I was just going over classes with a player and we were talking about their features... How has it been this long, and I just now realize Rogues are the only class that can use their signature features with no cost?
Barbarian - Rage - Number of times per long rest Bard - Bardic Inspiration / Spell Slots - Number of times equal to your Charisma Modifier per long rest (Font of Inspiration reduces to short rest) Cleric - Channel Divinity / Spell Slots - Number of times per short rest Druid - Wild Shape / Spell Slots - 2 twice per short rest Fighter - Second Wind/Action Surge - Once per long rest Monk - Ki - Number of times per short rest Paladin - Divine Smite / Spell Slots - based on available spell Slots Ranger - Spell Slots - Has many out of combat features that you can use as much as you want to. Honestly I haven't had someone play a ranger at my table in forever so I don't know what its like to play them. lol Rogue - Sneak Attack, Uncanny Doidge, Evasion - AS MUCH AS YOU WANT TO Sorcerer - Spell Slots and Sorcery Points Warlock - Pact Slots Wizard - Spell Slots Artificer - Spell slots / Infusions Known / Infused Items
So with the exception of maybe Ranger and Maybe Fighter... Rogue appears to be the only class that just could never sleep (excluding exhaustion) and never run out of resouces... Is this why I always disliked them. Sorry for the weird random post just want feedback, maybe I am missing something and there is a reason almost every other class is bound by resources except rouge? Why don't rogues have points similar to ki like monks, where they can only do X points to sneak attack? Or more like Barbarian where they can do things X times per Rest?
How is 2d6 per turn (cause technically you can also get sneak attack on a reaction) less strong than +2 Damage? Or at max level 10d6 vs +4? And before you say you can't get sneak attack every round because you need advantage, one its fairly easy to get sneak attack even excluding the optional flanking rule, you don't even need advantage, you just need an ally within 5 ft of your target.
How is the ability to reduce damage by half or all together not strong?
I think something to keep in mind is that all the classes with resources have those on top of several always-on features, and for the most part they can use those features regardless of situation. A Rogue, however, although they don't generally have resources they need to track, they're far more dependent on their fellow players and their environment. A rogue trapped in a big, empty room alone with a troll can't do a damn thing. No place to hide, no allies to activate sneak attack... they're just a strictly worse fighter who has a few tricks for reducing damage to themselves. So that's the balance... a Rogue may not have numerized resources they need to track on their character sheet, but they need to track the resources available to them in their environment to make sure they can keep landing those sneak attacks.
A barbarian rage is not +2 to damage. It's +2 to damage and advantage on all Strength checks and saving throws and Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage and whatever bonus you get from your subclass. And it lasts for up to 10 rounds. Rage is considerably stronger than sneak attack. On top of that, rogues are considerably squishier than barbarians and also almost always have worse base damage: a rogue is going to be hitting for 1d6 or 1d8 plus their dex once per round. They don't get extra attack and they don't get any weapons with larger damage dice. For a class that lacks spellcasting as a base feature that's very limiting. Vs a barbarian with a greataxe, the rogue needs sneak attack to catch up with them when they're not raging.
5E meta has rogues pegged as a fairly weak class to begin with. If sneak attacks were suddenly a thing that they could only use a limited number of times per day, they'd be straight up the worst class in the game.
I think something to keep in mind is that all the classes with resources have those on top of several always-on features, and for the most part they can use those features regardless of situation. A Rogue, however, although they don't generally have resources they need to track, they're far more dependent on their fellow players and their environment. A rogue trapped in a big, empty room alone with a troll can't do a damn thing. No place to hide, no allies to activate sneak attack... they're just a strictly worse fighter who has a few tricks for reducing damage to themselves. So that's the balance... a Rogue may not have numerized resources they need to track on their character sheet, but they need to track the resources available to them in their environment to make sure they can keep landing those sneak attacks.
You do realize this argument is, A rogue is really bad in its worst-case scenario... All martial classes have their worst-case scenario and are terrible in those instances. But they still have resource management.
