Even at level 8-10 both the double hand crossbow and TWF are stuck with 3 attacks a round without counting in features or spells that still means 17 damage for the archer and 21 for the melee. At L11 Hunter offers each a way to get more shots but it’s the same number of extras (volley vs whirlwind - both are 5’ radius) generally from 11 on both have some way of getting a fourth shot ( 3 attacks + bonus action) but the TWF simply does more damage on each hit than the dual archer so that’s not really a help. As I said it’s really the magic spells applied to the bolts that give the archer the damage. I know it’s hard to accept but without magical aide the TWF does better base damage than the dual archer at every level when everything is kept even.
yeah that is what an arcane archer should look like not the nerfed fighter version.
Even at level 8-10 both the double hand crossbow and TWF are stuck with 3 attacks a round without counting in features or spells that still means 17 damage for the archer and 21 for the melee. At L11 Hunter offers each a way to get more shots but it’s the same number of extras (volley vs whirlwind - both are 5’ radius) generally from 11 on both have some way of getting a fourth shot ( 3 attacks + bonus action) but the TWF simply does more damage on each hit than the dual archer so that’s not really a help. As I said it’s really the magic spells applied to the bolts that give the archer the damage. I know it’s hard to accept but without magical aide the TWF does better base damage than the dual archer at every level when everything is kept even.
yeah that is what an arcane archer should look like not the nerfed fighter version.
TWF is about even.... You keep forgetting that archery has an accuracy boost. Actually the CBE pulls ahead slightly but has worse AC (assuming you take dual wielder feat)
When calculating DPR accuracy is very big in boosting that number. It's not just about average damage it's about the damage, how often you hit, and AC spectrum.
EDIT: I forgot to include another potential (albeit completely DM dependant) factor: Weapons that add damage on a hit.
If you get a weapon or weapons that do extra damage on a hit (like 1d4 thunder damage or whatever) then I think that they are typically more common on melee weapons. Thus TWF would be the better case here.
Unlikely to occur as most weapons of this vein are rare or very rare but could come up.
Thanks to Tasha's you can swap your style though at an ASI so there is that as well!
first of all im leaving out added damage from weapons since in a fair comparison yu have to give matching weapons which negates their effect. This also applies to features like volley where you then have to compare to the TWF using whirlwind against the same number of foes so here is the full math:
at level 7 against a standard Orc (AC 13, 12 HP +5 to hit, great axe for 9 damage (1D12 +3(Str))
Archer AC 16 +7 to hit, damage: (1d6 +3) = (1d6) = 9 average damage (if your giving them the stat bonus on the second shot its 12 average damage) hits on a roll of 6+ so a 25% miss chance and a 75% hit rate so 9x0.75 = 6.75 DPR taking 2 rounds to kill the orc during which the orc attacks hitting 45% of the time so the archer takes 9 x 0.45 = 4 damage per round for 8 damage (6 if you try to factor in the times he goes second and dies before attacking).
TWF: AC 17 +5 to hit 2 attacks for 7 damage each (14) hits 65% of the time so 14 x 0.65= 9.1 DPR, taking 2 rounds as well so he gets hit 40% of time so 0.4 x 9 = 3.6 DPR for 7 points (5.4 points if allowing for orc death)
at level 8 and above you add a third attack and the archer gets to stay back out of the melee so where does that put us?
Archer: 3 attacks: 6+3+6= 15 damage x .75 = 11.25 DPR with no damage taken taking 2 rounds to kill the orc TWF: 3 attacks 7+7+7 = 21 damage x 0.65 = 13.65 DPR killing the orc in one round and averaging 1.8 damage taken
I'm not saying that the TWF is hugely superior they are close but the 2 hand crossbow build simply isn't quite as good in damage dealing. I don't buy hte arguement that because they are out of range of melee they don't add to the party HP pool, by (almost) never needing healing they allow the heals to be applied to a smaller group improving the amount of healing available for those that need it.
In the scenario above the level 8 archer needs 4 shots to kill the orc while the TWF needs only 3 so his body count is going to always beat the archer's by 25%
first of all im leaving out added damage from weapons since in a fair comparison yu have to give matching weapons which negates their effect. This also applies to features like volley where you then have to compare to the TWF using whirlwind against the same number of foes so here is the full math:
at level 7 against a standard Orc (AC 13, 12 HP +5 to hit, great axe for 9 damage (1D12 +3(Str))
Archer AC 16 +7 to hit, damage: (1d6 +3) = (1d6) = 9 average damage (if your giving them the stat bonus on the second shot its 12 average damage) hits on a roll of 6+ so a 25% miss chance and a 75% hit rate so 9x0.75 = 6.75 DPR taking 2 rounds to kill the orc during which the orc attacks hitting 45% of the time so the archer takes 9 x 0.45 = 4 damage per round for 8 damage (6 if you try to factor in the times he goes second and dies before attacking).
