why are you making your numbers as “expertise” for deft explorer... but when you compare to natural explorer you are removing proficiency all together?
its +2, then +3 and so forth. The player would still be PROFICIENT, they just would not have EXPERTISE. Hence, the advantage is much better for a long long long long time. Even discounting the advantage is for more than just 1 specific skill.
And I am sorry, that you have never seen a straight wisdom or straight intelligence check in any campaign you have been in. But I can safely assure you. This is a real thing, that can and does happen.
I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters .
I am not sure about the whole "created terrain argument", I think it distracts from the discussion. So, I'll ignore that for now.
Points of variance( I think you should consider each if they are true or false and if they would have altered your experience by changing sides)
knowledge and skills about favored terrain do not include creatures. - don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites.
There is no consideration for terrain overlap - Plants grow in multiple biomes, tracking skills are often similar in different terrains.
Imperfect knowledge won't provide a bonus. -A tree expert knows how to study trees and even if its a "cousin plant" the knowledge may be helpful but its not guaranteed. it just needs enough of a connection to provide skill Bonus. In the end, its still d20 dependent.
Creatures and plants can be displaced (non-magically) - A herbalist (or posioner) will buy plants and materials from other biomes to use locally. The rich and powerful like to show off by owning things that are not from local environments just to show off.
The dungeon of the mad mage (AKA Undermountain provides) no bonus to mountains or under-dark.
The value of harvested materials and collecting is unused. Food, ingredients for potions and cures, harvested Poisons and venoms.
" I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters ." - yeah, it would seem that some people think NE is a superpower and extrapolate abilities that it doesn't actually give you.
"don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites" Really? So every venom in the world is the same thing? No, sorry, but a rattlesnake bite in Montana isn't going to have the same cure as an egyptian Asp. Even if you argue that you can treat them the same, which you can't, the natural ingredients in one environment that can treat it will be wildly different than those in another.
Most of the other points don't really seem to focused on anything I said.
I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters .
I am not sure about the whole "created terrain argument", I think it distracts from the discussion. So, I'll ignore that for now.
Points of variance( I think you should consider each if they are true or false and if they would have altered your experience by changing sides)
knowledge and skills about favored terrain do not include creatures. - don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites.
There is no consideration for terrain overlap - Plants grow in multiple biomes, tracking skills are often similar in different terrains.
Imperfect knowledge won't provide a bonus. -A tree expert knows how to study trees and even if its a "cousin plant" the knowledge may be helpful but its not guaranteed. it just needs enough of a connection to provide skill Bonus. In the end, its still d20 dependent.
Creatures and plants can be displaced (non-magically) - A herbalist (or posioner) will buy plants and materials from other biomes to use locally. The rich and powerful like to show off by owning things that are not from local environments just to show off.
The dungeon of the mad mage (AKA Undermountain provides) no bonus to mountains or under-dark.
The value of harvested materials and collecting is unused. Food, ingredients for potions and cures, harvested Poisons and venoms.
" I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters ." - yeah, it would seem that some people think NE is a superpower and extrapolate abilities that it doesn't actually give you.
"don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites" Really? So every venom in the world is the same thing? No, sorry, but a rattlesnake bite in Montana isn't going to have the same cure as an egyptian Asp. Even if you argue that you can treat them the same, which you can't, the natural ingredients in one environment that can treat it will be wildly different than those in another.
Most of the other points don't really seem to focused on anything I said.
Rattlesnake desert snake
asp desert snake.
bad example to a good point.
maybe go cobra, which is more a jungle snake. To rattlesnake a desert snake.
I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters .
I am not sure about the whole "created terrain argument", I think it distracts from the discussion. So, I'll ignore that for now.
Points of variance( I think you should consider each if they are true or false and if they would have altered your experience by changing sides)
knowledge and skills about favored terrain do not include creatures. - don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites.
There is no consideration for terrain overlap - Plants grow in multiple biomes, tracking skills are often similar in different terrains.
Imperfect knowledge won't provide a bonus. -A tree expert knows how to study trees and even if its a "cousin plant" the knowledge may be helpful but its not guaranteed. it just needs enough of a connection to provide skill Bonus. In the end, its still d20 dependent.
Creatures and plants can be displaced (non-magically) - A herbalist (or posioner) will buy plants and materials from other biomes to use locally. The rich and powerful like to show off by owning things that are not from local environments just to show off.
The dungeon of the mad mage (AKA Undermountain provides) no bonus to mountains or under-dark.
The value of harvested materials and collecting is unused. Food, ingredients for potions and cures, harvested Poisons and venoms.
" I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters ." - yeah, it would seem that some people think NE is a superpower and extrapolate abilities that it doesn't actually give you.
"don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites" Really? So every venom in the world is the same thing? No, sorry, but a rattlesnake bite in Montana isn't going to have the same cure as an egyptian Asp. Even if you argue that you can treat them the same, which you can't, the natural ingredients in one environment that can treat it will be wildly different than those in another.
Most of the other points don't really seem to focused on anything I said.
Rattlesnake desert snake
asp desert snake.
bad example to a good point.
maybe go cobra, which is more a jungle snake. To rattlesnake a desert snake.
Going off 2 desert snakes.
Animal handling/nature check for desert snakes and how their venoms work
medicine check for how desert snake venoms are treated in desert regions
Investigation/nature check for which form of desert venom handling based off your medicine would work best.
You are stating that you "feel" deft explorer is better. Deft explorer is a combat focused selfish replacement ability for an exploration group ability. They aren't equivalent. If you said that a longbow is much better to use in combat than carpenter's tools, I couldn't not refute your statement, as silly of a statement that would be. The whole first paragraph of your post proves that you don't even understand the natural explorer ability. The expertise of NE has NOTHING to do with being IN ONE of the terrains. NOTHING. Make me a list of what you think the nature and survival skills are used for, please.
I like deft explorer. It's a great option. But no the ranger has options with their class abilities similar to how a martial has options for fighting styles or a caster has options for spells to prepare. One does not supersedes the other 100% without a doubt no questions asked all of the time. That is nonsense. They do COMPLETELY different things. Just say you like DE better because you prefer combat more than anything else.
You said, "Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel. (Nice feature but really only matters if you have a clock you are racing against, if not who cares if it takes extra time)" Right. And feather fall only matters when you are falling. Straw man argument. Silly. This is campaign saving when needed.
