Sorry, I'm a little confused as to how spellcasting works when multiclassing. How exactly does 3 levels in cleric translate to 5 uses of 4th level spells?
Sorry, I'm a little confused as to how spellcasting works when multiclassing. How exactly does 3 levels in cleric translate to 5 uses of 4th level spells?
Look at the multiclasing table in the PHB, it shows how you calculate spell slots when mixing classes. Clerics are full casters so even a single level dip can boost the slots of a half caster like the ranger
I would honestly recommend horizon walker 15 pally 5 because the spectral defense ability is nothing to laugh at. Against most enemies it will half all of their damage since it give you resistance for the whole turn, not just the attack. Plus you can stack smite with planar warrior for up to 7d8 plus weapon damage on one it. Pretty powerful if you ask me
What about melee based Horizon Walker/Battle Master? Does anyone have experience with playing that multi class? Those seem like they'd mix well on the surface? Almost feels like a portal jumping swashbuckler.
What about melee based Horizon Walker/Battle Master? Does anyone have experience with playing that multi class? Those seem like they'd mix well on the surface? Almost feels like a portal jumping swashbuckler.
I'm sure it would work well what with all the good fighter passives and maneuvers available. But can't see any major reason to go past fighter lvl 4 so that extra attack doesn't stack.
Unless you go for a mainly fighter build BM lvl 11 for 3 attacks and an extra+higher superiority die.
Horizon Walker probably mixes better with Cleric than it does Rogue and better with Rogue than it does Fighter - Horizon Walkers are really, really big fans of making one big attack (like Rogues are - the issue is both classes want to use their BA to make the big attack happen), and the single biggest draw of a Fighter dip is the Action Surge. You could try mixing Horizon Walker with an actual Swashbuckler or even a Scout for truly fervent commitment to mobility. I'd suggest a Phantom, but you need to reach L9 for Phantoms to get really good. Arcane Trickster will have terrible slot progression, with both the AT's progression and the HW's being slowed, so probably best avoided. As for Cleric, well, 6 levels of Peace Cleric will get you even more teleporting....
Sorry, I'm a little confused as to how spellcasting works when multiclassing. How exactly does 3 levels in cleric translate to 5 uses of 4th level spells?
Look at the multiclasing table in the PHB, it shows how you calculate spell slots when mixing classes. Clerics are full casters so even a single level dip can boost the slots of a half caster like the ranger
Yes it boosts spell casting but you don’t get 5 level 4 spells - ever. It sounds like you are rather reading that as being separate castings for each class when it’s the total castings for the combined classes. And even then 4th level maxes out with 3 spells castable. Only level 1 gets 4 slots and no level other than cantrips get more. OR you are counting updated slots used for L4 spells. I assume you are counting the L5 slots as L4 spells upcastings? That would be the only way to cast 5 “L4” spells and even that is technically wrong for a L13R/L3C since the ranger rounds down to 6 not up to 7 so you would be a L9 caster with 3 L4 slots and 1 L5 slot not a L10 caster with 3L4 slots and 2L5slots to use.
1) I am always surprised to hear folks saying that the upper level abilities of a ranger are weak - in this case HW15 let’s you cut the damage from any one attack in a round in half - how is that weak? Because it doesn’t let you cut all damage in half? It still cuts your foe’s nova damage attack in half which is huge or it cuts that ancient dragon’s breath weapon in half which is , again, huge. Then, feral senses is blind fighting in disguise giving you a melee fighting style for all those darkness/fog cloud/ etc you like to throw at your foes- remember if you can do it to the , they should be doing it to you too. Then the capstone a guaranteed +3 to +5 (depending on your wisdom bonus) to hit any one time in a round turning those high AC misses into hits when you most need them. 2) if you are going to skip out on the top levels, especially as an archer ranger and HW to go to R16 and get that HW15 ability and the L16 ASI then go fighter for 4 levels getting the final ASI and the basic fighter class and subclass abilities than to go R15/C/D5 to get L3 spells. 3) if you are going caster MC and have the stats you might want to consider R16/C2/D2 to get the L 16 ASI and then go C2/D2 to get the basic abilities and spells of both classes if you have the stats. That makes you a L12 caster with 5 cantrips access to wildshape (mostly for recon), turning, Druid circle spells and base ability and clerical domain spells and base abilities.
