming they've got 18 in their main stat. But, we could have attacked on our turn and smited instead for an immediate 23 damage. it'll take four turns before it breaks even, and another to surpass. In this case, your spell slot is not worth blessing your team mates for DPR's sake.
Your argument was that 90% of the time, bless is a better option than wrathful smite. My counterpoint is that the situations that make wrathful worth using are far more frequent than 10% of encounters, and to add to my argument, your concentration should not be used on bless as frequently as you believe for it is inefficient in earlier levels, where a good deal of gameplay takes place.
The main problem I have with this argument is I was comparing Bless to Wrathful Smite but then you somehow turned it into Bless vs Divine Smite. You also fully ignore the other half of the Bless spell which is a bonus to saving throws.
You also question whether or not you would Bless the same players over and over. In every game I've played where I have had access to Bless I will ALWAYS Bless the 3 same players because they can get maximum usage out of the spell. Heck I also make it a point to tell my teammates to try and stay in my Bless range for the first round if possible for that very purpose. While I respect that you may have a different playstyle and Bless randomly I think you'll find more often than not the same targets will get Blessed.
The final flaw I find in your argument is you automatically accept that the attack you gave up to cast Bless would automatically hit to allow you to Divine Smite. This has not factored in that the attack could miss which results in zero damage but conserves the spell slot.
And lastly I never said smite spells had zero use, in the right circumstances I could very well use one in place of Bless. My initial argument which I stand by is Bless is more useful in many more situations than a smite spell and since they both require concentration Bless would win out more often than not.
Bless, or any other spell for that matter, must be compared to divine smite because it's such a crucial class feature-- They compete for the same resource. Now, sure, there are fights when we can easily foresee the possibility of numerous saving throws come up, such as those against enemy casters. However, the possibility exists that we can probably burst that caster down more easily with an immediate action + smite. Were I to go up against a ghost in tier 1, for example, I could take a turn to bless myself or I could smite. The ghost has a nasty possession where a buffed saving throw could help, but it's also an undead so my smite would also be more effective against it, and it might be bursted down before it causes much damage.
But let's be frank here, the main reason why we cast bless is not so we can make our saving throws. It's a nice benefit, but it's not the main reason. No, it's because we're trying to increase our DPR. It's all about the DPR! So, the way I sees it, we've got two options that increase DPR that use a spell slot. One uses an action, the other does not. You pointed out that I factored in damage and assumed that the attack would land, I did not. I factored in the average damage per turn, factoring in missing and all. Going back to my example, a greatsword paladin with great fighting style would actually do on average 8.3 from the roll, and 3 from his STR mod. This results in 11.3 damage on average, but after factoring in AC, that goes down to ~6 DPR. If we choose not to attack, we're lowering our average for that round to 0, whether we miss or hit. It sounds strange, but it's true. So, since the average roll of a divine smite is 9, we gave up 15 damage for a 12.5% increase in DPR to others. A cleric probably won't have to weigh the costs of their action, since they're probably not using a greatsword with a fighting style to boost it nor do they have access to a feature that turns their slot into an immediate damage spike as part of an attack. So, while the smite vs bless comparison seems to come out of nowhere, it's a valid comparison and statement to factor in.
So, after going after bless and comparing it to divine smite as an inefficient option, why am I not going after wrathful for doing far less? Because it functions in a similar manner, taking a target out from combat as quickly as possible. In this case, it's just doing so in the form of battlefield control.
Also, I did not ask if you would bless the same targets. I asked if the targets you'd be blessing were min-maxed sufficiently to even make the gains in DPR worth it. If we blessed a warlock that only spams EB+hex+AB, and a dueling sword-n-board fighter that only increases STR sans GWM/PAM, and an archery longbow ranger without SS, well, you'd see an increase of about 8 DPR total in tier 2, assuming they've got 18 in their main stat. But, we could have attacked on our turn and smited instead for an immediate 23 damage. it'll take four turns before it breaks even, and another to surpass. In this case, your spell slot is not worth blessing your team mates for DPR's sake.