TWF: AC 17 +5 to hit 2 attacks for 7 damage each (14) hits 65% of the time so 14 x 0.65= 9.1 DPR, taking 2 rounds as well so he gets hit 40% of time so 0.4 x 9 = 3.6 DPR for 7 points (5.4 points if allowing for orc death)
at level 8 and above you add a third attack and the archer gets to stay back out of the melee so where does that put us?
Archer: 3 attacks: 6+3+6= 15 damage x .75 = 11.25 DPR with no damage taken taking 2 rounds to kill the orc TWF: 3 attacks 7+7+7 = 21 damage x 0.65 = 13.65 DPR killing the orc in one round and averaging 1.8 damage taken
I'm not saying that the TWF is hugely superior they are close but the 2 hand crossbow build simply isn't quite as good in damage dealing. I don't buy hte arguement that because they are out of range of melee they don't add to the party HP pool, by (almost) never needing healing they allow the heals to be applied to a smaller group improving the amount of healing available for those that need it.
In the scenario above the level 8 archer needs 4 shots to kill the orc while the TWF needs only 3 so his body count is going to always beat the archer's by 25%
I am not sure on your math....
Here is mine for comparison:
The Chart on the right shows DPR for AC based on ADV, Normal, DIS and I do not see your numbers to be correct based on this chart for that AC.
Here it is for the TWF:
Based on this they are roughly the same with the lower AC favoring the TWF build and the higher AC favoring the CBE build.
So as I said (and continue to say) the CBE and TWF with no SS is roughly the same but as creatures progress and thus their AC as demonstrated by the chart in the DMG:
The CBE build will generally come out ahead as AC progresses....
Overall I think that the fact you can do roughly the same damage (or arguably more with a higher AC which CR generally trends towards at higher levels) at a safe 30ft distance with the build makes it the generally better choice to me...but that is my take.
You can move in/out of 30 ft range and skirmish to stay out of reach the orc above so the defensive advantage of the +1 AC is highly dependent on where you start combat in comparison to the target.
PAM assigns a new damage dice to the weapon for that attack, but so does Shilleighly. In overlapping effects, just as with armor calculation or finesse, the player chooses one to be operative.
So related to this topic I could use some help. My Fey Wanderer will be hitting level 8 soon and I’m trying to decide between bumping wisdom to 18 or taking resilient con to get to a 14 and the proficiency to boost concentration. Dex is already 20 and I have sharp shooter. Any advice?
nice charts Optimus what app is that? I did notice that you had the AC set to 20 not 13 that may be why your numbers don't match. I'll grant you that as the AC goes up the +2 to hit becomes more important and the archer may match or even exceed the TWF but most foes don't actually have ACs of 20 and above. If you don't trust my math sit down with a calculator and work through it that is what i did and I showed you all the steps check my math. both are good builds but I'm not that the CBE hand crossbow build is so superior that I should stop playing TWF most of the time if you like the archers that's your style of play I'm just sort of tired of hearing about how the archer is SO superior when its really basically even up. I want to play my arcane archer ranger as a variant human with sharpshooter at level 1 - that is an archer character I can get behind. That or a Robinhood style variant human with dual wielding at L1 and archery fighting style at level 2 and sharpshooter or fighting initiate -two weapon fighting at level 4 armed with a rapier, dagger and longbow he is great at range and in melee - best of both worlds.
So related to this topic I could use some help. My Fey Wanderer will be hitting level 8 soon and I’m trying to decide between bumping wisdom to 18 or taking resilient con to get to a 14 and the proficiency to boost concentration. Dex is already 20 and I have sharp shooter. Any advice?
I would suggest you go with Resilient CON myself...
Any way to keep your concentration up on spells is going to be killer once you get Conjure Animals in another level.
Also there are a lot of CON saves in general from creatures in the game:
So not only are you going to be better off with your own saves to maintain concentration you will be better at the most commonly attacked saving throw by Monsters/Creatures.
