I agree with everything you said. I just think that the difference in damage between suboptimal (everything that does not get two attacks in round) and optimal (everything that does) is pretty high. Usually to find a disparity that big you have to really dig into the mechanics of the game and come up with an optimal build. This one you just have to attack with your bonus action. I guess the point of this thread started out as one thing but has evolved into just pointing out the disparity.
I am absolutely new to D & D. My question is: Can Uncanny Dodge be used more than once per turn if there are multiple attackers? Or is each attacker considered a separate turn?
It is exceptionally easy for both Inqusitive and Swashbuckler builds to get sneak-attacks every round. I'm not sure how you're doing your math, but played right Rogues can consistently dish serious damage. The bigger thing to me is what Rogues bring to the table for the party outside of damage. They're accomplished liars, deceivers, investigators, and well... rogues. It's good to have one on your side.
You make a lot of assumptions that may or may not be accurate, but I don't particularly care to audit your formulas (taking a break from my own work spreadsheets 😂). Simply taking your calculated DPR at face value, I see no problems with Rogue damage in any way. Those values are respectably high, and really not many other martial builds have higher potentials. Rogues also have sooo many ways to ensure they get their sneak attack damage while being versatile on the battlefield. Rogues are designed to be "played intelligently" on the battlefield.
Barbarians & Fighters should have higher damage output than a Rogue; it's their thing. Rogues have incredible damage output and versatility while doing it. They don't have the lowest HP pool either, nor is it really even a problem. Rogues aren't actually "martial" classes like Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger. Since it seems like pure combat prowess is what your priority is (which is fine!), I'd recommend you play one of those classes instead of Rogue.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If you can gain proficiency with poison kits, which isnt guaranteed unless your an assassin, Its worth considering hunting, knocking out and farming Carrion Crawlers, or at least having a dose of their toxin on you. Missile (ammunition) can be dosed at a rate of three to one, its contact based (thats why you really want proficiency) and a failed save can set up a round with a paralyzed target and melee auto crits on a successful hit. Thats rather beneficial to sneak attacks, especially one where your dagger for close up kills has snake venom or worse on it.
At 1st to 4th a rogue can deal the same or more than a fighter.
At 5th all classes with extra attack can do more than your scaling sneak die, and on top of that if you miss once your probably out of luck
At 11th fighters are juggernauts.
If your lack of damage has become an issue for your game and you want to maximise yours then try magic initiate (warlock) and choose hex and greenflame blade. The hex is +1d6 / hit and deployed from stealth can be used to lower wisdom (perception) checks to aid in sneaking closer. Greenflame blade allows a melee attack which adds 1d8 at level 5. 2d8 at 11 and 3d8 at 17th It will also announce your presence, so dont use it on the first of a group. Distracting someone with a shiny coin coated in crawler mucous and holding your attack for when they pick it up means they may be paralyzed and bent over when you attack from behind. If this seems situational, it is. Thats rogues in a nutshell, its about the set up.
OP: What % of the time do you have rogue gaining advantage? Also, what levels and target AC are you comparing?
Suppose a rogue 20 (subclass unspecified) takes Magic Initiate: Wizard. Spells are Find Familiar, Booming Blade, and Green-Flame Blade. Advantage (via owl familiar/flyby/Help) on every attack, each of which do 4d8+10d6+5 (+4d8). Hits will be frequent, crits will be 9.5% (assuming non-elf, non-EA), and pursuit by target will be costly whenever the rogue chooses to disengage.
Fighter permutations are complex; e.g. a fighter with Magic Initiate: Warlock can take Hex and get 2d6 (avg 8.33 with GWF)+d6+15 four times, and even if he can’t (mechanically) claim permanent advantage, outperforms the barb at 20th. (Maneuvers and Improved Crit both improve this further.)
Barb is 2d6+15 twice, and crits don’t add nearly as much value. (Frenzy improves this if applicable.) How is barb winning the DPS race in your calculations? He looks to me like he should lose by a quite a bit using relatively simple assumptions.
Why do I need rogues to do the most damage in the world? Think people.
Who else at level 11 can reliably force a caster to make between a 15 and 20 concentration check every round in addition to taking 30-40 damage.
Not sure about anyone else but that seems like around 40-65% chance of causing that caster to lose concentration at that level if not more for NPC casters.