You said, "Your group can’t become lost except by magical means. (You know the best way not to get lost, have a high Survival +, say from something like Expertise)" Right. Like the ranger would have at this time. Again you are comparing something all rangers have to a character taking a specific background, a specific class, a specific subclass, and investing in two specific ability scores to do something a little better than any ranger some of the time (expertise over proficiency is 5%-20% better in tiers 1 and 2). That is one hell of an investment. Plus, rogues are better at any skills they focus on. That is what rogues do. It would be pathetic and sad if someone invested that much into a rogue and they weren't pretty good at it.
You said, "Even when you are engaged in another activity while traveling (such as foraging, navigating, or tracking), you remain alert to danger. (this feature is so vague I have literally never used it or had it come up, also YOU being alert to danger does nothing for the other party members)" So here it looks like you don't know or follow the rules for travel. A creature can't do everything all the time. A creature can't use perception in all directions all the time, they can't track and do anything else, they can't scout and do anything else. Safety in numbers. But a ranger can do one thing AND use perception. In multiple directions if they are a beast master. This is just action economy at this point. Just like combat.
You said, "If you are traveling alone, you can move stealthily at a normal pace. (big deal, how often are you traveling alone?)" How often?! How about when you are...scouting!!! Your scout rogue reference has it in their name! Again, the beast master can do this with their critter that is somewhere in the 18-21 passive perception range as well. Normal speed while moving stealthily with pass without trace and hide in plain sight? Natural environment infiltrator expert!
You said, "When you forage, you find twice as much food as you normally would. (Good feature except that ANY player who took the Outlander background can find food for 5 in most environment and rangers have Goodberry so if food is a concern in the campaign you took Goodberry at level 2 so if you blow a Survival check, you know that skill you could have Expertise on, you aren't going to starve)" Wow. Goodberry is amazing and covers any environment. Out at sea? On Avernus? In a desert? Also, the background ability reads, "In addition, you can find food and fresh water for yourself and up to five other people each day, provided that the land offers berries, small game, water, and so forth.". You still have to make the check to find the food and water. The DMG gives DCs and rules for foraging. Your argument is another straw man argument. A ranger with the background feature can also do this...times 2!
You said, "While tracking other creatures, you also learn their exact number, their sizes, and how long ago they passed through the area. (ok, but a survival check can do a rough version of this which would probably be just as useful as the exact information." No. That is not how tracking works. Again, in the DMG. Being overly generous and not as intended with a rule doesn't make the rule awful. People complain that monopoly takes too long, but they all use rules that they made up and aren't part of the game make the game longer.
You said, "So yeah, even discounting the fact that NE gives you only 3/8 possible terrains and that those 8 don't even encompass all the environments you could be in - the features that you get while in one are either mostly useless or are all Survival checks meaning your Ranger will be outmatched by a Rogue with expertise in survival or a Ranger who took Deft Explorer and choose Survival, either of which can now achieve the most important parts of that list literally everywhere. The ranger who chose Deft Explorer also knows two more languages, moves 5 feet faster, can climb and swim just as fast, can give themselves temp hp and can stand watch by themselves all night long and have no exhaustion by the time your group has finished eating breakfast and planning the day." Look in the DMG. It gives DCs for things and places. You are looking at DCs that are mostly in the 10 and 15 spot. Saying a scout rogue is better than a ranger while not in one of their terrains is like saying a paladin is better at killing kobolds than a ranger because they have smite. If the DC is fifteen and the ranger not in a terrain rolls a 17 the rogue would roll a 20. Also almost all adventures take place in one or two environments. Of all of the environments, only a few are ones where you would even need a check at all. Plains? Hills? Coast? Nope. And again, the expertise doesn't have to be in that environment at all. Predicting weather, making a fire, hunting, tracking, or anything else related to one environment can be done in others.
I like deft explorer, but it isn't an upgrade or direct replacement for natural explorer. They are two different things. Scout rogues are a joke. If someone or a table doesn't use the rules at all or correctly that are part of an ability it isn't that abilities fault.
You can argue that DE is a "selfish replacement", I was arguing that most of the group benefits are superficial and provide no real benefit
I do like DE better, but It isn't because I like combat and nothing else, it is because I like features that actually DO something and as described, I don't think most of the group features really do anything of consequence.
"You said, "Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel. (Nice feature but really only matters if you have a clock you are racing against, if not who cares if it takes extra time)" Right. And feather fall only matters when you are falling. Straw man argument. Silly. This is campaign saving when needed." - First, I don't think you know what a straw man argument is because you accuse me of one multiple times and none of my arguments are. A straw man is if I suggested YOU made an argument you didn't and then said why YOUR argument is wrong, but in every example it is MY argument I am making. You can disagree with it, but it isn't a straw man. Second, you didn't dispute my statement - you merely said that it can save a campaign when needed - in other words... travel time is irrelevant 99% of the time, but for that 1 time you are racing a clock you can ignore difficult terrain. I have NEVER had that happen in a campaign. Give me ANY other example as to why this would EVER matter other than a race against the clock?
"You said, "Your group can’t become lost except by magical means. (You know the best way not to get lost, have a high Survival +, say from something like Expertise)" Right. Like the ranger would have at this time. Again you are comparing something all rangers have to a character taking a specific background, a specific class, a specific subclass, and investing in two specific ability scores to do something a little better than any ranger some of the time" - Nope, I am not suggesting any of that, a single class Ranger with ANY backgroud you want who takes Deft Explorer and picks Survival for their Expertise is what I am talking about. If traveling and exploration in your campaign is important enough to worry about becoming lost, you took Survival as a skill.
"So here it looks like you don't know or follow the rules for travel. A creature can't do everything all the time. A creature can't use perception in all directions all the time" Actually ALL characters "use perception in all directions all the time" - it's called Passive Perception and it is always on, so even without this feature a Ranger tracking isn't completely senseless and while I am tracking, the other party members aren't, so they can be looking out for danger.
(big deal, how often are you traveling alone?) "How often?! How about when you are...scouting!!!" If I am scouting 40ft-100ft ahead of the party, I am not traveling alone. Just what exactly is your definition of traveling alone?