Granted this information only includes the Monster Manual but the sheer fact it has the most saves, the most Major Conditions, AND most Major Status changes associated with it means that its going to be huge for you defensively.
nice charts Optimus what app is that? I did notice that you had the AC set to 20 not 13 that may be why your numbers don't match. I'll grant you that as the AC goes up the +2 to hit becomes more important and the archer may match or even exceed the TWF but most foes don't actually have ACs of 20 and above. If you don't trust my math sit down with a calculator and work through it that is what i did and I showed you all the steps check my math. both are good builds but I'm not that the CBE hand crossbow build is so superior that I should stop playing TWF most of the time if you like the archers that's your style of play I'm just sort of tired of hearing about how the archer is SO superior when its really basically even up. I want to play my arcane archer ranger as a variant human with sharpshooter at level 1 - that is an archer charac4et I can get behind that or a Robinhood style variant human with dual wielding at L1 and archery fighting style at level 2 and shasrpshooter at level 4 armed with a rapier, dagger and longbow he is great at range and in melee - best of both worlds.
and comparing the list of magic weapons that can be dual wielded to the list of magic items for crossbows...................... the math becomes a lot harder to distill down to a chart.
nice charts Optimus what app is that? I did notice that you had the AC set to 20 not 13 that may be why your numbers don't match. I'll grant you that as the AC goes up the +2 to hit becomes more important and the archer may match or even exceed the TWF but most foes don't actually have ACs of 20 and above. If you don't trust my math sit down with a calculator and work through it that is what i did and I showed you all the steps check my math. both are good builds but I'm not that the CBE hand crossbow build is so superior that I should stop playing TWF most of the time if you like the archers that's your style of play I'm just sort of tired of hearing about how the archer is SO superior when its really basically even up. I want to play my arcane archer ranger as a variant human with sharpshooter at level 1 - that is an archer charac4et I can get behind that or a Robinhood style variant human with dual wielding at L1 and archery fighting style at level 2 and shasrpshooter at level 4 armed with a rapier, dagger and longbow he is great at range and in melee - best of both worlds.
The AC I put in doesn't matter as the chart is what I was referring to that has the AC spectrum:
But I wanted to show that I had the correct inputs.
But you are right its more about what style you want to play ultimately. If you find the shooty style better go with it but TWF does pretty good until 8th level where if you take the "right" feats with the ranged build you pull ahead by a fair margin (or level 4 if you are a v.human but thats optimized optimized)
So related to this topic I could use some help. My Fey Wanderer will be hitting level 8 soon and I’m trying to decide between bumping wisdom to 18 or taking resilient con to get to a 14 and the proficiency to boost concentration. Dex is already 20 and I have sharp shooter. Any advice?
I take it your wisdom is 16 (so the 2 point boost would make it 18) I would take resilient. wisdom will raise your wisdom saves, DCs and SAM by 1 each but resilient will raise your concentration save by 4 (your getting a +1 now but you will get another +1 from the 14 and a +3 from proficiency) that 20% boost to keeping your concentration spells up and running will probably do you a lot more good than the 5% harder save and 5% greater hit on the spells.
nice charts Optimus what app is that? I did notice that you had the AC set to 20 not 13 that may be why your numbers don't match. I'll grant you that as the AC goes up the +2 to hit becomes more important and the archer may match or even exceed the TWF but most foes don't actually have ACs of 20 and above. If you don't trust my math sit down with a calculator and work through it that is what i did and I showed you all the steps check my math. both are good builds but I'm not that the CBE hand crossbow build is so superior that I should stop playing TWF most of the time if you like the archers that's your style of play I'm just sort of tired of hearing about how the archer is SO superior when its really basically even up. I want to play my arcane archer ranger as a variant human with sharpshooter at level 1 - that is an archer charac4et I can get behind that or a Robinhood style variant human with dual wielding at L1 and archery fighting style at level 2 and shasrpshooter at level 4 armed with a rapier, dagger and longbow he is great at range and in melee - best of both worlds.
and comparing the list of magic weapons that can be dual wielded to the list of magic items for crossbows...................... the math becomes a lot harder to distill down to a chart.
I will disagree as a DM can make a magic item do anything they want....they do not have to be limited to the books.
You could make a handcrossbow that does literally anything a magic item in the book does...or the DM could hand out no magic items at all. So as we agreed its fair to not even mention them as a factor in this case..
Funny enough if you want to go down that path with an Artificer buddy it favors the CBE build as Repeating Weapon and Enhanced weapon will improve the CBE/SS build as it only helps offset the -5 penalty more and in the case of repeating weapon makes a shield in the off-hand available and the CBE/SS build has better damage AND better AC.....and DM oversight on this is minimal as its allowed by the build to make as a standard infusion.
That’s kind of where I was leaning. The only thing that made wisdom seem really tempting is that for Fey Wanderer it also boosts my charisma checks and will make the Feys I summon at 11 hit even harder. But probably resilient con now and bumping wisdom to 18 at level 12 makes the most sense.
That’s kind of where I was leaning. The only thing that made wisdom seem really tempting is that for Fey Wanderer it also boosts my charisma checks and will make the Feys I summon at 11 hit even harder. But probably resilient con now and bumping wisdom to 18 at level 12 makes the most sense.
