For the current campaign I'm in I'm a half orc rogue. Stats with modifiers are (STR 17 DEX 15 CON 14 INTELLIGENCE 8 WISDOM 12 CHA 8). Light armor and two shortswords. I realize it's not an optimized build but the mismatch seemed fun.
In the first session I ended up "tanking" a lot more than I thought I would (group is timid and I suspect the DM is lowkey targeting me). For this reason I'm considering multiclassing.
I was level one and at the end of the session we hit level two (milestone). Next session is coming up and the DM said we just need to make sure we've decided our leveling stuff before then.
I'm thinking my path will go Rogue 1 Barb 1 Barb 2 Barb 3 Rogue 2 Rogue 3 then i'm not sure after that. (picking Totem warrior bear and swashbuckler)
What is your advice on dipping into barbarian? is there a better route to go to than the one i'm considering? Is there an order for multiclassing that's better?
Hm, I came in here expecting to say something along the lines of "sneak attacks can only be with finesse weapons and rage only works with str." but you seem to have gotten that point, great job.
I like it, do you plan on using thrown weapons for ranged attack so you can use str? I might borrow this for a character just FYI.
In addition to the barbarian lvls I would think a 1 lvl fighter dip for two-weapon fighting and second wind would be good. Or 2 lvls of Ranger for two-weapon fighting and some spells that could be healing. Personally i would go fighter.
Out of curiously what rouge subclass are you thinking.
I was thinking Swashbuckler so I could get sneak attacks on targets without my team around. I don't have the book up but I think it's Raucous Audacity.
Borrow away, it's a fun build. I actually ended up dropping a shortsword and doing a lot of grappling because the NPCs were disengaging so much.
Yeah, the DM keeps dropping daggers from goblins we fight so I got throwing weapons for days lol.
Would you recommend I do the fighter dip before I do the barbarian dip? ROG 1 FIGHTER 1 BARB 1 BAR 2 BARB 3 etc
No I would do the fighter one near lvl 5. Other players will start getting 2 attacks per round, damage cantrips start dealing more damage, and you will start to see your damage fall behind a bit without all those sneak attack dice, that is when I would do it. It at most only adds +5 (20 str) to your second attack, which +3 (17 str) damage is not super important early on. This will make your ASI (Ability Score Increase) very far behind other characters, but you could wait til rogue 4/barb 3 to get fighter 1.
Why always bear totem? Does not seem very roguey to me. I'd rather take the eagle totem for even more mobility. Or wolf for advantage. With the rogue uncanny dodge you will have enough damage mitigation. Despite the internet telling you otherwise, bear resistances are not too common compared to the normal rage resistances.
I'd maybe even won't take the 3rd level of barbarian until later. Reckless attack is the most important feature and 2 dice of sneak attack will be your main damage source.
So I'd really Start rogue 1 and would then take 2 levels of barbarian and then 2 levels of rogue.
Usual barbarian rage should suffice. Just stay at level 2 and look how common elemental damage is and how much you value team advantage or mobility. You can do rapier shield, but I wouldn´t bother. Two short swords are more stylish. 15 AC is plenty.
Usually as a rogue, especially a swashbuckler, you don´t want to stay too much in close combat. Dash in, attack, retreat. That is your usual attack routine. With two weapon fighting and sneak attack you also don´t have to worry about losing your ASI or extra attack.
At level 5 you attack with +6, 1d6+5/1d6+2 and can add 2d6 sneak attack once. That is about the same damage a regular rogue can do. You have barbarian rages which should be better than uncanny dodge in many cases. You have more hp and don´t have to worry about getting advantage. (Which as a swashbuckler you mostly don´t need.) When you finally reach level 5 in both classes you don´t have to worry anymore about damage or damage mitigation or mobility.
Why not go Wolf Totem and pick up a pair of Mastiffs? You could grapple and then send in the dogs to attack so they get advantage. Send them away when attacking normally to protect them.
Honestly, I wouldn’t go with swashbuckler for this build since reckless attack will automatically trigger your sneak attack. You also don’t have to worry much about getting in and out of combat since you will soak up damage like a sponge while raging. I would suggest the Thief subclass for a few reasons: Climbing doesn’t cost extra movement, which means any archers or casters who are perched on watchtowers are no longer safe from you. You also get to interact with objects with a bonus action instead of an action. Why is this important? Wel, if you go as far as 5 levels into Barb, you get extra attack. This frees up your bonus action to apply poison to your weapon. I’ve seen some poisons in game that are 2d10 or higher, and nothing says savage like FIRST ATTACK: weapon + mod + rage + poison SECOND ATTACK: weapon + mod + rage + sneak attack.