Whereas a fighter might make them make more saves but they make them 90-100% of the time.
Also factor in most DPR charts don't figure in off-round SA. Be creative, just as an example with Arcane Trickster and/or a feat or two there's a lot of ways to do to get off-round SA.
Also don't be afraid to use bonus action duel wielding if you miss. (You are a high damage being, let Uncanny Dodge do its work if you need to).
Rogues with crossbow mastery and sharpshooter can pull ridiculous amounts of damage and the amount of utility and skills rogues get makes it hard to play other classes with less skill proficiency/expertise because of how spoiled I was as a rogue. Plus with the new UA skill that allows you to use your bonus action CA aim, and the new feat allowing you to take two weapon fighting without a class dip... I mean I felt rogues were already one of the most fun classes to play but I don't think there really is any issue with their damage even without those two new additions
The problem with sharpshooter as a rogue is you only have a single shot unless you take crossbow expert. The -5 to hit might hurt more than it helps over time and if you take the UA feat to offset that a little, you're looking at three feats. That means you're not going to have a very high dexterity for a while. And compared to a fighter with two to five attacks with the same setup you're still behind in damage.
Cunning action aim is a great solution to the problem. Arguably the best option. Hopefully that makes it into Tasha's. Mathematically speaking rogue damage isn't all that great but on demand advantage is a great solution. Cunning action hide is too unreliable.
The only issue is it's a very good ability to dip rogue for a multiclass. That's nothing new though. There are plenty of good multiclass dips out there.
Setting aside the narrative that damage is the be-all-end-all of class balance, I disagree with the idea that rogues have low damage output. They don't. With a reliable Sneak Attack, the rogue's damage output is comparable to a fighter armed with a greatsword throughout both of their careers.
I dislike the flanking rule because it makes getting advantage too easy. It discourages characters from looking for other ways of getting/granting advantage. There are so many spells and abilities that can grant advantage, that not using them makes the game boring.
the rogue is definitely the class that does the most damage in d&d! Especially if he is found to have the snak attack assured every turn and the right talent.
If i were to make a Rogue OP, i would do it like this:
Race : high elf
Weapon: Rapier 1d8 + dex + sneak attack
Subclass: Arcane Trickster
Since the thief has only one attack why not make it become a magical attack too. Bomming blade, Green-flame blade or Glacial blade. which give damage that adds to the sneak attack and this damage increases with the level!
SHADOW BLADE (this is surely the spell of excellence)
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends (1 min = 10rounds). It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.
So the arcane Trickster at level 13 I would have this ability:
Versatile Trickster
At 13th level, you gain the ability to distract targets with your Mage Hand. As a bonus action on your turn, you can designate a creature within 5 feet of the spectral hand created by the spell. Doing so gives you advantage on attack rolls against that creature until the end of the turn.
The Feats not to be missed are:
MOBILE
You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
Your speed increases by 10 feet.
When you use the Dash action, difficult terrain doesn’t cost you extra movement on that turn.
When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don’t provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of the turn, whether you hit or not.
ELVEN ACCURACY
Prerequisite: Elf or half-elf
The accuracy of elves is legendary, especially that of elf archers and spellcasters. You have uncanny aim with attacks that rely on precision rather than brute force. You gain the following benefits:
Increase your Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
Whenever you have advantage on an attack roll using Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma, you can reroll one of the dice once.
Mobile :This feat allows me not to have to use my buns for disengage and so use it for the "Versatile Trickster" skill and thus have an advantage every turn.
Elven accuracy: Since I've now secured the advantage every turn, with this feat I can make sure I hit and INCREASE THE CHANCE TO HAVE A CRITIC! The critic allows you to roll double the dice, thus also the sneak attack.
To conclude since I made a thief with a good score in int I do 2 levels of Wizard Bladesinging.
Bladesong
Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke an elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren’t wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus.
You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time (no action required).
While your Bladesong is active, you gain the following benefits:
You gain a bonus to your AC equal to your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1)
Your walking speed increases by 10 feet.
You have advantage on Dexterity (Acrobatics) checks.
You gain a bonus to any Constitution saving throw you make to maintain your concentration on a spell. The bonus equals your Intelligence modifier (minimum of +1).
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.