A barbarian rage is not +2 to damage. It's +2 to damage and advantage on all Strength checks and saving throws and Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage and whatever bonus you get from your subclass. And it lasts for up to 10 rounds. Rage is considerably stronger than sneak attack. On top of that, rogues are considerably squishier than barbarians and also almost always have better base damage: a rogue is going to be hitting for 1d6 or 1d8 plus their dex once per round. They don't get extra attack and they don't get any weapons with larger damage dice. For a class that lacks spellcasting as a base feature that's very limiting. Vs a barbarian with a greataxe, the rogue needs sneak attack to catch up with them when they're not raging.
5E meta has rogues pegged as a fairly weak class to begin with. If sneak attacks were suddenly a thing that they could only use a limited number of times per day, they'd be straight up the worst class in the game.
So I am just going to respond to this entire argument with this... I've been DM'ing 5e for about since June of 2017. I did it for 3 groups of students when I was a teacher, for numerous people at my local gaming shops, and run campaigns for 2 groups of friends... In 5 years of playing this game, I almost always have a rogue in my games... I've had two rangers I recall. Rogues are not weak the weakest class. Experiance tells me there is another class firmly holding that role.
Rogues are not weak classes and saying they shouldn't require resource management because in 1v1 combat they are weak is basically saying Barbarian should have more social features because they are weak in social encounters. I am not saying every class needs to be strong in every group. I am saying Rogues are the only class without resource management where EVERY OTHER CLASS has it. That alone makes their class very variable. Even given the 1v1 combat, rogues have many features and abilities they can use to avoid, flee and escape combat.
Also just cause I feel like I have to expand on this...
A barbarian rage is not +2 to damage. It's +2 to damage and advantage on all Strength checks and saving throws and Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage and whatever bonus you get from your subclass. And it lasts for up to 10 rounds.
A rouges sneak attack Xd6 up to two times per round and they can half damage once per round for 180+ rounds of combat... At best a Barbarian gets half damage twice a day... ROGUES GET TO HALF DAMAGE INFITIE AMOUNT OF TIMES PER DAY, if it requires a Dex saving they can make the damage nothing.... And guess what they can do that 4890 times a day if they wanted to... A Barbarian can half all damage for 10 * Rages per day
Also to be clear, incase it sounds like I am saying Rogues are Over Powered, I am not. I am simply curious as to why they are the only class that doesn't have resource management
Your question has been answered - rogue class features are not powerful/impactful enough to require metering. The fact that you disagree with the answer doesn't mean it's not the answer. Take it from a player with wheel time behind both rangers and rogues - rangers are much better than people think they are, and rogues are not nearly as omnicompetent as folks believe. Sneak Attack sounds scarier than it is, the weapon restrictions hurt, the lack of Extra Attack hurts more, and the ranger's access to spells is a bigger deal than folks think. People defecate on ranger because Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer are mechanically weak without realizing that rangers are eighty percent of what makes paladin the game's strongest class. Once you play one, especially with the Tasha's patch for Deft Explorer to gain Expertise? There's very little a rogue can accomplish that a ranger can't accomplish more better.
Because that's the balancing WOTC decided to build for the rogue. Different classes are built with different tempos in mind. Rogues are built to just keep going without needing any particular kind of rest. Simple as that.
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I think something to keep in mind is that all the classes with resources have those on top of several always-on features, and for the most part they can use those features regardless of situation. A Rogue, however, although they don't generally have resources they need to track, they're far more dependent on their fellow players and their environment. A rogue trapped in a big, empty room alone with a troll can't do a damn thing. No place to hide, no allies to activate sneak attack... they're just a strictly worse fighter who has a few tricks for reducing damage to themselves. So that's the balance... a Rogue may not have numerized resources they need to track on their character sheet, but they need to track the resources available to them in their environment to make sure they can keep landing those sneak attacks.
You do realize this argument is, A rogue is really bad in its worst-case scenario... All martial classes have their worst-case scenario and are terrible in those instances. But they still have resource management.
I think my argument is intended to be less that Rogues are bad in their worst-case scenario, and more that it's easier to put the Rogue in a worst-case scenario than other classes. A rogue that's fully rested with all their equipment but without a place to hide and no allies nearby is completely boned, whereas any other Martial Class can hold their own at least for a while. A fighter whose already spent their Action Surge and Second Wind put in that same situation will still fair better than a Rogue.