Also, I think the path of the Zealot is just better for this than totem since your first attack gets an additional 1d6+X (x=Half your barb level). That’s essentially better than the Rangers Collossus Slayer feature from Hunter subclass.
All this being said, if you also dip into fighter for a fighting style, you might as well go sword and board and choose Dueling to add +2 to each damage roll. Or if they allow the Spellless Ranger variant that WotC made in an article, 2 levels of that would grant you access to superiority dice and maneuvers.
And if your DM doesn’t already hate you for bringing any of this to the table, it you go far enough in fighter for an archetype, champion would be decent just to have the increased crit chance.
I would stop at one level of Barbarian at least until you get to Rogue level 5. Too much good stuff there. Reckless attack is a dream for a Rogue, but Swashbuckler's already have lots of ways to get Sneak Attack when tanking.
Take sentinel! It works great for a rogue tank. Free sneak attack!
Also, you can use sneak attack with strength as long as you're using a finesse weapon. It never says anywhere that you have to use dex to still get sneak attack.
Consider the Rogue Scout. The ability to reposition when you are engaged in Melee is pretty sweet. As is the extra movement.
Also - if you want to do more than 1 lvl fighter dip, have you considered making it a Ranger - Gloom dip instead? If you are only going to do one level of Fighter, the Mariner fighting style is pretty keen.
I would say you need to get to barb 5 as fast as possible for 2 attacks, and every level up until that point is great.
combine with rogue 3. After that you could add another class, but honestly both classes are pretty great at every level and blend well so might just as well continue rogue from there :)
Why always bear totem? Does not seem very roguey to me. I'd rather take the eagle totem for even more mobility. Or wolf for advantage. With the rogue uncanny dodge you will have enough damage mitigation. Despite the internet telling you otherwise, bear resistances are not too common compared to the normal rage resistances.
I'd maybe even won't take the 3rd level of barbarian until later. Reckless attack is the most important feature and 2 dice of sneak attack will be your main damage source.
So I'd really Start rogue 1 and would then take 2 levels of barbarian and then 2 levels of rogue.
Everybody goes Bear because they see the resistances and automatically think tank. It's just not understanding how to make certain things about barbarians work for others. Barbarians are some pretty strong tanks even without bear totem.
As for people pushing for second attack as fast as possible. It's not exactly necessary. Sneak attack can more than make up for the second attack and rage damage. That's half of the point of sneak attack. What in some ways could actually do just as good or a better job of guaranteeing hits than simply having a second attack is maximizing your ability to have advantage and/or maximizing your attack roll modifier. It works out to basically the same effect because the dice that are gained skipping those levels to push for second attack actually gets you at least 2 sneak attack dice and rogues are capable of some of the highest single attack damage capable from anybody despite sneak attack dice being d6's.
I would personally say that Swashbuckler is not a bad way to go because it does some of these things that I'm mentioning. As well as making it a bit harder for enemies to retaliate (as well as give you a clear picture if your being targeted by enemy after enemy getting certain feats to shut down your own class features. But what you might want to compensate it with is some additional effects that make your attacks even more dangerous and potentially debilitating. Start considering items, or effects that others can cast or abilities that you might pick up that might apply disadvantage to your enemies, stuns, holds, or even poison effects.
I was looking for a source to get some ideas for a back up character for an upcoming lvl 20 epic campaign (LSS my DM approved of me later becoming a mini boss against the party, playing lvl 20 Lore Mastery wizard) and I saw this post.
I was planning on playing a barb rogue, as a friend of mine had told me about how powerful it can become. So, I figured Id put my idea here and see what everyone thinks. Im open to criticism and new ideas (Ive probably got a few weeks before the campaign begins).
Race is either half orc or goliath, with starting scores Str 17, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, and Cha 8. Barbarian is the starting class
12 levels of barbarian, grabbing the Resilient for Dex saves, Tough for more sweet HP, and either Orcish Fury or Tavern Brawler (depending on race), raising scores to Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, and mental stats still chilling in the sewer. Go totem warrior for (you'll never guess!) bear totem both times, so insane resistances and more carry weight.
