Just take another concentration spell that isn’t hunter’s mark. Spike growth seems popular. After a round one casting, rounds 2+ the ranger is “loosing” 2d6 each round after because the mark isn’t up. Well, when not using hunter’s mark two weapon fighters deal more damage than the others styles.
If you factor in CBE archery is the clear winner and PAM makes dueling better as well but in a featless game TWF for ranger does make sense
Yes. Although in each instance you’re set back an ASI, so behind the pack a bit in the dexterity/strength department. And the PAM (my favorite for a hunter) takes you down the strength route only, not a fan favorite I hear.
With two weapon fighting nerfed I’m beginning to really look at some of the other fighting styles and seeing some interesting possibilities. A wood elf ranger with the wood elf magic and the Druid warrior style is looking pretty good. Take shillelagh for your cantrip with wood elf magic and you have a magic weapon right from the start with your quarterstaff. Add magic stone and primal savagery with the style and use a sling instead of a bow and you have magic ranged weaponry as well as a 1D10 acid attack if he doesn’t use the staff - all at L2.
With Tasha's Beast Master pets scaling their attack rolls off of your Spell Attack Modifier, you can actually do a pretty solid SAD build with this.
Just take another concentration spell that isn’t hunter’s mark. Spike growth seems popular. After a round one casting, rounds 2+ the ranger is “loosing” 2d6 each round after because the mark isn’t up. Well, when not using hunter’s mark two weapon fighters deal more damage than the others styles.
If you factor in CBE archery is the clear winner and PAM makes dueling better as well but in a featless game TWF for ranger does make sense
Yes. Although I’m each instance your setback an ASI so behind the pack a bit in the dexterity/strength department. And the PAM (my favorite for a hunter) takes down the strength route only, not a fan favorite I hear.
Even with the setback they are firmly ahead...thanks to Archery style for CBE its pretty easily so.
Also V.human exists (and now custom lineage) with free feat at 1st level that gives you all the benefit with no cost!
Granted some might be a stretch but they provide benefits that rangers could make good use of and using them might lead to some interesting roleplay that is not just cutting down hordes of badguys.
Just take another concentration spell that isn’t hunter’s mark. Spike growth seems popular. After a round one casting, rounds 2+ the ranger is “loosing” 2d6 each round after because the mark isn’t up. Well, when not using hunter’s mark two weapon fighters deal more damage than the others styles.
If you factor in CBE archery is the clear winner and PAM makes dueling better as well but in a featless game TWF for ranger does make sense
Yes. Although I’m each instance your setback an ASI so behind the pack a bit in the dexterity/strength department. And the PAM (my favorite for a hunter) takes down the strength route only, not a fan favorite I hear.
Even with the setback they are firmly ahead...thanks to Archery style for CBE its pretty easily so.
Also V.human exists (and now custom lineage) with free feat at 1st level that gives you all the benefit with no cost!
A couple of things, 1) realistically everyone is always capable of two weapon fighting so as long as the other concentration spell is up you can use a bonus action for a second attack no feat or attack style needed, might not do as much damage but it’s something. 2) sorry I don’t know the acronyms CBE and PAM lesson please? 3 if you can get your DM to give you a little leeway in rolling you don’t need the stat boosts so much and can use most of the ASIs on feats which make for more interesting roleplay. Using DDB it’s fairly easy - my rule is that you take the first set of rolls that nothing below a 10 then I might make an exception if you are going with a really MAD character and need that 4 th 13.
Bless is a great choice for Fey though...likely the best option overall especially if you have sharpshooter to help further offset that attack penalty.
Bless is awesome - I couldn't have that and Hunter's Mark going at the same time so I left it to the cleric. But definitely one of the best spells in the game and probably the best as a standard Fey touched choice.
One thing I found is once the cleric has access to spirit guardians at 5 the bless train stops rolling. The paladin and the ranger with their half casting make it a little more workable since there may not be better options. Both Bless and Faerie Fire are wonderfully awesome low level spells to ruin a DM's day.
Unfortunately trusting the paladin to use his slots to cast spells doesn't really work, because they burn them up in the first encounter with smites.
The iconic ranger is either would invest in either the Archery or Two Weapon Fighting styles. And TWF, while generally an inferior option, can be quite effective for rangers due to how hunter's mark works. That said, the new options from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything allow the Beast Masters to be practically single-ability dependent as a melee combatant. Their biggest priority is Wisdom, with Dexterity and Constitution being secondary.