Thanks for the advice.
yeah when you are conjuring or summoning you want those guys staying around a while. you can summon fey without concentration but they only stay for 1 minute - enough for a fight but then they leave, you do it normally they stick around for an hour if you keep concentration and that means they can be used for other things like scouting l or carry over into a second fight.
nice charts Optimus what app is that? I did notice that you had the AC set to 20 not 13 that may be why your numbers don't match. I'll grant you that as the AC goes up the +2 to hit becomes more important and the archer may match or even exceed the TWF but most foes don't actually have ACs of 20 and above. If you don't trust my math sit down with a calculator and work through it that is what i did and I showed you all the steps check my math. both are good builds but I'm not that the CBE hand crossbow build is so superior that I should stop playing TWF most of the time if you like the archers that's your style of play I'm just sort of tired of hearing about how the archer is SO superior when its really basically even up. I want to play my arcane archer ranger as a variant human with sharpshooter at level 1 - that is an archer charac4et I can get behind that or a Robinhood style variant human with dual wielding at L1 and archery fighting style at level 2 and shasrpshooter at level 4 armed with a rapier, dagger and longbow he is great at range and in melee - best of both worlds.
and comparing the list of magic weapons that can be dual wielded to the list of magic items for crossbows...................... the math becomes a lot harder to distill down to a chart.
I will disagree as a DM can make a magic item do anything they want....they do not have to be limited to the books.
You could make a handcrossbow that does literally anything a magic item in the book does...or the DM could hand out no magic items at all. So as we agreed its fair to not even mention them as a factor in this case..
Funny enough if you want to go down that path with an Artificer buddy it favors the CBE build as Repeating Weapon and Enhanced weapon will improve the CBE/SS build as it only helps offset the -5 penalty more and in the case of repeating weapon makes a shield in the off-hand available and the CBE/SS build has better damage AND better AC.....and DM oversight on this is minimal as its allowed by the build to make as a standard infusion.
There will always be dms and situations where homebrew doesn't happen. or where magic item requests are not allowed. its actually quite common. for example AL and written adventures. you cant plan on it. as for the artificer stuff I was referring to more items that add dice rather than just +weapons or ignoring resistance. when extra damage die are added. thats when the math changes.
even if homebrew is allowed the dm is more likely to give weapons that most of the party can use so the party can have fun discussing sharing loot.
So related to this topic I could use some help. My Fey Wanderer will be hitting level 8 soon and I’m trying to decide between bumping wisdom to 18 or taking resilient con to get to a 14 and the proficiency to boost concentration. Dex is already 20 and I have sharp shooter. Any advice?
I take it your wisdom is 16 (so the 2 point boost would make it 18) I would take resilient. wisdom will raise your wisdom saves, DCs and SAM by 1 each but resilient will raise your concentration save by 4 (your getting a +1 now but you will get another +1 from the 14 and a +3 from proficiency) that 20% boost to keeping your concentration spells up and running will probably do you a lot more good than the 5% harder save and 5% greater hit on the spells.
Please, don't just look at the d20 and assume that's how the math works. It's not a flat 20% boost to keeping concentration. The target number is just as important as the modifier to the result. If you only need a 10 to maintain concentration and have a +1 modifier (13 Constitution), then you have a 55% chance of success because you need a 9 or better on the die. But if you have a +5 modifier (14 Constitution plus Proficiency), then you only need a 5 or better. So, on the surface that does look like it's a 75% chance of success. But the overall improvement, compared to their original odds of success, is only about 36.4%. In other words, they're more than just 20% better. But that seemingly great benefit can utterly evaporate against a high enough damage roll. And when that happens, Advantage is the better of the two to have. This is why damage mitigation is so important. Every damage roll avoided, every saving throw resisted, makes Concentration less of a concern.
Moving on, Wisdom is more valuable for Fey Wanderers than just their spell save DCs. Two of their subclass-specific spells (charm person and dispel magic) benefit from having a higher Spellcasting ability. They also have Otherworldly Glamour, so how badly they want to be the Face of the group is going to be a factor. That bonus to Constitution (hit points and saving throws) needs to be weighed against the ranger's other skill proficiencies. This particular ranger has up to 9 skills, not just the standard 5, which benefit from a higher Wisdom score.
nice charts Optimus what app is that? I did notice that you had the AC set to 20 not 13 that may be why your numbers don't match. I'll grant you that as the AC goes up the +2 to hit becomes more important and the archer may match or even exceed the TWF but most foes don't actually have ACs of 20 and above. If you don't trust my math sit down with a calculator and work through it that is what i did and I showed you all the steps check my math. both are good builds but I'm not that the CBE hand crossbow build is so superior that I should stop playing TWF most of the time if you like the archers that's your style of play I'm just sort of tired of hearing about how the archer is SO superior when its really basically even up. I want to play my arcane archer ranger as a variant human with sharpshooter at level 1 - that is an archer charac4et I can get behind that or a Robinhood style variant human with dual wielding at L1 and archery fighting style at level 2 and shasrpshooter at level 4 armed with a rapier, dagger and longbow he is great at range and in melee - best of both worlds.
and comparing the list of magic weapons that can be dual wielded to the list of magic items for crossbows...................... the math becomes a lot harder to distill down to a chart.
