Ok! So a Ranger Becomes a beastmaster, finds a pet, has too follow the lvl 3, first pet rules of a Challange Rate of 1/4th or less. OK! COOL!
But... What about later levels?
The PHB only mentions what you are limited too, FOR level 3, ( CR 1/4th and lower ) but it does not say what you are limited too or can get at later levels, WHILE listing off the XP cost for those other monsters, directly implying how much XP you have to spend from your character, in order to attempt to tame it. Yet for all the searching I have done trying to find out if you can actually tame a higher CR pet without Homebrew alterations, I cannot find any official definitive answer on official rules. The closest I can come, is that Ranger level 3, when you pickup Beastmaster subclass, you can tame beast with a level 1/4th or less. That is it. No statements on if you CANNOT EVERY tame a higher challenge rate character, without homebrew rule overrides... Nothing... Everything else beyond that is theory crafting, repeating the same info about the 1/4th thing at lvl 3, and homebrew overrides.
And honestly, something about it all, really comes off as if, the option to tame higher level creatures of larger size at later levels is suppose to be an option, especially since skimming over some stuff from the distant past suggest that 4th edition allowed beast masters to tame higher CR pets as your character leveled, so I am like... WTF? Why is this seemingly left purposefully vague and incomplete... Has the reluctance to "FIX" ranger been centered around the fact that you could always train higher CR pets later level 3 and no one knows about that cause all we have is just the statement about 1/4th CR at entry level 3rd ranger beastmaster? And in the absence of official answers lead to a blind assumption that you can't without homebrew rules?
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A Beast Master's companion is always a beats of CR 1/4th or lower. If there were an option to choose a higher CR beast, the rules would tell you so.
Anyone can try to tame a beast if they have enough time, money, the right skills, and the DM's blessing. The Beast Master subclass just gives you a guaranteed way of getting an obedient companion that gains certain benefits.
Well, it's not a blind assumption. The rules in the PHB are pretty clear about the limit to the CR of your animal companion. Now whether that is a good rule is a subject of hot debate on the D&D Beyond forums and other places. See Here for example.
Honestly, the easiest way right now to get a helpful creature of higher CR is to become a Bard and filch the Find Steed or Find Greater Steed spell from the Paladin list.
The only thing the PHB makes clear, is at Ranger Beastmaster level 3, you can tame a 1/4 level creature or lower.
That says nothing about higher levels and if you can or can't tame a beast of 1/2 or greater CR on top of large or larger beast. No approval, as well as, no denial. That leaves a gaping hole of what can and can't be done. Which leads to blind assumption. So far, the only way to fill the gap is homebrew rules.
It does NOT say you are limited to CR 1/4th after level 3, only that AT level 3, you can choose a 1/4th creature or lower.
That leaves EVERYTHING after level 3 BeastMaster is unclear.
Every other Class and subclass with something similarly special has that special thing change and upgrade as your character/class level ranks up. Magic users upgrade spell slots and spell counts, Rogue sneak attacks get more dice, Clarics Destroy undead can progressively kill undead of higher and higher CR, Druids Beast shape CR levels up as well as Circle spell options, Monk Ki points increase as well as what level of spell slots you can restore, Paladin Oath of the Ancients spells increase with level, sorcerers gain more sorcerery points as they level, Warlocks Otherworldly Patrons add more spells as they level, and every class has a proficiency increase.
Somethign seems very out of place about Ranger BeastMaster pets and what CR level and creature size you can tame not leveling up with your Rangers Beast Master Level upgrades, seems absolutely wrong. Given the wording of its introduction, there is simply a huge gap that doesn't say yes or no to RBM's being able tot and higher CR and larger creatures after level 3. It is just strait up, EMPTY! The only hint that you might be able too, without homebrew rules, is the fact that there are CR listings and XP cost for trying to tame those creatures.
And that's part of why a lot of people don't like the way the Beastmaster was built. Your animal companion also cannot be made to do much of anything except Dodge and move until the Ranger gets to 5th level or higher. Sad, isn't it?
If you interpret the archetype as specific changes to the general rules instead of reading it as “This is all the beast can do” then the ranger/animal companion team can do a lot more.
Really seems like these valid arguments have been getting re-told from the very begining, to such a degree, that despite the fact that Wizard finally admitted something was wrong with the Ranger class and needed fixing, they knowingly didn't actually fix it and instead added more archetypes that side steppingly ignored the entire problem and introduced new archetypes as "the fix!" when it didn't actually fix the real problems.
