A different question I keep seeing folks saying that CBE makes the archery style superior, but when I look at it the only thing I see that has any application to the long or short bow is the fact that you don’t get disadvantage if a foe is up close and personal. No bonus action damage or attacks, no extra damage, etc. can someone please explain why you feel it is so useful. To me it seems a waste of a precious ASI/feat unless you are a crossbow archer. What am I missing?
A different question I keep seeing folks saying that CBE makes the archery style superior, but when I look at it the only thing I see that has any application to the long or short bow is the fact that you don’t get disadvantage if a foe is up close and personal. No bonus action damage or attacks, no extra damage, etc. can someone please explain why you feel it is so useful. To me it seems a waste of a precious ASI/feat unless you are a crossbow archer. What am I missing?
It's that and the fact that it removes the loading property from crossbows so that you have a 1d10 base option available for all attacks as often as not. Which is still not that much more of an increase besides not getting disadvantage from firing your weapon when somebody is close to you. It's basically a false equivalence argument mixed with a "Ranged is always better" mindset. So when having Damage similar to a 2 handed weapon using GWM as a ranged option and being able to use it in melee range s well, many default to the argument that it is automatically superior to everything else. But it's all white room mentality and are only considering it under favorable conditions and not ever considering various complications that ranged combat can have.
Also they tend to not be considering the fact that magical crossbows are much more rare, tend to not have as much variety, and things of that nature. So they really are just settling for the ability to use it in melee range more often than not. Saves Weapon Swapping but doesn't really make it superior.
That is what I thought, thanks. I think it was 4e that had a magic weapon called a staff bow that converted on command between a +1 longbow and a +1 quarterstaff which with shillelagh would do the same for bow wielders. Guess I’ll have to go find it and homebrew it.
That is what I thought, thanks. I think it was 4e that had a magic weapon called a staff bow that converted on command between a +1 longbow and a +1 quarterstaff which with shillelagh would do the same for bow wielders. Guess I’ll have to go find it and homebrew it.
A few editions had a variety of such weapons. i think the one you mentioned might have even existed in 2nd ed and 3rd ed as well. i don't have the tome of magical items for second edition laying around to double check anymore though. It may or may not be in my stored stuff sadly.
But 5th edition seems to be largely lacking in those kinds of items except perhaps as homebrews.
That they are out there in some form makes it a lot easier to homebrew than if you were creating from scratch so it helps I just have to make the time.
A different question I keep seeing folks saying that CBE makes the archery style superior, but when I look at it the only thing I see that has any application to the long or short bow is the fact that you don’t get disadvantage if a foe is up close and personal. No bonus action damage or attacks, no extra damage, etc. can someone please explain why you feel it is so useful. To me it seems a waste of a precious ASI/feat unless you are a crossbow archer. What am I missing?
It's that and the fact that it removes the loading property from crossbows so that you have a 1d10 base option available for all attacks as often as not. Which is still not that much more of an increase besides not getting disadvantage from firing your weapon when somebody is close to you. It's basically a false equivalence argument mixed with a "Ranged is always better" mindset. So when having Damage similar to a 2 handed weapon using GWM as a ranged option and being able to use it in melee range s well, many default to the argument that it is automatically superior to everything else. But it's all white room mentality and are only considering it under favorable conditions and not ever considering various complications that ranged combat can have.
Also they tend to not be considering the fact that magical crossbows are much more rare, tend to not have as much variety, and things of that nature. So they really are just settling for the ability to use it in melee range more often than not. Saves Weapon Swapping but doesn't really make it superior.
The real power from CBE is paired with sharpshooter and the archery style.
Getting an extra +10 damage attack is massive for DPR. The math works out that with the style it's better to power attack when the enemy AC is 18+ which if you're a DM trying to balance the game that's how you do it with a CBE+SS build.
However, an extra attack with +2 to hit is very good. TWF gives you an extra attack but lacks the +2 so it's generally lower in DPR.
Because of the no DIS at close range with CBE you can compare them in just about any scenario and the CBE build will win out and then push ahead very fast if you pick up sharpshooter.
The magic item point is moot for two reasons:
1. All magic items are at DM disgression so everyone is at the mercy of their DM on what they get.
2. A +1 weapon can be anything so it's not hard to just give that one and be done with it.
If a DM isn't giving items to match your build and just randomly handing out stuff then sure it's unlikely to come up but that's also the worst way to do magic items IMO.
