I personally feel like ranger gets the short straw when it comes to combat ..great trackers but tend to fall on the la k luster side when it comes to fighting.....I personally feel like the ranger would be a better class if they were able to attack at least 3x (I mean majority of the time they are archers so I can’t see why not)..what are your thoughts
Rangers get spellcasting to supplement their combat abilities. Hunter's Mark can add damage to every attack and lasts a long time. Ranger subclasses usually add damaging class features as well, and Hunters get Multiattack at the same level Fighters get their second Extra Attack.
Personally on the spell side of things I give rangers a few spells they just know before making choices, akin to the Xanathar's concept for rangers (though the idea predates Xanathar's and is more based on paladin and cleric bonus spells).
All Rangers (so far) get Hunter's mark, plus an additional spells based on their Archetype (I've only done lists for core rangers to date). Hunters get: 3rd: Ensnaring Strike, Entangle 5th: Hold Person, Pass without Trace 9th: Elemental Weapon, Protection from Energy 13th: Grasping Vine, Hallucinatory Terrain 17th: Hold Monster, Tree Stride
In combat, hunter rangers are just fine, especially with a team with strong or even mediocre battlefield control. Beast Master rangers suffer in my experience primarily from the insanely small health pools of their beasts, as well as the fact that verbally commanding it to take an attack is not the same as using the attack action (even though you get to attack as part of verbally commanding it), which means per RAW you can't use bonus action attacks reliant on taking the attack action if you command it to attack (such as those granted by crossbow expert, pole arm master, monk multiclassing, or two weapon fighting). However I should note that both subclasses do indeed get to attack 3x per turn, with horde breaker for hunter (not to mention what volley does, if you're going ranged) or exceptional training for the beast master.
In fact, the Hunter ranger is attacking 3x per turn (potentially 4x if they have a bonus action attack) at level 5, and the beast master ranger is doing so at level 7, so from those levels until 11 they're doing *more* attacks than a fighter, while the fighter only exceeds their attacks per round if they action surge, or once they hit level 20 (by which point the campaign is potentially nearly over, if it even got that far). For Xanathar's Guide to Everything subclasses, Gloom Stalker gets an extra attack if one misses, and that *can* trigger off bonus action attacks, so it's more reliable than you might think; Horizon Walker gets 3 with distant step; and Monster Slayer is just undertuned.
In general, Rangers DO get 3 attacks, they're just spread out vs single target and may not apply if there is only one enemy. If that is happening frequently, or worse the majority of the time, it points to potentially poor encounter construction from the DM. Just my opinion.
I think that the issue is not necessarily pure power level. When we look at the XGtE subclasses, we see clear narrative and flavor with mechanics that clearly reflect their play styles in a meaningful way. The addition of these mechanics has helped to cover up the issues we see in the base class. The Hunter does this is in the same way, but mostly through raw power and damage over additional spell lists and interesting abilities.
The best current answer is to release material that does not require revisions to the PHB or releasing two classes by the same name. Mearls has said he does not want to do this as it confuses new players and makes you have to go to multiple sources to look up class abilities. The answer has to Target the specific problems in the Ranger class (and beastmaster) without going overboard to boost the other subclasses too much.
For this reason, I think that new spells in the Ranger spell lists would be the simplest answers. For example, we all know PHB Primeval Awareness is almost useless. Can the development team design a spell that utilizes it in some way? For example, If you expend a use of Primeval Awareness, you can cast the spell “Mark Quarry” which will also use the same spell slot used to cast awareness and allow you advantages to track and kill one of the creatures you detect? Or Hide in Plain Sight is kind of annoying, so could we design a spell that specifically takes advantage of not moving and staying hidden? Or if beast companions suck, can we design spells to boost them? What if the Ranger could cast an 8 hour passive boost to the beast for HP and Savinf Throws? What if the Ranger could cast a minute long rage for the beast? All without concentration?
i think everyone agrees Hunters Mark is the best spell, mostly because all the spells are concentration so you have to pick one and that is the most efficient choice. We are all trying to tackle revising class traits to repair this stuff, but maybe the answer is addressing spells. Adding some non concentration spells that specifically address the problems might be the best answer over trying to revise a base class.
1) Favored Enemy does not provide a combat boost and it is conditional. It seems like you as a player don't know if you will even use this ability during an entire day or week. I feel like Foe Slayer should have been a part of Favored Enemy.
2) Natural Explorer is also conditional. I do like the list of boosts you receive when in effect.
