I've personally folded the Two Weapon Fighting into regular Attack actions. Each of the classical "duel wielding" classes has something awesome to do with their bonus action - rogues want to Cunning Action, bards have their Inspiring Words, fighters have Second Wind as well as several subclass features, and rangers... well, yeah.
I don't like robbing people of their class features just because they want to make a duel wielding character, and that's exactly what it feels like is happening here. (edit) At least to me, it does.
I like that a lot (obvi). Also want to mention that it isn't once per combat that a two weapon ranger monster slayer has to spend bonus actions for 2 rounds to transfer hunters mark and slayer's prey - but for every target. So if you run into a bunch of creatures it is also a factor then.
But thanks Mephista!
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Heaven doth with us as we with torches do, not light them for themselves.
The basic difference is (assuming attacks hit and 18 Dex)
Archer with Monster Slayer with Extra Attack
Round 1: 2d8 + 2d6 + 8
Round 2: 2d8 + 3d6 (Max) + 8
TWF with Monster Slayer with Extra Attack (Shortswords)
Round 1: 4d6 + 8
Round 2: 5d6 + 8
Round 3: 7d6 (3 Attacks at Max) + 12
I think the point here being that this sometimes is not easy to do for the TWF. Ranges attacks are sacrificed for a larger max damage in the 3rd round of combat, but this assumes the target does not go down. This particular character will do well against a huge sack of hit points that won’t go down, but weaker targets it suffers because if the target dies early it has to start its bonus action economy all over. Rangers in general suffer from TWF in this way, not just the Monster Slayer, and why the Hunter Subclass is the fastest damage dealer, since Colossus Slayer activates without this restriction.
I've personally folded the Two Weapon Fighting into regular Attack actions. Each of the classical "duel wielding" classes has something awesome to do with their bonus action - rogues want to Cunning Action, bards have their Inspiring Words, fighters have Second Wind as well as several subclass features, and rangers... well, yeah.
I don't like robbing people of their class features just because they want to make a duel wielding character, and that's exactly what it feels like is happening here. (edit) At least to me, it does.
I feel like its a give and take, one less attack to do something else that might be more useful at the time, a trade-off I hate setting up "have your cake and eat it too" situations. That feels worse to me in the long run, they don't have to make that decision to lower immediate damage for some other boon. Sometimes it is more worthwhile to deal less damage to get away from an enemy safely, or to give your team mate a future benefit. Personal opinion.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
In my experience, its not give-and-take. Its just flat out "don't bother with duel wielding, not worth it." Too many problems associated with it make it less fun, and non-TWF options tend to be just as much damage.
So, if the damage is basically the same, and you don't use your bonus action, no weapon-drawing issues, no weapon-attunement issues... where's the take part? You're giving up special actions and advantages in exchange for? What exactly?
A chance at a small amount of extra damage. I said trade some damage for a utility ability. Sometimes it shouldn't be worth the extra damage, they might want to use something else utility based instead, like cunning action. There should be a choice.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The trade off internally makes sense from a balance perspective. TWF is another bonus action option, and allows for extra damage in some circumstances.
The problem is that TWF probably is not worth the trade off compared to other fighting styles for most Rangers. They are giving up the ability to consistently hit from range for Archery or the +AC from having the shield. The question in terms of balance is, “Is it worth having to be in melee only without any type of AC bonus to do slight extra damage in the 3rd round of combat if it’s the same creature from round 1 and 2?”
I would say that for Monster Slayers and Horizon Walkers, it’s a definite no. Hunters and Beast Masters get way more use out of it as they do not have a second round bonus action tying up their economy. Gloom Stalkers don’t seem to be impeded either and it seems to build stability into their damage since their first round will generally be the strongest, and their bonus action is also free.
A chance at a small amount of extra damage. I said trade some damage for a utility ability. Sometimes it shouldn't be worth the extra damage, they might want to use something else utility based instead, like cunning action. There should be a choice.
But that's just it. Most of the time, there isn't even that small amount of damage. You're dealing just as much damage without TWFing.
Per the PHB, the Ranger gets an Extra Attack starting with this level.
Per the Fighting Style chosen, the Ranger may apply the ability modifier to damage done with the weapon in his/her off-hand.
Per the Dual Wielder Feat, s/he is not limited to light one-handed melee weapons.