I will disagree as a DM can make a magic item do anything they want....they do not have to be limited to the books.
You could make a handcrossbow that does literally anything a magic item in the book does...or the DM could hand out no magic items at all. So as we agreed its fair to not even mention them as a factor in this case..
Funny enough if you want to go down that path with an Artificer buddy it favors the CBE build as Repeating Weapon and Enhanced weapon will improve the CBE/SS build as it only helps offset the -5 penalty more and in the case of repeating weapon makes a shield in the off-hand available and the CBE/SS build has better damage AND better AC.....and DM oversight on this is minimal as its allowed by the build to make as a standard infusion.
There will always be dms and situations where homebrew doesn't happen. or where magic item requests are not allowed. its actually quite common. for example AL and written adventures. you cant plan on it. as for the artificer stuff I was referring to more items that add dice rather than just +weapons or ignoring resistance. when extra damage die are added. thats when the math changes.
even if homebrew is allowed the dm is more likely to give weapons that most of the party can use so the party can have fun discussing sharing loot.
Extra damage die weapons are as likely then for either weapon and then can safely be ignored.
YMMV on basically anything in DnD so I tend to stick to simple concepts that can be built upon.
"I will disagree as a DM can make a magic item do anything they want....they do not have to be limited to the books.
You could make a handcrossbow that does literally anything a magic item in the book does...or the DM could hand out no magic items at all. So as we agreed its fair to not even mention them as a factor in this case..
Funny enough if you want to go down that path with an Artificer buddy it favors the CBE build as Repeating Weapon and Enhanced weapon will improve the CBE/SS build as it only helps offset the -5 penalty more and in the case of repeating weapon makes a shield in the off-hand available and the CBE/SS build has better damage AND better AC.....and DM oversight on this is minimal as its allowed by the build to make as a standard infusion. "
that is really the point i was making about fair comparisons - if your giving one a magic item you have to give the other an equivalent and so they basically cancel out. same thing for adding other feats - if one gets it the other has to get a feat that gives basically the same thing in order to do a fair comparison that is the thing about fair comparisons you take away all those addins to one to make it better and see the real numbers Level 13 Archer vs AC20: +11 to hit (18 Dex-+4, PB +5, Archery style +2) hits on a 9+ so 60% hit rate times 17 average damage for the 3 attacks = 10.2 ADPR (10.5 DPR if you give all 3 attacks the dex stat damage)
Level 13 TWF vs AC20: +9 to hit (dex + PB) 3 attacks for 24 average total damage hits on am 11+ so 50% hit rate so .5 x 24 = 12 ADPR.
That 10% from archery helps but as long as your using hand crossbows vs rapiers your going to be behind in average damage per round unless you do all 3 shots are using the sharpshooter -5 for +10 THEN the archer pulls ahead doing 18.8 (19) or 20.4 ADPR if you get dex on all 3 attacks. so levels 2-7 TWF is better Level 8 up because of the -5/+10 tradeoff the archer is better as you said. give the TWF a similar tradeoff (I don't think any feat so far does this sadly) and it would balance the two again (a feat that gave the TWF a -2 to hit for a +10 damage on each hit would move their ADPR up to 18.9 right in line with the archer)
"I will disagree as a DM can make a magic item do anything they want....they do not have to be limited to the books.
You could make a handcrossbow that does literally anything a magic item in the book does...or the DM could hand out no magic items at all. So as we agreed its fair to not even mention them as a factor in this case..
Funny enough if you want to go down that path with an Artificer buddy it favors the CBE build as Repeating Weapon and Enhanced weapon will improve the CBE/SS build as it only helps offset the -5 penalty more and in the case of repeating weapon makes a shield in the off-hand available and the CBE/SS build has better damage AND better AC.....and DM oversight on this is minimal as its allowed by the build to make as a standard infusion. "
that is really the point i was making about fair comparisons - if your giving one a magic item you have to give the other an equivalent and so they basically cancel out. same thing for adding other feats - if one gets it the other has to get a feat that gives basically the same thing in order to do a fair comparison that is the thing about fair comparisons you take away all those addins to one to make it better and see the real numbers Level 13 Archer vs AC20: +11 to hit (18 Dex-+4, PB +5, Archery style +2) hits on a 9+ so 60% hit rate times 17 average damage for the 3 attacks = 10.2 ADPR (10.5 DPR if you give all 3 attacks the dex stat damage)
Level 13 TWF vs AC20: +9 to hit (dex + PB) 3 attacks for 24 average total damage hits on am 11+ so 50% hit rate so .5 x 24 = 12 ADPR.
