The character gave the knife back and they had a laugh about it, it was an escalation of pranks and jokes that had happened between them. The rest of the party tried sitting them both down and telling them it was going too far but neither took much notice. The 2 players agreed the only thing that would make the 2 of them stop is if 1 of their characters dies because of one of these jokes or tricks. In the end over the course of a series of storylines and encounters over about 20 game sessions (about 100 hours of play time) the 2 characters developed and grew and their behaviour changed. But, and this is the key point, all the players at the table where fully aware of the backstories, motivations, reasons and drivers behind that behaviour. The 2 players involved where also talking between themselves about where and how to take the personal growth elements of the story. This wasn't one player going rogue and just stealing stuff for shits and giggles.
I’m not going to start a religious discussion about your “Jesus ransacking market because he was upset” comment (besides pointing out that He had a very good reason to be upset).
I agree with most of what I’m seeing people say. Meta gaming by the people you play with is the wrong way to handle what your character is doing in game, but purposefully messing with the party is not the right way to do things. At all. And if that’s what you’re doing, they kind of have a right to get upset. I think I’m reading the situation correctly. I apologize if I’m off.
I play as if I'm in a campaign, even if I'm playing a one shot, who knows when the next paydays coming. My favorite class is a rogue and I'll pick pocket or steal a money pouch if its in the open and going to be an easy take. Thats how my character would pay for food and supplies in between adventures, stealing from the party is another thing. while alignment should factor in, it shouldn't be the only consideration. I pick pocketed an NPC in a one shot and the other players were taken aback and doing perception checks to catch me and metagaming at the end when they had no idea i had pickpocketed anybody. (The money was for orphans, my character was an orphan and steals to help make their lives better.) there are different reasons for picking pockets and stealing, maybe the other PCs should try the perception check angle, and try and find out why he's stealing.
Session Zero would have defined whether this allows PvP or contested rolls between characters. If it’s not allowed, pre-looting is explicitly wrong and he should just be kicked from the game.
Why? Because there’s no way to catch them other than making Perception checks to catch him. And there’s no rolling against other characters, ever in a no-PvP game.
The only acceptable way to play a thief in a game without PvP and keep the loot is to do it on your own time, against NPCs for example that aren’t targets of the party (the random shopkeep, the city guardsman, a quest-giver, etc). Beyond that, there’s literally no stealing between characters allowed unless the players have agreed out-of-game that it should. And the party gets to decide in-character if they even want to bother getting you out of prison at all if you get caught.
This isn’t complicated. Obviously all of the players don’t agree with the actions and you can’t understand what they mean so maybe you need to back up and have another Session Zero… or you’re just being a dick and should be kicked out of the group.
I am not a fan. I think that kind of character is more suited to solo games than to party games.
People invest in and identify with their characters and to have another PC playing against them is just not generally good.
Yes, you can argue player agency and you are right. But if you go down that path, it is player agency to surprise attack the other Rogue while you are both scouting and kill him and claim the orcs did it, so there is one less person to split the loot with. Or better yet when you run into the BBEG, let the party wear him down, then when it is clear you can take him, switch sides, turn the tables and start attacking the party you can beat everyone then get his loot, your party loot and everything. Nothing wrong with that, after all it is player agency.
Finally while it is metagaming to talk about what a character does not know, as a DM if you are regularly taking "pre-party split", I might start allowing insight or deception rolls. They might not see that you plamed the Gem, but unless you pass contested deception they might realize something is wrong based on your manerisms or behavior. I don't think that is metagaming becasue if you were playing with a "friendly" NPC that is exactly what would happen.
In my game, pick pocket loot is extra. If there were any protests, I would let everyone know that. I can't think of a time where someone attempted to steal from a major NPC that way. If they did, it would be extra stuff. Pickpocketing almost always happens during downtime activities on a crowded street. That being said, our thief rolls terribly and spends most of his free time in jail.
Metagaming is acceptable if it involves knowledge the player has, not if the players do not have the information.
That is, you can't buy holy water because you can see a vampire on the cover of the module the DM sets up. Nor would a 1st level thief even know about holy water.
But there is nothing wrong with deciding to raise your wisdom if you are playing a cleric. That kind of metaggaming is fine.
Why not?
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I reserve the right to /stillme for any reason whatsoever.
Ya i kind of does matter what Alignment he plays. A Evil character is not going to do good things just like a Good Character is not going to do Evil things.