Assuming s/he's using his bonus action to attack (not cast a spell or cantrip or use a Ranger feature), the character rolls attack twice for the weapon in the favored hand, and once for the weapon in the off-hand, yes?
What I am driving at is that even with the feat and fighting style, the Extra Attack feature is not granting the Ranger four attacks per round at 5th level. Is that correct?
If you take the Hunter feature Horde Breaker, you could make 4 attacks on your turn. An opportunity attack with your reaction would make 5 attacks in a round.
Horde Breaker.Once on each of your turns when you make a weapon attack, you can make another attack with the same weapon against a different creature that is within 5 feet of the original target and within range of your weapon.
I don't read that as "another Attack Action." If the same build in my previous post had this feature, that would be four attacks by my ruling, not five.
Yeah, TWF and Ranger don't play as nice as TWF and other classes do. I also find Monster Slayer to be odd, the Slayers Prey isn't a spelless Hunters Mark because it only happens once and it seems wonky to have to add as a bonus action, I would personally homebrew it so that
"Anytime you cast Hunter's Mark on a creature, in addition to the normal effects, that creature becomes your prey..." followed by the benefits of Slayers Prey
I reread the forum and I think people are forgetting that the Monster Slayer's ability Slayer's Prey as well as the Hunter's Colossus Slayer ability are both once a turn. Colossus Slayer +1d8 and Slayer's Prey +1d6 each to a single attack a turn. Colossus Slayer benefits from not requiring anything other then the target being injured. Slayer's Prey eats a Bonus Action. Note: Attack of Opportunity happen on a new Turn and so apply.
Two weapon fighting is every single turn. Two Weapon Fighting might be weaker against weak enemies, because if you can one-shot each opponent then you should use Two Weapon Fighting instead. If they can stand up to a single round of combat, then using your abilities then two weapon fighting IS a good idea. Also as I pointed out before, without the Feat it takes 2 turns to ready two weapons.
The rules for the attack action, extra attack and Two-Weapon Fighting do not specify which weapon actualy makes the attacks. I.e. one could elect to swing with left then right or two lefts. Or any combination. The only caveat is the bonus attack must be done with a different weapon than one that made an attack during the attack action . Favored and offhand are terms that are no longer used. To my knowledge.
A baseline ranger's average damage (assuming all attacks hit and average damage rolls) output (levels 8 to 19) is around 26 for a longbow (using the archery fighting style and hunter's mark) and 30 for a rapier (using the dueling fighting style and hunter's mark).
The two-weapon fighting style works very well for the fighter, rogue, paladin, and barbarian classes. It's only the ranger class that has so much clunky interaction with the bonus action.
I would suggest still taking the dueling fighting style for a ranger that wants to fight with two weapons. Hear me out!
Only the ranger and fighter have the two-weapon fighting style. Rogues two-weapon fight for an extra chance at sneak attack damage, barbarians use it for more rage damage, and paladins use it for more chances at smites and/or extra improved divine smite triggers. Many of the ranger's damage spells are reliant on a thrown weapon or ammunition fired from a ranged weapon (like the lightning arrow of hail of thorns spells). A ranger with the dueling fighting style and a short sword in one hand would do about 28 damage on average using just that one weapon and hunter's mark. However, this same ranger has more options! 1. If fighting a small mob of enemies, the ranger can use one of the attacks from extra attack feature to throw a dagger (free item interaction to draw with the empty hand) with the lightning arrow of hail of thorns spell cast as a bonus action to do area of effect damage to multiple enemies. 2. If fighting one large boss type enemy with the hunter's mark spell still cast on it, the ranger can draw a dagger in their empty hand (free item interaction) making a 3rd attack for a little bit of dagger damage but some extra hunter's mark damage as well, bringing that specific turn's average damage up to 34! That Dagger could be thrown, stuck in the target and let go of after a melee attack (free action), or dropped (free action), all allowing for the same options for the next turn.
Technically the ranger isn't using the two-weapon fighting style, but they would be fighting with two weapons! They would be a melee fighter but with some added short range ranged AoE attack options, and if there is just one big boss monster they have the ability to focus in and get some pumped damage. Many players multiclass with rangers anyway at some point, especially hunters after level 5-9. If you do happen to multiclass into one level of fighter and have a second fighting style to take, and don't take archery, then take two-weapon fighting and get an extra ability score modifier damage bump when you are fighting that big boss monster (39 instead of 34).