8 levels of rogue, picking up the Stealth skill and expertise in Athletics, Intimidation, Perception, and Stealth. ASI raises Str to 20 and Con to 18. Go Assassin for advantage against creatures who havent acted yet.
We're using boons from Obsidian Portal, and each player is allowed to start with two of those boons. I will be using Boon of Immortality, see backstory below, and Boon of Perfect Health, because backstory and advantage on Con saves.
The mechanics revolve around the old question of Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object. Regardless of race, advantage from Reckless attack activates Sneak Attack damage, and the higher crit chance from said advantage allows for Brutal Critical to shine. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Bear Totem can result in 1/4 damage from Dex saves and incoming attacks. Sticking around in barbarian for 12 levels also gives Relentless Rage, because why not become harder to kill? So, not even considering race, this boy can take more damage than a standard lvl 20 barbarian (despite having 249 HP instead of 325 HP and having a +10 to Con saves instead of +13).
Half orc for this build leans towards Unstoppable Force, with an additional crit damage die and basically a free use of Relentless Rage. Orcish Fury feat adds a free attack if the racial Relentless pops, and a once per rest extra damage die, which can be used on a crit.
Goliath is more like the Immovable Object, gaining the ability to reduce damage by 1d12 plus Con mod once per long rest. Tavern Brawler also allows him to better fight without weapons grapple as a bonus action should he throw out a helluva haymaker.
The general backstory, and reason that a barbarian would ever even think of becoming a rogue IC, is that Dai (pronounced Die) was a clan warrior whose boasts of indomitable might lead to Gruumsh (who would work for either race, as he values powerful warriors regardless of origin) challenging him. Dai would loss (even lvl 20s cant just go toe to toe with gods), and Gruumsh would bless/curse him to become an "eternal machine of war," stating that Dai will live forever until he "found, fought, and fell to a worthy opponent" (which is explained by the boons above and later with the Boon of Inedia). This event would happen five hundred years before he enters the campaign, sometime after my wizard bites the dust fighting the party.
So, some thoughts (and despite the numbering, not in any particular order)...
If you want to allow Brutal Critical to shine, you're better off going to at least Barbarian Level 13, where you get an extra die... and really, it's tempting to just stay Barbarian all the way to 17 (and if you go to 17... why not 20 ;-). Stopping at 12 really limits its impact, and that extra level in Rogue gives you an extra ASI, but not an extra Sneak Attack die.
Tavern Brawler is generally a waste for Barbarians, and arguably even more so for ones multi-classed with Rogue.
An unarmed or improvised strike is intrinsically not going to be eligible for sneak attack, so you're leaving a lot of dice on the table to pull it off.
The d4 damage adds on average 1.5 damage to your attack. Sure, if you crit, you get to roll some extra d4's for Brutal Critical and Savage Attacks, but not Orcish Fury. So you're looking at an extra 1.5 damage for your unarmed attacks that aren't crits, and 5.5 damage for ones that are. Given a strength of 20, and assuming you are raging, you are doing 1 + 5 + 3 = 9 damage with your unarmed strikes. I don't think you are going to miss the 1.5 damage, or even the 5.5 on a crit... certainly not as much as your sneak attack dice (+14 damage on average, +28 when you crit).
The bonus action grapple on a hit is nice, but of limited value.
In general, the Rogue move for grappling is to shove them prone, then spam sneak attack while they have to attack with disadvantage. Assuming you other people are fighting with your and/or you can get your hands on a finesse weapon, your goal is to them pinned as fast as possible.
You already have multiple attacks after 5th level Barbarian, and you only have to give up one of them to grapple someone, so a Barbarian/Rogue can get someone to that prone state in one round. This is the go to move for strength based Barbarian/Rogues.
Since it occurs after a hit, if you missed on your first attack, you won't have an extra attack left after you grapple to shove them prone (though obviously you could do that in the following round). That means they won't have disadvantage when attacking you, and you have one less attack in the second round to trigger sneak attack with.
If you are attacking in your first round, you're probably going to have already burned up your bonus action to rage (for advantage of Strength checks and the extra Rage damage), so Tavern Brawler doesn't help you until round 2, at which point you've hopefully already had a chance to either grapple and pin a creature, or grapple two creatures.