A smart evil character is going to keep up the appearance of being a good and just person while secretly furthering their own selfish agenda. It's absolutely possible for an evil character to routinely do good things when it doesn't hinder their goals.
That makes me think of a NE narcissist type like Parkey Posey's character (except in the finale) in the 2018 lost in space. If anything was a threat to it...she'll kill it (and/or replace it) secretly, but if something was not a threat and might help her later (like saving an unconscious engineer in the wilderness), that was fine. This way she had a tally of the good things she did as currency. Eventually, they get outed in these types of situations because something happens where they have to do something only in their interest in public.
Back to the OP: Anyone who creates a character that works against the party instead of with it (like taking most of the loot), is usually a problem. Nobody wants to play with a thief that steals from them, messes up quests by stealing quest items, or taking more than their share of the loot. Not saying you did all those things, but they are examples. Kender were rewritten because nobody would play with a character who would routinely steal from them. That said, while you definitely are only worried about your own fun and not that of the other players, the DM should have managed this right from the beginning, because soon the players will take some sort of action against you.
Read the original post. They don't want him secretly collecting loot that is meant for the party (and not telling them or sharing). It's the DMs fault for not handling it properly.
If your party is legitimately upset with you stealing, consider talking to them outside the game. Talk to your DM about your concerns about them meta gaming. My suggestion would involve using perception. If their characters would be upset about you stealing, then their characters can stop you.
I play a rogue in my party and spent a whole afternoon (in the game) pickpocketing. I didn’t have to share anything. I don’t think you should have to share. The chest thing is different, but pickpocketing is fine. Let them get their own money. A rogue is a rogue and will always be a rogue. Your fellow players should learn that.
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The great Silver Dragon Lord of the Sky, Second in Command of the Dragon Cult, Warlock of Cyno, and Cultist of Jeff. I have a lot of allegiances… Anyways HI! I’m Bananer, pronouns He/Him, andddddd yeah. Bye, ig.
Who cares what your toon does unless it directly effects the group and messes up the story line and work your DM has done. That is the beauty of the game. Doing what you want. However when you play in a group... theres limits. Those other party members keep you alive by tanking damage or healing and your roll as a thief is to steal FOR the group, open locks, etc.
Stealing from Party / "Prestealing" - thats off limits. You piss off your party and they will let you burn. If Not a proper DM will put you on a stake and light the pyre themself!
I have personally made a point of giving hints and warnings as a DM to trouble makers in a group and if the nudges in correct direction cant be taken seriously, you will find one way or another the DM or players with the DMs help eventually will remove the problem. If it means you alone get burnt, or the whole party has to be and you dont get another invite back for next adventure, one way or another it is on the DM and group to end it.
From the way you describe the issue, personally as a DM would feed you to a dragon, let you steal from a massively over powered NPC fudge dice rolls and let them kill your toon ormake you offend a noble and hang you or find some other way to kill your thief off creatively if possible; if not possible and you got a lucky horseshoe up your ass than probably a bit more noticably like collapsing a building or cave on you and the entire party if necessary. The only difference is if I got to kill a party off, I would offer the rest of the party a way to recover and not you. Personally as a DM I do not tolerate discord of that nature in a group it ruins the game for everyone.
I have NEVER had a problem with any rogue pre picking the loot. Its their job. Unless you hired them to specifically steal for you.
Second off how do you even know they prepicked the loot pile? Unless your meta gaming and reading the module.
As long as the thief does not take the things the party are looking for and know are in the horde they would have no idea
Granted my thieves has never been so blatant as to snatch the vorpal sword and later use it in a fight. But that 1000gp gem no one knew about, yep its mine now. I thought of it as my payment for not robbing inside the towns we came into and causing trouble. I would masquerade as a low level fighter in the group.
Though I did have a group who thought I would steal everything from them and agreed to keep the thief from finding anything.(even with the DM's meta gaming help). Missions into the campaign they had to break out the "found" goods in front of my character and I called them on it. Two of the four fessed up and gave me my due but the other two refused. (the three of us even went to the Dm out of game and he eventually agreed that what he did was wrong. A few missions later the two stubborn players found out just how dastardly my rogue could be. One died because i refused to help him and the other died because well I helped him off to the after life.
Do not meta game.
Your rogue can always ask the local guild in your next town to clean out the whole of the party in any way they would like.