1) I am always surprised to hear folks saying that the upper level abilities of a ranger are weak - in this case HW15 let’s you cut the damage from any one attack in a round in half - how is that weak? Because it doesn’t let you cut all damage in half? It still cuts your foe’s nova damage attack in half which is huge or it cuts that ancient dragon’s breath weapon in half which is , again, huge.
It should be noted the ability is literally uncanny dodge but worse, since uncanny dodge isn't resistance and will therefore stack with actual resistance if you get it from elsewhere. And Rogues get Uncanny Dodge at 5, not 15.
It's certainly not weak - I've never heard of anyone badmouthing Uncanny Dodge! - but many people expect high-level abilities to be better than low-level ones, and that's just not how 5E is designed. There's a lot of front-loading.
Then, feral senses is blind fighting in disguise giving you a melee fighting style for all those darkness/fog cloud/ etc you like to throw at your foes- remember if you can do it to the , they should be doing it to you too.
Feral Senses has better range - the no-disadvantage ability is range infinity, and the invisibility-detector is range 30, not 10 - but Rangers have had Blind Fighting since level 2 at that point, and bear in mind your fog cloud example won't work in general, because Feral Senses does nothing at all to help you find the target you want to attack. If you guess correctly where your enemy is you'll make a flat roll instead of with disadvantage, for sure, but I for one would rather know where the enemy is and roll with disadvantage than fire randomly and hope I get to make a flat roll.
Feral Senses is absolutely not a bad ability compared to some others, for sure. For example, the Barbarian L18 ability is unfathomably bad and can't even try to hold a candle to Feral Senses. On the other hand, the Wizard L18 ability is radically better. I'm not here to say it's the worst or best thing ever, I'm just pointing out realities.
Then the capstone a guaranteed +3 to +5 (depending on your wisdom bonus) to hit any one time in a round turning those high AC misses into hits when you most need them.
The single biggest problem with the capstone is that it isn't remotely guaranteed because it only works if you guessed your enemy's potential type correctly back when you were leveling.
2) if you are going to skip out on the top levels, especially as an archer ranger and HW to go to R16 and get that HW15 ability and the L16 ASI then go fighter for 4 levels getting the final ASI and the basic fighter class and subclass abilities than to go R15/C/D5 to get L3 spells. 3) if you are going caster MC and have the stats you might want to consider R16/C2/D2 to get the L 16 ASI and then go C2/D2 to get the basic abilities and spells of both classes if you have the stats. That makes you a L12 caster with 5 cantrips access to wildshape (mostly for recon), turning, Druid circle spells and base ability and clerical domain spells and base abilities.
Most Channel Divinities aren't worth the second cleric level, but you might not have anything better to take. You need 2 Druid levels to make any amount of Druid worth taking, but I'm not sure what Circle would work well with Horizon Walker. If I were building it myself to try it, I'd probably do it with Stars.
I would never consider bailing on Ranger at 15 to multiclass into another Spellcaster, because I'm allergic to letting the multiclassing rules nerf my slot progression. I would only ever bail on an even number of Ranger levels. R12, R14, and R16 are the only options I would seriously consider here, and for sure R16 would be the most likely.
Considering that your MCing at such a high level comparing the benefits to lower level ones isn’t unreasonable, They might not be the most powerful benefits at their levels but they are definitely not weak. If you are going the caster route you do have some options: 1) R16/D2/C2 as I said before - the problems here quindraco described - which Druid circle and poor channel divinity, I was mostly looking at the extra spells you get especially cantrips and the full caster levels to boost slots. 2) 4 levels of either - this at least gets you the last ASI. Of the 2 Druid is probably a little bit better as you also a wildshape improvement. 3) doing 3/1 either way - this gets you L2 spells in the L3 class but nothing else and your losing an ASI to do it. 4) instead of going for religious magic if you have the stats for it go arcane - my favorite is sorceror either draconic or storm work well with rangers and 4 levels get you the ASI, 5 cantrips, L2 spells, 4 levels of casting vs the 2 straight ranger would get you and metamagic ( limited but available when needed), you do miss out on Your 1L5 spell however. You could go wizard or warlock here but personally I consider them poorer choices.
