I’m not sure that what you’re saying is true. If you read the feat it’s very clear that “X comes before Y” given the way that it’s phrased. Again, if a DM house rules that you can ignore that, then this feat becomes waaay better.
I'm not saying you are wrong to feel that it is a fair interpretation to say that B comes only after A. I do disagree with where you say RAW is very clear on the matter. If the text said, "If you take the Attack action on your turn, then you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield." I would agree that it is very clear because you have "If A, then B", but the word "then" does not appear in the text, so you have, "As long as A happens, B can also happen." All I'm saying is that I feel RAW is ambiguous.
I am saying that when you bolster your position by referencing Jeremy Crawford, you are introducing RAI and should be careful to stay aware of the distinction. It's no less valid, but it is a distinction nonetheless. Since you mention Jeremy Crawford, the tweet you reference has him directly reversing his own position from this tweet in 2015. Again, if it's not in the book or official errata, it's not RAW.
I was aware of his reversal actually. Perhaps you're right regarding the distinction between RAW and RAI. Maybe you're right about the timing as well given the wording. It says that you must take the attack action on your turn and doesn't imply that the attack must come before the bonus.
Regardless, my point regarding DM interpretation still stands. There are going to be a lot of DMs that still rule that your attack must happen before the shove for the shove to be possible. As such, speak with your DM first before assuming that you'll be allowed to shove first and then attack.
Paladins and attacking has been covered well. Paladins yoyo lay on hands healing has been covered.
Defensive Paladins, the non glamorous order of the ancients have one of the worst channeled powers. Its all about the 7th level aura that halves spell damage to the party. Remember that is on top of your 6th level aura adding to saves means +5 to all saves and half damage so spell AOE is for half or quarter. If you should gain access to fifth level paladin spells Circle of Power means for 10 minutes its time to ignore most effects - all allies have advantages on magic saves (not just spells) and any for half means zero damage. (although a 10th level bard can pick this up as a secret song at 10th, cast it more times a day and then between the two of you, waltz through supposedly challenging magical attack encounters until the end of your adventuring career - go bards!)
Yuanti Paladin is built for Ancient order personal shenanigans but otherwise make excellent paladins and with their save advantage on spells coupled with the 6th aura saves mean you are unlikely to fall to magic. Oh and with the paladins immunity to diseases combined with serpent man immunity to poison stomp through gas spores and other toxin based encounters with a smile wide enough to expose your forked tongue.
Shield master is a great feat for Defense-adin's not for shove but for the reaction to negate damage (thankyou charisma buff) I struggle to come up with an effect that targets a single target and requires a dex save but if it happens add the shields bonus to the save (and remember if its magical add the shield+ to the save as the + increases the ac it gives.) There is one possibility here, which would require dm agreement - if you are a protection fighting style you may be allowed to combine interposing a shield with the shield masters reaction to specifically forgo your own protection when the dragon / mage pukes fire all over you and instead grant a chance of survival to a weakened or fragile ally instead. Remember that some monsters hit hard. If you have a high AC and shield of faith you can still be hit, sometimes its better to attract the hits and simply use the dodge action to prevent the chances of damage occurring whilst your allies take the beast down. (1 in 20 odds of a crit are lot less favourable than 1 in 400)
Finally the option for carnage and horror. The oathsworn (dmg, DM approval etc) So you chose to turn your back on your oath now your aura adds to your sweapon damage rolls, it also add to those of all undead and fiends in aura range. If you ally with a necromancer, you and his zombies make a line of high hitpoint blockers, who hit deceptively hard and those death saves to avoid collapse? remember to add your charisma buff to them! Eventually the oathsworn begins to ignore the laws of reality - At 15th they are resistant to all non magical physical hits..
The warlock option - mostly its take one level to become a hexblade, and use your hex weapon (adding your charisma to hit and damage - well what do you know you had a high charisma anyway!) otherwise its go to 7 or 8 paladin (8 for the asi) and the rest hex lock choosing invocations that increase melee damage.
Something not to overlook is your summoned steed spell, and the improved one in Xanathars guide.
Enjoy your smiting but remember, moon druids never sleep.
Finally the option for carnage and horror. The oathsworn (dmg, DM approval etc) So you chose to turn your back on your oath now your aura adds to your sweapon damage rolls, it also add to those of all undead and fiends in aura range. If you ally with a necromancer, you and his zombies make a line of high hitpoint blockers, who hit deceptively hard and those death saves to avoid collapse? remember to add your charisma buff to them! Eventually the oathsworn begins to ignore the laws of reality - At 15th they are resistant to all non magical physical hits..