Your argument was that 90% of the time, bless is a better option than wrathful smite. My counterpoint is that the situations that make wrathful worth using are far more frequent than 10% of encounters, and to add to my argument, your concentration should not be used on bless as frequently as you believe for it is inefficient in earlier levels, where a good deal of gameplay takes place.
Agreed. 100% of the time, it's better for the cleric to cast Bless on me! Especially, if I have GWM! Then it's better 110% of the time! ;) lol
Bless, or any other spell for that matter, must be compared to divine smite because it's such a crucial class feature-- They compete for the same resource. Now, sure, there are fights when we can easily foresee the possibility of numerous saving throws come up, such as those against enemy casters. However, the possibility exists that we can probably burst that caster down more easily with an immediate action + smite. Were I to go up against a ghost in tier 1, for example, I could take a turn to bless myself or I could smite. The ghost has a nasty possession where a buffed saving throw could help, but it's also an undead so my smite would also be more effective against it, and it might be bursted down before it causes much damage.
But let's be frank here, the main reason why we cast bless is not so we can make our saving throws. It's a nice benefit, but it's not the main reason. No, it's because we're trying to increase our DPR. It's all about the DPR! So, the way I sees it, we've got two options that increase DPR that use a spell slot. One uses an action, the other does not. You pointed out that I factored in damage and assumed that the attack would land, I did not. I factored in the average damage per turn, factoring in missing and all. Going back to my example, a greatsword paladin with great fighting style would actually do on average 8.3 from the roll, and 3 from his STR mod. This results in 11.3 damage on average, but after factoring in AC, that goes down to ~6 DPR. If we choose not to attack, we're lowering our average for that round to 0, whether we miss or hit. It sounds strange, but it's true. So, since the average roll of a divine smite is 9, we gave up 15 damage for a 12.5% increase in DPR to others. A cleric probably won't have to weigh the costs of their action, since they're probably not using a greatsword with a fighting style to boost it nor do they have access to a feature that turns their slot into an immediate damage spike as part of an attack. So, while the smite vs bless comparison seems to come out of nowhere, it's a valid comparison and statement to factor in.
So, after going after bless and comparing it to divine smite as an inefficient option, why am I not going after wrathful for doing far less? Because it functions in a similar manner, taking a target out from combat as quickly as possible. In this case, it's just doing so in the form of battlefield control.
Also, I did not ask if you would bless the same targets. I asked if the targets you'd be blessing were min-maxed sufficiently to even make the gains in DPR worth it. If we blessed a warlock that only spams EB+hex+AB, and a dueling sword-n-board fighter that only increases STR sans GWM/PAM, and an archery longbow ranger without SS, well, you'd see an increase of about 8 DPR total in tier 2, assuming they've got 18 in their main stat. But, we could have attacked on our turn and smited instead for an immediate 23 damage. it'll take four turns before it breaks even, and another to surpass. In this case, your spell slot is not worth blessing your team mates for DPR's sake.
Your argument was that 90% of the time, bless is a better option than wrathful smite. My counterpoint is that the situations that make wrathful worth using are far more frequent than 10% of encounters, and to add to my argument, your concentration should not be used on bless as frequently as you believe for it is inefficient in earlier levels, where a good deal of gameplay takes place.
You may have misinterpreted my initial argument a little bit. I am not arguing starting every battle off with Bless all the time. Nor am I arguing Wrathful Smite is useless. With the lower amount of spell slots available to a Paladin one should always be on the conservative side when using spell slots. My main argument in the initial post was in response to somebody claiming there isn't many spells that compete with Wrathful Smite at 1st level.
Now I admit my of claim of "9 out of 10 times" is probably off but I still stand by my assertion that Bless is a better use of your concentration than Wrathful Smite in more situations than not.
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The main problem I have with this argument is I was comparing Bless to Wrathful Smite but then you somehow turned it into Bless vs Divine Smite. You also fully ignore the other half of the Bless spell which is a bonus to saving throws.