It is too the point, that it should seem obvious, that they know it is messed up, they knowingly pretend ignorance, when trying to introduce a sideways options as a fix, and in reality they don't wanna fix it, while playing PR head games with introducing sideways things too it. Leaving the actual problems in place, getting the exact same complaints that have existed, from the very beginning. At this point, we can assume with certainty, they are intentionally ignoring the problems.
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The problem with Beast Master and Ranger in general is that the DM has the power to make or break the class.
I’ve read a lot of complaints about the archetype and I’ve read that others think it is fine. At times, I’m not sure if we are even talking about the same interpretation of the rules.
For instance, the phrase “It takes its turn on your initiative” is interpreted by many to mean that the ranger takes and finishes their turn then the animal companion starts its turn. I completely understand why some players call this awkward. I think that interpreting it as the the ranger and animal companion interweave their turns makes a team that works together well. Arguing whether this is RAW or house rule is mostly pointless if you are trying to make a Beast Master that works and is fun to play.
I interpret the archetype description as specific changes to the general rules. If the DM thinks that an NPC beast (controlled by the DM) could reasonably do something, then the Beast Master controlled beast should be able to do it too. It just has to follow the specific rules in the archetype description.
Can a DM controlled mastiff pick up stick in its mouth and carry it? I think most DMs would agree it could.
Can a Ranger controlled mastiff do the same thing? If you read the archetype description as “this is everything and the only things the animal companion can do” then it can’t because the Use an Object action is not listed in the description. If you read it as specific changes to the general rules then the mastiff can be (and must be) commanded by the ranger to Use an Object. It doesn’t require the ranger’s action to do so because Use an Object is not an action that is listed as requiring the ranger’s action.
I use this logic to allow the ranger to command the animal companion to take the Ready action. This way, the beast can make an attack using its action and reaction while the ranger can use their own action to do something else. I’m not saying this is RAW or RAI but I believe this solves many of the action economy problems that many have with the Beast Master archetype.
This may seem overpowered to some but I think it is balanced by the low hit points of the animal companion. If the Beast Master uses the animal companion too aggressively in combat, then the companion might be killed and the Beast Master will have to wait until the companion can be replaced.
There are lots of other things that a DM can allow if they think the subclass is still too weak. Jeremy Crawford noted that the DM has the power to award class or sidekick levels to the animal. Is an animal companion with 7 levels of rogue still too squishy for you?
Of course the DM can tweak the Ranger's animal companion to be more effective. I hope that is what's happening a lot. The problem goes back to the fact that playing a Beastmaster with real effectiveness (esp before level 5 and after level 10) requires extensive research, some rules lawyering, and a friendly DM. It is, next to the PHB 4 Elements Monk and the Wild Magic Sorcerer, one of the most difficult subclasses to play well for anyone who does not know the rules very well or who has a DM in a bad mood.
Heh, and I am actually considering making a Ranger Beast Master Sorcerer sometime later, perhaps in season 9, in September.
Sorcerers can spend S-Points to meta magic spells, so a spell like cure wounds with a range of touch can suddenly have a 30ft range, and I could also cast single target spells in a way to hit another creature. Already fantasizing about how I could movement debuff 3 or more enemies eventually, while my pet flanks them, allowing anyone with sneak attack to gain a damage bonus for 1 hit during their action round, assuming they took up a level in rogue in some shape or form.
Had to make sure my pet leveled up its hit dice each time my character leveled up, just to make sure my pet wouldn't be overly squishy cannon fodder that dies too quickly. If I was limited to only allowed to level my companion up with every ranger level, my pet would have been killed 10 or more times already and something about that just doesn't seem correctly balanced, if the Beast Master Pet is Ranger Level Locked and not Character Level locked.
Well, I know healing is important, so being able to save spell slots to heal with would make a huge difference, especially if you can revive a heal slot with S-Points. Crowd Control abilities also help the entire group, so being able to chain Ray of Frost to multiple enemies gives the group additional time to act and react. So if I can manage to have my pet pound down an enemy, allowing group advantage and giving enemy disadvantage, while making sure my pet can still see me, so it can use its reaction to attack later, I think that would go a long ways in group wide effectiveness, especially in those moments when we don't have a dedicated healer or the main healer is overwhelmed and running out of spell slots.
I need to go back threw those sorcerer meta skills and see if something like a single target heal spell can be S-Point meta magicked into healing more the one creature.