1) I believe you mean Oathbreaker, not oathsworn.
2) The ability to buff the attacks of undead creatures applies to ALL undead, not just the ones controlled by YOUR necromancer. Which can be a big problem in a campaign with lots of undead minions.
Apologies Vii, the assumption is that having broken your oath and still granted some measure of infernal power you are forsworn from entering your former patrons grace if you should fall, and that a new decidedly darker power must be involved in your 'prayers' still being granted. That being the case why trust an oathbreaker? The promises they enact will make you Oathsworn to them for considerably longer than your lifetime.
Its entirely up to you about incorporating how and why such a fallen champion would retain any abilities but its worth thinking about.
Regarding the aura danger, yup it is an issue but not unsolveable until your aura expands to 30' and your for some reason fighting undead and fiends, but if one of these is in the party that would normally be an exception than a rule. When it does happen is it happenstance or has your former Power put this in motion to end you, for if you choose to work for the pit, why not die by its inhabitants?
If you really want an unkillable paladin when you hit lvl 12 and maxes out at lvl 20. Do 14 lvls of Devotion Paladin, 3 lvls of Bear Toetum Barbarian, and 3 lvls of Battlemaster fighter.
Feats of Heavy Armor Master, Tough, and Resilent (Con). Primary stat should be charisma and then strength and constitution.
You now have advantage on dex saves, resistance to all damage except psychic, proficentcy in con saves that are at auto save territory.
My rolls for this character at lvl 1 are str 18, dex 14, con 16, int 13, wis 16, chr 18
If you really want an unkillable paladin when you hit lvl 12 and maxes out at lvl 20. Do 14 lvls of Devotion Paladin, 3 lvls of Bear Toetum Barbarian, and 3 lvls of Battlemaster fighter.
Feats of Heavy Armor Master, Tough, and Resilent (Con). Primary stat should be charisma and then strength and constitution.
You now have advantage on dex saves, resistance to all damage except psychic, proficentcy in con saves that are at auto save territory.
My rolls for this character at lvl 1 are str 18, dex 14, con 16, int 13, wis 16, chr 18
With those rolled stats I would hope that whatever you made was unkillable o_O. Those stats almost make ASIs irrelevant.
Its all about the 7th level aura that halves spell damage to the party. Remember that is on top of your 6th level aura adding to saves means +5 to all saves and half damage so spell AOE is for half or quarter.
HI, this is a noob question about a post on 1rst page
Any Level 2 Pal can do just monstrous things in battle. The Pal, when outnumbering opponents, can select Thunderous Smite and combine with with Divine Smite on the first Bonus/Attack action in the first round of combat.
how can you combine both spells ?and I was looking at thunderous strike on this site builder, but doesn't appear, is it normal ?
Thunderous Smite: PHB pg 282. And AFAIK, it is possible to simultaneously cast a smite spell as well as expend paladin spell slots to Divine Smite on a successful hit. It's slot-intensive, and a paladin doesn't really have all that many slots per day. Still, if your goal is to go nova on someone during a boss fight, there you go.
The divine smite ability of a paladin doesnt require an action its a choice after you have hit. You could spend a spell slot if you had one left, on top of the specific smite spell you were concentrating on and expended on a hit.
For example: Paladin 5 hits twice in one round with a longsword. Has precast wrathful smite (1st) Then chooses to burn both second level slots on divine smites, one for each hit with the longsword. Damage dice = 1d8+3d8 radiant +1d6 psychic and attack two 1d8+3d8 radiant.
This is an example of the extreme burst damage a paladin is capable of, and of course is horrible when they expend it on a crit (doubling all damage dice) The limiting factor is thats your paladin using almost half their spell arsenal (at this level) in one round of one combat encounter - if your DM sets up only one fight per long rest then Paladins will be laughing.
Good morning. I have a paladin character in a current campaign with this stats:
Lvl: 7
Str 17 (+3); Dex 13 (+1); Con 16 (+3); Int 13 (+1); Wis 15 (+2) & Char 16 (+3).
Have a Magic Weapon (Shortsword + 1); a Longsword; a Longbow; GreatSword; Great Axe; Halberd; Glave and 7 Daggers in my inventory. Also i have a heavy armor or 18 AC and a Shield.
My original stats (before the ability score improvemente at lvl 4) were: Str 15 (+2); Dex 13 (+1); Con 16 (+3); Int 13 (+1); Wis 15 (+2); & Char 16 (+3).
My race is Human
Oath of Vengeance
FIghting style: Dueling.