If you hit on your first attack, grapple, and then knock them prone for your second attack action, that's nice, but particularly with athletics expertise, your odds of getting that first hit and grapple in your bonus action are just so much lower. If you get your sneak attack on that first attack, maybe it is worth it, but otherwise, you probably would rather just lead with the grapple. This also means you get to save up your bonus action for a Cunning Action if by some miracle your grapple fails.
For a Barbarian, getting your Con to 20 should be a priority over feats in general. Constitution is just too helpful for you.
Other feats like Sentinel, Durable, Savage Attacker, and Lucky tend to be more helpful if you are going to go with a Feat (Savage Attacker is truly lovely with Sneak Attack).
Uncanny Dodge is awesome and all, but not nearly as awesome for a Barbarian as you'd think, because it uses up your reaction. As a consequence, you can only use it for one attack per round, rather than for every attack per round. Since a Barbarian is usually tanking, at the high levels you are talking about, you should expect *way* more than one attack per round, and you probably want to save your reaction for attacks of opportunity against those running away from your raging fury. It's handy for surviving that one monster attack that blows everyone away, but it generally doesn't improve the durability of high level Barbarians significantly.
I get how it is setting up thematic value for you, but Boon of Perfect Health isn't that useful for Barbarians, as your proficiency bonus plus insanely high constitution make for that crazy +13 con save, or even just +10 if you've gone multi-class. Particularly as compared to a Dwarven Barbarian, it's just not that helpful. Boon of Luck will probably come in far more handy even for that rare time when you can't make your save through. Maybe consider Boon of Recovery (though how often you need 40 more HP is debatable) or Boon of Invincibility to get across a better concept of durability.
I generally discourage Barbarians getting Tough, particularly if you haven't maxed out Constitution. If you get the +2 on Constitution, that's still +20 HP, but it is also +1 Unarmored AC, and +1 on your con save... I don't think the extra 15% or less HP is going to matter nearly as much as that other stuff. Particularly if you swap out Boon of Perfect Health as a recommend above, I think that's the better play.
At the level you're playing at, Stone's Endurance is pretty much a joke. Even if you'd maxed out Con as a level 20 Barbarian, that's on average 13.5 HP you're wiping off between rests. Having the extra carrying capacity is fun for dragging around heavy grappled creatures to toss them off ledges and such, but I'd almost be tempted to suggest going full Orc instead of Goliath, particularly given your thematic context.
Everyone thinks Bear Totem when they go Barbarian, but you might want to consider other options that line up well with you thematically. It's tough to give up the Bear Totem spirit, but there are some interesting things you can get in return.
If you are sticking with all those Barbarian levels, a Path of the Zealot could be really awesome (and tempting to go all the way to level 14 for Rage beyond Death).
Path of the Ancestral Guardian fits well thematically and makes you just a monster tank.
If you really want to go full on "unstoppable force" with maximum intimidation effect, Path of the Berserker is amazing (and Mindless Rage will come in real handy with your low mental attributes).
In general, if you are going more for the "unstoppable force" angle, I'd take fewer levels in Barbarian. In general, Barbarian/Rogues tend to get the first five levels in Barbarian, and then they go wild with the Rogue levels. There's a lot of factors to consider:
After level 5, the win from additional Barbarian levels drops off pretty dramatically beyond the extra 2 HP per level.
Every 2 levels of Rogue is another 1d6 sneak attack (2d6 on that crit you are gunning for).
You didn't mention which Rogue subclass you were going. Arcane Trickster, Inquisitive & Mastermind don't fit your theme at all, but Scout, Swashbuckler and Thief all have interesting 9th level options.
Rogue gets an extra ASI at level 10, so if you want to do all those feats, consider going 8 Barbarian/12 Rogue for a total of 6 ASI/Feats to play with. Even if you only go to 10 or 11 in Rogue, you still get as many ASI/Feats as your current build has, but you get some nice Rogue features that I'd wager are better for you than the Barbarian levels.
Do NOT underestimate the value of 11th level Rogue's Reliable Talent. It largely allows you to ignore the impact of disadvantage on ability checks where you have proficiency. At high levels and with Expertise, low rolls are often the only way to fail. Sure if you can get advantage on your ability check, that limits the risk somewhat, but even then one out of every four times, you're going to roll both dice below 10. Having Reliable Talent in your back pocket is particularly advantageous when grappling. I'd argue it is a bigger advantage than anything you get from Tavern Brawler.