3) Land's Stride is Level 8 but Land Druid's can receive the ability at level 6. That seems a little odd to me. Just a little. Anybody else agree?
4) Hide in Plain Sight and Vanish don't seem that good as separate level 10 and level 14 abilities. Maybe they would be better as one level 14 ability? Especially if your party is in a situation where you just need to spy on somebody.
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"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
So for example, could we address #1 and #2 by making a new spell that could be released in a future book instead of attempting to revise a PHB class (which would eventually require either a confusing release strategy or waiting for 5.5 or something)? I am not a great homebrewer or balancer, but maybe....
Primeval Attunement: You become aware of your surroundings and adapt to what you learn.When you expend a spell slot on the Class Feature “Primeval Awareness” you may cast this spell for free. For the next 8 hours, you may pick an additional Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain as listed in the class features and include them as one of your selections for the duration. You do not gain an additional language from this spell.
In addition, you may add your Spellcasting modifier to all damage rolls against your Favored Enemies, all saving throws against the spells and abilities used by your Favored Enemies, and to all initiative rolls while in your Favored Terrain.
This essentially improves three core abilities of the Ranger with a single spell. It allows you to (with the cost of a spell slot while using Primeval Awareness) to add a Favored Enemy and Terrain type during an action for 8 hours. This to me essentially allows the Ranger to "scout" their environment and adapt for a small period of time. Additionally, it also adds to their combat effectiveness by showing that they are using their magic to enhance their battle readiness against what they learned about.
I think something like this (perhaps not exactly) could be released. The reason an option like this is better is because its not a revision, which would be more confusing and costly to the general player. I think this type of solution can also be applied to beastmaster. For example, the complaint about this subclass is that it is more efficient to use your own attacks + Hunter's Mark (with your magic items) than the beast attacks. Well, why not introduce a new spell like above for them?
Mystic Coordination (concentration/1st Level): You are magically attuned to your beast. For one hour, you can create a powerful connection with your animal companion. Whenever your companion hits an opponent with an attack, he assists you in hitting the target with deadly force. If you hit an opponent that your creature already struck within the same turn, you can add your companion's damage die from the attack they used (without modifiers) to any damage roll you make against them.
Or
Primal Rage (2nd Level): You can magically enhance your animal companion's natural instincts. For one minute, your beast enters a state of fury and becomes enhanced. Their attacks count as magical while they are in this state and can add your wisdom modifier to all damage rolls. They also gain resistance to all non-magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
There seem to be a fair few spells (not just for the ranger) that are essentially just a "concentrate until used" effect. These seem an odd choice for concentration, given an action has typically been given up for the spell to use it later. It would seem to me many of those spells could be better as simply not having concentration but instead limit them to only able to activate one per turn if under the influence of more than one (after all the same spell doesn't stack).
As to ranger specific stuff: Favored enemy would likely be more useful if a ranger could change it through some action, say as part of a long rest or some 'study' time where they learn about the current creatures. I'm not overly convinced there really needs to be any mechanical combat bonuses directly tied to the favored enemies, especially given rangers could learn about possible tactics of the creatures thus giving them a tactical advantage anyway.
Natural Explorer has much the same issue in its lack of flexibility as well. For the most part the general bonuses could apply to any terrain after traveling in it for an hour, as the ranger learns the specifics of how they can apply their skill sets to the region that is being traveled through. The double proficiency could apply after a long rest within the terrain.
Essentially both could be good to have some way to attune to the desired option, much in the way the pact of the blade warlock or a familiar have flexibility to change aspects as the need is required, but not frequently enough that some forethought isn't required. This would give them the flexibility
Primeval Awareness seems more like a Rangers version of channel divinity thus to me feels like it would be more akin to a once per short rest ability than essentially a ranger only spell or alternatively like a Bard's inspiration where it can be used a number of times per long rest. A third alternative could be to essentially make it a Ranger ritual (10 minutes to use) similar to the revised ranger version, essentially going for a bit of a middle ground (between core and revised) in it taking a bit longer but be unlimited in use. Perhaps even a use of Primeval Awareness could be a catalyst to change favored enemy and/or Natural explorer choices as an additional side effect, in that the ranger is attuning to the current terrain and nearby enemies.
Land Stride seems ok ribbon ability to me at 8th, it shows that kinship between being tied to the land but requires a tad more training than a Druid of the Land. Even though revised Ranger changed it to a dash as a bonus action (which seems a bit less useful).