Of course, how often do things like that ever happen? Well, I guess if the Rogue player is the type to sneak ahead constantly and try to solo challenges it's bound to come up more often than most DMs would want to deal with, but on average a Rogue player's challenge, like I said, is less about keeping track of their charges for sudden use effects and more about managing the environment and taking advantage of other players.
Also just cause I feel like I have to expand on this...
A barbarian rage is not +2 to damage. It's +2 to damage and advantage on all Strength checks and saving throws and Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage and whatever bonus you get from your subclass. And it lasts for up to 10 rounds.
A rouges sneak attack Xd6 up to two times per round and they can half damage once per round for 180+ rounds of combat... At best a Barbarian gets half damage twice a day... ROGUES GET TO HALF DAMAGE INFITIE AMOUNT OF TIMES PER DAY, if it requires a Dex saving they can make the damage nothing.... And guess what they can do that 4890 times a day if they wanted to... A Barbarian can half all damage for 10 * Rages per day
Also to be clear, incase it sounds like I am saying Rogues are Over Powered, I am not. I am simply curious as to why they are the only class that doesn't have resource management
A rogue cannot sneak attack twice in a round unless someone else does something to allow it to take an opportunity attack. So that requires an external trigger, which means it's not something that can easily be relied upon and it's definitely not something that the rogue can do by itself.
Also, taking an opportunity attack uses your reaction. As does using Uncanny Dodge. Which means that you can't do both in the same round. The rogue also doesn't get Uncanny Dodge until 5th level, which is the same point as when the Barbarian gets Extra Attack. The barbarian doesn't have to give up a reaction to make the second attack. Nor does the barbarian have to choose which attack that strikes them is going to do half damage while they're raging because all the attacks are. That's an enormous difference in durability, especially if you're fighting multiple enemies that have Multiattack.
And finally, congratulations or GMing 5E for so long. I've been playing and GMing 5E just as long and one thing I've noticed is that unlike AD&D or 3rd Edition, rogues are not essential party members anymore. It's no longer necessary to have a rogue in the party to find traps or pick locks anymore, nor are rogues necessary for stealth and recon. They might still be an archetype of the high fantasy story, but they're not a necessary part of the team anymore.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Your question has been answered - rogue class features are not powerful/impactful enough to require metering. The fact that you disagree with the answer doesn't mean it's not the answer. Take it from a player with wheel time behind both rangers and rogues - rangers are much better than people think they are, and rogues are not nearly as omnicompetent as folks believe. Sneak Attack sounds scarier than it is, the weapon restrictions hurt, the lack of Extra Attack hurts more, and the ranger's access to spells is a bigger deal than folks think. People defecate on ranger because Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer are mechanically weak without realizing that rangers are eighty percent of what makes paladin the game's strongest class. Once you play one, especially with the Tasha's patch for Deft Explorer to gain Expertise? There's very little a rogue can accomplish that a ranger can't accomplish more better.
The answer is rogues are two weak without resource management... Thats a lame reason. As for power level, I am not arguing any Class is weak or strong, I've never said rogue was OP or weak, I simple said, very few players have ever choosen to play ranger and many choose rogue, I also said rogue is the only class without resource management, I disagree that they are weak, as they are one of the most balanced classes between both combat and out of combat, as there features give them a well-rounded combat and social interactions.
Because that's the balancing WOTC decided to build for the rogue. Different classes are built with different tempos in mind. Rogues are built to just keep going without needing any particular kind of rest. Simple as that.
Which is kinda what I was getting at, out of every class they are the only one that appears to have zero resource management and I thought that was odd given EVERY other class has to manager their features.
I think something to keep in mind is that all the classes with resources have those on top of several always-on features, and for the most part they can use those features regardless of situation. A Rogue, however, although they don't generally have resources they need to track, they're far more dependent on their fellow players and their environment. A rogue trapped in a big, empty room alone with a troll can't do a damn thing. No place to hide, no allies to activate sneak attack... they're just a strictly worse fighter who has a few tricks for reducing damage to themselves. So that's the balance... a Rogue may not have numerized resources they need to track on their character sheet, but they need to track the resources available to them in their environment to make sure they can keep landing those sneak attacks.