So you have a two weapon ranger. That weapon in your other hand is just a shiny piece of metal if you are a horizon walker because you can't ever use a bonus action to activate your horizon walker ability or cast a bonus action spell. So the hose the ranger with everything he can use with being a bonus action. And give the fighter all kinds of free actions it can use and still use both weapons
I've personally folded the Two Weapon Fighting into regular Attack actions. Each of the classical "duel wielding" classes has something awesome to do with their bonus action - rogues want to Cunning Action, bards have their Inspiring Words, fighters have Second Wind as well as several subclass features, and rangers... well, yeah.
I don't like robbing people of their class features just because they want to make a duel wielding character, and that's exactly what it feels like is happening here. (edit) At least to me, it does.
I like that a lot (obvi). Also want to mention that it isn't once per combat that a two weapon ranger monster slayer has to spend bonus actions for 2 rounds to transfer hunters mark and slayer's prey - but for every target. So if you run into a bunch of creatures it is also a factor then.
But thanks Mephista!
Heaven doth with us as we with torches do, not light them for themselves.
The basic difference is (assuming attacks hit and 18 Dex)
Archer with Monster Slayer with Extra Attack
Round 1: 2d8 + 2d6 + 8
Round 2: 2d8 + 3d6 (Max) + 8
TWF with Monster Slayer with Extra Attack (Shortswords)
Round 1: 4d6 + 8
Round 2: 5d6 + 8
Round 3: 7d6 (3 Attacks at Max) + 12
I think the point here being that this sometimes is not easy to do for the TWF. Ranges attacks are sacrificed for a larger max damage in the 3rd round of combat, but this assumes the target does not go down. This particular character will do well against a huge sack of hit points that won’t go down, but weaker targets it suffers because if the target dies early it has to start its bonus action economy all over. Rangers in general suffer from TWF in this way, not just the Monster Slayer, and why the Hunter Subclass is the fastest damage dealer, since Colossus Slayer activates without this restriction.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
In my experience, its not give-and-take. Its just flat out "don't bother with duel wielding, not worth it." Too many problems associated with it make it less fun, and non-TWF options tend to be just as much damage.
So, if the damage is basically the same, and you don't use your bonus action, no weapon-drawing issues, no weapon-attunement issues... where's the take part? You're giving up special actions and advantages in exchange for? What exactly?
A chance at a small amount of extra damage. I said trade some damage for a utility ability. Sometimes it shouldn't be worth the extra damage, they might want to use something else utility based instead, like cunning action. There should be a choice.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
The trade off internally makes sense from a balance perspective. TWF is another bonus action option, and allows for extra damage in some circumstances.
The problem is that TWF probably is not worth the trade off compared to other fighting styles for most Rangers. They are giving up the ability to consistently hit from range for Archery or the +AC from having the shield. The question in terms of balance is, “Is it worth having to be in melee only without any type of AC bonus to do slight extra damage in the 3rd round of combat if it’s the same creature from round 1 and 2?”
I would say that for Monster Slayers and Horizon Walkers, it’s a definite no. Hunters and Beast Masters get way more use out of it as they do not have a second round bonus action tying up their economy. Gloom Stalkers don’t seem to be impeded either and it seems to build stability into their damage since their first round will generally be the strongest, and their bonus action is also free.
Read this thread and a few others on TWF. Would like confirmation or correction on how I understand this would work with the following build:
LVL 5 Ranger, Hunter, Two Weapon Fighting Style, Dual Wielder Feat
Per the PHB, the Ranger gets an Extra Attack starting with this level.
Per the Fighting Style chosen, the Ranger may apply the ability modifier to damage done with the weapon in his/her off-hand.
Per the Dual Wielder Feat, s/he is not limited to light one-handed melee weapons.
Assuming s/he's using his bonus action to attack (not cast a spell or cantrip or use a Ranger feature), the character rolls attack twice for the weapon in the favored hand, and once for the weapon in the off-hand, yes?
What I am driving at is that even with the feat and fighting style, the Extra Attack feature is not granting the Ranger four attacks per round at 5th level. Is that correct?
If you take the Hunter feature Horde Breaker, you could make 4 attacks on your turn. An opportunity attack with your reaction would make 5 attacks in a round.
Hmmm.
I don't read that as "another Attack Action." If the same build in my previous post had this feature, that would be four attacks by my ruling, not five.