Sharpshooter and the archery style clearly fit together nicely that isn't in the question (and the -5 to hit to get +10 damage is from sharpshooter not CBE). but folks seem (and maybe its just my impression) to be wild about CBE by itself not as a part of a CBE+SS+AS combo. I can see that for a crossbow wielder its very good allowing them to get off as many shots as they have attacks each round and to fire at point blank range. the hand crossbow isn't bad either but I've never been real impressed with hand crossbows personally. if you are not a crossbow wielder then the hand crossbow probably doesn't count and the loading negation has no impact leaving you spending a feat to get to shoot your bow or throw your sling stone at point blank range as a proficient weapon rather than as a makeshift one. useful but useful enough for the feat? I'm having a hard time accepting that. So I'm having trouble seeing why a bow user (or sling user) would take it instead of sharpshooter or an increase in DEX at the ASI. if a foe gets that close to me I drop my bow (a free action) and draw my sword (a free action) and attack proficiently just as the CBE would allow me to do.so there is no difference there except that my strength bonus and Dex bonus may not be the same causing a small variation. generally magic items are, as you point out, so variable as to be outside of the realm of discussion in such a comparison.
So the question remains: IF I'm using a bow or sling why should I take CBE, how will it help me more than taking sharpshooter or even simply taking +2 to my DEX with the ASI? (Or for that matter taking shield master or Medium armor master?)
A different question I keep seeing folks saying that CBE makes the archery style superior, but when I look at it the only thing I see that has any application to the long or short bow is the fact that you don’t get disadvantage if a foe is up close and personal. No bonus action damage or attacks, no extra damage, etc. can someone please explain why you feel it is so useful. To me it seems a waste of a precious ASI/feat unless you are a crossbow archer. What am I missing?
The bonus action attack.
It's like getting an extra attack
what bonus action attack? the hand crossbow? remember you are wielding a light (or heavy) crossbow which is a 2 handed weapon so you don't get the bonus action. You could be wielding a hand crossbow and get it but now you are always at 30' or less unless you have also taken sharpshooter (so at least level 8) so you get 2 1D6 + stat bonus attacks at 30'- range vs 2 1D6 + stat attacks with short swords closing from 30'- not much difference there to these eyes. and if you don't have TWF you can get 1D8 + stat +1D4 with a long sword and dagger and your bonus action. I just don't see where CBE makes a big difference ON ITS OWN compared to other options. (unless you are higher level and wielding a light or heavy crossbow)
A different question I keep seeing folks saying that CBE makes the archery style superior, but when I look at it the only thing I see that has any application to the long or short bow is the fact that you don’t get disadvantage if a foe is up close and personal. No bonus action damage or attacks, no extra damage, etc. can someone please explain why you feel it is so useful. To me it seems a waste of a precious ASI/feat unless you are a crossbow archer. What am I missing?
The bonus action attack.
It's like getting an extra attack
what bonus action attack? the hand crossbow? remember you are wielding a light (or heavy) crossbow which is a 2 handed weapon so you don't get the bonus action. You could be wielding a hand crossbow and get it but now you are always at 30' or less unless you have also taken sharpshooter (so at least level 8) so you get 2 1D6 + stat bonus attacks at 30'- range vs 2 1D6 + stat attacks with short swords closing from 30'- not much difference there to these eyes. and if you don't have TWF you can get 1D8 + stat +1D4 with a long sword and dagger and your bonus action. I just don't see where CBE makes a big difference ON ITS OWN compared to other options. (unless you are higher level and wielding a light or heavy crossbow)
like I said. it's all in the perception of range. Even with the dual hand crossbow scenario it's all about the perception of range. Even though the dual crossbow scenario has it's own problems on any character that the extra attack feature. Because while CBE allows you to remove the loading property. It does not remove the requirement of having a hand free to load the crossbow.
The Requirement of a free hand is a part of the ammunition property. Something that CBE does not alter in any way. And is usually either ignored or causes frustration by anybody suggesting the dual crossbow style on anything but a rogue which they handwave to reload between turns though strictly RaW it doesn't work that way for the rogue either.
Though I will point out that without the fighting style or the dual Wielder feat. you would only be able to wield two light weapons. so your looking at 1d6+stat+1d6 at best with a pair of short swords but you have to draw each individually which is bothersome on the first turn of combat. Dual Wielder would allow you to do something like dual longswords which is 1d8+stat+1d8 and gives you +1AC and the ability to draw both weapons as part of a single move or attack action (an important little distinction of it's own to item interactions). With just the Two Weapon Fighting Style you would manage 1d6+statx2. When you combine both of these things for optimal performance. your capable of something like 1d8+statx2 as well as +1ac and drawing both weapons as a single action.
Two Clubs, With Shillelagh on one of them does create a situation of 1d8+stat+1d4 however. This is why with my niche mention i mentioned getting the fighting style to at least get additional stat modifier damage in combats where you couldn't twin Shillelagh onto both weapons, though it would guarantee double stat modifier when you could twin it. The only thing it wouldn't do is give you the +1 ac or allow you to draw both clubs at once, which is a tiny issue but it could be worked around considering it is just a suboptimal niche build as I stated.
A different question I keep seeing folks saying that CBE makes the archery style superior, but when I look at it the only thing I see that has any application to the long or short bow is the fact that you don’t get disadvantage if a foe is up close and personal. No bonus action damage or attacks, no extra damage, etc. can someone please explain why you feel it is so useful. To me it seems a waste of a precious ASI/feat unless you are a crossbow archer. What am I missing?
