Hello, I wanted to give this build https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Max_Damage_Rogue_Edition_(5e_Optimized_Character_Build) a try. I had a question though. Instead of taking the Magic Initiate feat with my rogue assassin to get hex, wouldn't it be better to do a one level dip into warlock? Seems like this would be pretty much the same except now you can cast hex once per short rest instead of long rest. You do miss out on stroke of luck at level 20, but that seems like a fair trade off. Am I missing something?
Nope, on the face of things I would tend to agree, but there is the slight delay in your rogue abilities (something few consider with multiclass) it also requires you have at least 13 Charisma.
Hexblade would probably be the most useful, allowing you to have both the hexblades curse available and the hex spell, also consider if you are already investing in the charisma stat taking that second level for some eldritch invocations and a second spell slot, beware of going down the multiclass rabbit hole and reaching for that next cool ability though as for a dip one or two levels is probably for the best.
Invocations you might consider.
Armor of Shadows
You can cast mage armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components. Little bit of armor boost
Devil’s Sight
You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet. No darkness can stop this assassin.
Eldritch Sight
You can cast detect magic at will, without expending a spell slot. Helps to know when there is magic about.
Mask of Many Faces
You can cast disguise self at will, without expending a spell slot. Helps to never be recognized.
Misty Visions
You can cast silent image at will, without expending a spell slot or material components. Need a distraction? Nothing quite so distracting as a couple dead bodies lying around, especially if they start moving.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Good luck, and have fun, make some awesome roleplaying from it all.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Honestly there are good tradeoffs at multiple levels. With the level 1 dip, you give up Stroke of Luck for hex and hexblade's curse (or whatever patron you go for). Both rub up against using bonus action for cunning action or an off hand attack. Not a horrible trade off but Stroke of Luck does help a lot with that opening round auto critical sneak attack. Missing that opening around is awful. If you're taking one level, looking at a larger dip is worth considering. A 2 level dip gives you some Eldritch invocations as HeroZero mentioned. So far this costs you a sneak attack di, an ASI, and stroke of luck. I feel like you're giving up a lot for a 2 level dip. However, if you are interested in a 2 level dip, you can take one more level in Warlock and only give up elusive from Rogue. A dip this far gives you level 2 spells and a pact boon. A few spells of note here are Invisibility,Shadow Blade,Hold Person, and you can also smite for added damage on that opening nova round. Any further and you'd want to take a lot of levels for the tradeoffs to be worth it. I think the 3 level dip is probably the way I'd go. Going 4 would gain you an ASI at the cost of your marquee level 17 assassin ability, Death Strike, and another sneak attack di. I would avoid that unless you're looking to take a much larger dip into warlock, likely at least to 7. That would get you level 4 spells for Shadow of Moil, or perhaps Greater Invisibility (if you went for Archfey). You'd also get a second attack at level 5. That would really only cost you a few sneak attack dice from a level 3 dip.
I actually forgot at three would give the level two spells (not super important for hex) but as you mentioned there are some other interesting possibilities.
Then it comes to what do you take for your Pact Boon be. My first thought is Tome for some extra cantrip options with the extra thought of the invocation for Book of Ancient Secrets for Ritual spells to cast out of combat. This would add a lot of flexibility (and some interesting cantrips) to the build. Commune with the gods to see if your next assassination will have a good outcome type thing.
Next thought was Pact of the chain, because having a familiar that can go invisible and help with scouting could be quite handy to an assassin. Also a viable option for creating distractions regardless of which familiar is chosen. Secondary possibilities around Gift of the Ever Living Ones giving you more potent healing on yourself as the assassin that just doesn't die, or the Voice of the Chain Master for some super cool RP ideas revolving around you using the familiar in interesting situations.
Initially I thought Pact of the Blade would be just worthless but it could still be an interesting thing for an assassin. For an example, using the Mage Armor invocation and the Pact of the Blade you could walk into a room with no weapons or armor visible and then if things go south you conjure up your armor and a blade magically appears in your hand. This could still be done with something like Shadow Blade as well but it is still a cool idea to me. Also would allow you to take the Improved Pact Weapon and make it appear as a bow or crossbow which would be a perfect assassin tool.
For reference of the invocations mentioned.
Book of Ancient Secrets Prerequisite: Pact of the Tome feature
You can now inscribe magical rituals in your Book of Shadows. Choose two 1st-level spells that have the ritual tag from any class’s spell list (the two needn’t be from the same list). The spells appear in the book and don’t count against the number of spells you know. With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can’t cast the spells except as rituals, unless you’ve learned them by some other means. You can also cast a warlock spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag.