Hide in Plain Sight and Vanish I agree with Domcarlina it really would be better as two parts of the 10th level ability where the Ranger just becomes better at hiding in general. What a Ranger would then get at 14th level I'm not too sure on. After all a Rogue has had the ability to hide as a bonus action since 2nd level, so it is not that powerful for a 10th level ability (and seems a bit lack luster as a 14th).
Archetypes: One of the big curiosities for me with core was that Hunters Prey gives an option for an additional attack or damage for free or as a reaction, while the Beast Master effectively gives up their attack to get an extra attack done by their companion. While typically the animal companion will either be just as good as the Ranger for accuracy and damage and often worse, yet also as another creature would use up more resources as well. The revised beast master doesn't seem to have this limitation from what I can tell, but they don't tend to get the additional attack at 5th level either, instead gaining a reactive attack from their companion, perhaps both would have been better to have at 5th, given the resource drain of the companion.
Primeval Awareness seems more like a Rangers version of channel divinity thus to me feels like it would be more akin to a once per short rest ability than essentially a ranger only spell or alternatively like a Bard's inspiration where it can be used a number of times per long rest. A third alternative could be to essentially make it a Ranger ritual (10 minutes to use) similar to the revised ranger version, essentially going for a bit of a middle ground (between core and revised) in it taking a bit longer but be unlimited in use. Perhaps even a use of Primeval Awareness could be a catalyst to change favored enemy and/or Natural explorer choices as an additional side effect, in that the ranger is attuning to the current terrain and nearby enemies.
Hide in Plain Sight and Vanish I agree with Domcarlina it really would be better as two parts of the 10th level ability where the Ranger just becomes better at hiding in general. What a Ranger would then get at 14th level I'm not too sure on. After all a Rogue has had the ability to hide as a bonus action since 2nd level, so it is not that powerful for a 10th level ability (and seems a bit lack luster as a 14th).
Thank you for agreeing with me on Hide in Plain Sight + Vanish.
I like that idea of expending a use of Primeval Awareness to change Natural Explorer or Favored Enemy. I think it adds to the Primal Magic flavor that belies both features. Actually, that might be a really good Level 6 ability in addition to NE and FE Improvement
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"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
I personally feel like ranger gets the short straw when it comes to combat ..great trackers but tend to fall on the la k luster side when it comes to fighting.....I personally feel like the ranger would be a better class if they were able to attack at least 3x (I mean majority of the time they are archers so I can’t see why not)..what are your thoughts
Rangers are capable of putting out a ton of damage. If you are lagging behind in combat, you’re doing something wrong.
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I personally feel like ranger gets the short straw when it comes to combat ..great trackers but tend to fall on the la k luster side when it comes to fighting.....I personally feel like the ranger would be a better class if they were able to attack at least 3x (I mean majority of the time they are archers so I can’t see why not)..what are your thoughts
Rangers get spellcasting to supplement their combat abilities. Hunter's Mark can add damage to every attack and lasts a long time. Ranger subclasses usually add damaging class features as well, and Hunters get Multiattack at the same level Fighters get their second Extra Attack.
Honestly, one thing that I think would help a ranger is if they could prepare spells instead of just having a small limit of spells.
Personally on the spell side of things I give rangers a few spells they just know before making choices, akin to the Xanathar's concept for rangers (though the idea predates Xanathar's and is more based on paladin and cleric bonus spells).
All Rangers (so far) get Hunter's mark, plus an additional spells based on their Archetype (I've only done lists for core rangers to date).
Hunters get:
3rd: Ensnaring Strike, Entangle
5th: Hold Person, Pass without Trace
9th: Elemental Weapon, Protection from Energy
13th: Grasping Vine, Hallucinatory Terrain
17th: Hold Monster, Tree Stride
Beast Masters get:
3rd: Bless, Speak with Animals
5th: Beast Sense, Enhance Ability
9th: Conjure Animals, Revivfy
13th: Dominate Beast, Locate Creature
17th: Insect Plague, (Rary's) Telepathic Bond
I find Druids preparing spells rather than just knowing them the oddity, so Rangers knowing spells seems to fit for me.
- Loswaith
Too many ranger spells require concentration. So if they want to keep their hunter's mark going, then majority of their spell list is useless.