The bonus action attack.
It's like getting an extra attack
what bonus action attack? the hand crossbow? remember you are wielding a light (or heavy) crossbow which is a 2 handed weapon so you don't get the bonus action. You could be wielding a hand crossbow and get it but now you are always at 30' or less unless you have also taken sharpshooter (so at least level 8) so you get 2 1D6 + stat bonus attacks at 30'- range vs 2 1D6 + stat attacks with short swords closing from 30'- not much difference there to these eyes. and if you don't have TWF you can get 1D8 + stat +1D4 with a long sword and dagger and your bonus action. I just don't see where CBE makes a big difference ON ITS OWN compared to other options. (unless you are higher level and wielding a light or heavy crossbow)
If you use a handcrossbow you can attack with a bonus action:
Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow
and then fire it again as a bonus action? It does! Take a
look at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a
hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack
action to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand cross-
bow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for
both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the
A different question I keep seeing folks saying that CBE makes the archery style superior, but when I look at it the only thing I see that has any application to the long or short bow is the fact that you don’t get disadvantage if a foe is up close and personal. No bonus action damage or attacks, no extra damage, etc. can someone please explain why you feel it is so useful. To me it seems a waste of a precious ASI/feat unless you are a crossbow archer. What am I missing?
The bonus action attack.
It's like getting an extra attack
what bonus action attack? the hand crossbow? remember you are wielding a light (or heavy) crossbow which is a 2 handed weapon so you don't get the bonus action. You could be wielding a hand crossbow and get it but now you are always at 30' or less unless you have also taken sharpshooter (so at least level 8) so you get 2 1D6 + stat bonus attacks at 30'- range vs 2 1D6 + stat attacks with short swords closing from 30'- not much difference there to these eyes. and if you don't have TWF you can get 1D8 + stat +1D4 with a long sword and dagger and your bonus action. I just don't see where CBE makes a big difference ON ITS OWN compared to other options. (unless you are higher level and wielding a light or heavy crossbow)
like I said. it's all in the perception of range. Even with the dual hand crossbow scenario it's all about the perception of range. Even though the dual crossbow scenario has it's own problems on any character that the extra attack feature. Because while CBE allows you to remove the loading property. It does not remove the requirement of having a hand free to load the crossbow.
The Requirement of a free hand is a part of the ammunition property. Something that CBE does not alter in any way. And is usually either ignored or causes frustration by anybody suggesting the dual crossbow style on anything but a rogue which they handwave to reload between turns though strictly RaW it doesn't work that way for the rogue either.
Though I will point out that without the fighting style or the dual Wielder feat. you would only be able to wield two light weapons. so your looking at 1d6+stat+1d6 at best with a pair of short swords but you have to draw each individually which is bothersome on the first turn of combat. Dual Wielder would allow you to do something like dual longswords which is 1d8+stat+1d8 and gives you +1AC and the ability to draw both weapons as part of a single move or attack action (an important little distinction of it's own to item interactions). With just the Two Weapon Fighting Style you would manage 1d6+statx2. When you combine both of these things for optimal performance. your capable of something like 1d8+statx2 as well as +1ac and drawing both weapons as a single action.
Two Clubs, With Shillelagh on one of them does create a situation of 1d8+stat+1d4 however. This is why with my niche mention i mentioned getting the fighting style to at least get additional stat modifier damage in combats where you couldn't twin Shillelagh onto both weapons, though it would guarantee double stat modifier when you could twin it. The only thing it wouldn't do is give you the +1 ac or allow you to draw both clubs at once, which is a tiny issue but it could be worked around considering it is just a suboptimal niche build as I stated.
Dueling vs. CBE you are trading damage for defense as you do more damage with the CBE build.
TWF vs. CBE tends to be fairly even if in the favor of CBE thanks to the accuracy boost of archery. DPR builds generally favor any additions to accuracy.
Add in other feats and it gets muddy.... Dueling with a quarterstaff and shield with shillelagh and PAM is very good as you say since you get the BA attack and the defense boost.
CBE +Sharpshooter is one of the best DPR period in the game but you give up defense unless you have a buddy artificer who wants you give you a repeating handcrossbow so you can use a shield.
Overall it's about what you find important but the CBE/SS build is justifiably honored as it is very very powerful if damage is your aim.