The complaint, as I understand it, isn't that those abilities aren't useful. It's that they're not Tiers 3/4 useful. YMMV on this, of course.
Personally, I find Vanish to be extremely underrated. The general complaint is that it's just a weaker Cunning Action 11 levels later. But.
1. As of Tasha's, Rangers get myriad ways of mimicking the other options of Cunning Action via their spells (Zephyr Strike, Longstrider, and even Ashardalon's Stride.) So really, all you're missing is Hide as a BA.
2. The more important aspect of the feature isn't the Hide, it's not being able to get tracked non-magically. Which, yes, you can mimick with Pass Without Trace. But now it becomes an always-on passive ability that costs you nothing. Combine with Nondetection (which you get at 9th-level,) and now you can't be tracked in any way, shape, or form. The non-combat applications for this are huge. Bonus points if you're a Gloom Stalker for invisibility, or if you use Nature's Veil judiciously.
because Feral Senses does nothing at all to help you find the target you want to attack.
Lots of good points in you last post.........now if only the ranger class had some boost to skills locating targets. All targets might be too powerful but if it was based on terrain or creature type it might just create some interesting skill interaction. too bad the ranger class doesn't get that.
All joking aside, Your points were clear and addressed the major complaints. well done.
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it. given the wording I would say it is allowing you to know where the bad guys are at least those within range of melee weapons. Your other senses like hearing allow you to locate where they are in terms of direction and distance so that you are not blindly swinging that is why you don’t have disadvantage. Try closing your eyes and have someone walk around talking or playing noise on their phone, you can tell which direction and how far away they are this just takes it to the next level something like the guy out in California that bicycles by echolocation.
1) I am always surprised to hear folks saying that the upper level abilities of a ranger are weak - in this case HW15 let’s you cut the damage from any one attack in a round in half - how is that weak? Because it doesn’t let you cut all damage in half? It still cuts your foe’s nova damage attack in half which is huge or it cuts that ancient dragon’s breath weapon in half which is , again, huge.
It should be noted the ability is literally uncanny dodge but worse, since uncanny dodge isn't resistance and will therefore stack with actual resistance if you get it from elsewhere. And Rogues get Uncanny Dodge at 5, not 15.
It's certainly not weak - I've never heard of anyone badmouthing Uncanny Dodge! - but many people expect high-level abilities to be better than low-level ones, and that's just not how 5E is designed. There's a lot of front-loading.
Then, feral senses is blind fighting in disguise giving you a melee fighting style for all those darkness/fog cloud/ etc you like to throw at your foes- remember if you can do it to the , they should be doing it to you too.
Feral Senses has better range - the no-disadvantage ability is range infinity, and the invisibility-detector is range 30, not 10 - but Rangers have had Blind Fighting since level 2 at that point, and bear in mind your fog cloud example won't work in general, because Feral Senses does nothing at all to help you find the target you want to attack. If you guess correctly where your enemy is you'll make a flat roll instead of with disadvantage, for sure, but I for one would rather know where the enemy is and roll with disadvantage than fire randomly and hope I get to make a flat roll.
Feral Senses is absolutely not a bad ability compared to some others, for sure. For example, the Barbarian L18 ability is unfathomably bad and can't even try to hold a candle to Feral Senses. On the other hand, the Wizard L18 ability is radically better. I'm not here to say it's the worst or best thing ever, I'm just pointing out realities.
Then the capstone a guaranteed +3 to +5 (depending on your wisdom bonus) to hit any one time in a round turning those high AC misses into hits when you most need them.