"Again you are comparing something all rangers have to a character taking a specific background, a specific class..." I am not comparing, I am demonstrating why I think the ability is useless and pointing out multiple ways in which you can achieve the same thing. The bigger point was that in MOST campaigns ration management just doesn't exist and IF you are in a campaign where it IS a big deal than you just take Goodberry and IF you fail your survival check, who cares, you all are still 100% nourished. "A ranger with the background feature can also do this...times 2!" big deal, so they can find food for 10 - the EXACT number of Goodberries the spell creates.
"No. That is not how tracking works. Again, in the DMG. Being overly generous and not as intended with a rule doesn't make the rule awful" Really? mbecause right out of the DMG...
"Adventurers sometimes choose their path by following the tracks of other creatures — or other creatures might track the adventurers! To track, one or more creatures must succeed on a Wisdom (Survival) check."
So if any character says ANY of the following the DM is gonna call for a survival check: "how many do I think there are" "how long ago do I think these tracks were made" "how big do I think this creature is" - it is going to result in some variation of the info based on a Survival roll, having the EXACT information (still dependent on a survival roll unless your position is that an NE ranger auto succeeds) is arguably not that much more valuable.
"Of all of the environments, only a few are ones where you would even need a check at all. Plains? Hills? Coast? Nope." So let me see if I understand, my saying that you only get 3/8 and that isn't even all inclusive is being first countered with you saying that Plains, Hills, and Coast are useless to take because you don't even need a check in them? How does that make ANY sense? What does that even mean? I genuinely am baffled by that comment and really need an explanation on that, but I ameven MORE baffled by your last part...
"And again, the expertise doesn't have to be in that environment at all. Predicting weather, making a fire, hunting, tracking, or anything else related to one environment can be done in others." What? Are you telling me that because I know how to predict the weather in a swamp I can predict the weather in the desert? Because I know how to make a fire in a forest I can make one in the Underdark or a Mountain? I know how to track in the Arctic so I can track EVERYWHERE! Why even bother having the player pick a terrain if you are just going to blanket say you can do literally anything anywhere? This is by far the most non-sense argument I have ever heard. You are gonna have to explain yourself better because that sounds insane.
why are you making your numbers as “expertise” for deft explorer... but when you compare to natural explorer you are removing proficiency all together?
its +2, then +3 and so forth. The player would still be PROFICIENT, they just would not have EXPERTISE. Hence, the advantage is much better for a long long long long time. Even discounting the advantage is for more than just 1 specific skill.
And I am sorry, that you have never seen a straight wisdom or straight intelligence check in any campaign you have been in. But I can safely assure you. This is a real thing, that can and does happen.
For ease of use we will assume that the both players have the same Wisdom modifier and we will set that at a static +3. Giving the Ranger a +5 when they are in their terrain it does give them an edge, but they get trounced outside of that.
Level
Deft Exp
Nat Exp (out)
Nat Exp (in)
1-4
7
5
10
5-8
9
6
11
9-12
11
7
12
13-16
13
8
13
17+
15
9
14
I didn't say that "[I] have never seen a straight wisdom or straight intelligence check in any campaign you have been in" I said that I have never heard of anyone letting NE function on one.
I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters .
I am not sure about the whole "created terrain argument", I think it distracts from the discussion. So, I'll ignore that for now.
Points of variance( I think you should consider each if they are true or false and if they would have altered your experience by changing sides)
knowledge and skills about favored terrain do not include creatures. - don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites.
There is no consideration for terrain overlap - Plants grow in multiple biomes, tracking skills are often similar in different terrains.
Imperfect knowledge won't provide a bonus. -A tree expert knows how to study trees and even if its a "cousin plant" the knowledge may be helpful but its not guaranteed. it just needs enough of a connection to provide skill Bonus. In the end, its still d20 dependent.
Creatures and plants can be displaced (non-magically) - A herbalist (or posioner) will buy plants and materials from other biomes to use locally. The rich and powerful like to show off by owning things that are not from local environments just to show off.
The dungeon of the mad mage (AKA Undermountain provides) no bonus to mountains or under-dark.
The value of harvested materials and collecting is unused. Food, ingredients for potions and cures, harvested Poisons and venoms.
" I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters ." - yeah, it would seem that some people think NE is a superpower and extrapolate abilities that it doesn't actually give you.
"don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites" Really? So every venom in the world is the same thing? No, sorry, but a rattlesnake bite in Montana isn't going to have the same cure as an egyptian Asp. Even if you argue that you can treat them the same, which you can't, the natural ingredients in one environment that can treat it will be wildly different than those in another.
Most of the other points don't really seem to focused on anything I said.
The whole if abilities are used they are Overpowered. This Argument allows you to skip all the varied middle ground between.
The second paragraph At first glance appears to be an attack on Point one but is actually an attack on point 3 allowing your response to be framed in an exaggerated manner.
Point one was trying to show terrain included creatures. So let me clarify an underdark ranger Would have knowledge about Underdark spiders. That same ranger could track that same underdark spider if it escaped from a zoo in the desert. Why? Its because he knows its patters of behavior, He knows its smell and tracks. each might be affected by the terrain but they would still give an advantage over some one who dose't know.
Point3. Dnd flora and fauna is not varied As our universe is. There is no subdivision of skills. So, yes a spider that uses the same statblock is functionally the same spider.
There is no difference between a stone carver and a Mason. There is no difference between a surgeon and A paramedic. Both groups use the same in-game skill even though the skill sets are vastly different. And IRL, if you're in an accident, say a snake bite, and no one was around but a stonemason or a surgeon wouldn't You rather have the surgeon's advice than the stonemason. Why because even if its out of his " area of expertise" his training still helps him think through the process. It still falls down to a Roll in game. The surgeon has a chance of failure. not op.
Points 4,5,6. I will include your quote below because it addresses your data directly or references what your data is missing. Dungeon of the mad mage is in a place called Undermountain and you say its not in a in any favored terrain. It is literally an amalgamation of underdark and mountain. Two game in game terrains. One or both terrain must apply at some point. In Water deep dragon heist, There are sequences where you go underground, visit shops, interact with creatures in the ocean and interact with humanoids from all over the word. You claim there is no favored terrain interaction. I say, Your own quote shows there were missed opportunities.