You do realize this argument is, A rogue is really bad in its worst-case scenario... All martial classes have their worst-case scenario and are terrible in those instances. But they still have resource management.
I think my argument is intended to be less that Rogues are bad in their worst-case scenario, and more that it's easier to put the Rogue in a worst-case scenario than other classes. A rogue that's fully rested with all their equipment but without a place to hide and no allies nearby is completely boned, whereas any other Martial Class can hold their own at least for a while. A fighter whose already spent their Action Surge and Second Wind put in that same situation will still fair better than a Rogue.
Of course, how often do things like that ever happen? Well, I guess if the Rogue player is the type to sneak ahead constantly and try to solo challenges it's bound to come up more often than most DMs would want to deal with, but on average a Rogue player's challenge, like I said, is less about keeping track of their charges for sudden use effects and more about managing the environment and taking advantage of other players.
Hopefully I didn't come of as to big of a dick, but rarely unless they player kinda of forces it or the DM does, most parties are not in a 1v1 situation by themselves. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but its rare enough I don't think it should be the point of balance.
To repeat to everyone I am not saying Rogues are OP or Weak, I think its odd that they are the only class that doesn't have to manage there resources.
So as to your final part, where its not necessary to have a rogue anymore, I fully agree. I've been GM for about 11 years in total. And I want to be clear, I am not trying to say rogues are good or bad, I think mechanically and design wise it was an odd choice for WOTC to make 11 class out of all them not require resources. That was my only point about this thread.
. A Barbarian can half all damage for 10 * Rages per day
While they are Raging, there is no limit to how many attacks they can halve the damage on. In theory, a Barbarian can take a million 1 hp strikes while Raging and not suffer any damage.
Regarding your other comments you make it sound as if Rogues should only be able to Sneak Attack a limited number of time per day or a limited number of dodges per day. What do you have against Rogues that you want to limit their abilities?
I wonder if, during design, Rogues were intended to do work while others rested.
Think about it: most long rests are at night, and under cover of darkness is exactly where Rogues traditionally thrive. Further, searching a room, according to the Basic Rules, takes 10 minutes -- (the same time as a ritual spell, so optimal timing disallows the high-Wisdom Cleric from doing it all) -- and a Rogue might spend the duration of a short rest just scouting ahead in a dungeon.
I'm not saying this is necessarily it, and I'm also not saying this is a great idea because I don't think it is. (Screwing up recon will often lead to running back to the party for help, thus ruining the rest, and the party needs to be ready to back the Rogue up, which they can't do until after the rest, so players would just have the Rogue twiddle his thumbs for practical reasons.) But it makes some sense, right?
Edit: I mean, the Rogue has always been resourceless across editions. This could have started at any point along that timeline.
ROGUES GET TO HALF DAMAGE INFITIE AMOUNT OF TIMES PER DAY
Uncanny Dodge requires a reaction, so while a rogue might be able to do it "infinite" times per day, they can only do it once per round
Yes, between UD and Evasion they can duck a lot of damage, but not every single attack lobbed their way
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Because that's the balancing WOTC decided to build for the rogue. Different classes are built with different tempos in mind. Rogues are built to just keep going without needing any particular kind of rest. Simple as that.
Which is kinda what I was getting at, out of every class they are the only one that appears to have zero resource management and I thought that was odd given EVERY other class has to manager their features.
Think of it as a deliberate choice and a unique feature of the Rogue class.
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I was just going over classes with a player and we were talking about their features... How has it been this long, and I just now realize Rogues are the only class that can use their signature features with no cost?
Claiming that Rogues can do either of those things "AS MUCH AS YOU WANT TO" is just false. Even the "no cost" claim is false. Sneak attack requires certain prerequisites and can be completely wasted if the attack misses. It can also only be done once per turn. Uncanny Dodge requires a reaction and thus can also only be done once per turn. Evasion is really good yes but can also be negated.