Archery
Crossbow Expert (You're proficient with hand and heavy crossbows, but they're rarely magical and don't benefit from bracers of archery so YMMV)
Sharpshooter (If you can reliably get advantage, this and swift quiver will be amazing)
Beast Master
Fighting Initiate (likely Defense or Dueling, but you'll want to pick up Druidic Warrior at 2nd level for [Tooltip Not Found])
Medium Armor Master (up to 20 AC, with half plate and a shield, and no disadvantage on Stealth checks with your companion)
Mounted Combatant (if you're Small and have a Medium companion you can ride)
Shield Master (
War Caster (you're going to have a shield and wooden staff most of the time, so this will help juggle those spellcasting components, and the advantage for saving throws will be a godsend with you in melee)
Two Weapon Fighting
Dual Wielder (bigger weapons and, while odds are you won't attack with both the first round of combat, +1 AC is +1 AC)
General Feats
Athlete
Fey Touched
Mage Slayer (if you're up close, probably best with a Monster Slayer)
Magic Initiate: Druid (you have the Wisdom to qualify, and more spellcasting is always a good thing)
Observant (+1 Int or Wis, and both skills are on your class' skill list)
Resilient: Constitution or Wisdom (only if you have an odd score, if Con is even then War Caster)
Ritual Caster: Druid (see Magic Initiate)
Skill Expert (all around lots of good bonuses)
Skilled (synergizes with Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer)
I'd say on a dual wielder with Shillelagh. There's some room for Fighting Initiate: Two Weapon Fighting Style and the Metamagic Adept feat. While I wouldn't necessarily be useable all the time. it could make a pair of clubs interesting weapons to wield through twinning shillelagh. Though You'd probably want to pick up at least one of those through a 1st level feat possibility.
I admit it's kind of niche and not necessarily always usable. But it is a combination that somebody could have fun with and makes two weapon fighting potentially a bit less MAD.
Rather than dual wielded, pole arm master with a quarterstaff - you get a bonus action attack with the other end - normally for 1D4 but if you have shillelagh up it should supersede and you get 2 attacks for 1D8. And both act as magic weapons for resistances. Dual clubs might mean you have to cast shillelagh twice.
Rather than dual wielded, pole arm master with a quarterstaff - you get a bonus action attack with the other end - normally for 1D4 but if you have shillelagh up it should supersede and you get 2 attacks for 1D8. And both act as magic weapons for resistances. Dual clubs might mean you have to cast shillelagh twice.
This is why I said the Metamagic Adept to twin it. Because you can't just cast it twice. Which is where the downside is at because the spells duration is relatively short and you'd only have a couple times you could do it a day. Then you'd have to stick with it just being on one weapon. So it's not perfect. But it is an option.
And i'm sorry but I just got to say it. PAM is just plain boring and over hyped. I'm not saying that it's not pretty good. But it's not this be all and end all that people make it out to be.
AGREED THE 1D4 is from the feat but the 1D8 is from the shillelagh spell which applies to the entire weapon superseding the feat damage as long as the spell is up. Yes rangers have a lot of ways to use their bonus actions this is specifically a way to get 2 weapon fighting without taking the fighting style or the feat and still get the damage of dual wielding 2 magic long swords when you want it. The only thing you lose is the +1 to AC.
Probably the ideal place to do this is with a wood elf ranger. The wood elf magic racial feat grants the cantrip (shillelagh) its a bonus action spell, lasts for a fight (1 min) no concentration required. That leaves you with 9 bonus actions if the fight lasts 10 rounds. Until you can get the pole arm master feat you are stuck with the single attack and the bonus actions are available for other uses. With the feat you have options, you can use the first 2 for shillelagh and hunters mark or you could have taken the archery style and use this combo as a backup when forced into melee. At L5 when some clown closes with you it may be a huge surprise to them to have you caste both spells (HM as an action and Shil. as a bonus action, then attack for 1D8+1D6 all in the same round and then wail the next rounds with 3 attacks each for 1D8+1D6+stat bonus.
My personal favourites, not limited to Rangers necessarily:
Skill Expert: I absolutely love this feat, it just brings so much to your character, you can plug any skill gaps you/the party might have, you can really lean into a skill to get that coveted expertise, plus you get to increase an ability of your choice. Simply amazing.
Skilled: Also a favourite, synergises really well with natural explorer, and just gives you more breadth of skills, which is always welcome. I also love to choose tool proficiencies with this, but mileage at your table may vary.