Fateless - thank you for correcting my damage values I did mess them up a bit: TWF+DW= 1d8+stat x2; straight attack using two weapons: 1D6+stat x1D6; dual hand crossbows: 1D6+stat +1D6. The dual wielder does more damage on average. The archer with double/dual wielded hand crossbows is 10% more likely to hit (from the archery style NOT CBE) which means they are actually about even in damage. The dual swords adds +1 AC as well while the archer tries very hard to stay out of combat and possibly has considerably poorer armor. The hand crossbow man has to be close enough that a foe can close on them in one round with a melee attack or they have disadvantage effectively negating the +2 from the archery style. Again, I’m not seeing anything about CBE specifically that makes it superior and “required” for an archery build to make the archer superior to a melee ranger, especially a TWF ranger with the dual weapon feat.
archery + sharpshooter with a bow or sling is very powerful I’m not arguing that. If you are a crossbow user and took the archery style you need it as well. It’s even good for the first round of melee where you can get a sword attack and a point blank hand crossbow attack thanks to the bonus attack (1D8+stat+1D6) but after round 1 you only get a single sword attack as you don’t have a free hand to load the hand crossbow. IF you take the archery style and use a crossbow you need the feat just to be able to fire more than once a round when you get extra attacks. Which begs the question “Why would you do that?” I’m sorry but I just don’t see why a slinger or long/short bowman would bother with the feat - ever.
Fateless - thank you for correcting my damage values I did mess them up a bit: TWF+DW= 1d8+stat x2; straight attack using two weapons: 1D6+stat x1D6; dual hand crossbows: 1D6+stat +1D6. The dual wielder does more damage on average. The archer with double/dual wielded hand crossbows is 10% more likely to hit (from the archery style NOT CBE) which means they are actually about even in damage. The dual swords adds +1 AC as well while the archer tries very hard to stay out of combat and possibly has considerably poorer armor. The hand crossbow man has to be close enough that a foe can close on them in one round with a melee attack or they have disadvantage effectively negating the +2 from the archery style. Again, I’m not seeing anything about CBE specifically that makes it superior and “required” for an archery build to make the archer superior to a melee ranger, especially a TWF ranger with the dual weapon feat.
archery + sharpshooter with a bow or sling is very powerful I’m not arguing that. If you are a crossbow user and took the archery style you need it as well. It’s even good for the first round of melee where you can get a sword attack and a point blank hand crossbow attack thanks to the bonus attack (1D8+stat+1D6) but after round 1 you only get a single sword attack as you don’t have a free hand to load the hand crossbow. IF you take the archery style and use a crossbow you need the feat just to be able to fire more than once a round when you get extra attacks. Which begs the question “Why would you do that?” I’m sorry but I just don’t see why a slinger or long/short bowman would bother with the feat - ever.
Yeah as a bow man it makes little sense... But if you don't care what weapon you use (hint you will use a handcrossbow 100% of the time) then you will do silly amounts of damage.
I assume you are using 1 hand crossbow so the other hand is available to put the ammo in it. So at level 4 you get CBE and have a bonus action second shot from 30 feet or less.so your first shot does 3 (1d6) +3 (assuming a 16 Dex) but you hit 10% more often so you get 10% more damage (0.6) for 6.6 damage. Your second shot doesn’t get the stat bonus since you don’t have the two weapon fighting style (or have 2 weapons out) so it does 3.3 damage for a total of 9.9 (I’ll round it to 10) damage RAW.
The two weapon fighter takes dual wielding and switches to double rapiers to take advantage of his 16 Dex getting 2 x 1d8+3 damage for 14 total damage. He also improves his AC by one taking 5% less average damage each round. At 30’ initially by round 2 both are effectively in melee combat the hand crossbow man is doing 30% less damage and taking 5% more damage. I’m sorry but I just don’t see it.
if I take archery and sharpshooter with a longbow ( or heavy crossbow) yes I only get 1 shot at level 4 but I can stay back a ridiculous 600 (400) feet and still get that shot with a d8+3 (d10) damage for 7 (8) points and never be seen by the foes - I’m a real sniper. At level 5 I double my shots and damage because I get that second attack so 14 (16) damage for the sniper. The dual wielders add a second main attack but not a second bonus attack so the hand crossbow man jumps to 16.6 (17) damage while the TWF moves up to 21 damage. Sorry but I still don’t see where your hand crossbowman is so superior.
I assume you are using 1 hand crossbow so the other hand is available to put the ammo in it. So at level 4 you get CBE and have a bonus action second shot from 30 feet or less.so your first shot does 3 (1d6) +3 (assuming a 16 Dex) but you hit 10% more often so you get 10% more damage (0.6) for 6.6 damage. Your second shot doesn’t get the stat bonus since you don’t have the two weapon fighting style (or have 2 weapons out) so it does 3.3 damage for a total of 9.9 (I’ll round it to 10) damage RAW.
The two weapon fighter takes dual wielding and switches to double rapiers to take advantage of his 16 Dex getting 2 x 1d8+3 damage for 14 total damage. He also improves his AC by one taking 5% less average damage each round. At 30’ initially by round 2 both are effectively in melee combat the hand crossbow man is doing 30% less damage and taking 5% more damage. I’m sorry but I just don’t see it.
if I take archery and sharpshooter with a longbow ( or heavy crossbow) yes I only get 1 shot at level 4 but I can stay back a ridiculous 600 (400) feet and still get that shot with a d8+3 (d10) damage for 7 (8) points and never be seen by the foes - I’m a real sniper. At level 5 I double my shots and damage because I get that second attack so 14 (16) damage for the sniper. The dual wielders add a second main attack but not a second bonus attack so the hand crossbow man jumps to 16.6 (17) damage while the TWF moves up to 21 damage. Sorry but I still don’t see where your hand crossbowman is so superior.