On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell’s level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell. For each level of the spell, the transcription process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp for the rare inks needed to inscribe it.
Gift of the Ever-Living Ones Prerequisite: Pact of the Chain feature
Whenever you regain hit points while your familiar is within 100 feet of you, treat any dice rolled to determine the hit points you regain as having rolled their maximum value for you.
Improved Pact Weapon Prerequisite: Pact of the Blade feature
You can use any weapon you summon with your Pact of the Blade feature as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells. In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus to its attack and damage rolls, unless it is a magic weapon that already has a bonus to those rolls. Finally, the weapon you conjure can be a shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow.
Voice of the Chain Master Prerequisite: Pact of the Chain feature
You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally, while perceiving through your familiar’s senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.
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"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Wow, thanks again. Some interesting options mentioned here. I was resolved to only a two level dip, but now I'm not so sure. Lol. I will definitely play with the other suggestions in the builder tool to see what looks like the most fun. Thank you both for taking the time to help me out. I just recently started playing and am absolutely loving it. Again, I sincerely appreciate the help.
Another good multiclass option for assassin is Gloomstalker ranger. Hunter's mark does same bonus damage as hex. Dread ambushed gives a bonus to initiative (which is important to assassin), gives an extra attack on turn 1 of combat, that bonus attack does bonus damage, and gives you extra movement on turn 1 of combat. Umbral sight gives darkvision and makes you invisible to creatures with darkvision. You can also get pass without trace to give the whole party a buff to stealth to increase odds of surprise.
Hello, I wanted to give this build https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Talk:Max_Damage_Rogue_Edition_(5e_Optimized_Character_Build) a try. I had a question though. Instead of taking the Magic Initiate feat with my rogue assassin to get hex, wouldn't it be better to do a one level dip into warlock? Seems like this would be pretty much the same except now you can cast hex once per short rest instead of long rest. You do miss out on stroke of luck at level 20, but that seems like a fair trade off. Am I missing something?
Nope, on the face of things I would tend to agree, but there is the slight delay in your rogue abilities (something few consider with multiclass) it also requires you have at least 13 Charisma.
Hexblade would probably be the most useful, allowing you to have both the hexblades curse available and the hex spell, also consider if you are already investing in the charisma stat taking that second level for some eldritch invocations and a second spell slot, beware of going down the multiclass rabbit hole and reaching for that next cool ability though as for a dip one or two levels is probably for the best.
Invocations you might consider.
Armor of Shadows
You can cast mage armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components. Little bit of armor boost
Devil’s Sight
You can see normally in darkness, both magical and nonmagical, to a distance of 120 feet. No darkness can stop this assassin.
Eldritch Sight
You can cast detect magic at will, without expending a spell slot. Helps to know when there is magic about.
Mask of Many Faces
You can cast disguise self at will, without expending a spell slot. Helps to never be recognized.
Misty Visions
You can cast silent image at will, without expending a spell slot or material components. Need a distraction? Nothing quite so distracting as a couple dead bodies lying around, especially if they start moving.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Awesome! Thanks for the help. I truly appreciate it.
Good luck, and have fun, make some awesome roleplaying from it all.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Honestly there are good tradeoffs at multiple levels. With the level 1 dip, you give up Stroke of Luck for hex and hexblade's curse (or whatever patron you go for). Both rub up against using bonus action for cunning action or an off hand attack. Not a horrible trade off but Stroke of Luck does help a lot with that opening round auto critical sneak attack. Missing that opening around is awful. If you're taking one level, looking at a larger dip is worth considering. A 2 level dip gives you some Eldritch invocations as HeroZero mentioned. So far this costs you a sneak attack di, an ASI, and stroke of luck. I feel like you're giving up a lot for a 2 level dip. However, if you are interested in a 2 level dip, you can take one more level in Warlock and only give up elusive from Rogue. A dip this far gives you level 2 spells and a pact boon. A few spells of note here are Invisibility,Shadow Blade,Hold Person, and you can also smite for added damage on that opening nova round. Any further and you'd want to take a lot of levels for the tradeoffs to be worth it. I think the 3 level dip is probably the way I'd go. Going 4 would gain you an ASI at the cost of your marquee level 17 assassin ability, Death Strike, and another sneak attack di. I would avoid that unless you're looking to take a much larger dip into warlock, likely at least to 7. That would get you level 4 spells for Shadow of Moil, or perhaps Greater Invisibility (if you went for Archfey). You'd also get a second attack at level 5. That would really only cost you a few sneak attack dice from a level 3 dip.