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But what did the PC do when the combat was over? My PC would have called him out and we would have had a Come to Jesus meeting right there.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
The character gave the knife back and they had a laugh about it, it was an escalation of pranks and jokes that had happened between them. The rest of the party tried sitting them both down and telling them it was going too far but neither took much notice. The 2 players agreed the only thing that would make the 2 of them stop is if 1 of their characters dies because of one of these jokes or tricks. In the end over the course of a series of storylines and encounters over about 20 game sessions (about 100 hours of play time) the 2 characters developed and grew and their behaviour changed. But, and this is the key point, all the players at the table where fully aware of the backstories, motivations, reasons and drivers behind that behaviour. The 2 players involved where also talking between themselves about where and how to take the personal growth elements of the story. This wasn't one player going rogue and just stealing stuff for shits and giggles.
I’m not going to start a religious discussion about your “Jesus ransacking market because he was upset” comment (besides pointing out that He had a very good reason to be upset).
I agree with most of what I’m seeing people say. Meta gaming by the people you play with is the wrong way to handle what your character is doing in game, but purposefully messing with the party is not the right way to do things. At all. And if that’s what you’re doing, they kind of have a right to get upset.
I think I’m reading the situation correctly. I apologize if I’m off.
Sorry for everyone who has no idea what I’m referring to, I forgot to specify who it was.
I play as if I'm in a campaign, even if I'm playing a one shot, who knows when the next paydays coming. My favorite class is a rogue and I'll pick pocket or steal a money pouch if its in the open and going to be an easy take. Thats how my character would pay for food and supplies in between adventures, stealing from the party is another thing. while alignment should factor in, it shouldn't be the only consideration. I pick pocketed an NPC in a one shot and the other players were taken aback and doing perception checks to catch me and metagaming at the end when they had no idea i had pickpocketed anybody. (The money was for orphans, my character was an orphan and steals to help make their lives better.) there are different reasons for picking pockets and stealing, maybe the other PCs should try the perception check angle, and try and find out why he's stealing.
.
Session Zero would have defined whether this allows PvP or contested rolls between characters. If it’s not allowed, pre-looting is explicitly wrong and he should just be kicked from the game.
Why? Because there’s no way to catch them other than making Perception checks to catch him. And there’s no rolling against other characters, ever in a no-PvP game.
The only acceptable way to play a thief in a game without PvP and keep the loot is to do it on your own time, against NPCs for example that aren’t targets of the party (the random shopkeep, the city guardsman, a quest-giver, etc). Beyond that, there’s literally no stealing between characters allowed unless the players have agreed out-of-game that it should. And the party gets to decide in-character if they even want to bother getting you out of prison at all if you get caught.
This isn’t complicated. Obviously all of the players don’t agree with the actions and you can’t understand what they mean so maybe you need to back up and have another Session Zero… or you’re just being a dick and should be kicked out of the group.
I am not a fan. I think that kind of character is more suited to solo games than to party games.
People invest in and identify with their characters and to have another PC playing against them is just not generally good.
Yes, you can argue player agency and you are right. But if you go down that path, it is player agency to surprise attack the other Rogue while you are both scouting and kill him and claim the orcs did it, so there is one less person to split the loot with. Or better yet when you run into the BBEG, let the party wear him down, then when it is clear you can take him, switch sides, turn the tables and start attacking the party you can beat everyone then get his loot, your party loot and everything. Nothing wrong with that, after all it is player agency.
Finally while it is metagaming to talk about what a character does not know, as a DM if you are regularly taking "pre-party split", I might start allowing insight or deception rolls. They might not see that you plamed the Gem, but unless you pass contested deception they might realize something is wrong based on your manerisms or behavior. I don't think that is metagaming becasue if you were playing with a "friendly" NPC that is exactly what would happen.
In my game, pick pocket loot is extra. If there were any protests, I would let everyone know that. I can't think of a time where someone attempted to steal from a major NPC that way. If they did, it would be extra stuff. Pickpocketing almost always happens during downtime activities on a crowded street. That being said, our thief rolls terribly and spends most of his free time in jail.
Why not?
I reserve the right to /stillme for any reason whatsoever.
The fires of Hell scorch you,
My vengeance terrible,
I, ascendant,
Above the flames of
The Inferno,
Of whom the lowest and most torturous
of circles is
Reserved for traitors.
The dead shall
Laugh at
Your eternal fate
Your sins
Shall return
To mock
And torment you.