You add in sharpshooter and you get an extra shot in with your bonus action?
That's like 14 5 more damage per round than with a longbow that can't make a bonus action with sharpshooter.
Sharpshooter also removes the 30ft part and now you can shoot out to 120 with no disadvantage.
Trust me this is not a new idea it's extensively covered.
I assume you are using 1 hand crossbow so the other hand is available to put the ammo in it. So at level 4 you get CBE and have a bonus action second shot from 30 feet or less.so your first shot does 3 (1d6) +3 (assuming a 16 Dex) but you hit 10% more often so you get 10% more damage (0.6) for 6.6 damage. Your second shot doesn’t get the stat bonus since you don’t have the two weapon fighting style (or have 2 weapons out) so it does 3.3 damage for a total of 9.9 (I’ll round it to 10) damage RAW.
The two weapon fighter takes dual wielding and switches to double rapiers to take advantage of his 16 Dex getting 2 x 1d8+3 damage for 14 total damage. He also improves his AC by one taking 5% less average damage each round. At 30’ initially by round 2 both are effectively in melee combat the hand crossbow man is doing 30% less damage and taking 5% more damage. I’m sorry but I just don’t see it.
if I take archery and sharpshooter with a longbow ( or heavy crossbow) yes I only get 1 shot at level 4 but I can stay back a ridiculous 600 (400) feet and still get that shot with a d8+3 (d10) damage for 7 (8) points and never be seen by the foes - I’m a real sniper. At level 5 I double my shots and damage because I get that second attack so 14 (16) damage for the sniper. The dual wielders add a second main attack but not a second bonus attack so the hand crossbow man jumps to 16.6 (17) damage while the TWF moves up to 21 damage. Sorry but I still don’t see where your hand crossbowman is so superior.
You add in sharpshooter and you get an extra shot in with your bonus action?
That's like 14 5 more damage per round than with a longbow that can't make a bonus action with sharpshooter.
Sharpshooter also removes the 30ft part and now you can shoot out to 120 with no disadvantage.
Trust me this is not a new idea it's extensively covered.
Your misreading - you take archery style at L2, you take sharpshooter at L4 that gives you the range but you only have one shot. THEN at level 5 you get a second attack giving you 2 shots. At level 5 you get 2 attacks and a single bonus action attack if you are a TWF OR “dual wielding” hand crossbows (actually firing, reloading the one and refiring with the bonus action).
For the hand crossbowman you don’t get CBE AND SS until level 8 at the earliest ( unless you are a variant human) so yes starting at level 8 your hand crossbowman can finally stand Safely back and plink away for 17 points average if all 3 shots hit. at that point your TWF can take medium armour master improving their AC by another 1 and negating the armor penalties on their stealth checks so they can wear that half plate armor and still sneak up on the foes. By L8 you are nearly half way thru your career assuming you made it that far. I started realizing this reality when one game I was in was just me (a TWF) and a dual crossbowman ( he actually had 2 hand crossbows strapped to his forearms almost like Spider-Man’s web shooters so both hands were technically free to put ammo into them). I consistently matched or out performed him in combat and it got me thinking and doing my own math. I’m well aware it’s been gone over a lot but not really in a blind test with identicals for controls. I tried using DDB to build all three thru level 5 just to see and compare. archers really get there extra damage from being able to add spell effects to their shots or from features like horde breaker and volley that give them extra attacks (but then you should be comparing the them to a TWF with horde breaker or whirlwind attack to keep things even.) for what a ranger archer should really look like check out my version of the arcane archer as a ranger here in the ranger forum and tell me what you think.
I assume you are using 1 hand crossbow so the other hand is available to put the ammo in it. So at level 4 you get CBE and have a bonus action second shot from 30 feet or less.so your first shot does 3 (1d6) +3 (assuming a 16 Dex) but you hit 10% more often so you get 10% more damage (0.6) for 6.6 damage. Your second shot doesn’t get the stat bonus since you don’t have the two weapon fighting style (or have 2 weapons out) so it does 3.3 damage for a total of 9.9 (I’ll round it to 10) damage RAW.
The two weapon fighter takes dual wielding and switches to double rapiers to take advantage of his 16 Dex getting 2 x 1d8+3 damage for 14 total damage. He also improves his AC by one taking 5% less average damage each round. At 30’ initially by round 2 both are effectively in melee combat the hand crossbow man is doing 30% less damage and taking 5% more damage. I’m sorry but I just don’t see it.
if I take archery and sharpshooter with a longbow ( or heavy crossbow) yes I only get 1 shot at level 4 but I can stay back a ridiculous 600 (400) feet and still get that shot with a d8+3 (d10) damage for 7 (8) points and never be seen by the foes - I’m a real sniper. At level 5 I double my shots and damage because I get that second attack so 14 (16) damage for the sniper. The dual wielders add a second main attack but not a second bonus attack so the hand crossbow man jumps to 16.6 (17) damage while the TWF moves up to 21 damage. Sorry but I still don’t see where your hand crossbowman is so superior.