1. Attack action
2. Extra attack (5th level ranger)
3. Bonus attack (TWF)
4. Horde breaker attack against another target within 5 ft
End turn
5. Possible attack of opportunity
End round
Ah! I missed your wording in the previous post. Yep. Agreed with all of that.
Yeah, TWF and Ranger don't play as nice as TWF and other classes do. I also find Monster Slayer to be odd, the Slayers Prey isn't a spelless Hunters Mark because it only happens once and it seems wonky to have to add as a bonus action, I would personally homebrew it so that
"Anytime you cast Hunter's Mark on a creature, in addition to the normal effects, that creature becomes your prey..." followed by the benefits of Slayers Prey
I reread the forum and I think people are forgetting that the Monster Slayer's ability Slayer's Prey as well as the Hunter's Colossus Slayer ability are both once a turn.
Colossus Slayer +1d8 and Slayer's Prey +1d6 each to a single attack a turn.
Colossus Slayer benefits from not requiring anything other then the target being injured. Slayer's Prey eats a Bonus Action.
Note: Attack of Opportunity happen on a new Turn and so apply.
Two weapon fighting is every single turn.
Two Weapon Fighting might be weaker against weak enemies, because if you can one-shot each opponent then you should use Two Weapon Fighting instead.
If they can stand up to a single round of combat, then using your abilities then two weapon fighting IS a good idea. Also as I pointed out before, without the Feat it takes 2 turns to ready two weapons.
The rules for the attack action, extra attack and Two-Weapon Fighting do not specify which weapon actualy makes the attacks. I.e. one could elect to swing with left then right or two lefts. Or any combination. The only caveat is the bonus attack must be done with a different weapon than one that made an attack during the attack action . Favored and offhand are terms that are no longer used. To my knowledge.
Jesus Saves!... Everyone else takes damage.
A baseline ranger's average damage (assuming all attacks hit and average damage rolls) output (levels 8 to 19) is around 26 for a longbow (using the archery fighting style and hunter's mark) and 30 for a rapier (using the dueling fighting style and hunter's mark).
The two-weapon fighting style works very well for the fighter, rogue, paladin, and barbarian classes. It's only the ranger class that has so much clunky interaction with the bonus action.
I would suggest still taking the dueling fighting style for a ranger that wants to fight with two weapons. Hear me out!
Only the ranger and fighter have the two-weapon fighting style. Rogues two-weapon fight for an extra chance at sneak attack damage, barbarians use it for more rage damage, and paladins use it for more chances at smites and/or extra improved divine smite triggers. Many of the ranger's damage spells are reliant on a thrown weapon or ammunition fired from a ranged weapon (like the lightning arrow of hail of thorns spells). A ranger with the dueling fighting style and a short sword in one hand would do about 28 damage on average using just that one weapon and hunter's mark. However, this same ranger has more options! 1. If fighting a small mob of enemies, the ranger can use one of the attacks from extra attack feature to throw a dagger (free item interaction to draw with the empty hand) with the lightning arrow of hail of thorns spell cast as a bonus action to do area of effect damage to multiple enemies. 2. If fighting one large boss type enemy with the hunter's mark spell still cast on it, the ranger can draw a dagger in their empty hand (free item interaction) making a 3rd attack for a little bit of dagger damage but some extra hunter's mark damage as well, bringing that specific turn's average damage up to 34! That Dagger could be thrown, stuck in the target and let go of after a melee attack (free action), or dropped (free action), all allowing for the same options for the next turn.
Technically the ranger isn't using the two-weapon fighting style, but they would be fighting with two weapons! They would be a melee fighter but with some added short range ranged AoE attack options, and if there is just one big boss monster they have the ability to focus in and get some pumped damage. Many players multiclass with rangers anyway at some point, especially hunters after level 5-9. If you do happen to multiclass into one level of fighter and have a second fighting style to take, and don't take archery, then take two-weapon fighting and get an extra ability score modifier damage bump when you are fighting that big boss monster (39 instead of 34).
So you have a two weapon ranger. That weapon in your other hand is just a shiny piece of metal if you are a horizon walker because you can't ever use a bonus action to activate your horizon walker ability or cast a bonus action spell. So the hose the ranger with everything he can use with being a bonus action. And give the fighter all kinds of free actions it can use and still use both weapons
Plus, hunter's get that free (no action required) colossus slayer d8 of damage.
I'm taking about spells and the horizon walker class. Still hose the two weapon fighting style all together