The single biggest problem with the capstone is that it isn't remotely guaranteed because it only works if you guessed your enemy's potential type correctly back when you were leveling.
2) if you are going to skip out on the top levels, especially as an archer ranger and HW to go to R16 and get that HW15 ability and the L16 ASI then go fighter for 4 levels getting the final ASI and the basic fighter class and subclass abilities than to go R15/C/D5 to get L3 spells. 3) if you are going caster MC and have the stats you might want to consider R16/C2/D2 to get the L 16 ASI and then go C2/D2 to get the basic abilities and spells of both classes if you have the stats. That makes you a L12 caster with 5 cantrips access to wildshape (mostly for recon), turning, Druid circle spells and base ability and clerical domain spells and base abilities.
Most Channel Divinities aren't worth the second cleric level, but you might not have anything better to take. You need 2 Druid levels to make any amount of Druid worth taking, but I'm not sure what Circle would work well with Horizon Walker. If I were building it myself to try it, I'd probably do it with Stars.
I would never consider bailing on Ranger at 15 to multiclass into another Spellcaster, because I'm allergic to letting the multiclassing rules nerf my slot progression. I would only ever bail on an even number of Ranger levels. R12, R14, and R16 are the only options I would seriously consider here, and for sure R16 would be the most likely.
I can’t help that 5e is front loaded but if your a L14 HW do you take 5 levels of rogue to get uncanny dodge or do you take spectral defense as a L15 ranger? Further the wording of spectral defense is another WOtC confusion “resistance to all of the attack’s damage” is it resistance ie half damage or is it all the damage of that one attack? I can see players and DMs fighting over the interpretation of the wording.
i provided an answer about feral senses in a previous post
if your playing a PHB rAnger then yes if you picked your favored wrong you have can’t do much but if the bbeg is one then it’s an awesome benefit. Tasha’s favored foe solves the problem and still meets the needed wording (hopefully that was done on purpose) making it a much stronger ability.
im with you on bailing at 15 it’s not worth it for a casting MC. I can see actually going to 17 and then switching to a full caster for 3 levels so you get the ranger L5 spell and the caster’s L2 spells but you do lose the last ASI which could be important.
for Druid circle your really only looking at the L2 abilities and circle of the land gives you an extra cantrip (3/4), natural recovery (let’s you regain a couple of spell slots once/LR, and the L3 spells of the terrain you choose (Coast gives you Mirror image and Misty step - both great spells)
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Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
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Sorry, I'm a little confused as to how spellcasting works when multiclassing. How exactly does 3 levels in cleric translate to 5 uses of 4th level spells?
Look at the multiclasing table in the PHB, it shows how you calculate spell slots when mixing classes. Clerics are full casters so even a single level dip can boost the slots of a half caster like the ranger
I would honestly recommend horizon walker 15 pally 5 because the spectral defense ability is nothing to laugh at. Against most enemies it will half all of their damage since it give you resistance for the whole turn, not just the attack. Plus you can stack smite with planar warrior for up to 7d8 plus weapon damage on one it. Pretty powerful if you ask me
What about melee based Horizon Walker/Battle Master? Does anyone have experience with playing that multi class? Those seem like they'd mix well on the surface? Almost feels like a portal jumping swashbuckler.
I'm sure it would work well what with all the good fighter passives and maneuvers available. But can't see any major reason to go past fighter lvl 4 so that extra attack doesn't stack.
Unless you go for a mainly fighter build BM lvl 11 for 3 attacks and an extra+higher superiority die.
Horizon Walker probably mixes better with Cleric than it does Rogue and better with Rogue than it does Fighter - Horizon Walkers are really, really big fans of making one big attack (like Rogues are - the issue is both classes want to use their BA to make the big attack happen), and the single biggest draw of a Fighter dip is the Action Surge. You could try mixing Horizon Walker with an actual Swashbuckler or even a Scout for truly fervent commitment to mobility. I'd suggest a Phantom, but you need to reach L9 for Phantoms to get really good. Arcane Trickster will have terrible slot progression, with both the AT's progression and the HW's being slowed, so probably best avoided. As for Cleric, well, 6 levels of Peace Cleric will get you even more teleporting....