That 10% from archery helps but as long as your using hand crossbows vs rapiers your going to be behind in average damage per round unless you do all 3 shots are using the sharpshooter -5 for +10 THEN the archer pulls ahead doing 18.8 (19) or 20.4 ADPR if you get dex on all 3 attacks. so levels 2-7 TWF is better Level 8 up because of the -5/+10 tradeoff the archer is better as you said. give the TWF a similar tradeoff (I don't think any feat so far does this sadly) and it would balance the two again (a feat that gave the TWF a -2 to hit for a +10 damage on each hit would move their ADPR up to 18.9 right in line with the archer)
I mean I disagree as you may face higher ACs in that timeframe that would favor the handcrossbow/CBE build. But I have shown my math which I think fairly shows how AC across the spectrum you would expect to perform.
AGREED THE 1D4 is from the feat but the 1D8 is from the shillelagh spell which applies to the entire weapon superseding the feat damage as long as the spell is up. Yes rangers have a lot of ways to use their bonus actions this is specifically a way to get 2 weapon fighting without taking the fighting style or the feat and still get the damage of dual wielding 2 magic long swords when you want it. The only thing you lose is the +1 to AC.
It's from a tweet from four-and-a-half years ago, but Jeremy Crawford disagrees.
Even at level 8-10 both the double hand crossbow and TWF are stuck with 3 attacks a round without counting in features or spells that still means 17 damage for the archer and 21 for the melee. At L11 Hunter offers each a way to get more shots but it’s the same number of extras (volley vs whirlwind - both are 5’ radius) generally from 11 on both have some way of getting a fourth shot ( 3 attacks + bonus action) but the TWF simply does more damage on each hit than the dual archer so that’s not really a help. As I said it’s really the magic spells applied to the bolts that give the archer the damage. I know it’s hard to accept but without magical aide the TWF does better base damage than the dual archer at every level when everything is kept even.
yeah that is what an arcane archer should look like not the nerfed fighter version.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
TWF is about even.... You keep forgetting that archery has an accuracy boost. Actually the CBE pulls ahead slightly but has worse AC (assuming you take dual wielder feat)
When calculating DPR accuracy is very big in boosting that number. It's not just about average damage it's about the damage, how often you hit, and AC spectrum.
EDIT: I forgot to include another potential (albeit completely DM dependant) factor: Weapons that add damage on a hit.
If you get a weapon or weapons that do extra damage on a hit (like 1d4 thunder damage or whatever) then I think that they are typically more common on melee weapons. Thus TWF would be the better case here.
Unlikely to occur as most weapons of this vein are rare or very rare but could come up.
Thanks to Tasha's you can swap your style though at an ASI so there is that as well!
first of all im leaving out added damage from weapons since in a fair comparison yu have to give matching weapons which negates their effect. This also applies to features like volley where you then have to compare to the TWF using whirlwind against the same number of foes so here is the full math:
at level 7 against a standard Orc (AC 13, 12 HP +5 to hit, great axe for 9 damage (1D12 +3(Str))
Archer AC 16 +7 to hit, damage: (1d6 +3) = (1d6) = 9 average damage (if your giving them the stat bonus on the second shot its 12 average damage)
hits on a roll of 6+ so a 25% miss chance and a 75% hit rate so 9x0.75 = 6.75 DPR taking 2 rounds to kill the orc during which the orc attacks hitting 45% of the time so the archer takes 9 x 0.45 = 4 damage per round for 8 damage (6 if you try to factor in the times he goes second and dies before attacking).
TWF: AC 17 +5 to hit 2 attacks for 7 damage each (14) hits 65% of the time so 14 x 0.65= 9.1 DPR, taking 2 rounds as well so he gets hit 40% of time so 0.4 x 9 = 3.6 DPR for 7 points (5.4 points if allowing for orc death)
at level 8 and above you add a third attack and the archer gets to stay back out of the melee so where does that put us?
Archer: 3 attacks: 6+3+6= 15 damage x .75 = 11.25 DPR with no damage taken taking 2 rounds to kill the orc
TWF: 3 attacks 7+7+7 = 21 damage x 0.65 = 13.65 DPR killing the orc in one round and averaging 1.8 damage taken
I'm not saying that the TWF is hugely superior they are close but the 2 hand crossbow build simply isn't quite as good in damage dealing. I don't buy hte arguement that because they are out of range of melee they don't add to the party HP pool, by (almost) never needing healing they allow the heals to be applied to a smaller group improving the amount of healing available for those that need it.