You add in sharpshooter and you get an extra shot in with your bonus action?
That's like 14 5 more damage per round than with a longbow that can't make a bonus action with sharpshooter.
Sharpshooter also removes the 30ft part and now you can shoot out to 120 with no disadvantage.
Trust me this is not a new idea it's extensively covered.
Your misreading - you take archery style at L2, you take sharpshooter at L4 that gives you the range but you only have one shot. THEN at level 5 you get a second attack giving you 2 shots. At level 5 you get 2 attacks and a single bonus action attack if you are a TWF OR “dual wielding” hand crossbows (actually firing, reloading the one and refiring with the bonus action).
For the hand crossbowman you don’t get CBE AND SS until level 8 at the earliest ( unless you are a variant human) so yes starting at level 8 your hand crossbowman can finally stand Safely back and plink away for 17 points average if all 3 shots hit. at that point your TWF can take medium armour master improving their AC by another 1 and negating the armor penalties on their stealth checks so they can wear that half plate armor and still sneak up on the foes. By L8 you are nearly half way thru your career assuming you made it that far. I started realizing this reality when one game I was in was just me (a TWF) and a dual crossbowman ( he actually had 2 hand crossbows strapped to his forearms almost like Spider-Man’s web shooters so both hands were technically free to put ammo into them). I consistently matched or out performed him in combat and it got me thinking and doing my own math. I’m well aware it’s been gone over a lot but not really in a blind test with identicals for controls. I tried using DDB to build all three thru level 5 just to see and compare. archers really get there extra damage from being able to add spell effects to their shots or from features like horde breaker and volley that give them extra attacks (but then you should be comparing the them to a TWF with horde breaker or whirlwind attack to keep things even.) for what a ranger archer should really look like check out my version of the arcane archer as a ranger here in the ranger forum and tell me what you think.
True level 8 for anything but v human.
I did say CBE and twf are about equal until then it's off to the races for that combo.
I do think arcane Archer makes a lot more sense as a ranger too
I like your ideas for it!
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The bonus action attack.
It's like getting an extra attack
It's that and the fact that it removes the loading property from crossbows so that you have a 1d10 base option available for all attacks as often as not. Which is still not that much more of an increase besides not getting disadvantage from firing your weapon when somebody is close to you. It's basically a false equivalence argument mixed with a "Ranged is always better" mindset. So when having Damage similar to a 2 handed weapon using GWM as a ranged option and being able to use it in melee range s well, many default to the argument that it is automatically superior to everything else. But it's all white room mentality and are only considering it under favorable conditions and not ever considering various complications that ranged combat can have.
Also they tend to not be considering the fact that magical crossbows are much more rare, tend to not have as much variety, and things of that nature. So they really are just settling for the ability to use it in melee range more often than not. Saves Weapon Swapping but doesn't really make it superior.
That is what I thought, thanks. I think it was 4e that had a magic weapon called a staff bow that converted on command between a +1 longbow and a +1 quarterstaff which with shillelagh would do the same for bow wielders. Guess I’ll have to go find it and homebrew it.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
A few editions had a variety of such weapons. i think the one you mentioned might have even existed in 2nd ed and 3rd ed as well. i don't have the tome of magical items for second edition laying around to double check anymore though. It may or may not be in my stored stuff sadly.
But 5th edition seems to be largely lacking in those kinds of items except perhaps as homebrews.
That they are out there in some form makes it a lot easier to homebrew than if you were creating from scratch so it helps I just have to make the time.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
This is another reason why the "ranger's guide to equipping the party for travel" is the biggest hole in the current dnd 5e book list.
agreed
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The real power from CBE is paired with sharpshooter and the archery style.
Getting an extra +10 damage attack is massive for DPR. The math works out that with the style it's better to power attack when the enemy AC is 18+ which if you're a DM trying to balance the game that's how you do it with a CBE+SS build.
However, an extra attack with +2 to hit is very good. TWF gives you an extra attack but lacks the +2 so it's generally lower in DPR.
Because of the no DIS at close range with CBE you can compare them in just about any scenario and the CBE build will win out and then push ahead very fast if you pick up sharpshooter.
The magic item point is moot for two reasons:
1. All magic items are at DM disgression so everyone is at the mercy of their DM on what they get.
2. A +1 weapon can be anything so it's not hard to just give that one and be done with it.
If a DM isn't giving items to match your build and just randomly handing out stuff then sure it's unlikely to come up but that's also the worst way to do magic items IMO.