At 13th level, Thief's penultimate archetype feature, Use Magic Device, can come in really handy with high level campaigns that tend to have a lot of magic items that come with restrictions/limitations to prevent the likes of you from abusing them. This let's you hack that limitation for all kinds of craziness. Not to be ignored.
If you went Scout, at 13th level you get Ambush Master, which is a good alternative to Feral Instinct, giving everyone else advantage on attacks.
At the level you are playing at, you're going to be a monster no matter what, but I think some of these tweaks will make them even more so.
I never thought about these alternatives. I can see some of these having a monstrous impact on combat, with thematic taste to boot. I would like to explain some of these choices, though, as I may have missed some points that I was hoping to convey.
- The main reason why I chose so many barbarian levels is for one main feature: Relentless Rage. Thematically, Dai is cursed with basically a special form of undeath, in which he can't die until he faces someone "worthy," or someone who can outlast his natural endurance. Relentless Rage would embody this with the ability to negate dropping to 0 HP more often than his natural Relentless trait (decided on half orc, because I'm suddenly thinking of the SCP Abel), and the Boon of Perfect health grants advantage on all Con checks (side note: I've always been screwed over on spell saves, and old habits die hard) to further highlight this while compensating for a lower Con save modifier. (This curse is also the reason I chose Bear Totem. After living for over five centuries, Dai wants to die, but Gruumsh isn't having it)
- The reason for fewer rogue levels is because of the subclass, which I did mention (one time in passing, so it fair that you may have missed it). His archetype is Assassin (hold the edgelord jokes please), with the useful feature of Assassinate. This is another area where more barb levels stack on mix ups, as Feral Instinct grants advantage on Initiative, giving Assassinate's "advantage against creatures who haven't acted in combat yet" feature a greater chance to shine. My original concept had replaced the 12th barb level with a 9th rogue level, but the Assassin Rogue's 9th level feature is both not thematic and highly situational.
- I see what you mean for the feats, though I may have been unclear on them. Orcish Fury is what I would take if I chose half orc, with Tavern Brawler's main purpose being to give that +1 I'd need for a perfect 20 Strength and no odd numbered scores. I had chosen Tough out of both habit (I almost always take tough on a melee character if I'm the one taking the beating), but I realized that Great Weapons Master would better fit my mental concept. Savage Attacker does sound very profitable.
- Boon wise, both boons are almost solely for thematic purposes, save the advantage on all Con saves bit and immunity to magic aging (leave me outta that wiggly wobbly timey-whimy stuff). My DM told my group that we would get a small number of boons when we would normally level, since you can't gain more than 20 levels, so I can quickly pick up other boons when that happens. Also, this monster will more than likely start with more than two boons. As stated above, Dai is a back up character to my wizard, who I plan to build up into a mad mage of arcane power and turn against the party (for some reason, I love playing the villain). Unless I somehow TPK with my attempt of a mimic of Sigma from Overwatch, he'll either die or gtfo when he's close to death. If you or anyone else is interested in my wizard, I'll make a new post for that.
I thank you for your advice, and I will certainly mold some of it into Dai. If anyone has more thoughts or comments, I'm still open to listen.
For the current campaign I'm in I'm a half orc rogue. Stats with modifiers are (STR 17 DEX 15 CON 14 INTELLIGENCE 8 WISDOM 12 CHA 8). Light armor and two shortswords. I realize it's not an optimized build but the mismatch seemed fun.
In the first session I ended up "tanking" a lot more than I thought I would (group is timid and I suspect the DM is lowkey targeting me). For this reason I'm considering multiclassing.
I was level one and at the end of the session we hit level two (milestone). Next session is coming up and the DM said we just need to make sure we've decided our leveling stuff before then.
I'm thinking my path will go Rogue 1 Barb 1 Barb 2 Barb 3 Rogue 2 Rogue 3 then i'm not sure after that. (picking Totem warrior bear and swashbuckler)
What is your advice on dipping into barbarian? is there a better route to go to than the one i'm considering? Is there an order for multiclassing that's better?
Hm, I came in here expecting to say something along the lines of "sneak attacks can only be with finesse weapons and rage only works with str." but you seem to have gotten that point, great job.