Second tier:
Keen Mind: I really like the roleplay aspects that this brings, the ability to accurately recall things from the past month has great potential to mix in with skills like investigation, plus the intelligence helps with all your intelligence skills if you've planned for it.
Linguist: I know that knowing lots of languages is made redundant by certain spells etc, but I love having access to more languages, and the cipher aspects speaks to me on a primal level.
Observant: Who doesn't like passive buffs to perception and investigation? Who doesn't like wisdom or intelligence increases? The ability to read lips too, provided you know the language (see Linguist) is laden with possibility.
Telepathic: There are so many ways you can use this, not only for communicating intentions to allies, but for instilling fear/confusion in enemies, they don't necessarily even need to understand it if you're just doing it to put them off.
Third tier (want to try):
Telekinetic: Really stands out to me as something I could see myself using in future. I really like the shove feature, especially as it has potential to move an ally out of a threatening situation, which is always super satisfying.
Actor: Especially useful on a face (Fey Wanderer anyone?) if you're trying to infiltrate areas, just has excellent roleplay possibilities.
Chef: I love tool proficiencies, and this just looks super fun.
Athlete: I love climbing and jumping, so this is a very nice feat.
I'm sure there are probably one or two I've missed, but those are all in my current favourites, or things I want to try at some stage.
AGREED THE 1D4 is from the feat but the 1D8 is from the shillelagh spell which applies to the entire weapon superseding the feat damage as long as the spell is up. Yes rangers have a lot of ways to use their bonus actions this is specifically a way to get 2 weapon fighting without taking the fighting style or the feat and still get the damage of dual wielding 2 magic long swords when you want it. The only thing you lose is the +1 to AC.
There is some issue over specificity here. Shillelagh may apply to the weapon. But the feat over-rides anything the weapon does to make the 1d4 attack. So there is an argument to be made that shillelagh would not count for the bonus action attack since it's generated specifically by the Feat and not the weapon and only flavored as the other end of the weapon in hand.
Also I noticed something about PAM. I hadn't looked at this feat in a long time and had made a couple of assumptions based upon the way that others used it (particularly in arguments against various bonus action attacks not being that much better). Ones I think a lot of people are likely making. PAM does not actually say that any modifier gets applied to the damage. Only that the ability modifier to attacking with it is the same one used for the Primary attack. Meaning that PAM does not do nearly as much damage as many argue that it does. meaning full BA attacks that apply modifiers to damage are much better than the BA attack that PAM does as far as damage goes. This is important because there isn't anything that gives this effect to PAM like the fighting style does to Two Weapon Fighting. But also, on a brighter note, PAM does not actually care what ability modifier is actually used for it's attack. Only that it matches the same one used for the primary attack. This is good in the matter of Shillelagh if it can't modify the damage because even if it doesn't increase the damage it still does use Wisdom as it's attack still because that matches the primary attack that activated it.
The wording in it and making the distinction about the ability modifier suggests that mechanically the weapon is not particularly influencing the bonus action attack with PAM. The implication run a bit deeper really with that suggestion that I don't think we need to get into. But regardless of them. PAM would indeed be missing a decent chunk of damage in comparison to 2 weapon fighting as well as the +1 AC on it's bonus action attack. Shillelagh would only mitigate some of that damage loss at best. Against a club without Shillelagh it may work out somewhat close overall. But against bigger weapons though it's not really that close.
I read the two somewhat differently. A quarter staff normally does 1 D6, used 2 handed for 1 attack it does 1D8 plus the stat bonus. PAM gives it a bonus action second attack doing 1D4, I don’t see anything in it that says the stat bonus doesn’t apply so it should. Then the shillelagh spell is applied rendering the entire quarter staff a magic weapon and giving it a damage value of 1D8 whether it is wielded one or two handed this at least suggests that so long as shillelagh is up when it hits it does 1D8 rendering the bonus action strike a 1D8. The spell says you can use wisdom instead of strength but it doesn’t say you must so you can use either and get the stat bonus as extra damage. As I see it the spell overwrites the feat as it is the most specific where the feat is more general. Now this could well be a case of one of us seeing it as anything not specifically allowed is forbidden while the other is reading it as anything not specifically forbidden is allowed. Still it’s a good discussion.