In the scenario above the level 8 archer needs 4 shots to kill the orc while the TWF needs only 3 so his body count is going to always beat the archer's by 25%
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I am not sure on your math....
Here is mine for comparison:
The Chart on the right shows DPR for AC based on ADV, Normal, DIS and I do not see your numbers to be correct based on this chart for that AC.
Here it is for the TWF:
Based on this they are roughly the same with the lower AC favoring the TWF build and the higher AC favoring the CBE build.
So as I said (and continue to say) the CBE and TWF with no SS is roughly the same but as creatures progress and thus their AC as demonstrated by the chart in the DMG:
The CBE build will generally come out ahead as AC progresses....
Overall I think that the fact you can do roughly the same damage (or arguably more with a higher AC which CR generally trends towards at higher levels) at a safe 30ft distance with the build makes it the generally better choice to me...but that is my take.
You can move in/out of 30 ft range and skirmish to stay out of reach the orc above so the defensive advantage of the +1 AC is highly dependent on where you start combat in comparison to the target.
PAM assigns a new damage dice to the weapon for that attack, but so does Shilleighly. In overlapping effects, just as with armor calculation or finesse, the player chooses one to be operative.
So related to this topic I could use some help. My Fey Wanderer will be hitting level 8 soon and I’m trying to decide between bumping wisdom to 18 or taking resilient con to get to a 14 and the proficiency to boost concentration. Dex is already 20 and I have sharp shooter. Any advice?
nice charts Optimus what app is that? I did notice that you had the AC set to 20 not 13 that may be why your numbers don't match. I'll grant you that as the AC goes up the +2 to hit becomes more important and the archer may match or even exceed the TWF but most foes don't actually have ACs of 20 and above. If you don't trust my math sit down with a calculator and work through it that is what i did and I showed you all the steps check my math. both are good builds but I'm not that the CBE hand crossbow build is so superior that I should stop playing TWF most of the time if you like the archers that's your style of play I'm just sort of tired of hearing about how the archer is SO superior when its really basically even up. I want to play my arcane archer ranger as a variant human with sharpshooter at level 1 - that is an archer character I can get behind. That or a Robinhood style variant human with dual wielding at L1 and archery fighting style at level 2 and sharpshooter or fighting initiate -two weapon fighting at level 4 armed with a rapier, dagger and longbow he is great at range and in melee - best of both worlds.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I would suggest you go with Resilient CON myself...
Any way to keep your concentration up on spells is going to be killer once you get Conjure Animals in another level.
Also there are a lot of CON saves in general from creatures in the game:
So not only are you going to be better off with your own saves to maintain concentration you will be better at the most commonly attacked saving throw by Monsters/Creatures.
Granted this information only includes the Monster Manual but the sheer fact it has the most saves, the most Major Conditions, AND most Major Status changes associated with it means that its going to be huge for you defensively.
Source: Spells and Monsters by Saving Throw : dndnext (reddit.com)
and comparing the list of magic weapons that can be dual wielded to the list of magic items for crossbows...................... the math becomes a lot harder to distill down to a chart.
The AC I put in doesn't matter as the chart is what I was referring to that has the AC spectrum:
But I wanted to show that I had the correct inputs.
But you are right its more about what style you want to play ultimately. If you find the shooty style better go with it but TWF does pretty good until 8th level where if you take the "right" feats with the ranged build you pull ahead by a fair margin (or level 4 if you are a v.human but thats optimized optimized)
Here is the calculator I use BTW: LudicSavant and AureusFulgen's DPR Calculator (v2.51) - Google Sheets
I take it your wisdom is 16 (so the 2 point boost would make it 18) I would take resilient. wisdom will raise your wisdom saves, DCs and SAM by 1 each but resilient will raise your concentration save by 4 (your getting a +1 now but you will get another +1 from the 14 and a +3 from proficiency) that 20% boost to keeping your concentration spells up and running will probably do you a lot more good than the 5% harder save and 5% greater hit on the spells.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I will disagree as a DM can make a magic item do anything they want....they do not have to be limited to the books.
You could make a handcrossbow that does literally anything a magic item in the book does...or the DM could hand out no magic items at all. So as we agreed its fair to not even mention them as a factor in this case..
Funny enough if you want to go down that path with an Artificer buddy it favors the CBE build as Repeating Weapon and Enhanced weapon will improve the CBE/SS build as it only helps offset the -5 penalty more and in the case of repeating weapon makes a shield in the off-hand available and the CBE/SS build has better damage AND better AC.....and DM oversight on this is minimal as its allowed by the build to make as a standard infusion.