I like it, do you plan on using thrown weapons for ranged attack so you can use str? I might borrow this for a character just FYI.
In addition to the barbarian lvls I would think a 1 lvl fighter dip for two-weapon fighting and second wind would be good. Or 2 lvls of Ranger for two-weapon fighting and some spells that could be healing. Personally i would go fighter.
Out of curiously what rouge subclass are you thinking.
I was thinking Swashbuckler so I could get sneak attacks on targets without my team around. I don't have the book up but I think it's Raucous Audacity.
Borrow away, it's a fun build. I actually ended up dropping a shortsword and doing a lot of grappling because the NPCs were disengaging so much.
Yeah, the DM keeps dropping daggers from goblins we fight so I got throwing weapons for days lol.
Would you recommend I do the fighter dip before I do the barbarian dip? ROG 1 FIGHTER 1 BARB 1 BAR 2 BARB 3 etc
No I would do the fighter one near lvl 5. Other players will start getting 2 attacks per round, damage cantrips start dealing more damage, and you will start to see your damage fall behind a bit without all those sneak attack dice, that is when I would do it. It at most only adds +5 (20 str) to your second attack, which +3 (17 str) damage is not super important early on. This will make your ASI (Ability Score Increase) very far behind other characters, but you could wait til rogue 4/barb 3 to get fighter 1.
So Rogue 1, Barb 1, Barb 2, Barb 3, Rogue 2, Fighter 1, Rouge 3+ or Rogue 1, Barb 1, Barb 2, Barb 3, Rogue 2, Rouge 3, Rouge 4 (ASI), Fighter 1, Rouge 5+
Thank you! I think I'll go with the 2nd variant so I can use the ASI to bring my strength to 18 and dex to 16 (one more AC!).
Why always bear totem? Does not seem very roguey to me. I'd rather take the eagle totem for even more mobility. Or wolf for advantage. With the rogue uncanny dodge you will have enough damage mitigation. Despite the internet telling you otherwise, bear resistances are not too common compared to the normal rage resistances.
I'd maybe even won't take the 3rd level of barbarian until later. Reckless attack is the most important feature and 2 dice of sneak attack will be your main damage source.
So I'd really Start rogue 1 and would then take 2 levels of barbarian and then 2 levels of rogue.
You have a point. Regular rage does cover many common damage types, especially for low level combat.
It may be a few levels before I can get uncanny dodge (rogue 5). How will I prevent damage until then? Rapier shield combo?
Usual barbarian rage should suffice. Just stay at level 2 and look how common elemental damage is and how much you value team advantage or mobility. You can do rapier shield, but I wouldn´t bother. Two short swords are more stylish. 15 AC is plenty.
Usually as a rogue, especially a swashbuckler, you don´t want to stay too much in close combat. Dash in, attack, retreat. That is your usual attack routine. With two weapon fighting and sneak attack you also don´t have to worry about losing your ASI or extra attack.
At level 5 you attack with +6, 1d6+5/1d6+2 and can add 2d6 sneak attack once. That is about the same damage a regular rogue can do. You have barbarian rages which should be better than uncanny dodge in many cases. You have more hp and don´t have to worry about getting advantage. (Which as a swashbuckler you mostly don´t need.) When you finally reach level 5 in both classes you don´t have to worry anymore about damage or damage mitigation or mobility.
Why not go Wolf Totem and pick up a pair of Mastiffs? You could grapple and then send in the dogs to attack so they get advantage. Send them away when attacking normally to protect them.
Honestly, I wouldn’t go with swashbuckler for this build since reckless attack will automatically trigger your sneak attack. You also don’t have to worry much about getting in and out of combat since you will soak up damage like a sponge while raging. I would suggest the Thief subclass for a few reasons: Climbing doesn’t cost extra movement, which means any archers or casters who are perched on watchtowers are no longer safe from you. You also get to interact with objects with a bonus action instead of an action. Why is this important? Wel, if you go as far as 5 levels into Barb, you get extra attack. This frees up your bonus action to apply poison to your weapon. I’ve seen some poisons in game that are 2d10 or higher, and nothing says savage like FIRST ATTACK: weapon + mod + rage + poison SECOND ATTACK: weapon + mod + rage + sneak attack.