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Ok! So a Ranger Becomes a beastmaster, finds a pet, has too follow the lvl 3, first pet rules of a Challange Rate of 1/4th or less. OK! COOL!
But... What about later levels?
The PHB only mentions what you are limited too, FOR level 3, ( CR 1/4th and lower ) but it does not say what you are limited too or can get at later levels, WHILE listing off the XP cost for those other monsters, directly implying how much XP you have to spend from your character, in order to attempt to tame it. Yet for all the searching I have done trying to find out if you can actually tame a higher CR pet without Homebrew alterations, I cannot find any official definitive answer on official rules. The closest I can come, is that Ranger level 3, when you pickup Beastmaster subclass, you can tame beast with a level 1/4th or less. That is it. No statements on if you CANNOT EVERY tame a higher challenge rate character, without homebrew rule overrides... Nothing... Everything else beyond that is theory crafting, repeating the same info about the 1/4th thing at lvl 3, and homebrew overrides.
And honestly, something about it all, really comes off as if, the option to tame higher level creatures of larger size at later levels is suppose to be an option, especially since skimming over some stuff from the distant past suggest that 4th edition allowed beast masters to tame higher CR pets as your character leveled, so I am like... WTF? Why is this seemingly left purposefully vague and incomplete... Has the reluctance to "FIX" ranger been centered around the fact that you could always train higher CR pets later level 3 and no one knows about that cause all we have is just the statement about 1/4th CR at entry level 3rd ranger beastmaster? And in the absence of official answers lead to a blind assumption that you can't without homebrew rules?
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A Beast Master's companion is always a beats of CR 1/4th or lower. If there were an option to choose a higher CR beast, the rules would tell you so.
Anyone can try to tame a beast if they have enough time, money, the right skills, and the DM's blessing. The Beast Master subclass just gives you a guaranteed way of getting an obedient companion that gains certain benefits.
Well, it's not a blind assumption. The rules in the PHB are pretty clear about the limit to the CR of your animal companion. Now whether that is a good rule is a subject of hot debate on the D&D Beyond forums and other places. See Here for example.
Honestly, the easiest way right now to get a helpful creature of higher CR is to become a Bard and filch the Find Steed or Find Greater Steed spell from the Paladin list.
The only thing the PHB makes clear, is at Ranger Beastmaster level 3, you can tame a 1/4 level creature or lower.
That says nothing about higher levels and if you can or can't tame a beast of 1/2 or greater CR on top of large or larger beast. No approval, as well as, no denial. That leaves a gaping hole of what can and can't be done. Which leads to blind assumption. So far, the only way to fill the gap is homebrew rules.
It does NOT say you are limited to CR 1/4th after level 3, only that AT level 3, you can choose a 1/4th creature or lower.
That leaves EVERYTHING after level 3 BeastMaster is unclear.
Every other Class and subclass with something similarly special has that special thing change and upgrade as your character/class level ranks up. Magic users upgrade spell slots and spell counts, Rogue sneak attacks get more dice, Clarics Destroy undead can progressively kill undead of higher and higher CR, Druids Beast shape CR levels up as well as Circle spell options, Monk Ki points increase as well as what level of spell slots you can restore, Paladin Oath of the Ancients spells increase with level, sorcerers gain more sorcerery points as they level, Warlocks Otherworldly Patrons add more spells as they level, and every class has a proficiency increase.
Somethign seems very out of place about Ranger BeastMaster pets and what CR level and creature size you can tame not leveling up with your Rangers Beast Master Level upgrades, seems absolutely wrong. Given the wording of its introduction, there is simply a huge gap that doesn't say yes or no to RBM's being able tot and higher CR and larger creatures after level 3. It is just strait up, EMPTY! The only hint that you might be able too, without homebrew rules, is the fact that there are CR listings and XP cost for trying to tame those creatures.
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And that's part of why a lot of people don't like the way the Beastmaster was built. Your animal companion also cannot be made to do much of anything except Dodge and move until the Ranger gets to 5th level or higher. Sad, isn't it?
If you interpret the archetype as specific changes to the general rules instead of reading it as “This is all the beast can do” then the ranger/animal companion team can do a lot more.
Really seems like these valid arguments have been getting re-told from the very begining, to such a degree, that despite the fact that Wizard finally admitted something was wrong with the Ranger class and needed fixing, they knowingly didn't actually fix it and instead added more archetypes that side steppingly ignored the entire problem and introduced new archetypes as "the fix!" when it didn't actually fix the real problems.