In combat, hunter rangers are just fine, especially with a team with strong or even mediocre battlefield control. Beast Master rangers suffer in my experience primarily from the insanely small health pools of their beasts, as well as the fact that verbally commanding it to take an attack is not the same as using the attack action (even though you get to attack as part of verbally commanding it), which means per RAW you can't use bonus action attacks reliant on taking the attack action if you command it to attack (such as those granted by crossbow expert, pole arm master, monk multiclassing, or two weapon fighting). However I should note that both subclasses do indeed get to attack 3x per turn, with horde breaker for hunter (not to mention what volley does, if you're going ranged) or exceptional training for the beast master.
In fact, the Hunter ranger is attacking 3x per turn (potentially 4x if they have a bonus action attack) at level 5, and the beast master ranger is doing so at level 7, so from those levels until 11 they're doing *more* attacks than a fighter, while the fighter only exceeds their attacks per round if they action surge, or once they hit level 20 (by which point the campaign is potentially nearly over, if it even got that far). For Xanathar's Guide to Everything subclasses, Gloom Stalker gets an extra attack if one misses, and that *can* trigger off bonus action attacks, so it's more reliable than you might think; Horizon Walker gets 3 with distant step; and Monster Slayer is just undertuned.
In general, Rangers DO get 3 attacks, they're just spread out vs single target and may not apply if there is only one enemy. If that is happening frequently, or worse the majority of the time, it points to potentially poor encounter construction from the DM. Just my opinion.
I think that the issue is not necessarily pure power level. When we look at the XGtE subclasses, we see clear narrative and flavor with mechanics that clearly reflect their play styles in a meaningful way. The addition of these mechanics has helped to cover up the issues we see in the base class. The Hunter does this is in the same way, but mostly through raw power and damage over additional spell lists and interesting abilities.
The best current answer is to release material that does not require revisions to the PHB or releasing two classes by the same name. Mearls has said he does not want to do this as it confuses new players and makes you have to go to multiple sources to look up class abilities. The answer has to Target the specific problems in the Ranger class (and beastmaster) without going overboard to boost the other subclasses too much.
For this reason, I think that new spells in the Ranger spell lists would be the simplest answers. For example, we all know PHB Primeval Awareness is almost useless. Can the development team design a spell that utilizes it in some way? For example, If you expend a use of Primeval Awareness, you can cast the spell “Mark Quarry” which will also use the same spell slot used to cast awareness and allow you advantages to track and kill one of the creatures you detect? Or Hide in Plain Sight is kind of annoying, so could we design a spell that specifically takes advantage of not moving and staying hidden? Or if beast companions suck, can we design spells to boost them? What if the Ranger could cast an 8 hour passive boost to the beast for HP and Savinf Throws? What if the Ranger could cast a minute long rage for the beast? All without concentration?
i think everyone agrees Hunters Mark is the best spell, mostly because all the spells are concentration so you have to pick one and that is the most efficient choice. We are all trying to tackle revising class traits to repair this stuff, but maybe the answer is addressing spells. Adding some non concentration spells that specifically address the problems might be the best answer over trying to revise a base class.
In my opinion, the core class abilities are lackluster for different reasons. We had another thread about it here.
1) Favored Enemy does not provide a combat boost and it is conditional. It seems like you as a player don't know if you will even use this ability during an entire day or week. I feel like Foe Slayer should have been a part of Favored Enemy.
2) Natural Explorer is also conditional. I do like the list of boosts you receive when in effect.
3) Land's Stride is Level 8 but Land Druid's can receive the ability at level 6. That seems a little odd to me. Just a little. Anybody else agree?
4) Hide in Plain Sight and Vanish don't seem that good as separate level 10 and level 14 abilities. Maybe they would be better as one level 14 ability? Especially if your party is in a situation where you just need to spy on somebody.
"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
So for example, could we address #1 and #2 by making a new spell that could be released in a future book instead of attempting to revise a PHB class (which would eventually require either a confusing release strategy or waiting for 5.5 or something)? I am not a great homebrewer or balancer, but maybe....
Primeval Attunement: You become aware of your surroundings and adapt to what you learn. When you expend a spell slot on the Class Feature “Primeval Awareness” you may cast this spell for free. For the next 8 hours, you may pick an additional Favored Enemy and Favored Terrain as listed in the class features and include them as one of your selections for the duration. You do not gain an additional language from this spell.
In addition, you may add your Spellcasting modifier to all damage rolls against your Favored Enemies, all saving throws against the spells and abilities used by your Favored Enemies, and to all initiative rolls while in your Favored Terrain.