Also, I think the path of the Zealot is just better for this than totem since your first attack gets an additional 1d6+X (x=Half your barb level). That’s essentially better than the Rangers Collossus Slayer feature from Hunter subclass.
All this being said, if you also dip into fighter for a fighting style, you might as well go sword and board and choose Dueling to add +2 to each damage roll. Or if they allow the Spellless Ranger variant that WotC made in an article, 2 levels of that would grant you access to superiority dice and maneuvers.
And if your DM doesn’t already hate you for bringing any of this to the table, it you go far enough in fighter for an archetype, champion would be decent just to have the increased crit chance.
I would stop at one level of Barbarian at least until you get to Rogue level 5. Too much good stuff there. Reckless attack is a dream for a Rogue, but Swashbuckler's already have lots of ways to get Sneak Attack when tanking.
Take sentinel! It works great for a rogue tank. Free sneak attack!
Also, you can use sneak attack with strength as long as you're using a finesse weapon. It never says anywhere that you have to use dex to still get sneak attack.
Consider the Rogue Scout. The ability to reposition when you are engaged in Melee is pretty sweet. As is the extra movement.
Also - if you want to do more than 1 lvl fighter dip, have you considered making it a Ranger - Gloom dip instead? If you are only going to do one level of Fighter, the Mariner fighting style is pretty keen.
Even with finesse weapons would he not still be able to rage? Finesse can use strength rolls.
I would say you need to get to barb 5 as fast as possible for 2 attacks, and every level up until that point is great.
combine with rogue 3. After that you could add another class, but honestly both classes are pretty great at every level and blend well so might just as well continue rogue from there :)
That would be pretty cool, and usable though not perfect. More of a ruffian than a straight thief. Like some street muscle, but for your party!
Everybody goes Bear because they see the resistances and automatically think tank. It's just not understanding how to make certain things about barbarians work for others. Barbarians are some pretty strong tanks even without bear totem.
As for people pushing for second attack as fast as possible. It's not exactly necessary. Sneak attack can more than make up for the second attack and rage damage. That's half of the point of sneak attack. What in some ways could actually do just as good or a better job of guaranteeing hits than simply having a second attack is maximizing your ability to have advantage and/or maximizing your attack roll modifier. It works out to basically the same effect because the dice that are gained skipping those levels to push for second attack actually gets you at least 2 sneak attack dice and rogues are capable of some of the highest single attack damage capable from anybody despite sneak attack dice being d6's.
I would personally say that Swashbuckler is not a bad way to go because it does some of these things that I'm mentioning. As well as making it a bit harder for enemies to retaliate (as well as give you a clear picture if your being targeted by enemy after enemy getting certain feats to shut down your own class features. But what you might want to compensate it with is some additional effects that make your attacks even more dangerous and potentially debilitating. Start considering items, or effects that others can cast or abilities that you might pick up that might apply disadvantage to your enemies, stuns, holds, or even poison effects.
I was looking for a source to get some ideas for a back up character for an upcoming lvl 20 epic campaign (LSS my DM approved of me later becoming a mini boss against the party, playing lvl 20 Lore Mastery wizard) and I saw this post.
I was planning on playing a barb rogue, as a friend of mine had told me about how powerful it can become. So, I figured Id put my idea here and see what everyone thinks. Im open to criticism and new ideas (Ive probably got a few weeks before the campaign begins).
Race is either half orc or goliath, with starting scores Str 17, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 8, and Cha 8. Barbarian is the starting class
12 levels of barbarian, grabbing the Resilient for Dex saves, Tough for more sweet HP, and either Orcish Fury or Tavern Brawler (depending on race), raising scores to Str 18, Dex 16, Con 16, and mental stats still chilling in the sewer. Go totem warrior for (you'll never guess!) bear totem both times, so insane resistances and more carry weight.
8 levels of rogue, picking up the Stealth skill and expertise in Athletics, Intimidation, Perception, and Stealth. ASI raises Str to 20 and Con to 18. Go Assassin for advantage against creatures who havent acted yet.
We're using boons from Obsidian Portal, and each player is allowed to start with two of those boons. I will be using Boon of Immortality, see backstory below, and Boon of Perfect Health, because backstory and advantage on Con saves.