What do you recommend me to do here on?, In the next level i have to decide to improve ability score or learn a feat; what do you suggest? I wat to build a strong and versatil paladin. Please help me.
Good morning. I have a paladin character in a current campaign with this stats:
Lvl: 7
Str 17 (+3); Dex 13 (+1); Con 16 (+3); Int 13 (+1); Wis 15 (+2) & Char 16 (+3).
Have a Magic Weapon (Shortsword + 1); a Longsword; a Longbow; GreatSword; Great Axe; Halberd; Glave and 7 Daggers in my inventory. Also i have a heavy armor or 18 AC and a Shield.
My original stats (before the ability score improvemente at lvl 4) were: Str 15 (+2); Dex 13 (+1); Con 16 (+3); Int 13 (+1); Wis 15 (+2); & Char 16 (+3).
My race is Human
Oath of Vengeance
FIghting style: Dueling.
What do you recommend me to do here on?, In the next level i have to decide to improve ability score or learn a feat; what do you suggest? I wat to build a strong and versatil paladin. Please help me.
I’d say either Heavy Armor Master to bump Str to 18 and the damage resistance; or ASI to bump Chr to 18 and boost Aura of Protection and another spell to prepare.
That sounds great!, Thanks. By the way, its recomendable to do multiclassing to warlock, or it's more valuable to continue to level 20 in my actual class?.
Pally lvl 5 ( or any class combinations that has the extra attack feat), First Turn; Bonus action, Any Smite spell you fancy, and use your action/spell for something else this turn.
-Second turn, go next an enemy, and attack it, first Attack Unleash the Smite spell, and Use Divine Smite, then use this turn BA to cast again a Smite spell, Second attack, Unleash the Smite spell and use once again the Divine Smite...
Profit...
Its the kind of thing you pull when you ABSOLUTLY need a Mofo dead, and its spellslots intensive, but O so much fun...
And if you MC Pally/Hexblade and took the Eldritch Smite invocation, its even funnier...(first attack Smite spell+Eldritch Smite, targets prone, then SMite spell +Divine Smite with advantage on attack)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Bonus Action: Cast a Smite Spell. Action: Dodge. Now attacks against you are at Disadvantage. Move Action: March up to the front line. Reaction: Attack of Opportunity. Smite Spell + Divine Smite.
you can double smite as a paladin hexblade multi class, aka a Hexadin. A half-elf with elven accuracy, vengeance paladin is good combo. The 3 turn combo is channel divinty for that 1 minute advantage, then hex blade curse so you can crit on 19s or 20s (and with those odds crit chance is around 25ish percent, since 2/20 with advantage 2 times), and if you hit on the 3rd turn when you cast banish smite (math is for 11 paladin/9 warlock) you deal weapon damage+ (3rd lvl spell slot)6d8 radiant(7d8 is fiends or undead)+ 6d8force(eldritch smite at 5 lvl)+ 5d10 force (banishing smite at 5th lvl) for a maxim total of 18d8s of damage with no crit and if you crit its 36d8s of damage. You can do this once per short rest 3 tiems before a long rest, if you dont use any slots above 2 for that day. This also assumes your not doing exploding dice
I’m not sure that what you’re saying is true. If you read the feat it’s very clear that “X comes before Y” given the way that it’s phrased. Again, if a DM house rules that you can ignore that, then this feat becomes waaay better.
I'm not saying you are wrong to feel that it is a fair interpretation to say that B comes only after A. I do disagree with where you say RAW is very clear on the matter. If the text said, "If you take the Attack action on your turn, then you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield." I would agree that it is very clear because you have "If A, then B", but the word "then" does not appear in the text, so you have, "As long as A happens, B can also happen." All I'm saying is that I feel RAW is ambiguous.
I am saying that when you bolster your position by referencing Jeremy Crawford, you are introducing RAI and should be careful to stay aware of the distinction. It's no less valid, but it is a distinction nonetheless. Since you mention Jeremy Crawford, the tweet you reference has him directly reversing his own position from this tweet in 2015. Again, if it's not in the book or official errata, it's not RAW.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I was aware of his reversal actually. Perhaps you're right regarding the distinction between RAW and RAI. Maybe you're right about the timing as well given the wording. It says that you must take the attack action on your turn and doesn't imply that the attack must come before the bonus.
Regardless, my point regarding DM interpretation still stands. There are going to be a lot of DMs that still rule that your attack must happen before the shove for the shove to be possible. As such, speak with your DM first before assuming that you'll be allowed to shove first and then attack.