So as to your final part, where its not necessary to have a rogue anymore, I fully agree. I've been GM for about 11 years in total. And I want to be clear, I am not trying to say rogues are good or bad, I think mechanically and design wise it was an odd choice for WOTC to make 11 class out of all them not require resources. That was my only point about this thread.
But why? If they needed resources they would be a joke. Rogues never too damage charts with sneak attack. To get close they have to use gimmicky rules to make it work that make no sense. And even then they aren’t the best or even close. The high moment when they get a crit is great but that’s about it.
they are kinda relegated to the back up damage and primary skill monkey. Unless they MASSIVELY buffed sneak attack resources should never touch base rogue. Maybe it’s an outlier. But damage wise it is one of the weakest classes. That just is the case. It doesn’t deal as much continual damage as a fighter, barb or paladin. Hell even monk with its many attacks likely beats it. Spellcasters have their aoe attacks which do more damage than sneak attack to groups.
if a class is like that, below average damage wise all over, why would it ever need charges to fit in? Nothing here is high impact enough. Everything is conditional already
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I was just going over classes with a player and we were talking about their features... How has it been this long, and I just now realize Rogues are the only class that can use their signature features with no cost?
Barbarian - Rage - Number of times per long rest
Bard - Bardic Inspiration / Spell Slots - Number of times equal to your Charisma Modifier per long rest (Font of Inspiration reduces to short rest)
Cleric - Channel Divinity / Spell Slots - Number of times per short rest
Druid - Wild Shape / Spell Slots - 2 twice per short rest
Fighter - Second Wind/Action Surge - Once per long rest
Monk - Ki - Number of times per short rest
Paladin - Divine Smite / Spell Slots - based on available spell Slots
Ranger - Spell Slots - Has many out of combat features that you can use as much as you want to. Honestly I haven't had someone play a ranger at my table in forever so I don't know what its like to play them. lol
Rogue - Sneak Attack, Uncanny Doidge, Evasion - AS MUCH AS YOU WANT TO
Sorcerer - Spell Slots and Sorcery Points
Warlock - Pact Slots
Wizard - Spell Slots
Artificer - Spell slots / Infusions Known / Infused Items
So with the exception of maybe Ranger and Maybe Fighter... Rogue appears to be the only class that just could never sleep (excluding exhaustion) and never run out of resouces... Is this why I always disliked them. Sorry for the weird random post just want feedback, maybe I am missing something and there is a reason almost every other class is bound by resources except rouge? Why don't rogues have points similar to ki like monks, where they can only do X points to sneak attack? Or more like Barbarian where they can do things X times per Rest?
Because none of the core rogue abilities are strong enough that they should require resource expenditure.
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"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
How is 2d6 per turn (cause technically you can also get sneak attack on a reaction) less strong than +2 Damage? Or at max level 10d6 vs +4? And before you say you can't get sneak attack every round because you need advantage, one its fairly easy to get sneak attack even excluding the optional flanking rule, you don't even need advantage, you just need an ally within 5 ft of your target.
How is the ability to reduce damage by half or all together not strong?
I think something to keep in mind is that all the classes with resources have those on top of several always-on features, and for the most part they can use those features regardless of situation. A Rogue, however, although they don't generally have resources they need to track, they're far more dependent on their fellow players and their environment. A rogue trapped in a big, empty room alone with a troll can't do a damn thing. No place to hide, no allies to activate sneak attack... they're just a strictly worse fighter who has a few tricks for reducing damage to themselves. So that's the balance... a Rogue may not have numerized resources they need to track on their character sheet, but they need to track the resources available to them in their environment to make sure they can keep landing those sneak attacks.
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A barbarian rage is not +2 to damage. It's +2 to damage and advantage on all Strength checks and saving throws and Resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage and whatever bonus you get from your subclass. And it lasts for up to 10 rounds. Rage is considerably stronger than sneak attack. On top of that, rogues are considerably squishier than barbarians and also almost always have worse base damage: a rogue is going to be hitting for 1d6 or 1d8 plus their dex once per round. They don't get extra attack and they don't get any weapons with larger damage dice. For a class that lacks spellcasting as a base feature that's very limiting. Vs a barbarian with a greataxe, the rogue needs sneak attack to catch up with them when they're not raging.