A different question I keep seeing folks saying that CBE makes the archery style superior, but when I look at it the only thing I see that has any application to the long or short bow is the fact that you don’t get disadvantage if a foe is up close and personal. No bonus action damage or attacks, no extra damage, etc. can someone please explain why you feel it is so useful. To me it seems a waste of a precious ASI/feat unless you are a crossbow archer. What am I missing?
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Yes. Although in each instance you’re set back an ASI, so behind the pack a bit in the dexterity/strength department. And the PAM (my favorite for a hunter) takes you down the strength route only, not a fan favorite I hear.
With Tasha's Beast Master pets scaling their attack rolls off of your Spell Attack Modifier, you can actually do a pretty solid SAD build with this.
Even with the setback they are firmly ahead...thanks to Archery style for CBE its pretty easily so.
Also V.human exists (and now custom lineage) with free feat at 1st level that gives you all the benefit with no cost!
If the DM allows the racial feats you almost don’t need v. Human, etc.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Anyway, here are the lists of feats I pulled out at the start:
1) ANYONE: Alert, Durable, Linguist, Lucky, Mobile, Resilient, Skilled, Skill Expert, Tavern Brawler, Tough
2) Rangers and Fighters: Athlete, Xbox expert, Defensive Duelist, Dual Wielding, Grappler, Mage Slayer, Martial Adept, Savage Attacker, Sentinel, Sharpshooter, Shield Master, Crusher, Fighting Initiate, Piercer, Slasher
3) Fighter not Ranger: Great Weapon Master, Heavy Armor Master, Mounted Combat, Polearm Master
4) Ranger not Fighter: Dungeon Delver, Healer, Keen Mind, Observant, Ritual Caster, Skulker, War Caster, Fey Touched, Poisoner, Shadow Touched, Telekinesis, Telepathic
Granted some might be a stretch but they provide benefits that rangers could make good use of and using them might lead to some interesting roleplay that is not just cutting down hordes of badguys.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
A couple of things,
1) realistically everyone is always capable of two weapon fighting so as long as the other concentration spell is up you can use a bonus action for a second attack no feat or attack style needed, might not do as much damage but it’s something.
2) sorry I don’t know the acronyms CBE and PAM lesson please?
3 if you can get your DM to give you a little leeway in rolling you don’t need the stat boosts so much and can use most of the ASIs on feats which make for more interesting roleplay. Using DDB it’s fairly easy - my rule is that you take the first set of rolls that nothing below a 10 then I might make an exception if you are going with a really MAD character and need that 4 th 13.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
CBE is crossbow expert
PAM is polearm master
Ok thanks
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
One thing I found is once the cleric has access to spirit guardians at 5 the bless train stops rolling. The paladin and the ranger with their half casting make it a little more workable since there may not be better options. Both Bless and Faerie Fire are wonderfully awesome low level spells to ruin a DM's day.
Unfortunately trusting the paladin to use his slots to cast spells doesn't really work, because they burn them up in the first encounter with smites.
The iconic ranger is either would invest in either the Archery or Two Weapon Fighting styles. And TWF, while generally an inferior option, can be quite effective for rangers due to how hunter's mark works. That said, the new options from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything allow the Beast Masters to be practically single-ability dependent as a melee combatant. Their biggest priority is Wisdom, with Dexterity and Constitution being secondary.
I'd say on a dual wielder with Shillelagh. There's some room for Fighting Initiate: Two Weapon Fighting Style and the Metamagic Adept feat. While I wouldn't necessarily be useable all the time. it could make a pair of clubs interesting weapons to wield through twinning shillelagh. Though You'd probably want to pick up at least one of those through a 1st level feat possibility.
I admit it's kind of niche and not necessarily always usable. But it is a combination that somebody could have fun with and makes two weapon fighting potentially a bit less MAD.
Rather than dual wielded, pole arm master with a quarterstaff - you get a bonus action attack with the other end - normally for 1D4 but if you have shillelagh up it should supersede and you get 2 attacks for 1D8. And both act as magic weapons for resistances. Dual clubs might mean you have to cast shillelagh twice.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This is why I said the Metamagic Adept to twin it. Because you can't just cast it twice. Which is where the downside is at because the spells duration is relatively short and you'd only have a couple times you could do it a day. Then you'd have to stick with it just being on one weapon. So it's not perfect. But it is an option.
And i'm sorry but I just got to say it. PAM is just plain boring and over hyped. I'm not saying that it's not pretty good. But it's not this be all and end all that people make it out to be.