That’s kind of where I was leaning. The only thing that made wisdom seem really tempting is that for Fey Wanderer it also boosts my charisma checks and will make the Feys I summon at 11 hit even harder. But probably resilient con now and bumping wisdom to 18 at level 12 makes the most sense.
Thanks for the advice.
yeah when you are conjuring or summoning you want those guys staying around a while. you can summon fey without concentration but they only stay for 1 minute - enough for a fight but then they leave, you do it normally they stick around for an hour if you keep concentration and that means they can be used for other things like scouting l or carry over into a second fight.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
There will always be dms and situations where homebrew doesn't happen. or where magic item requests are not allowed. its actually quite common. for example AL and written adventures. you cant plan on it. as for the artificer stuff I was referring to more items that add dice rather than just +weapons or ignoring resistance. when extra damage die are added. thats when the math changes.
even if homebrew is allowed the dm is more likely to give weapons that most of the party can use so the party can have fun discussing sharing loot.
Please, don't just look at the d20 and assume that's how the math works. It's not a flat 20% boost to keeping concentration. The target number is just as important as the modifier to the result. If you only need a 10 to maintain concentration and have a +1 modifier (13 Constitution), then you have a 55% chance of success because you need a 9 or better on the die. But if you have a +5 modifier (14 Constitution plus Proficiency), then you only need a 5 or better. So, on the surface that does look like it's a 75% chance of success. But the overall improvement, compared to their original odds of success, is only about 36.4%. In other words, they're more than just 20% better. But that seemingly great benefit can utterly evaporate against a high enough damage roll. And when that happens, Advantage is the better of the two to have. This is why damage mitigation is so important. Every damage roll avoided, every saving throw resisted, makes Concentration less of a concern.
Moving on, Wisdom is more valuable for Fey Wanderers than just their spell save DCs. Two of their subclass-specific spells (charm person and dispel magic) benefit from having a higher Spellcasting ability. They also have Otherworldly Glamour, so how badly they want to be the Face of the group is going to be a factor. That bonus to Constitution (hit points and saving throws) needs to be weighed against the ranger's other skill proficiencies. This particular ranger has up to 9 skills, not just the standard 5, which benefit from a higher Wisdom score.
Extra damage die weapons are as likely then for either weapon and then can safely be ignored.
YMMV on basically anything in DnD so I tend to stick to simple concepts that can be built upon.
"I will disagree as a DM can make a magic item do anything they want....they do not have to be limited to the books.
You could make a handcrossbow that does literally anything a magic item in the book does...or the DM could hand out no magic items at all. So as we agreed its fair to not even mention them as a factor in this case..
Funny enough if you want to go down that path with an Artificer buddy it favors the CBE build as Repeating Weapon and Enhanced weapon will improve the CBE/SS build as it only helps offset the -5 penalty more and in the case of repeating weapon makes a shield in the off-hand available and the CBE/SS build has better damage AND better AC.....and DM oversight on this is minimal as its allowed by the build to make as a standard infusion. "
that is really the point i was making about fair comparisons - if your giving one a magic item you have to give the other an equivalent and so they basically cancel out. same thing for adding other feats - if one gets it the other has to get a feat that gives basically the same thing in order to do a fair comparison that is the thing about fair comparisons you take away all those addins to one to make it better and see the real numbers
Level 13 Archer vs AC20: +11 to hit (18 Dex-+4, PB +5, Archery style +2) hits on a 9+ so 60% hit rate times 17 average damage for the 3 attacks = 10.2 ADPR (10.5 DPR if you give all 3 attacks the dex stat damage)
Level 13 TWF vs AC20: +9 to hit (dex + PB) 3 attacks for 24 average total damage hits on am 11+ so 50% hit rate so .5 x 24 = 12 ADPR.
That 10% from archery helps but as long as your using hand crossbows vs rapiers your going to be behind in average damage per round unless you do all 3 shots are using the sharpshooter -5 for +10 THEN the archer pulls ahead doing 18.8 (19) or 20.4 ADPR if you get dex on all 3 attacks. so levels 2-7 TWF is better Level 8 up because of the -5/+10 tradeoff the archer is better as you said. give the TWF a similar tradeoff (I don't think any feat so far does this sadly) and it would balance the two again (a feat that gave the TWF a -2 to hit for a +10 damage on each hit would move their ADPR up to 18.9 right in line with the archer)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I mean I disagree as you may face higher ACs in that timeframe that would favor the handcrossbow/CBE build. But I have shown my math which I think fairly shows how AC across the spectrum you would expect to perform.
YMMV depending on what creatures you face.
It's from a tweet from four-and-a-half years ago, but Jeremy Crawford disagrees.
This interaction was also discussed in an earlier thread.
EDIT: And it's in the Sage Advice Compendium (page 19, middle of left column).