QUOTE from AarronWho (some bits removed but full quote is above in this thread) : I have one current game that I am playing a Ranger, out of the available options I would say that we have been in arctic 0%, coast 0%, desert 0%, forest 12% (probably over estimating), grassland 5%, mountain 1%, swamp 0%, or the Underdark 0.5% (2 combats, 1 in an underground tunnel and 1 in a mine). The acrobatics on the other hand that I took expertise in I couldn't count how many times I have used. So using my personal experience (the only thing I CAN base my opinions on) Deft explorer has been much more useful than NE would have been. Other games in the past were pre-Tasha's so I can't really evaluate them ....................................................................I had a Dungeon of the Mad Mage that we played for 6 or so weeks before that online group fell apart and it was entirely dungeon based, which isn't in NE. I have a game now that we just started for Waterdeep Dragon Heist which takes place (I would guess) entirely in the city of Waterdeep, so no NE value there.
Plant growth. Read the spell. You give me, finding a water source, which, doable. Ranger. Natural explorer. Not an issue.
Plant growth. First you grow your small area. Then you cast it over 8 hours to completely enrich the land. A ranger can create their favored terrain ANYWHERE.
you are 100% obsessed with only combat. And that is why frank and others are saying you have a bias and your things are subjectively skewed.
there’s more to most campaigns. Any non-one shots, than combat.
but that’s how I enjoy the game. You enjoy the game how you do. Opinions can differ. But you need to open up your mind and broaden your horizons before you can truly make a good objective comparison. And it is disingenuous to try and create new rules/abilities to “upgrade” or “replace” others... when you do not understand completely how those abilities 1. Are used. 2. Can be used. 3. Effect other party members 4. Effect the world. 5. Effect enemy actions and behaviors 6. Effect NPC actions and behaviors.
your lack of understanding plant growth alone. Also show to me. You do not understand just how terrifyingly powerful high level druids both as PCs and BBEGs can be.
a little druidcraft, a little create food and water a little plant growth and a little control weather. And a Druid can literally change the entirety of a continents landscape and ecosystem and population. Without being seen or found.
I have read the spell - have you?
"This spell channels vitality into plants within a specific area. There are two possible uses for the spell, granting either immediate or long-term benefits. If you cast this spell using 1 action, choose a point within range. All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves. You can exclude one or more areas of any size within the spell's area from being affected. If you cast this spell over 8 hours, you enrich the land. All plants in a half-mile radius centered on a point within range become enriched for 1 year. The plants yield twice the normal amount of food when harvested."
So first, you aren't CREATING anything - you are enriching WHAT IS ALREADY THERE. Second, even if it did work the way you suggest, which it 100% DOES NOT, and you do spend 8 HOURS casting and created a half-mile from your "small area" and THEN you somehow convince the DM that a half-mile of plants existing in (insert terrain type here) SOMEHOW means that you are now in a grassland or forest, maybe you can explain to me how you can travel for an hour or more in a half-mile which my slow ass can do in less than 15 minutes walking. Lets for the moment drop that and pretend that you are only using the FIRST part, the advantage on checks. So you are going to blow 8 HOURS so that for 15 minutes you can try and argue that you get advantage on checks? How does ANY of that make sense?
"you are 100% obsessed with only combat. And that is why frank and others are saying you have a bias and your things are subjectively skewed." Really, how many games have frank and other played with me? 0? Oh so they have no clue what I like. Is it fair for me say that you 100% hate combat? No it isn't and no - I am not 100% obsessed with combat, I prefer a 60-40 rp-combat split to be honest, as I have expressed many many many times my problem with NE isn't that it isn't combat focused, it is that the features are situational at best and that a lot of them add nothing that my character can't already do just as effectively.
Maybe if I was using the insane version of NE that some of these players apparently do where they can do things like be good at everything because they know how to do it in one place, or misuse spells to claim I can "make everywhere a favored terrain" then I would like it more, but having played a ranger in some form or another since 2017 90% of NE never came up in any meaningful way.
As for "It has become apparent to me. That Aaron at this point. Is not someone that can be talked to." whatever dude, I am having fun having with this discussion and would even be open to talking it out on Discord so we could get more of a dialogue going. I just think at the core you and I have VERY different understandings about how NE functions and a conversation could help flesh that out.
I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters .
I am not sure about the whole "created terrain argument", I think it distracts from the discussion. So, I'll ignore that for now.
Points of variance( I think you should consider each if they are true or false and if they would have altered your experience by changing sides)
knowledge and skills about favored terrain do not include creatures. - don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites.
There is no consideration for terrain overlap - Plants grow in multiple biomes, tracking skills are often similar in different terrains.
Imperfect knowledge won't provide a bonus. -A tree expert knows how to study trees and even if its a "cousin plant" the knowledge may be helpful but its not guaranteed. it just needs enough of a connection to provide skill Bonus. In the end, its still d20 dependent.
Creatures and plants can be displaced (non-magically) - A herbalist (or posioner) will buy plants and materials from other biomes to use locally. The rich and powerful like to show off by owning things that are not from local environments just to show off.
The dungeon of the mad mage (AKA Undermountain provides) no bonus to mountains or under-dark.
The value of harvested materials and collecting is unused. Food, ingredients for potions and cures, harvested Poisons and venoms.
" I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters ." - yeah, it would seem that some people think NE is a superpower and extrapolate abilities that it doesn't actually give you.
"don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites" Really? So every venom in the world is the same thing? No, sorry, but a rattlesnake bite in Montana isn't going to have the same cure as an egyptian Asp. Even if you argue that you can treat them the same, which you can't, the natural ingredients in one environment that can treat it will be wildly different than those in another.
Most of the other points don't really seem to focused on anything I said.
Rattlesnake desert snake
asp desert snake.
bad example to a good point.
maybe go cobra, which is more a jungle snake. To rattlesnake a desert snake.
Ok, both desert snakes, but still very different poisons treated differently, but sure being able to treat COBRA bite in the jungle does not meant you can known how to treat a RATTLESNAKE bite in the desert.
Plant growth. Read the spell. You give me, finding a water source, which, doable. Ranger. Natural explorer. Not an issue.