Yes it boosts spell casting but you don’t get 5 level 4 spells - ever. It sounds like you are rather reading that as being separate castings for each class when it’s the total castings for the combined classes. And even then 4th level maxes out with 3 spells castable. Only level 1 gets 4 slots and no level other than cantrips get more. OR you are counting updated slots used for L4 spells. I assume you are counting the L5 slots as L4 spells upcastings? That would be the only way to cast 5 “L4” spells and even that is technically wrong for a L13R/L3C since the ranger rounds down to 6 not up to 7 so you would be a L9 caster with 3 L4 slots and 1 L5 slot not a L10 caster with 3L4 slots and 2L5slots to use.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Some other thoughts from the peanut gallery:
1) I am always surprised to hear folks saying that the upper level abilities of a ranger are weak - in this case HW15 let’s you cut the damage from any one attack in a round in half - how is that weak? Because it doesn’t let you cut all damage in half? It still cuts your foe’s nova damage attack in half which is huge or it cuts that ancient dragon’s breath weapon in half which is , again, huge. Then, feral senses is blind fighting in disguise giving you a melee fighting style for all those darkness/fog cloud/ etc you like to throw at your foes- remember if you can do it to the , they should be doing it to you too. Then the capstone a guaranteed +3 to +5 (depending on your wisdom bonus) to hit any one time in a round turning those high AC misses into hits when you most need them.
2) if you are going to skip out on the top levels, especially as an archer ranger and HW to go to R16 and get that HW15 ability and the L16 ASI then go fighter for 4 levels getting the final ASI and the basic fighter class and subclass abilities than to go R15/C/D5 to get L3 spells.
3) if you are going caster MC and have the stats you might want to consider R16/C2/D2 to get the L 16 ASI and then go C2/D2 to get the basic abilities and spells of both classes if you have the stats. That makes you a L12 caster with 5 cantrips access to wildshape (mostly for recon), turning, Druid circle spells and base ability and clerical domain spells and base abilities.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It should be noted the ability is literally uncanny dodge but worse, since uncanny dodge isn't resistance and will therefore stack with actual resistance if you get it from elsewhere. And Rogues get Uncanny Dodge at 5, not 15.
It's certainly not weak - I've never heard of anyone badmouthing Uncanny Dodge! - but many people expect high-level abilities to be better than low-level ones, and that's just not how 5E is designed. There's a lot of front-loading.
Feral Senses has better range - the no-disadvantage ability is range infinity, and the invisibility-detector is range 30, not 10 - but Rangers have had Blind Fighting since level 2 at that point, and bear in mind your fog cloud example won't work in general, because Feral Senses does nothing at all to help you find the target you want to attack. If you guess correctly where your enemy is you'll make a flat roll instead of with disadvantage, for sure, but I for one would rather know where the enemy is and roll with disadvantage than fire randomly and hope I get to make a flat roll.
Feral Senses is absolutely not a bad ability compared to some others, for sure. For example, the Barbarian L18 ability is unfathomably bad and can't even try to hold a candle to Feral Senses. On the other hand, the Wizard L18 ability is radically better. I'm not here to say it's the worst or best thing ever, I'm just pointing out realities.
The single biggest problem with the capstone is that it isn't remotely guaranteed because it only works if you guessed your enemy's potential type correctly back when you were leveling.
Most Channel Divinities aren't worth the second cleric level, but you might not have anything better to take. You need 2 Druid levels to make any amount of Druid worth taking, but I'm not sure what Circle would work well with Horizon Walker. If I were building it myself to try it, I'd probably do it with Stars.
I would never consider bailing on Ranger at 15 to multiclass into another Spellcaster, because I'm allergic to letting the multiclassing rules nerf my slot progression. I would only ever bail on an even number of Ranger levels. R12, R14, and R16 are the only options I would seriously consider here, and for sure R16 would be the most likely.