That makes me think of a NE narcissist type like Parkey Posey's character (except in the finale) in the 2018 lost in space. If anything was a threat to it...she'll kill it (and/or replace it) secretly, but if something was not a threat and might help her later (like saving an unconscious engineer in the wilderness), that was fine. This way she had a tally of the good things she did as currency. Eventually, they get outed in these types of situations because something happens where they have to do something only in their interest in public.
Back to the OP: Anyone who creates a character that works against the party instead of with it (like taking most of the loot), is usually a problem. Nobody wants to play with a thief that steals from them, messes up quests by stealing quest items, or taking more than their share of the loot. Not saying you did all those things, but they are examples. Kender were rewritten because nobody would play with a character who would routinely steal from them. That said, while you definitely are only worried about your own fun and not that of the other players, the DM should have managed this right from the beginning, because soon the players will take some sort of action against you.
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E/RPG geek.
I think you should be able to pick pocket, that's the same as looting
nm
Read the original post. They don't want him secretly collecting loot that is meant for the party (and not telling them or sharing). It's the DMs fault for not handling it properly.
Food, Scifi/fantasy, anime, DND 5E/RPG geek.
If your party is legitimately upset with you stealing, consider talking to them outside the game. Talk to your DM about your concerns about them meta gaming. My suggestion would involve using perception. If their characters would be upset about you stealing, then their characters can stop you.
I play a rogue in my party and spent a whole afternoon (in the game) pickpocketing. I didn’t have to share anything. I don’t think you should have to share. The chest thing is different, but pickpocketing is fine. Let them get their own money. A rogue is a rogue and will always be a rogue. Your fellow players should learn that.
The great Silver Dragon Lord of the Sky, Second in Command of the Dragon Cult, Warlock of Cyno, and Cultist of Jeff. I have a lot of allegiances… Anyways HI! I’m Bananer, pronouns He/Him, andddddd yeah. Bye, ig.
Check out my support thread! PRAISE JEFF! Join the DragonClub! #BRINGBACKBUTTONSBEST #SAVETHEDAO
(Most of those were links, click on them!!!)
Who cares what your toon does unless it directly effects the group and messes up the story line and work your DM has done. That is the beauty of the game. Doing what you want. However when you play in a group... theres limits. Those other party members keep you alive by tanking damage or healing and your roll as a thief is to steal FOR the group, open locks, etc.
Stealing from Party / "Prestealing" - thats off limits. You piss off your party and they will let you burn. If Not a proper DM will put you on a stake and light the pyre themself!
I have personally made a point of giving hints and warnings as a DM to trouble makers in a group and if the nudges in correct direction cant be taken seriously, you will find one way or another the DM or players with the DMs help eventually will remove the problem. If it means you alone get burnt, or the whole party has to be and you dont get another invite back for next adventure, one way or another it is on the DM and group to end it.
From the way you describe the issue, personally as a DM would feed you to a dragon, let you steal from a massively over powered NPC fudge dice rolls and let them kill your toon ormake you offend a noble and hang you or find some other way to kill your thief off creatively if possible; if not possible and you got a lucky horseshoe up your ass than probably a bit more noticably like collapsing a building or cave on you and the entire party if necessary. The only difference is if I got to kill a party off, I would offer the rest of the party a way to recover and not you. Personally as a DM I do not tolerate discord of that nature in a group it ruins the game for everyone.
I have NEVER had a problem with any rogue pre picking the loot. Its their job. Unless you hired them to specifically steal for you.
Second off how do you even know they prepicked the loot pile? Unless your meta gaming and reading the module.
As long as the thief does not take the things the party are looking for and know are in the horde they would have no idea
Granted my thieves has never been so blatant as to snatch the vorpal sword and later use it in a fight. But that 1000gp gem no one knew about, yep its mine now. I thought of it as my payment for not robbing inside the towns we came into and causing trouble. I would masquerade as a low level fighter in the group.
Though I did have a group who thought I would steal everything from them and agreed to keep the thief from finding anything.(even with the DM's meta gaming help). Missions into the campaign they had to break out the "found" goods in front of my character and I called them on it. Two of the four fessed up and gave me my due but the other two refused. (the three of us even went to the Dm out of game and he eventually agreed that what he did was wrong.
A few missions later the two stubborn players found out just how dastardly my rogue could be. One died because i refused to help him and the other died because well I helped him off to the after life.
Do not meta game.
Your rogue can always ask the local guild in your next town to clean out the whole of the party in any way they would like.