It is too the point, that it should seem obvious, that they know it is messed up, they knowingly pretend ignorance, when trying to introduce a sideways options as a fix, and in reality they don't wanna fix it, while playing PR head games with introducing sideways things too it. Leaving the actual problems in place, getting the exact same complaints that have existed, from the very beginning. At this point, we can assume with certainty, they are intentionally ignoring the problems.
Make MeowMancer Your Patron TODAY! and become a BEAUTIFUL meow!
The problem with Beast Master and Ranger in general is that the DM has the power to make or break the class.
I’ve read a lot of complaints about the archetype and I’ve read that others think it is fine. At times, I’m not sure if we are even talking about the same interpretation of the rules.
For instance, the phrase “It takes its turn on your initiative” is interpreted by many to mean that the ranger takes and finishes their turn then the animal companion starts its turn. I completely understand why some players call this awkward. I think that interpreting it as the the ranger and animal companion interweave their turns makes a team that works together well. Arguing whether this is RAW or house rule is mostly pointless if you are trying to make a Beast Master that works and is fun to play.
I interpret the archetype description as specific changes to the general rules. If the DM thinks that an NPC beast (controlled by the DM) could reasonably do something, then the Beast Master controlled beast should be able to do it too. It just has to follow the specific rules in the archetype description.
Can a DM controlled mastiff pick up stick in its mouth and carry it? I think most DMs would agree it could.
Can a Ranger controlled mastiff do the same thing? If you read the archetype description as “this is everything and the only things the animal companion can do” then it can’t because the Use an Object action is not listed in the description. If you read it as specific changes to the general rules then the mastiff can be (and must be) commanded by the ranger to Use an Object. It doesn’t require the ranger’s action to do so because Use an Object is not an action that is listed as requiring the ranger’s action.
I use this logic to allow the ranger to command the animal companion to take the Ready action. This way, the beast can make an attack using its action and reaction while the ranger can use their own action to do something else. I’m not saying this is RAW or RAI but I believe this solves many of the action economy problems that many have with the Beast Master archetype.
This may seem overpowered to some but I think it is balanced by the low hit points of the animal companion. If the Beast Master uses the animal companion too aggressively in combat, then the companion might be killed and the Beast Master will have to wait until the companion can be replaced.
There are lots of other things that a DM can allow if they think the subclass is still too weak. Jeremy Crawford noted that the DM has the power to award class or sidekick levels to the animal. Is an animal companion with 7 levels of rogue still too squishy for you?
Of course the DM can tweak the Ranger's animal companion to be more effective. I hope that is what's happening a lot. The problem goes back to the fact that playing a Beastmaster with real effectiveness (esp before level 5 and after level 10) requires extensive research, some rules lawyering, and a friendly DM. It is, next to the PHB 4 Elements Monk and the Wild Magic Sorcerer, one of the most difficult subclasses to play well for anyone who does not know the rules very well or who has a DM in a bad mood.
Heh, and I am actually considering making a Ranger Beast Master Sorcerer sometime later, perhaps in season 9, in September.
Sorcerers can spend S-Points to meta magic spells, so a spell like cure wounds with a range of touch can suddenly have a 30ft range, and I could also cast single target spells in a way to hit another creature. Already fantasizing about how I could movement debuff 3 or more enemies eventually, while my pet flanks them, allowing anyone with sneak attack to gain a damage bonus for 1 hit during their action round, assuming they took up a level in rogue in some shape or form.
Had to make sure my pet leveled up its hit dice each time my character leveled up, just to make sure my pet wouldn't be overly squishy cannon fodder that dies too quickly. If I was limited to only allowed to level my companion up with every ranger level, my pet would have been killed 10 or more times already and something about that just doesn't seem correctly balanced, if the Beast Master Pet is Ranger Level Locked and not Character Level locked.
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That's interesting. Please let us know how that turns out.
Well, I know healing is important, so being able to save spell slots to heal with would make a huge difference, especially if you can revive a heal slot with S-Points. Crowd Control abilities also help the entire group, so being able to chain Ray of Frost to multiple enemies gives the group additional time to act and react. So if I can manage to have my pet pound down an enemy, allowing group advantage and giving enemy disadvantage, while making sure my pet can still see me, so it can use its reaction to attack later, I think that would go a long ways in group wide effectiveness, especially in those moments when we don't have a dedicated healer or the main healer is overwhelmed and running out of spell slots.
I need to go back threw those sorcerer meta skills and see if something like a single target heal spell can be S-Point meta magicked into healing more the one creature.
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