Considering that your MCing at such a high level comparing the benefits to lower level ones isn’t unreasonable, They might not be the most powerful benefits at their levels but they are definitely not weak. If you are going the caster route you do have some options:
1) R16/D2/C2 as I said before - the problems here quindraco described - which Druid circle and poor channel divinity, I was mostly looking at the extra spells you get especially cantrips and the full caster levels to boost slots.
2) 4 levels of either - this at least gets you the last ASI. Of the 2 Druid is probably a little bit better as you also a wildshape improvement.
3) doing 3/1 either way - this gets you L2 spells in the L3 class but nothing else and your losing an ASI to do it.
4) instead of going for religious magic if you have the stats for it go arcane - my favorite is sorceror either draconic or storm work well with rangers and 4 levels get you the ASI, 5 cantrips, L2 spells, 4 levels of casting vs the 2 straight ranger would get you and metamagic ( limited but available when needed), you do miss out on Your 1L5 spell however. You could go wizard or warlock here but personally I consider them poorer choices.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
The complaint, as I understand it, isn't that those abilities aren't useful. It's that they're not Tiers 3/4 useful. YMMV on this, of course.
Personally, I find Vanish to be extremely underrated. The general complaint is that it's just a weaker Cunning Action 11 levels later. But.
1. As of Tasha's, Rangers get myriad ways of mimicking the other options of Cunning Action via their spells (Zephyr Strike, Longstrider, and even Ashardalon's Stride.) So really, all you're missing is Hide as a BA.
2. The more important aspect of the feature isn't the Hide, it's not being able to get tracked non-magically. Which, yes, you can mimick with Pass Without Trace. But now it becomes an always-on passive ability that costs you nothing. Combine with Nondetection (which you get at 9th-level,) and now you can't be tracked in any way, shape, or form. The non-combat applications for this are huge. Bonus points if you're a Gloom Stalker for invisibility, or if you use Nature's Veil judiciously.
Lots of good points in you last post.........now if only the ranger class had some boost to skills locating targets. All targets might be too powerful but if it was based on terrain or creature type it might just create some interesting skill interaction. too bad the ranger class doesn't get that.
All joking aside, Your points were clear and addressed the major complaints. well done.
At 18th level, you gain preternatural senses that help you fight creatures you can’t see. When you attack a creature you can’t see, your inability to see it doesn’t impose disadvantage on your attack rolls against it.
given the wording I would say it is allowing you to know where the bad guys are at least those within range of melee weapons. Your other senses like hearing allow you to locate where they are in terms of direction and distance so that you are not blindly swinging that is why you don’t have disadvantage. Try closing your eyes and have someone walk around talking or playing noise on their phone, you can tell which direction and how far away they are this just takes it to the next level something like the guy out in California that bicycles by echolocation.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I can’t help that 5e is front loaded but if your a L14 HW do you take 5 levels of rogue to get uncanny dodge or do you take spectral defense as a L15 ranger? Further the wording of spectral defense is another WOtC confusion “resistance to all of the attack’s damage” is it resistance ie half damage or is it all the damage of that one attack? I can see players and DMs fighting over the interpretation of the wording.
i provided an answer about feral senses in a previous post
if your playing a PHB rAnger then yes if you picked your favored wrong you have can’t do much but if the bbeg is one then it’s an awesome benefit. Tasha’s favored foe solves the problem and still meets the needed wording (hopefully that was done on purpose) making it a much stronger ability.
im with you on bailing at 15 it’s not worth it for a casting MC. I can see actually going to 17 and then switching to a full caster for 3 levels so you get the ranger L5 spell and the caster’s L2 spells but you do lose the last ASI which could be important.
for Druid circle your really only looking at the L2 abilities and circle of the land gives you an extra cantrip (3/4), natural recovery (let’s you regain a couple of spell slots once/LR, and the L3 spells of the terrain you choose (Coast gives you Mirror image and Misty step - both great spells)
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.