5E meta has rogues pegged as a fairly weak class to begin with. If sneak attacks were suddenly a thing that they could only use a limited number of times per day, they'd be straight up the worst class in the game.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You do realize this argument is, A rogue is really bad in its worst-case scenario... All martial classes have their worst-case scenario and are terrible in those instances. But they still have resource management.
So I am just going to respond to this entire argument with this... I've been DM'ing 5e for about since June of 2017. I did it for 3 groups of students when I was a teacher, for numerous people at my local gaming shops, and run campaigns for 2 groups of friends... In 5 years of playing this game, I almost always have a rogue in my games... I've had two rangers I recall. Rogues are not weak the weakest class. Experiance tells me there is another class firmly holding that role.
Rogues are not weak classes and saying they shouldn't require resource management because in 1v1 combat they are weak is basically saying Barbarian should have more social features because they are weak in social encounters. I am not saying every class needs to be strong in every group. I am saying Rogues are the only class without resource management where EVERY OTHER CLASS has it. That alone makes their class very variable. Even given the 1v1 combat, rogues have many features and abilities they can use to avoid, flee and escape combat.
Also just cause I feel like I have to expand on this...
A rouges sneak attack Xd6 up to two times per round and they can half damage once per round for 180+ rounds of combat... At best a Barbarian gets half damage twice a day... ROGUES GET TO HALF DAMAGE INFITIE AMOUNT OF TIMES PER DAY, if it requires a Dex saving they can make the damage nothing.... And guess what they can do that 4890 times a day if they wanted to... A Barbarian can half all damage for 10 * Rages per day
Also to be clear, incase it sounds like I am saying Rogues are Over Powered, I am not. I am simply curious as to why they are the only class that doesn't have resource management
Your question has been answered - rogue class features are not powerful/impactful enough to require metering. The fact that you disagree with the answer doesn't mean it's not the answer. Take it from a player with wheel time behind both rangers and rogues - rangers are much better than people think they are, and rogues are not nearly as omnicompetent as folks believe. Sneak Attack sounds scarier than it is, the weapon restrictions hurt, the lack of Extra Attack hurts more, and the ranger's access to spells is a bigger deal than folks think. People defecate on ranger because Favored Enemy and Natural Explorer are mechanically weak without realizing that rangers are eighty percent of what makes paladin the game's strongest class. Once you play one, especially with the Tasha's patch for Deft Explorer to gain Expertise? There's very little a rogue can accomplish that a ranger can't accomplish more better.
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Because that's the balancing WOTC decided to build for the rogue. Different classes are built with different tempos in mind. Rogues are built to just keep going without needing any particular kind of rest. Simple as that.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I think my argument is intended to be less that Rogues are bad in their worst-case scenario, and more that it's easier to put the Rogue in a worst-case scenario than other classes. A rogue that's fully rested with all their equipment but without a place to hide and no allies nearby is completely boned, whereas any other Martial Class can hold their own at least for a while. A fighter whose already spent their Action Surge and Second Wind put in that same situation will still fair better than a Rogue.
Of course, how often do things like that ever happen? Well, I guess if the Rogue player is the type to sneak ahead constantly and try to solo challenges it's bound to come up more often than most DMs would want to deal with, but on average a Rogue player's challenge, like I said, is less about keeping track of their charges for sudden use effects and more about managing the environment and taking advantage of other players.
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A rogue cannot sneak attack twice in a round unless someone else does something to allow it to take an opportunity attack. So that requires an external trigger, which means it's not something that can easily be relied upon and it's definitely not something that the rogue can do by itself.
Also, taking an opportunity attack uses your reaction. As does using Uncanny Dodge. Which means that you can't do both in the same round. The rogue also doesn't get Uncanny Dodge until 5th level, which is the same point as when the Barbarian gets Extra Attack. The barbarian doesn't have to give up a reaction to make the second attack. Nor does the barbarian have to choose which attack that strikes them is going to do half damage while they're raging because all the attacks are. That's an enormous difference in durability, especially if you're fighting multiple enemies that have Multiattack.