Plant growth. First you grow your small area. Then you cast it over 8 hours to completely enrich the land. A ranger can create their favored terrain ANYWHERE.
you are 100% obsessed with only combat. And that is why frank and others are saying you have a bias and your things are subjectively skewed.
there’s more to most campaigns. Any non-one shots, than combat.
but that’s how I enjoy the game. You enjoy the game how you do. Opinions can differ. But you need to open up your mind and broaden your horizons before you can truly make a good objective comparison. And it is disingenuous to try and create new rules/abilities to “upgrade” or “replace” others... when you do not understand completely how those abilities 1. Are used. 2. Can be used. 3. Effect other party members 4. Effect the world. 5. Effect enemy actions and behaviors 6. Effect NPC actions and behaviors.
your lack of understanding plant growth alone. Also show to me. You do not understand just how terrifyingly powerful high level druids both as PCs and BBEGs can be.
a little druidcraft, a little create food and water a little plant growth and a little control weather. And a Druid can literally change the entirety of a continents landscape and ecosystem and population. Without being seen or found.
I have read the spell - have you?
"This spell channels vitality into plants within a specific area. There are two possible uses for the spell, granting either immediate or long-term benefits. If you cast this spell using 1 action, choose a point within range. All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves. You can exclude one or more areas of any size within the spell's area from being affected. If you cast this spell over 8 hours, you enrich the land. All plants in a half-mile radius centered on a point within range become enriched for 1 year. The plants yield twice the normal amount of food when harvested."
So first, you aren't CREATING anything - you are enriching WHAT IS ALREADY THERE. Second, even if it did work the way you suggest, which it 100% DOES NOT, and you do spend 8 HOURS casting and created a half-mile from your "small area" and THEN you somehow convince the DM that a half-mile of plants existing in (insert terrain type here) SOMEHOW means that you are now in a grassland or forest, maybe you can explain to me how you can travel for an hour or more in a half-mile which my slow ass can do in less than 15 minutes walking. Lets for the moment drop that and pretend that you are only using the FIRST part, the advantage on checks. So you are going to blow 8 HOURS so that for 15 minutes you can try and argue that you get advantage on checks? How does ANY of that make sense?
"you are 100% obsessed with only combat. And that is why frank and others are saying you have a bias and your things are subjectively skewed." Really, how many games have frank and other played with me? 0? Oh so they have no clue what I like. Is it fair for me say that you 100% hate combat? No it isn't and no - I am not 100% obsessed with combat, I prefer a 60-40 rp-combat split to be honest, as I have expressed many many many times my problem with NE isn't that it isn't combat focused, it is that the features are situational at best and that a lot of them add nothing that my character can't already do just as effectively.
Maybe if I was using the insane version of NE that some of these players apparently do where they can do things like be good at everything because they know how to do it in one place, or misuse spells to claim I can "make everywhere a favored terrain" then I would like it more, but having played a ranger in some form or another since 2017 90% of NE never came up in any meaningful way.
As for "It has become apparent to me. That Aaron at this point. Is not someone that can be talked to." whatever dude, I am having fun having with this discussion and would even be open to talking it out on Discord so we could get more of a dialogue going. I just think at the core you and I have VERY different understandings about how NE functions and a conversation could help flesh that out.
First:
I specifically state, taking seeds, acorns, etc. and growing them. To create the terrain. It’s a process.
secondly. Keep going. Keep going off that. I have enriched this one area over the 8 hours. This changes the topography and landscape of this very specific area. I now take more seeds/acorns/whatever. Travel to just outside the area I just did. And repeat process.
key word: “process”
its a process. It’s not an instantaneous things. are you familiar with teleportation circle? Or Galder’s tower?
Those become permanent if done over the course of a year.
Plant growth is the same vein. Using the spell. You can create the terrain over time. You a ranger of adequate level 1 month. And in 1 month. I have turned your grasslands, entirely into a forest.
does a ranger have the same omnipotent power as a druid does in this? No. Not even close. But Rangers can create their favored terrain anywhere, following the rules, following everything raw, zero homebrew. And the only things that can stop it are the DM or the other party members railroading the pace or something to not allow it to happen. Which can and does happen.
I do agree with you that we are just having miscommunications, and have had different table experiences and different experiences with DMs, and possibly even timeframe “in game” a campaign has lasted.
Plant growth. Read the spell. You give me, finding a water source, which, doable. Ranger. Natural explorer. Not an issue.
Plant growth. First you grow your small area. Then you cast it over 8 hours to completely enrich the land. A ranger can create their favored terrain ANYWHERE.
you are 100% obsessed with only combat. And that is why frank and others are saying you have a bias and your things are subjectively skewed.
there’s more to most campaigns. Any non-one shots, than combat.
but that’s how I enjoy the game. You enjoy the game how you do. Opinions can differ. But you need to open up your mind and broaden your horizons before you can truly make a good objective comparison. And it is disingenuous to try and create new rules/abilities to “upgrade” or “replace” others... when you do not understand completely how those abilities 1. Are used. 2. Can be used. 3. Effect other party members 4. Effect the world. 5. Effect enemy actions and behaviors 6. Effect NPC actions and behaviors.
your lack of understanding plant growth alone. Also show to me. You do not understand just how terrifyingly powerful high level druids both as PCs and BBEGs can be.
a little druidcraft, a little create food and water a little plant growth and a little control weather. And a Druid can literally change the entirety of a continents landscape and ecosystem and population. Without being seen or found.
I have read the spell - have you?
"This spell channels vitality into plants within a specific area. There are two possible uses for the spell, granting either immediate or long-term benefits. If you cast this spell using 1 action, choose a point within range. All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves. You can exclude one or more areas of any size within the spell's area from being affected. If you cast this spell over 8 hours, you enrich the land. All plants in a half-mile radius centered on a point within range become enriched for 1 year. The plants yield twice the normal amount of food when harvested."
So first, you aren't CREATING anything - you are enriching WHAT IS ALREADY THERE. Second, even if it did work the way you suggest, which it 100% DOES NOT, and you do spend 8 HOURS casting and created a half-mile from your "small area" and THEN you somehow convince the DM that a half-mile of plants existing in (insert terrain type here) SOMEHOW means that you are now in a grassland or forest, maybe you can explain to me how you can travel for an hour or more in a half-mile which my slow ass can do in less than 15 minutes walking. Lets for the moment drop that and pretend that you are only using the FIRST part, the advantage on checks. So you are going to blow 8 HOURS so that for 15 minutes you can try and argue that you get advantage on checks? How does ANY of that make sense?
"you are 100% obsessed with only combat. And that is why frank and others are saying you have a bias and your things are subjectively skewed." Really, how many games have frank and other played with me? 0? Oh so they have no clue what I like. Is it fair for me say that you 100% hate combat? No it isn't and no - I am not 100% obsessed with combat, I prefer a 60-40 rp-combat split to be honest, as I have expressed many many many times my problem with NE isn't that it isn't combat focused, it is that the features are situational at best and that a lot of them add nothing that my character can't already do just as effectively.