You also question whether or not you would Bless the same players over and over. In every game I've played where I have had access to Bless I will ALWAYS Bless the 3 same players because they can get maximum usage out of the spell. Heck I also make it a point to tell my teammates to try and stay in my Bless range for the first round if possible for that very purpose. While I respect that you may have a different playstyle and Bless randomly I think you'll find more often than not the same targets will get Blessed.
The final flaw I find in your argument is you automatically accept that the attack you gave up to cast Bless would automatically hit to allow you to Divine Smite. This has not factored in that the attack could miss which results in zero damage but conserves the spell slot.
And lastly I never said smite spells had zero use, in the right circumstances I could very well use one in place of Bless. My initial argument which I stand by is Bless is more useful in many more situations than a smite spell and since they both require concentration Bless would win out more often than not.
Bless, or any other spell for that matter, must be compared to divine smite because it's such a crucial class feature-- They compete for the same resource. Now, sure, there are fights when we can easily foresee the possibility of numerous saving throws come up, such as those against enemy casters. However, the possibility exists that we can probably burst that caster down more easily with an immediate action + smite. Were I to go up against a ghost in tier 1, for example, I could take a turn to bless myself or I could smite. The ghost has a nasty possession where a buffed saving throw could help, but it's also an undead so my smite would also be more effective against it, and it might be bursted down before it causes much damage.
But let's be frank here, the main reason why we cast bless is not so we can make our saving throws. It's a nice benefit, but it's not the main reason. No, it's because we're trying to increase our DPR. It's all about the DPR! So, the way I sees it, we've got two options that increase DPR that use a spell slot. One uses an action, the other does not. You pointed out that I factored in damage and assumed that the attack would land, I did not. I factored in the average damage per turn, factoring in missing and all. Going back to my example, a greatsword paladin with great fighting style would actually do on average 8.3 from the roll, and 3 from his STR mod. This results in 11.3 damage on average, but after factoring in AC, that goes down to ~6 DPR. If we choose not to attack, we're lowering our average for that round to 0, whether we miss or hit. It sounds strange, but it's true. So, since the average roll of a divine smite is 9, we gave up 15 damage for a 12.5% increase in DPR to others. A cleric probably won't have to weigh the costs of their action, since they're probably not using a greatsword with a fighting style to boost it nor do they have access to a feature that turns their slot into an immediate damage spike as part of an attack. So, while the smite vs bless comparison seems to come out of nowhere, it's a valid comparison and statement to factor in.
So, after going after bless and comparing it to divine smite as an inefficient option, why am I not going after wrathful for doing far less? Because it functions in a similar manner, taking a target out from combat as quickly as possible. In this case, it's just doing so in the form of battlefield control.
Also, I did not ask if you would bless the same targets. I asked if the targets you'd be blessing were min-maxed sufficiently to even make the gains in DPR worth it. If we blessed a warlock that only spams EB+hex+AB, and a dueling sword-n-board fighter that only increases STR sans GWM/PAM, and an archery longbow ranger without SS, well, you'd see an increase of about 8 DPR total in tier 2, assuming they've got 18 in their main stat. But, we could have attacked on our turn and smited instead for an immediate 23 damage. it'll take four turns before it breaks even, and another to surpass. In this case, your spell slot is not worth blessing your team mates for DPR's sake.
Your argument was that 90% of the time, bless is a better option than wrathful smite. My counterpoint is that the situations that make wrathful worth using are far more frequent than 10% of encounters, and to add to my argument, your concentration should not be used on bless as frequently as you believe for it is inefficient in earlier levels, where a good deal of gameplay takes place.
Agreed. 100% of the time, it's better for the cleric to cast Bless on me! Especially, if I have GWM! Then it's better 110% of the time! ;) lol
You may have misinterpreted my initial argument a little bit. I am not arguing starting every battle off with Bless all the time. Nor am I arguing Wrathful Smite is useless. With the lower amount of spell slots available to a Paladin one should always be on the conservative side when using spell slots. My main argument in the initial post was in response to somebody claiming there isn't many spells that compete with Wrathful Smite at 1st level.
Now I admit my of claim of "9 out of 10 times" is probably off but I still stand by my assertion that Bless is a better use of your concentration than Wrathful Smite in more situations than not.