Why not? booming blade or green-flame blade, don't have the concentration requisite and can be used with any mele weapons. shadow blade is like a magical weapon and can be used for 1 minute with concetration. I don't understand where is the problem.
There is no problem. You can absolutely use Shadow Blade and Booming Blade together. There is nothing anywhere that even hints at this not working.
The Arcane Trickster using those two spells together can certainly pump out some damage. Trouble is, that's only one build. The rest of the builds or subclasses were not competitive. That said, the new Steady Aim feature fixes all the issues the Rogue had with damage output and their numbers are very competitive now.
All of the spells from SCAG were reprinted in Tasha's, in some cases with errata. The spells BB and GFB now require a material component of one weapon worth 1 sp or more. Shadow Blade fails to meet this requirement. By RAW, they are incompatible.
A popular attack combination is being nerfed in Dungeons & Dragons' next expansion. Earlier this week, Dungeons & Dragons released a set of errata for its older publications, to reflect some revisions being made in the upcoming expansion Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. One of the more notable changes is to the spell booming blade, a popular cantrip used by many melee spellcasters. The spell was revised to remove its synchronicity with several feats and other spells, mostly through changing its range and component cost. Notably, the errata revealed that booming blade could no longer be stacked with the spell shadow blade, as booming blade now requires a material component - a melee weapon worth at least 1 silver piece.
Previously, a player could cast shadow blade as a bonus action and then booming blade as an action and stack the damage on the two spells. This was a particularly popular combination for Arcane Trickster rogues, who could also throw in their Sneak Attack damage for even more damage when using the shadow blade in dim light or darkness.
Because of its ability to force opponents to either stay where they are or take damage when they willingly moves, booming blade is a popular cantrip. Although the revisions to booming blade somewhat nerfs the spell (it's no longer eligible for the twinned or distant metamagic options, nor can it be used in conjunction with the spell sniper feat), players with the war caster spell can still use it as a reaction. D&D rules designer Jeremy Crawford confirmed the spell still worked with the war caster feat on Twitter.
ok, I've seen where the problem lies, but that doesn't negate the fact that this class does a lot of damage!
I never said the rogue wasn't capable of a lot of damage. But it's all-or-nothing and other classes can still outperform it. I just wanted to correct a misconception about spell-synergy.
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I agree with everything you said. I just think that the difference in damage between suboptimal (everything that does not get two attacks in round) and optimal (everything that does) is pretty high. Usually to find a disparity that big you have to really dig into the mechanics of the game and come up with an optimal build. This one you just have to attack with your bonus action. I guess the point of this thread started out as one thing but has evolved into just pointing out the disparity.
I am absolutely new to D & D. My question is: Can Uncanny Dodge be used more than once per turn if there are multiple attackers? Or is each attacker considered a separate turn?
You spend your reaction using uncanny dodge, and you only have one reaction each round, thus only against 1 per round :)
It is exceptionally easy for both Inqusitive and Swashbuckler builds to get sneak-attacks every round. I'm not sure how you're doing your math, but played right Rogues can consistently dish serious damage. The bigger thing to me is what Rogues bring to the table for the party outside of damage. They're accomplished liars, deceivers, investigators, and well... rogues. It's good to have one on your side.
You make a lot of assumptions that may or may not be accurate, but I don't particularly care to audit your formulas (taking a break from my own work spreadsheets 😂). Simply taking your calculated DPR at face value, I see no problems with Rogue damage in any way. Those values are respectably high, and really not many other martial builds have higher potentials. Rogues also have sooo many ways to ensure they get their sneak attack damage while being versatile on the battlefield. Rogues are designed to be "played intelligently" on the battlefield.
Barbarians & Fighters should have higher damage output than a Rogue; it's their thing. Rogues have incredible damage output and versatility while doing it. They don't have the lowest HP pool either, nor is it really even a problem. Rogues aren't actually "martial" classes like Barbarian/Fighter/Paladin/Ranger. Since it seems like pure combat prowess is what your priority is (which is fine!), I'd recommend you play one of those classes instead of Rogue.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
If you can gain proficiency with poison kits, which isnt guaranteed unless your an assassin, Its worth considering hunting, knocking out and farming Carrion Crawlers, or at least having a dose of their toxin on you. Missile (ammunition) can be dosed at a rate of three to one, its contact based (thats why you really want proficiency) and a failed save can set up a round with a paralyzed target and melee auto crits on a successful hit. Thats rather beneficial to sneak attacks, especially one where your dagger for close up kills has snake venom or worse on it.