Maybe if I was using the insane version of NE that some of these players apparently do where they can do things like be good at everything because they know how to do it in one place, or misuse spells to claim I can "make everywhere a favored terrain" then I would like it more, but having played a ranger in some form or another since 2017 90% of NE never came up in any meaningful way.
As for "It has become apparent to me. That Aaron at this point. Is not someone that can be talked to." whatever dude, I am having fun having with this discussion and would even be open to talking it out on Discord so we could get more of a dialogue going. I just think at the core you and I have VERY different understandings about how NE functions and a conversation could help flesh that out.
First:
I specifically state, taking seeds, acorns, etc. and growing them. To create the terrain. It’s a process.
secondly. Keep going. Keep going off that. I have enriched this one area over the 8 hours. This changes the topography and landscape of this very specific area. I now take more seeds/acorns/whatever. Travel to just outside the area I just did. And repeat process.
key word: “process”
its a process. It’s not an instantaneous things. are you familiar with teleportation circle? Or Galder’s tower?
Those become permanent if done over the course of a year.
Plant growth is the same vein. Using the spell. You can create the terrain over time. You a ranger of adequate level 1 month. And in 1 month. I have turned your grasslands, entirely into a forest.
does a ranger have the same omnipotent power as a druid does in this? No. Not even close. But Rangers can create their favored terrain anywhere, following the rules, following everything raw, zero homebrew. And the only things that can stop it are the DM or the other party members railroading the pace or something to not allow it to happen. Which can and does happen.
I do agree with you that we are just having miscommunications, and have had different table experiences and different experiences with DMs, and possibly even timeframe “in game” a campaign has lasted.
I’ll dm you my discord if you would like?
Even with magic and providing your own seeds, it would take more than a year to create even a small forest, assuming you have help. By yourself, more than a year and without SIGNIFICANT restructuring of the land a small forest in a desert will die. You would basically have to have a cabal of arch druids to do this. And even then the second you step out side the boundary you are no longer in your favored terrain.
I just don't see the point? We can discuss more on discord.
Plant growth can SHUT DOWN a small army of fighter and paladins. Even before rangers get land's stride.
Also, whether or not a person thinks ranger abilities are good or bad is one thing. I think we all agree that they are open to interpretation, adjudication, etc. So the question should be, are each of us making these spells and abilities work or fail, because we are all doing one or the other.
Plant growth can SHUT DOWN a small army of fighter and paladins. Even before rangers get land's stride.
Also, whether or not a person thinks ranger abilities are good or bad is one thing. I think we all agree that they are open to interpretation, adjudication, etc. So the question should be, are each of us making these spells and abilities work or fail, because we are all doing one or the other.
Yeah, as an offensive spell it is amazing. I never get to use it because I haven’t hit that level with my Ranger. I really want to play a high level game starting at 12.
Honestly, 9th-11th levels are just so good for Rangers. From 3rd-level spells like Plant Growth to your 10th-level feature (Nature's Veil or HiPS, whichever you prefer) to the scaling of Deft/Natural Explorer, and then immediately after that getting your 11th-level subclass dpr boost. It's just a constant stream of awesome.
Much as Conjure Animals is easily the best 3rd-level spell on the Ranger list, it's actually pretty low on my list of favorites. I much prefer Lightning Arrow, Nondetection, Plant Growth, Revivify, and the new Flame Stride.
Also, not enough people talk about the potentially insane combo between Nondetection and Pass Without Trace/Vanish to make you completely untraceable. Like, it may sound niche on the surface, but if the BBEG is spying on the party and cannot account for you (because they can't see you magically or track you non-magically,) they'll be ill-prepared to encounter you. Bonus points as this lets you practically waltz right through their evil lair and set up an ambush without getting noticed.
My current Rangers are level 8 and freshly level 9, but both my campaigns are on hiatus, so I haven't had the opportunity to really get into the trenches with them.
I remember my past Rangers being a ton of fun at those levels tho.
My current Rangers are level 8 and freshly level 9, but both my campaigns are on hiatus, so I haven't had the opportunity to really get into the trenches with them.
I remember my past Rangers being a ton of fun at those levels tho.
Plural? :o Are you playing different subclasses? I remember you mentioning having a Horizon Walker.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
After the fact realization:
@aaron
you said starts at +4 with expertise.
why are you making your numbers as “expertise” for deft explorer... but when you compare to natural explorer you are removing proficiency all together?
its +2, then +3 and so forth. The player would still be PROFICIENT, they just would not have EXPERTISE. Hence, the advantage is much better for a long long long long time. Even discounting the advantage is for more than just 1 specific skill.
And I am sorry, that you have never seen a straight wisdom or straight intelligence check in any campaign you have been in. But I can safely assure you. This is a real thing, that can and does happen.
Watch me on twitch
" I think your core Idea of favored terrain includes assumptions different from most NE supporters ." - yeah, it would seem that some people think NE is a superpower and extrapolate abilities that it doesn't actually give you.
"don't Try and tell me an underdark ranger wouldn't know how to treat Spider venom bites" Really? So every venom in the world is the same thing? No, sorry, but a rattlesnake bite in Montana isn't going to have the same cure as an egyptian Asp. Even if you argue that you can treat them the same, which you can't, the natural ingredients in one environment that can treat it will be wildly different than those in another.
Most of the other points don't really seem to focused on anything I said.
Rattlesnake desert snake
asp desert snake.
bad example to a good point.
maybe go cobra, which is more a jungle snake. To rattlesnake a desert snake.
Watch me on twitch
Going off 2 desert snakes.
Animal handling/nature check for desert snakes and how their venoms work
medicine check for how desert snake venoms are treated in desert regions
Investigation/nature check for which form of desert venom handling based off your medicine would work best.
it’s there. Without “giving NE superpowers”
Watch me on twitch
You can argue that DE is a "selfish replacement", I was arguing that most of the group benefits are superficial and provide no real benefit
I do like DE better, but It isn't because I like combat and nothing else, it is because I like features that actually DO something and as described, I don't think most of the group features really do anything of consequence.