Paladins and attacking has been covered well. Paladins yoyo lay on hands healing has been covered.
Defensive Paladins, the non glamorous order of the ancients have one of the worst channeled powers. Its all about the 7th level aura that halves spell damage to the party. Remember that is on top of your 6th level aura adding to saves means +5 to all saves and half damage so spell AOE is for half or quarter. If you should gain access to fifth level paladin spells Circle of Power means for 10 minutes its time to ignore most effects - all allies have advantages on magic saves (not just spells) and any for half means zero damage. (although a 10th level bard can pick this up as a secret song at 10th, cast it more times a day and then between the two of you, waltz through supposedly challenging magical attack encounters until the end of your adventuring career - go bards!)
Yuanti Paladin is built for Ancient order personal shenanigans but otherwise make excellent paladins and with their save advantage on spells coupled with the 6th aura saves mean you are unlikely to fall to magic. Oh and with the paladins immunity to diseases combined with serpent man immunity to poison stomp through gas spores and other toxin based encounters with a smile wide enough to expose your forked tongue.
Shield master is a great feat for Defense-adin's not for shove but for the reaction to negate damage (thankyou charisma buff) I struggle to come up with an effect that targets a single target and requires a dex save but if it happens add the shields bonus to the save (and remember if its magical add the shield+ to the save as the + increases the ac it gives.) There is one possibility here, which would require dm agreement - if you are a protection fighting style you may be allowed to combine interposing a shield with the shield masters reaction to specifically forgo your own protection when the dragon / mage pukes fire all over you and instead grant a chance of survival to a weakened or fragile ally instead. Remember that some monsters hit hard. If you have a high AC and shield of faith you can still be hit, sometimes its better to attract the hits and simply use the dodge action to prevent the chances of damage occurring whilst your allies take the beast down. (1 in 20 odds of a crit are lot less favourable than 1 in 400)
Finally the option for carnage and horror. The oathsworn (dmg, DM approval etc) So you chose to turn your back on your oath now your aura adds to your sweapon damage rolls, it also add to those of all undead and fiends in aura range. If you ally with a necromancer, you and his zombies make a line of high hitpoint blockers, who hit deceptively hard and those death saves to avoid collapse? remember to add your charisma buff to them! Eventually the oathsworn begins to ignore the laws of reality - At 15th they are resistant to all non magical physical hits..
The warlock option - mostly its take one level to become a hexblade, and use your hex weapon (adding your charisma to hit and damage - well what do you know you had a high charisma anyway!) otherwise its go to 7 or 8 paladin (8 for the asi) and the rest hex lock choosing invocations that increase melee damage.
Something not to overlook is your summoned steed spell, and the improved one in Xanathars guide.
Enjoy your smiting but remember, moon druids never sleep.
1) I believe you mean Oathbreaker, not oathsworn.
2) The ability to buff the attacks of undead creatures applies to ALL undead, not just the ones controlled by YOUR necromancer. Which can be a big problem in a campaign with lots of undead minions.
Apologies Vii, the assumption is that having broken your oath and still granted some measure of infernal power you are forsworn from entering your former patrons grace if you should fall, and that a new decidedly darker power must be involved in your 'prayers' still being granted. That being the case why trust an oathbreaker? The promises they enact will make you Oathsworn to them for considerably longer than your lifetime.
Its entirely up to you about incorporating how and why such a fallen champion would retain any abilities but its worth thinking about.
Regarding the aura danger, yup it is an issue but not unsolveable until your aura expands to 30' and your for some reason fighting undead and fiends, but if one of these is in the party that would normally be an exception than a rule. When it does happen is it happenstance or has your former Power put this in motion to end you, for if you choose to work for the pit, why not die by its inhabitants?
If you really want an unkillable paladin when you hit lvl 12 and maxes out at lvl 20. Do 14 lvls of Devotion Paladin, 3 lvls of Bear Toetum Barbarian, and 3 lvls of Battlemaster fighter.
Feats of Heavy Armor Master, Tough, and Resilent (Con). Primary stat should be charisma and then strength and constitution.
You now have advantage on dex saves, resistance to all damage except psychic, proficentcy in con saves that are at auto save territory.
My rolls for this character at lvl 1 are str 18, dex 14, con 16, int 13, wis 16, chr 18
With those rolled stats I would hope that whatever you made was unkillable o_O. Those stats almost make ASIs irrelevant.
This right here. I salute you!