I actually forgot at three would give the level two spells (not super important for hex) but as you mentioned there are some other interesting possibilities.
Then it comes to what do you take for your Pact Boon be. My first thought is Tome for some extra cantrip options with the extra thought of the invocation for Book of Ancient Secrets for Ritual spells to cast out of combat. This would add a lot of flexibility (and some interesting cantrips) to the build. Commune with the gods to see if your next assassination will have a good outcome type thing.
Next thought was Pact of the chain, because having a familiar that can go invisible and help with scouting could be quite handy to an assassin. Also a viable option for creating distractions regardless of which familiar is chosen. Secondary possibilities around Gift of the Ever Living Ones giving you more potent healing on yourself as the assassin that just doesn't die, or the Voice of the Chain Master for some super cool RP ideas revolving around you using the familiar in interesting situations.
Initially I thought Pact of the Blade would be just worthless but it could still be an interesting thing for an assassin. For an example, using the Mage Armor invocation and the Pact of the Blade you could walk into a room with no weapons or armor visible and then if things go south you conjure up your armor and a blade magically appears in your hand. This could still be done with something like Shadow Blade as well but it is still a cool idea to me. Also would allow you to take the Improved Pact Weapon and make it appear as a bow or crossbow which would be a perfect assassin tool.
For reference of the invocations mentioned.
Book of Ancient Secrets
Prerequisite: Pact of the Tome feature
You can now inscribe magical rituals in your Book of Shadows. Choose two 1st-level spells that have the ritual tag from any class’s spell list (the two needn’t be from the same list). The spells appear in the book and don’t count against the number of spells you know. With your Book of Shadows in hand, you can cast the chosen spells as rituals. You can’t cast the spells except as rituals, unless you’ve learned them by some other means. You can also cast a warlock spell you know as a ritual if it has the ritual tag.
On your adventures, you can add other ritual spells to your Book of Shadows. When you find such a spell, you can add it to the book if the spell’s level is equal to or less than half your warlock level (rounded up) and if you can spare the time to transcribe the spell. For each level of the spell, the transcription process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp for the rare inks needed to inscribe it.
Gift of the Ever-Living Ones
Prerequisite: Pact of the Chain feature
Whenever you regain hit points while your familiar is within 100 feet of you, treat any dice rolled to determine the hit points you regain as having rolled their maximum value for you.
Improved Pact Weapon
Prerequisite: Pact of the Blade feature
You can use any weapon you summon with your Pact of the Blade feature as a spellcasting focus for your warlock spells.
In addition, the weapon gains a +1 bonus to its attack and damage rolls, unless it is a magic weapon that already has a bonus to those rolls.
Finally, the weapon you conjure can be a shortbow, longbow, light crossbow, or heavy crossbow.
Voice of the Chain Master
Prerequisite: Pact of the Chain feature
You can communicate telepathically with your familiar and perceive through your familiar’s senses as long as you are on the same plane of existence. Additionally, while perceiving through your familiar’s senses, you can also speak through your familiar in your own voice, even if your familiar is normally incapable of speech.
"Where words fail, swords prevail. Where blood is spilled, my cup is filled" -Cartaphilus
"I have found the answer to the meaning of life. You ask me what the answer is? You already know what the answer to life is. You fear it more than the strike of a viper, the ravages of disease, the ire of a lover. The answer is always death. But death is a gentle mistress with a sweet embrace, and you owe her a debt of restitution. Life is not a gift, it is a loan."
Wow, thanks again. Some interesting options mentioned here. I was resolved to only a two level dip, but now I'm not so sure. Lol. I will definitely play with the other suggestions in the builder tool to see what looks like the most fun. Thank you both for taking the time to help me out. I just recently started playing and am absolutely loving it. Again, I sincerely appreciate the help.
Another good multiclass option for assassin is Gloomstalker ranger. Hunter's mark does same bonus damage as hex. Dread ambushed gives a bonus to initiative (which is important to assassin), gives an extra attack on turn 1 of combat, that bonus attack does bonus damage, and gives you extra movement on turn 1 of combat. Umbral sight gives darkvision and makes you invisible to creatures with darkvision. You can also get pass without trace to give the whole party a buff to stealth to increase odds of surprise.
Thank you! I will take a look at that as well.