"You said, "Difficult terrain doesn’t slow your group’s travel. (Nice feature but really only matters if you have a clock you are racing against, if not who cares if it takes extra time)" Right. And feather fall only matters when you are falling. Straw man argument. Silly. This is campaign saving when needed." - First, I don't think you know what a straw man argument is because you accuse me of one multiple times and none of my arguments are. A straw man is if I suggested YOU made an argument you didn't and then said why YOUR argument is wrong, but in every example it is MY argument I am making. You can disagree with it, but it isn't a straw man. Second, you didn't dispute my statement - you merely said that it can save a campaign when needed - in other words... travel time is irrelevant 99% of the time, but for that 1 time you are racing a clock you can ignore difficult terrain. I have NEVER had that happen in a campaign. Give me ANY other example as to why this would EVER matter other than a race against the clock?
"You said, "Your group can’t become lost except by magical means. (You know the best way not to get lost, have a high Survival +, say from something like Expertise)" Right. Like the ranger would have at this time. Again you are comparing something all rangers have to a character taking a specific background, a specific class, a specific subclass, and investing in two specific ability scores to do something a little better than any ranger some of the time" - Nope, I am not suggesting any of that, a single class Ranger with ANY backgroud you want who takes Deft Explorer and picks Survival for their Expertise is what I am talking about. If traveling and exploration in your campaign is important enough to worry about becoming lost, you took Survival as a skill.
"So here it looks like you don't know or follow the rules for travel. A creature can't do everything all the time. A creature can't use perception in all directions all the time" Actually ALL characters "use perception in all directions all the time" - it's called Passive Perception and it is always on, so even without this feature a Ranger tracking isn't completely senseless and while I am tracking, the other party members aren't, so they can be looking out for danger.
(big deal, how often are you traveling alone?) "How often?! How about when you are...scouting!!!" If I am scouting 40ft-100ft ahead of the party, I am not traveling alone. Just what exactly is your definition of traveling alone?
"Again you are comparing something all rangers have to a character taking a specific background, a specific class..." I am not comparing, I am demonstrating why I think the ability is useless and pointing out multiple ways in which you can achieve the same thing. The bigger point was that in MOST campaigns ration management just doesn't exist and IF you are in a campaign where it IS a big deal than you just take Goodberry and IF you fail your survival check, who cares, you all are still 100% nourished. "A ranger with the background feature can also do this...times 2!" big deal, so they can find food for 10 - the EXACT number of Goodberries the spell creates.
"No. That is not how tracking works. Again, in the DMG. Being overly generous and not as intended with a rule doesn't make the rule awful" Really? mbecause right out of the DMG...
"Adventurers sometimes choose their path by following the tracks of other creatures — or other creatures might track the adventurers! To track, one or more creatures must succeed on a Wisdom (Survival) check."
So if any character says ANY of the following the DM is gonna call for a survival check: "how many do I think there are" "how long ago do I think these tracks were made" "how big do I think this creature is" - it is going to result in some variation of the info based on a Survival roll, having the EXACT information (still dependent on a survival roll unless your position is that an NE ranger auto succeeds) is arguably not that much more valuable.
"Of all of the environments, only a few are ones where you would even need a check at all. Plains? Hills? Coast? Nope."
So let me see if I understand, my saying that you only get 3/8 and that isn't even all inclusive is being first countered with you saying that Plains, Hills, and Coast are useless to take because you don't even need a check in them? How does that make ANY sense? What does that even mean? I genuinely am baffled by that comment and really need an explanation on that, but I ameven MORE baffled by your last part...
"And again, the expertise doesn't have to be in that environment at all. Predicting weather, making a fire, hunting, tracking, or anything else related to one environment can be done in others." What? Are you telling me that because I know how to predict the weather in a swamp I can predict the weather in the desert? Because I know how to make a fire in a forest I can make one in the Underdark or a Mountain? I know how to track in the Arctic so I can track EVERYWHERE! Why even bother having the player pick a terrain if you are just going to blanket say you can do literally anything anywhere? This is by far the most non-sense argument I have ever heard. You are gonna have to explain yourself better because that sounds insane.
For ease of use we will assume that the both players have the same Wisdom modifier and we will set that at a static +3. Giving the Ranger a +5 when they are in their terrain it does give them an edge, but they get trounced outside of that.
I didn't say that "[I] have never seen a straight wisdom or straight intelligence check in any campaign you have been in" I said that I have never heard of anyone letting NE function on one.
The whole if abilities are used they are Overpowered. This Argument allows you to skip all the varied middle ground between.
The second paragraph At first glance appears to be an attack on Point one but is actually an attack on point 3 allowing your response to be framed in an exaggerated manner.
Point one was trying to show terrain included creatures. So let me clarify an underdark ranger Would have knowledge about Underdark spiders. That same ranger could track that same underdark spider if it escaped from a zoo in the desert. Why? Its because he knows its patters of behavior, He knows its smell and tracks. each might be affected by the terrain but they would still give an advantage over some one who dose't know.
Point3. Dnd flora and fauna is not varied As our universe is. There is no subdivision of skills. So, yes a spider that uses the same statblock is functionally the same spider.
There is no difference between a stone carver and a Mason. There is no difference between a surgeon and A paramedic. Both groups use the same in-game skill even though the skill sets are vastly different. And IRL, if you're in an accident, say a snake bite, and no one was around but a stonemason or a surgeon wouldn't You rather have the surgeon's advice than the stonemason. Why because even if its out of his " area of expertise" his training still helps him think through the process. It still falls down to a Roll in game. The surgeon has a chance of failure. not op.
Points 4,5,6. I will include your quote below because it addresses your data directly or references what your data is missing. Dungeon of the mad mage is in a place called Undermountain and you say its not in a in any favored terrain. It is literally an amalgamation of underdark and mountain. Two game in game terrains. One or both terrain must apply at some point. In Water deep dragon heist, There are sequences where you go underground, visit shops, interact with creatures in the ocean and interact with humanoids from all over the word. You claim there is no favored terrain interaction. I say, Your own quote shows there were missed opportunities.