This essentially improves three core abilities of the Ranger with a single spell. It allows you to (with the cost of a spell slot while using Primeval Awareness) to add a Favored Enemy and Terrain type during an action for 8 hours. This to me essentially allows the Ranger to "scout" their environment and adapt for a small period of time. Additionally, it also adds to their combat effectiveness by showing that they are using their magic to enhance their battle readiness against what they learned about.
I think something like this (perhaps not exactly) could be released. The reason an option like this is better is because its not a revision, which would be more confusing and costly to the general player. I think this type of solution can also be applied to beastmaster. For example, the complaint about this subclass is that it is more efficient to use your own attacks + Hunter's Mark (with your magic items) than the beast attacks. Well, why not introduce a new spell like above for them?
Mystic Coordination (concentration/1st Level): You are magically attuned to your beast. For one hour, you can create a powerful connection with your animal companion. Whenever your companion hits an opponent with an attack, he assists you in hitting the target with deadly force. If you hit an opponent that your creature already struck within the same turn, you can add your companion's damage die from the attack they used (without modifiers) to any damage roll you make against them.
Or
Primal Rage (2nd Level): You can magically enhance your animal companion's natural instincts. For one minute, your beast enters a state of fury and becomes enhanced. Their attacks count as magical while they are in this state and can add your wisdom modifier to all damage rolls. They also gain resistance to all non-magical bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage.
There seem to be a fair few spells (not just for the ranger) that are essentially just a "concentrate until used" effect. These seem an odd choice for concentration, given an action has typically been given up for the spell to use it later. It would seem to me many of those spells could be better as simply not having concentration but instead limit them to only able to activate one per turn if under the influence of more than one (after all the same spell doesn't stack).
As to ranger specific stuff:
Favored enemy would likely be more useful if a ranger could change it through some action, say as part of a long rest or some 'study' time where they learn about the current creatures. I'm not overly convinced there really needs to be any mechanical combat bonuses directly tied to the favored enemies, especially given rangers could learn about possible tactics of the creatures thus giving them a tactical advantage anyway.
Natural Explorer has much the same issue in its lack of flexibility as well. For the most part the general bonuses could apply to any terrain after traveling in it for an hour, as the ranger learns the specifics of how they can apply their skill sets to the region that is being traveled through. The double proficiency could apply after a long rest within the terrain.
Essentially both could be good to have some way to attune to the desired option, much in the way the pact of the blade warlock or a familiar have flexibility to change aspects as the need is required, but not frequently enough that some forethought isn't required. This would give them the flexibility
Primeval Awareness seems more like a Rangers version of channel divinity thus to me feels like it would be more akin to a once per short rest ability than essentially a ranger only spell or alternatively like a Bard's inspiration where it can be used a number of times per long rest. A third alternative could be to essentially make it a Ranger ritual (10 minutes to use) similar to the revised ranger version, essentially going for a bit of a middle ground (between core and revised) in it taking a bit longer but be unlimited in use.
Perhaps even a use of Primeval Awareness could be a catalyst to change favored enemy and/or Natural explorer choices as an additional side effect, in that the ranger is attuning to the current terrain and nearby enemies.
Land Stride seems ok ribbon ability to me at 8th, it shows that kinship between being tied to the land but requires a tad more training than a Druid of the Land. Even though revised Ranger changed it to a dash as a bonus action (which seems a bit less useful).
Hide in Plain Sight and Vanish I agree with Domcarlina it really would be better as two parts of the 10th level ability where the Ranger just becomes better at hiding in general. What a Ranger would then get at 14th level I'm not too sure on. After all a Rogue has had the ability to hide as a bonus action since 2nd level, so it is not that powerful for a 10th level ability (and seems a bit lack luster as a 14th).
Archetypes:
One of the big curiosities for me with core was that Hunters Prey gives an option for an additional attack or damage for free or as a reaction, while the Beast Master effectively gives up their attack to get an extra attack done by their companion. While typically the animal companion will either be just as good as the Ranger for accuracy and damage and often worse, yet also as another creature would use up more resources as well. The revised beast master doesn't seem to have this limitation from what I can tell, but they don't tend to get the additional attack at 5th level either, instead gaining a reactive attack from their companion, perhaps both would have been better to have at 5th, given the resource drain of the companion.
- Loswaith
"Time is money. Nobody knows how much time they have, but you can always count how much time you spent. So spend it wisely."
Rangers are capable of putting out a ton of damage. If you are lagging behind in combat, you’re doing something wrong.