The mechanics revolve around the old question of Unstoppable Force vs Immovable Object. Regardless of race, advantage from Reckless attack activates Sneak Attack damage, and the higher crit chance from said advantage allows for Brutal Critical to shine. Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, and Bear Totem can result in 1/4 damage from Dex saves and incoming attacks. Sticking around in barbarian for 12 levels also gives Relentless Rage, because why not become harder to kill? So, not even considering race, this boy can take more damage than a standard lvl 20 barbarian (despite having 249 HP instead of 325 HP and having a +10 to Con saves instead of +13).
Half orc for this build leans towards Unstoppable Force, with an additional crit damage die and basically a free use of Relentless Rage. Orcish Fury feat adds a free attack if the racial Relentless pops, and a once per rest extra damage die, which can be used on a crit.
Goliath is more like the Immovable Object, gaining the ability to reduce damage by 1d12 plus Con mod once per long rest. Tavern Brawler also allows him to better fight without weapons grapple as a bonus action should he throw out a helluva haymaker.
The general backstory, and reason that a barbarian would ever even think of becoming a rogue IC, is that Dai (pronounced Die) was a clan warrior whose boasts of indomitable might lead to Gruumsh (who would work for either race, as he values powerful warriors regardless of origin) challenging him. Dai would loss (even lvl 20s cant just go toe to toe with gods), and Gruumsh would bless/curse him to become an "eternal machine of war," stating that Dai will live forever until he "found, fought, and fell to a worthy opponent" (which is explained by the boons above and later with the Boon of Inedia). This event would happen five hundred years before he enters the campaign, sometime after my wizard bites the dust fighting the party.
So, this was longer than intended. Thoughts?
So, some thoughts (and despite the numbering, not in any particular order)...
At the level you are playing at, you're going to be a monster no matter what, but I think some of these tweaks will make them even more so.
I never thought about these alternatives. I can see some of these having a monstrous impact on combat, with thematic taste to boot. I would like to explain some of these choices, though, as I may have missed some points that I was hoping to convey.
- The main reason why I chose so many barbarian levels is for one main feature: Relentless Rage. Thematically, Dai is cursed with basically a special form of undeath, in which he can't die until he faces someone "worthy," or someone who can outlast his natural endurance. Relentless Rage would embody this with the ability to negate dropping to 0 HP more often than his natural Relentless trait (decided on half orc, because I'm suddenly thinking of the SCP Abel), and the Boon of Perfect health grants advantage on all Con checks (side note: I've always been screwed over on spell saves, and old habits die hard) to further highlight this while compensating for a lower Con save modifier. (This curse is also the reason I chose Bear Totem. After living for over five centuries, Dai wants to die, but Gruumsh isn't having it)
- The reason for fewer rogue levels is because of the subclass, which I did mention (one time in passing, so it fair that you may have missed it). His archetype is Assassin (hold the edgelord jokes please), with the useful feature of Assassinate. This is another area where more barb levels stack on mix ups, as Feral Instinct grants advantage on Initiative, giving Assassinate's "advantage against creatures who haven't acted in combat yet" feature a greater chance to shine. My original concept had replaced the 12th barb level with a 9th rogue level, but the Assassin Rogue's 9th level feature is both not thematic and highly situational.
- I see what you mean for the feats, though I may have been unclear on them. Orcish Fury is what I would take if I chose half orc, with Tavern Brawler's main purpose being to give that +1 I'd need for a perfect 20 Strength and no odd numbered scores. I had chosen Tough out of both habit (I almost always take tough on a melee character if I'm the one taking the beating), but I realized that Great Weapons Master would better fit my mental concept. Savage Attacker does sound very profitable.
- Boon wise, both boons are almost solely for thematic purposes, save the advantage on all Con saves bit and immunity to magic aging (leave me outta that wiggly wobbly timey-whimy stuff). My DM told my group that we would get a small number of boons when we would normally level, since you can't gain more than 20 levels, so I can quickly pick up other boons when that happens. Also, this monster will more than likely start with more than two boons. As stated above, Dai is a back up character to my wizard, who I plan to build up into a mad mage of arcane power and turn against the party (for some reason, I love playing the villain). Unless I somehow TPK with my attempt of a mimic of Sigma from Overwatch, he'll either die or gtfo when he's close to death. If you or anyone else is interested in my wizard, I'll make a new post for that.
I thank you for your advice, and I will certainly mold some of it into Dai. If anyone has more thoughts or comments, I'm still open to listen.