And finally, congratulations or GMing 5E for so long. I've been playing and GMing 5E just as long and one thing I've noticed is that unlike AD&D or 3rd Edition, rogues are not essential party members anymore. It's no longer necessary to have a rogue in the party to find traps or pick locks anymore, nor are rogues necessary for stealth and recon. They might still be an archetype of the high fantasy story, but they're not a necessary part of the team anymore.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
The answer is rogues are two weak without resource management... Thats a lame reason. As for power level, I am not arguing any Class is weak or strong, I've never said rogue was OP or weak, I simple said, very few players have ever choosen to play ranger and many choose rogue, I also said rogue is the only class without resource management, I disagree that they are weak, as they are one of the most balanced classes between both combat and out of combat, as there features give them a well-rounded combat and social interactions.
Which is kinda what I was getting at, out of every class they are the only one that appears to have zero resource management and I thought that was odd given EVERY other class has to manager their features.
Hopefully I didn't come of as to big of a dick, but rarely unless they player kinda of forces it or the DM does, most parties are not in a 1v1 situation by themselves. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but its rare enough I don't think it should be the point of balance.
To repeat to everyone I am not saying Rogues are OP or Weak, I think its odd that they are the only class that doesn't have to manage there resources.
So as to your final part, where its not necessary to have a rogue anymore, I fully agree. I've been GM for about 11 years in total. And I want to be clear, I am not trying to say rogues are good or bad, I think mechanically and design wise it was an odd choice for WOTC to make 11 class out of all them not require resources. That was my only point about this thread.
While they are Raging, there is no limit to how many attacks they can halve the damage on. In theory, a Barbarian can take a million 1 hp strikes while Raging and not suffer any damage.
Regarding your other comments you make it sound as if Rogues should only be able to Sneak Attack a limited number of time per day or a limited number of dodges per day. What do you have against Rogues that you want to limit their abilities?
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I wonder if, during design, Rogues were intended to do work while others rested.
Think about it: most long rests are at night, and under cover of darkness is exactly where Rogues traditionally thrive. Further, searching a room, according to the Basic Rules, takes 10 minutes -- (the same time as a ritual spell, so optimal timing disallows the high-Wisdom Cleric from doing it all) -- and a Rogue might spend the duration of a short rest just scouting ahead in a dungeon.
I'm not saying this is necessarily it, and I'm also not saying this is a great idea because I don't think it is. (Screwing up recon will often lead to running back to the party for help, thus ruining the rest, and the party needs to be ready to back the Rogue up, which they can't do until after the rest, so players would just have the Rogue twiddle his thumbs for practical reasons.) But it makes some sense, right?
Edit: I mean, the Rogue has always been resourceless across editions. This could have started at any point along that timeline.
Uncanny Dodge requires a reaction, so while a rogue might be able to do it "infinite" times per day, they can only do it once per round
Yes, between UD and Evasion they can duck a lot of damage, but not every single attack lobbed their way
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Askatu, hyperfocused vedalken freedom fighter in Wildspace (Zealot barb/Swashbuckler rogue/Battle Master fighter)
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Think of it as a deliberate choice and a unique feature of the Rogue class.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Claiming that Rogues can do either of those things "AS MUCH AS YOU WANT TO" is just false. Even the "no cost" claim is false. Sneak attack requires certain prerequisites and can be completely wasted if the attack misses. It can also only be done once per turn. Uncanny Dodge requires a reaction and thus can also only be done once per turn. Evasion is really good yes but can also be negated.
But why? If they needed resources they would be a joke. Rogues never too damage charts with sneak attack. To get close they have to use gimmicky rules to make it work that make no sense. And even then they aren’t the best or even close. The high moment when they get a crit is great but that’s about it.
they are kinda relegated to the back up damage and primary skill monkey. Unless they MASSIVELY buffed sneak attack resources should never touch base rogue. Maybe it’s an outlier. But damage wise it is one of the weakest classes. That just is the case. It doesn’t deal as much continual damage as a fighter, barb or paladin. Hell even monk with its many attacks likely beats it. Spellcasters have their aoe attacks which do more damage than sneak attack to groups.
if a class is like that, below average damage wise all over, why would it ever need charges to fit in? Nothing here is high impact enough. Everything is conditional already