QUOTE from AarronWho (some bits removed but full quote is above in this thread) : I have one current game that I am playing a Ranger, out of the available options I would say that we have been in arctic 0%, coast 0%, desert 0%, forest 12% (probably over estimating), grassland 5%, mountain 1%, swamp 0%, or the Underdark 0.5% (2 combats, 1 in an underground tunnel and 1 in a mine). The acrobatics on the other hand that I took expertise in I couldn't count how many times I have used. So using my personal experience (the only thing I CAN base my opinions on) Deft explorer has been much more useful than NE would have been. Other games in the past were pre-Tasha's so I can't really evaluate them ....................................................................I had a Dungeon of the Mad Mage that we played for 6 or so weeks before that online group fell apart and it was entirely dungeon based, which isn't in NE. I have a game now that we just started for Waterdeep Dragon Heist which takes place (I would guess) entirely in the city of Waterdeep, so no NE value there.
I have read the spell - have you?
"This spell channels vitality into plants within a specific area. There are two possible uses for the spell, granting either immediate or long-term benefits.
If you cast this spell using 1 action, choose a point within range. All normal plants in a 100-foot radius centered on that point become thick and overgrown. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.
You can exclude one or more areas of any size within the spell's area from being affected.
If you cast this spell over 8 hours, you enrich the land. All plants in a half-mile radius centered on a point within range become enriched for 1 year. The plants yield twice the normal amount of food when harvested."
So first, you aren't CREATING anything - you are enriching WHAT IS ALREADY THERE. Second, even if it did work the way you suggest, which it 100% DOES NOT, and you do spend 8 HOURS casting and created a half-mile from your "small area" and THEN you somehow convince the DM that a half-mile of plants existing in (insert terrain type here) SOMEHOW means that you are now in a grassland or forest, maybe you can explain to me how you can travel for an hour or more in a half-mile which my slow ass can do in less than 15 minutes walking.
Lets for the moment drop that and pretend that you are only using the FIRST part, the advantage on checks. So you are going to blow 8 HOURS so that for 15 minutes you can try and argue that you get advantage on checks? How does ANY of that make sense?
"you are 100% obsessed with only combat. And that is why frank and others are saying you have a bias and your things are subjectively skewed." Really, how many games have frank and other played with me? 0? Oh so they have no clue what I like. Is it fair for me say that you 100% hate combat? No it isn't and no - I am not 100% obsessed with combat, I prefer a 60-40 rp-combat split to be honest, as I have expressed many many many times my problem with NE isn't that it isn't combat focused, it is that the features are situational at best and that a lot of them add nothing that my character can't already do just as effectively.
Maybe if I was using the insane version of NE that some of these players apparently do where they can do things like be good at everything because they know how to do it in one place, or misuse spells to claim I can "make everywhere a favored terrain" then I would like it more, but having played a ranger in some form or another since 2017 90% of NE never came up in any meaningful way.
As for "It has become apparent to me. That Aaron at this point. Is not someone that can be talked to." whatever dude, I am having fun having with this discussion and would even be open to talking it out on Discord so we could get more of a dialogue going. I just think at the core you and I have VERY different understandings about how NE functions and a conversation could help flesh that out.
Ok, both desert snakes, but still very different poisons treated differently, but sure being able to treat COBRA bite in the jungle does not meant you can known how to treat a RATTLESNAKE bite in the desert.
First:
I specifically state, taking seeds, acorns, etc. and growing them. To create the terrain. It’s a process.
secondly. Keep going. Keep going off that. I have enriched this one area over the 8 hours. This changes the topography and landscape of this very specific area. I now take more seeds/acorns/whatever. Travel to just outside the area I just did. And repeat process.
key word: “process”
its a process. It’s not an instantaneous things. are you familiar with teleportation circle? Or Galder’s tower?
Those become permanent if done over the course of a year.
Plant growth is the same vein. Using the spell. You can create the terrain over time. You a ranger of adequate level 1 month. And in 1 month. I have turned your grasslands, entirely into a forest.
does a ranger have the same omnipotent power as a druid does in this? No. Not even close. But Rangers can create their favored terrain anywhere, following the rules, following everything raw, zero homebrew. And the only things that can stop it are the DM or the other party members railroading the pace or something to not allow it to happen. Which can and does happen.
I do agree with you that we are just having miscommunications, and have had different table experiences and different experiences with DMs, and possibly even timeframe “in game” a campaign has lasted.
I’ll dm you my discord if you would like?
Watch me on twitch
Even with magic and providing your own seeds, it would take more than a year to create even a small forest, assuming you have help. By yourself, more than a year and without SIGNIFICANT restructuring of the land a small forest in a desert will die. You would basically have to have a cabal of arch druids to do this. And even then the second you step out side the boundary you are no longer in your favored terrain.
I just don't see the point? We can discuss more on discord.
Plant growth can SHUT DOWN a small army of fighter and paladins. Even before rangers get land's stride.
Also, whether or not a person thinks ranger abilities are good or bad is one thing. I think we all agree that they are open to interpretation, adjudication, etc. So the question should be, are each of us making these spells and abilities work or fail, because we are all doing one or the other.
Yeah, as an offensive spell it is amazing. I never get to use it because I haven’t hit that level with my Ranger. I really want to play a high level game starting at 12.
Level 9 rangers are the shit!
Honestly, 9th-11th levels are just so good for Rangers. From 3rd-level spells like Plant Growth to your 10th-level feature (Nature's Veil or HiPS, whichever you prefer) to the scaling of Deft/Natural Explorer, and then immediately after that getting your 11th-level subclass dpr boost. It's just a constant stream of awesome.
Yes!
Hail of thorns really comes into it's own as a level three upcast too! Two targets hit does great damage. Three targets hit does REALLY great damage!
Does conjure animals go without saying? That's a given, right?
Much as Conjure Animals is easily the best 3rd-level spell on the Ranger list, it's actually pretty low on my list of favorites. I much prefer Lightning Arrow, Nondetection, Plant Growth, Revivify, and the new Flame Stride.
Also, not enough people talk about the potentially insane combo between Nondetection and Pass Without Trace/Vanish to make you completely untraceable. Like, it may sound niche on the surface, but if the BBEG is spying on the party and cannot account for you (because they can't see you magically or track you non-magically,) they'll be ill-prepared to encounter you. Bonus points as this lets you practically waltz right through their evil lair and set up an ambush without getting noticed.
I can't wait to hit those higher levels in Ranger as well. But still lvl 4. lol
My current Rangers are level 8 and freshly level 9, but both my campaigns are on hiatus, so I haven't had the opportunity to really get into the trenches with them.
I remember my past Rangers being a ton of fun at those levels tho.
Plural? :o Are you playing different subclasses? I remember you mentioning having a Horizon Walker.