At 1st to 4th a rogue can deal the same or more than a fighter.
At 5th all classes with extra attack can do more than your scaling sneak die, and on top of that if you miss once your probably out of luck
At 11th fighters are juggernauts.
If your lack of damage has become an issue for your game and you want to maximise yours then try magic initiate (warlock) and choose hex and greenflame blade. The hex is +1d6 / hit and deployed from stealth can be used to lower wisdom (perception) checks to aid in sneaking closer. Greenflame blade allows a melee attack which adds 1d8 at level 5. 2d8 at 11 and 3d8 at 17th It will also announce your presence, so dont use it on the first of a group. Distracting someone with a shiny coin coated in crawler mucous and holding your attack for when they pick it up means they may be paralyzed and bent over when you attack from behind. If this seems situational, it is. Thats rogues in a nutshell, its about the set up.
OP: What % of the time do you have rogue gaining advantage? Also, what levels and target AC are you comparing?
Suppose a rogue 20 (subclass unspecified) takes Magic Initiate: Wizard. Spells are Find Familiar, Booming Blade, and Green-Flame Blade. Advantage (via owl familiar/flyby/Help) on every attack, each of which do 4d8+10d6+5 (+4d8). Hits will be frequent, crits will be 9.5% (assuming non-elf, non-EA), and pursuit by target will be costly whenever the rogue chooses to disengage.
Fighter permutations are complex; e.g. a fighter with Magic Initiate: Warlock can take Hex and get 2d6 (avg 8.33 with GWF)+d6+15 four times, and even if he can’t (mechanically) claim permanent advantage, outperforms the barb at 20th. (Maneuvers and Improved Crit both improve this further.)
Barb is 2d6+15 twice, and crits don’t add nearly as much value. (Frenzy improves this if applicable.) How is barb winning the DPS race in your calculations? He looks to me like he should lose by a quite a bit using relatively simple assumptions.
Why do I need rogues to do the most damage in the world? Think people.
Who else at level 11 can reliably force a caster to make between a 15 and 20 concentration check every round in addition to taking 30-40 damage.
Not sure about anyone else but that seems like around 40-65% chance of causing that caster to lose concentration at that level if not more for NPC casters.
Whereas a fighter might make them make more saves but they make them 90-100% of the time.
Also factor in most DPR charts don't figure in off-round SA. Be creative, just as an example with Arcane Trickster and/or a feat or two there's a lot of ways to do to get off-round SA.
Also don't be afraid to use bonus action duel wielding if you miss. (You are a high damage being, let Uncanny Dodge do its work if you need to).
Rogues with crossbow mastery and sharpshooter can pull ridiculous amounts of damage and the amount of utility and skills rogues get makes it hard to play other classes with less skill proficiency/expertise because of how spoiled I was as a rogue. Plus with the new UA skill that allows you to use your bonus action CA aim, and the new feat allowing you to take two weapon fighting without a class dip... I mean I felt rogues were already one of the most fun classes to play but I don't think there really is any issue with their damage even without those two new additions
The problem with sharpshooter as a rogue is you only have a single shot unless you take crossbow expert. The -5 to hit might hurt more than it helps over time and if you take the UA feat to offset that a little, you're looking at three feats. That means you're not going to have a very high dexterity for a while. And compared to a fighter with two to five attacks with the same setup you're still behind in damage.
Cunning action aim is a great solution to the problem. Arguably the best option. Hopefully that makes it into Tasha's. Mathematically speaking rogue damage isn't all that great but on demand advantage is a great solution. Cunning action hide is too unreliable.
The only issue is it's a very good ability to dip rogue for a multiclass. That's nothing new though. There are plenty of good multiclass dips out there.
Setting aside the narrative that damage is the be-all-end-all of class balance, I disagree with the idea that rogues have low damage output. They don't. With a reliable Sneak Attack, the rogue's damage output is comparable to a fighter armed with a greatsword throughout both of their careers.