Sharpshooter and the archery style clearly fit together nicely that isn't in the question (and the -5 to hit to get +10 damage is from sharpshooter not CBE). but folks seem (and maybe its just my impression) to be wild about CBE by itself not as a part of a CBE+SS+AS combo. I can see that for a crossbow wielder its very good allowing them to get off as many shots as they have attacks each round and to fire at point blank range. the hand crossbow isn't bad either but I've never been real impressed with hand crossbows personally. if you are not a crossbow wielder then the hand crossbow probably doesn't count and the loading negation has no impact leaving you spending a feat to get to shoot your bow or throw your sling stone at point blank range as a proficient weapon rather than as a makeshift one. useful but useful enough for the feat? I'm having a hard time accepting that. So I'm having trouble seeing why a bow user (or sling user) would take it instead of sharpshooter or an increase in DEX at the ASI. if a foe gets that close to me I drop my bow (a free action) and draw my sword (a free action) and attack proficiently just as the CBE would allow me to do.so there is no difference there except that my strength bonus and Dex bonus may not be the same causing a small variation. generally magic items are, as you point out, so variable as to be outside of the realm of discussion in such a comparison.
So the question remains: IF I'm using a bow or sling why should I take CBE, how will it help me more than taking sharpshooter or even simply taking +2 to my DEX with the ASI?
(Or for that matter taking shield master or Medium armor master?)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
what bonus action attack? the hand crossbow? remember you are wielding a light (or heavy) crossbow which is a 2 handed weapon so you don't get the bonus action. You could be wielding a hand crossbow and get it but now you are always at 30' or less unless you have also taken sharpshooter (so at least level 8) so you get 2 1D6 + stat bonus attacks at 30'- range vs 2 1D6 + stat attacks with short swords closing from 30'- not much difference there to these eyes. and if you don't have TWF you can get 1D8 + stat +1D4 with a long sword and dagger and your bonus action. I just don't see where CBE makes a big difference ON ITS OWN compared to other options. (unless you are higher level and wielding a light or heavy crossbow)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
like I said. it's all in the perception of range. Even with the dual hand crossbow scenario it's all about the perception of range. Even though the dual crossbow scenario has it's own problems on any character that the extra attack feature. Because while CBE allows you to remove the loading property. It does not remove the requirement of having a hand free to load the crossbow.
The Requirement of a free hand is a part of the ammunition property. Something that CBE does not alter in any way. And is usually either ignored or causes frustration by anybody suggesting the dual crossbow style on anything but a rogue which they handwave to reload between turns though strictly RaW it doesn't work that way for the rogue either.
Though I will point out that without the fighting style or the dual Wielder feat. you would only be able to wield two light weapons. so your looking at 1d6+stat+1d6 at best with a pair of short swords but you have to draw each individually which is bothersome on the first turn of combat. Dual Wielder would allow you to do something like dual longswords which is 1d8+stat+1d8 and gives you +1AC and the ability to draw both weapons as part of a single move or attack action (an important little distinction of it's own to item interactions). With just the Two Weapon Fighting Style you would manage 1d6+statx2. When you combine both of these things for optimal performance. your capable of something like 1d8+statx2 as well as +1ac and drawing both weapons as a single action.
Two Clubs, With Shillelagh on one of them does create a situation of 1d8+stat+1d4 however. This is why with my niche mention i mentioned getting the fighting style to at least get additional stat modifier damage in combats where you couldn't twin Shillelagh onto both weapons, though it would guarantee double stat modifier when you could twin it. The only thing it wouldn't do is give you the +1 ac or allow you to draw both clubs at once, which is a tiny issue but it could be worked around considering it is just a suboptimal niche build as I stated.
If you use a handcrossbow you can attack with a bonus action:
Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow
and then fire it again as a bonus action? It does! Take a
look at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a
hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack
action to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand cross-
bow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for
both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the
hand crossbow between the two attacks.
Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://media.dnd.wizards.com/upload/articles/SA_Compendium.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwizveK9yqLyAhXohP0HHXRzCyMQFnoECAwQAg&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw1DOlrhmQuFkiUXQRNA0Snx
Dueling vs. CBE you are trading damage for defense as you do more damage with the CBE build.
TWF vs. CBE tends to be fairly even if in the favor of CBE thanks to the accuracy boost of archery. DPR builds generally favor any additions to accuracy.
Add in other feats and it gets muddy.... Dueling with a quarterstaff and shield with shillelagh and PAM is very good as you say since you get the BA attack and the defense boost.
CBE +Sharpshooter is one of the best DPR period in the game but you give up defense unless you have a buddy artificer who wants you give you a repeating handcrossbow so you can use a shield.
Overall it's about what you find important but the CBE/SS build is justifiably honored as it is very very powerful if damage is your aim.
Every day, I hope they errata the word "ranged" in between the words "one-handed" and "weapon" to the third part of the CBE feat.