The 1d4 from PAM is a function of the feat, not the weapon itself. I'm not convinced a DM would, or even should, allow it.
Rangers also have enough going on with their Bonus Action. They don't need yet another attack competing for it.
AGREED THE 1D4 is from the feat but the 1D8 is from the shillelagh spell which applies to the entire weapon superseding the feat damage as long as the spell is up. Yes rangers have a lot of ways to use their bonus actions this is specifically a way to get 2 weapon fighting without taking the fighting style or the feat and still get the damage of dual wielding 2 magic long swords when you want it. The only thing you lose is the +1 to AC.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Probably the ideal place to do this is with a wood elf ranger. The wood elf magic racial feat grants the cantrip (shillelagh) its a bonus action spell, lasts for a fight (1 min) no concentration required. That leaves you with 9 bonus actions if the fight lasts 10 rounds. Until you can get the pole arm master feat you are stuck with the single attack and the bonus actions are available for other uses. With the feat you have options, you can use the first 2 for shillelagh and hunters mark or you could have taken the archery style and use this combo as a backup when forced into melee. At L5 when some clown closes with you it may be a huge surprise to them to have you caste both spells (HM as an action and Shil. as a bonus action, then attack for 1D8+1D6 all in the same round and then wail the next rounds with 3 attacks each for 1D8+1D6+stat bonus.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
My personal favourites, not limited to Rangers necessarily:
Second tier:
Third tier (want to try):
I'm sure there are probably one or two I've missed, but those are all in my current favourites, or things I want to try at some stage.
There is some issue over specificity here. Shillelagh may apply to the weapon. But the feat over-rides anything the weapon does to make the 1d4 attack. So there is an argument to be made that shillelagh would not count for the bonus action attack since it's generated specifically by the Feat and not the weapon and only flavored as the other end of the weapon in hand.
Also I noticed something about PAM. I hadn't looked at this feat in a long time and had made a couple of assumptions based upon the way that others used it (particularly in arguments against various bonus action attacks not being that much better). Ones I think a lot of people are likely making. PAM does not actually say that any modifier gets applied to the damage. Only that the ability modifier to attacking with it is the same one used for the Primary attack. Meaning that PAM does not do nearly as much damage as many argue that it does. meaning full BA attacks that apply modifiers to damage are much better than the BA attack that PAM does as far as damage goes. This is important because there isn't anything that gives this effect to PAM like the fighting style does to Two Weapon Fighting. But also, on a brighter note, PAM does not actually care what ability modifier is actually used for it's attack. Only that it matches the same one used for the primary attack. This is good in the matter of Shillelagh if it can't modify the damage because even if it doesn't increase the damage it still does use Wisdom as it's attack still because that matches the primary attack that activated it.
The wording in it and making the distinction about the ability modifier suggests that mechanically the weapon is not particularly influencing the bonus action attack with PAM. The implication run a bit deeper really with that suggestion that I don't think we need to get into. But regardless of them. PAM would indeed be missing a decent chunk of damage in comparison to 2 weapon fighting as well as the +1 AC on it's bonus action attack. Shillelagh would only mitigate some of that damage loss at best. Against a club without Shillelagh it may work out somewhat close overall. But against bigger weapons though it's not really that close.
I read the two somewhat differently. A quarter staff normally does 1 D6, used 2 handed for 1 attack it does 1D8 plus the stat bonus. PAM gives it a bonus action second attack doing 1D4, I don’t see anything in it that says the stat bonus doesn’t apply so it should. Then the shillelagh spell is applied rendering the entire quarter staff a magic weapon and giving it a damage value of 1D8 whether it is wielded one or two handed this at least suggests that so long as shillelagh is up when it hits it does 1D8 rendering the bonus action strike a 1D8. The spell says you can use wisdom instead of strength but it doesn’t say you must so you can use either and get the stat bonus as extra damage. As I see it the spell overwrites the feat as it is the most specific where the feat is more general. Now this could well be a case of one of us seeing it as anything not specifically allowed is forbidden while the other is reading it as anything not specifically forbidden is allowed. Still it’s a good discussion.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
A different question I keep seeing folks saying that CBE makes the archery style superior, but when I look at it the only thing I see that has any application to the long or short bow is the fact that you don’t get disadvantage if a foe is up close and personal. No bonus action damage or attacks, no extra damage, etc. can someone please explain why you feel it is so useful. To me it seems a waste of a precious ASI/feat unless you are a crossbow archer. What am I missing?
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.