I dislike the flanking rule because it makes getting advantage too easy. It discourages characters from looking for other ways of getting/granting advantage. There are so many spells and abilities that can grant advantage, that not using them makes the game boring.
the rogue is definitely the class that does the most damage in d&d! Especially if he is found to have the snak attack assured every turn and the right talent.
If i were to make a Rogue OP, i would do it like this:
Race : high elf
Weapon: Rapier 1d8 + dex + sneak attack
Subclass: Arcane Trickster
Since the thief has only one attack why not make it become a magical attack too. Bomming blade, Green-flame blade or Glacial blade. which give damage that adds to the sneak attack and this damage increases with the level!
SHADOW BLADE (this is surely the spell of excellence)
You weave together threads of shadow to create a sword of solidified gloom in your hand. This magic sword lasts until the spell ends (1 min = 10 rounds). It counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. It deals 2d8 psychic damage on a hit and has the finesse, light, and thrown properties (range 20/60). In addition, when you use the sword to attack a target that is in dim light or darkness, you make the attack roll with advantage.
Damage: 2d8(shadow blade) + ~2d8 (cantrip) + dex + 5d6 (sneak attack lev 10)
So the arcane Trickster at level 13 I would have this ability:
Versatile Trickster
At 13th level, you gain the ability to distract targets with your Mage Hand. As a bonus action on your turn, you can designate a creature within 5 feet of the spectral hand created by the spell. Doing so gives you advantage on attack rolls against that creature until the end of the turn.
The Feats not to be missed are:
MOBILE
You are exceptionally speedy and agile. You gain the following benefits:
ELVEN ACCURACY
Prerequisite: Elf or half-elf
The accuracy of elves is legendary, especially that of elf archers and spellcasters. You have uncanny aim with attacks that rely on precision rather than brute force. You gain the following benefits:
Mobile :This feat allows me not to have to use my buns for disengage and so use it for the "Versatile Trickster" skill and thus have an advantage every turn.
Elven accuracy: Since I've now secured the advantage every turn, with this feat I can make sure I hit and INCREASE THE CHANCE TO HAVE A CRITIC! The critic allows you to roll double the dice, thus also the sneak attack.
Damage: 2d8(shadow blade) + ~3d8 (cantrip) + dex + 7d6 (sneak attack lev 13)
Critical damage : 4d8(shadow blade) + ~6d8 (cantrip) + dex + 14d6 (sneak attack lev 13)
To conclude since I made a thief with a good score in int I do 2 levels of Wizard Bladesinging.
Bladesong
Starting at 2nd level, you can invoke an elven magic called the Bladesong, provided that you aren’t wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield. It graces you with supernatural speed, agility, and focus.
You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon. You can also dismiss the Bladesong at any time (no action required).
While your Bladesong is active, you gain the following benefits:
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses of it when you finish a long rest.
You can't use shadow blade to cast either booming blade or green-flame blade.
Why not? booming blade or green-flame blade, don't have the concentration requisite and can be used with any mele weapons. shadow blade is like a magical weapon and can be used for 1 minute with concetration. I don't understand where is the problem.
There is no problem. You can absolutely use Shadow Blade and Booming Blade together. There is nothing anywhere that even hints at this not working.The Arcane Trickster using those two spells together can certainly pump out some damage. Trouble is, that's only one build. The rest of the builds or subclasses were not competitive. That said, the new Steady Aim feature fixes all the issues the Rogue had with damage output and their numbers are very competitive now.
All of the spells from SCAG were reprinted in Tasha's, in some cases with errata. The spells BB and GFB now require a material component of one weapon worth 1 sp or more. Shadow Blade fails to meet this requirement. By RAW, they are incompatible.
Because of its ability to force opponents to either stay where they are or take damage when they willingly moves, booming blade is a popular cantrip. Although the revisions to booming blade somewhat nerfs the spell (it's no longer eligible for the twinned or distant metamagic options, nor can it be used in conjunction with the spell sniper feat), players with the war caster spell can still use it as a reaction. D&D rules designer Jeremy Crawford confirmed the spell still worked with the war caster feat on Twitter.
ok, I've seen where the problem lies, but that doesn't negate the fact that this class does a lot of damage!
I never said the rogue wasn't capable of a lot of damage. But it's all-or-nothing and other classes can still outperform it. I just wanted to correct a misconception about spell-synergy.