Fateless - thank you for correcting my damage values I did mess them up a bit: TWF+DW= 1d8+stat x2; straight attack using two weapons: 1D6+stat x1D6; dual hand crossbows: 1D6+stat +1D6. The dual wielder does more damage on average. The archer with double/dual wielded hand crossbows is 10% more likely to hit (from the archery style NOT CBE) which means they are actually about even in damage. The dual swords adds +1 AC as well while the archer tries very hard to stay out of combat and possibly has considerably poorer armor. The hand crossbow man has to be close enough that a foe can close on them in one round with a melee attack or they have disadvantage effectively negating the +2 from the archery style. Again, I’m not seeing anything about CBE specifically that makes it superior and “required” for an archery build to make the archer superior to a melee ranger, especially a TWF ranger with the dual weapon feat.
archery + sharpshooter with a bow or sling is very powerful I’m not arguing that. If you are a crossbow user and took the archery style you need it as well. It’s even good for the first round of melee where you can get a sword attack and a point blank hand crossbow attack thanks to the bonus attack (1D8+stat+1D6) but after round 1 you only get a single sword attack as you don’t have a free hand to load the hand crossbow. IF you take the archery style and use a crossbow you need the feat just to be able to fire more than once a round when you get extra attacks. Which begs the question “Why would you do that?” I’m sorry but I just don’t see why a slinger or long/short bowman would bother with the feat - ever.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Yeah as a bow man it makes little sense... But if you don't care what weapon you use (hint you will use a handcrossbow 100% of the time) then you will do silly amounts of damage.
I assume you are using 1 hand crossbow so the other hand is available to put the ammo in it. So at level 4 you get CBE and have a bonus action second shot from 30 feet or less.so your first shot does 3 (1d6) +3 (assuming a 16 Dex) but you hit 10% more often so you get 10% more damage (0.6) for 6.6 damage. Your second shot doesn’t get the stat bonus since you don’t have the two weapon fighting style (or have 2 weapons out) so it does 3.3 damage for a total of 9.9 (I’ll round it to 10) damage RAW.
The two weapon fighter takes dual wielding and switches to double rapiers to take advantage of his 16 Dex getting 2 x 1d8+3 damage for 14 total damage. He also improves his AC by one taking 5% less average damage each round. At 30’ initially by round 2 both are effectively in melee combat the hand crossbow man is doing 30% less damage and taking 5% more damage. I’m sorry but I just don’t see it.
if I take archery and sharpshooter with a longbow ( or heavy crossbow) yes I only get 1 shot at level 4 but I can stay back a ridiculous 600 (400) feet and still get that shot with a d8+3 (d10) damage for 7 (8) points and never be seen by the foes - I’m a real sniper. At level 5 I double my shots and damage because I get that second attack so 14 (16) damage for the sniper. The dual wielders add a second main attack but not a second bonus attack so the hand crossbow man jumps to 16.6 (17) damage while the TWF moves up to 21 damage. Sorry but I still don’t see where your hand crossbowman is so superior.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You add in sharpshooter and you get an extra shot in with your bonus action?
That's like 14 5 more damage per round than with a longbow that can't make a bonus action with sharpshooter.
Sharpshooter also removes the 30ft part and now you can shoot out to 120 with no disadvantage.
Trust me this is not a new idea it's extensively covered.
Your misreading - you take archery style at L2, you take sharpshooter at L4 that gives you the range but you only have one shot. THEN at level 5 you get a second attack giving you 2 shots. At level 5 you get 2 attacks and a single bonus action attack if you are a TWF OR “dual wielding” hand crossbows (actually firing, reloading the one and refiring with the bonus action).
For the hand crossbowman you don’t get CBE AND SS until level 8 at the earliest ( unless you are a variant human) so yes starting at level 8 your hand crossbowman can finally stand Safely back and plink away for 17 points average if all 3 shots hit. at that point your TWF can take medium armour master improving their AC by another 1 and negating the armor penalties on their stealth checks so they can wear that half plate armor and still sneak up on the foes. By L8 you are nearly half way thru your career assuming you made it that far. I started realizing this reality when one game I was in was just me (a TWF) and a dual crossbowman ( he actually had 2 hand crossbows strapped to his forearms almost like Spider-Man’s web shooters so both hands were technically free to put ammo into them). I consistently matched or out performed him in combat and it got me thinking and doing my own math. I’m well aware it’s been gone over a lot but not really in a blind test with identicals for controls. I tried using DDB to build all three thru level 5 just to see and compare.
archers really get there extra damage from being able to add spell effects to their shots or from features like horde breaker and volley that give them extra attacks (but then you should be comparing the them to a TWF with horde breaker or whirlwind attack to keep things even.) for what a ranger archer should really look like check out my version of the arcane archer as a ranger here in the ranger forum and tell me what you think.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
True level 8 for anything but v human.
I did say CBE and twf are about equal until then it's off to the races for that combo.
I do think arcane Archer makes a lot more sense as a ranger too
I like your ideas for it!