HI, this is a noob question about a post on 1rst page
Any Level 2 Pal can do just monstrous things in battle. The Pal, when outnumbering opponents, can select Thunderous Smite and combine with with Divine Smite on the first Bonus/Attack action in the first round of combat.
how can you combine both spells ?and I was looking at thunderous strike on this site builder, but doesn't appear, is it normal ?
thanks
Vince
Thunderous Smite: PHB pg 282. And AFAIK, it is possible to simultaneously cast a smite spell as well as expend paladin spell slots to Divine Smite on a successful hit. It's slot-intensive, and a paladin doesn't really have all that many slots per day. Still, if your goal is to go nova on someone during a boss fight, there you go.
The divine smite ability of a paladin doesnt require an action its a choice after you have hit. You could spend a spell slot if you had one left, on top of the specific smite spell you were concentrating on and expended on a hit.
For example: Paladin 5 hits twice in one round with a longsword. Has precast wrathful smite (1st) Then chooses to burn both second level slots on divine smites, one for each hit with the longsword. Damage dice = 1d8+3d8 radiant +1d6 psychic and attack two 1d8+3d8 radiant.
This is an example of the extreme burst damage a paladin is capable of, and of course is horrible when they expend it on a crit (doubling all damage dice) The limiting factor is thats your paladin using almost half their spell arsenal (at this level) in one round of one combat encounter - if your DM sets up only one fight per long rest then Paladins will be laughing.
Good morning. I have a paladin character in a current campaign with this stats:
Lvl: 7
Str 17 (+3); Dex 13 (+1); Con 16 (+3); Int 13 (+1); Wis 15 (+2) & Char 16 (+3).
Have a Magic Weapon (Shortsword + 1); a Longsword; a Longbow; GreatSword; Great Axe; Halberd; Glave and 7 Daggers in my inventory. Also i have a heavy armor or 18 AC and a Shield.
My original stats (before the ability score improvemente at lvl 4) were: Str 15 (+2); Dex 13 (+1); Con 16 (+3); Int 13 (+1); Wis 15 (+2); & Char 16 (+3).
My race is Human
Oath of Vengeance
FIghting style: Dueling.
What do you recommend me to do here on?, In the next level i have to decide to improve ability score or learn a feat; what do you suggest? I wat to build a strong and versatil paladin. Please help me.
I’d say either Heavy Armor Master to bump Str to 18 and the damage resistance; or ASI to bump Chr to 18 and boost Aura of Protection and another spell to prepare.
That sounds great!, Thanks. By the way, its recomendable to do multiclassing to warlock, or it's more valuable to continue to level 20 in my actual class?.
I’m a big fan of going the full 20, regardless of class. A save DC 19 vs. fear, without the need for concentration, is pretty powerful.
Pally lvl 5 ( or any class combinations that has the extra attack feat), First Turn; Bonus action, Any Smite spell you fancy, and use your action/spell for something else this turn.
-Second turn, go next an enemy, and attack it, first Attack Unleash the Smite spell, and Use Divine Smite, then use this turn BA to cast again a Smite spell, Second attack, Unleash the Smite spell and use once again the Divine Smite...
Profit...
Its the kind of thing you pull when you ABSOLUTLY need a Mofo dead, and its spellslots intensive, but O so much fun...
And if you MC Pally/Hexblade and took the Eldritch Smite invocation, its even funnier...(first attack Smite spell+Eldritch Smite, targets prone, then SMite spell +Divine Smite with advantage on attack)
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Bonus Action: Cast a Smite Spell.
Action: Dodge. Now attacks against you are at Disadvantage.
Move Action: March up to the front line.
Reaction: Attack of Opportunity. Smite Spell + Divine Smite.
you can double smite as a paladin hexblade multi class, aka a Hexadin. A half-elf with elven accuracy, vengeance paladin is good combo. The 3 turn combo is channel divinty for that 1 minute advantage, then hex blade curse so you can crit on 19s or 20s (and with those odds crit chance is around 25ish percent, since 2/20 with advantage 2 times), and if you hit on the 3rd turn when you cast banish smite (math is for 11 paladin/9 warlock) you deal weapon damage+ (3rd lvl spell slot)6d8 radiant(7d8 is fiends or undead)+ 6d8force(eldritch smite at 5 lvl)+ 5d10 force (banishing smite at 5th lvl) for a maxim total of 18d8s of damage with no crit and if you crit its 36d8s of damage. You can do this once per short rest 3 tiems before a long rest, if you dont use any slots above 2 for that day. This also assumes your not doing exploding dice
No one ever mentions mounted combat and great weapon master. Find steed and you damn near always have advantage for GwM.