Hi all! So for the first time in my life, I'll be taking a character on a longer campaign and see them through their long-term levelling-up. Said character is currently a level 3, 10/17/14/14/13/14 Arcane Trickster in a party of 4, that includes a Barbarian, a Fighter and a Cleric. I have the highest charisma score and therefore am the face. Also, frontline roles are clearly filled.
So I was considering what my options were for a supporting build, and I got curious about what a shadow sorcerer could do. After reaching level 10, at which point I'll have maxed my DEX and acquired War Caster, I could splash 5 levels. Upsides A - Font of magic, subtle spell, twinned spell and a lot more spells and spell slots. Subtle spell for being a face, twinned spell for being a buff caster. Font of magic will allow me to create sorcery points from the higher spell slots I have available, or I can upcast debuffs. This will also widen my spell selection allowing me to pick lots of level 3 spells that wouldn't all be accessible at once in normal times (Fireball, Haste, Fly, Counterspell) B - 4 more cantrips, for a total of 8. I can now take Green-Flame Blade, Prestidigitation, Mending, Message or whatever I haven't picked yet now. C - Once I've had my first round of combat as a support character, I can now sneak attack everyone from the backlines and dish out ridiculous damage without using other spell slots. D - I can cast darkness and still see through it, giving me advantage AND sneak attack. If I take crossbow expert and sharpshooter, my damage output is gonna get ridiculous.
Downsides A - Whether I pick dual wielder or crossbow expert/sharpshooter, the attack feats will come online pretty late. B - Obviously, I would miss out on the last five levels of Rogue. Nothing in there that I'm too sad about, though. C - Less sneak attack damage, when I land it. D - Playing the face with Cha capped at 16. E - Sub-optimal spell DC - capped at 17 - unless I come across a headband of intellect.
I guess the questions here are: - Are these investments worth it? - Apart from infiltration skills, am I getting away from what makes rogues good in combat?
Just a thought - why go all the way to lv 10 in arcane trickster? Arcane Trickster 3 / Shadow Sorcerer 17 would be a lv 18 caster, and almost as good at skills/traps/locks as any rogue (under level 11) and you basically lose out on sneak attack, which becomes a lot less relevant... That is if support and casting matters a lot.
The other option i would mention is bard. Jack of all trades makes you really good at everything skill related. bardic inspiration is a good bonus action if you don't need it for something else. Bards have access to healing spells and song of rest is very helpful to healers. Depending on your subclass you could get a second attack, or with lore bard spells from another class, whisper gives you sneak attack-ish damage.
Magical darkness is good, but nobody else on your team gets any advantage for you using it. Also it turns off the light spell, which can be very bad for players without darkvision. I like the bard and sorcerer combination just remember you can retrain lower level spells for higher level ones when you gain levels in sorcerer.
Yea, if you want to use a weapon a bard could be a good choice as you could get secondary attack and full progression. In that case you need to use a magic secret to get counterspell though - your party will absolutely need tou to have it :)
Hey all! I'm a bit all over the place at the moment, as I'm checking potentiel avenues for MCing into wizards, bards, rangers, sorcerers and fighters...
Just wanted to say I appreciate you taking the time to answer with very useful advice, and I'm checking the options you're recommanding. Thanks again!
I would begin finding a concept, and then make a good build for it. Ranger or melee, strong caster or just a slight magic suplement. It is a lot easier to contribute once the concept is somewhat finalized :)
I completely agree. I think it's because we started the campaign without really considering the party composition, and now we're going for 3 melee fighters out of 4 characters. In order to fix that, I've been trying to figure out ways to fill more roles than I should ; sounds like a bard's job, doesn't it?
Well yes, but the game can be made to suit the group too. A all-rogue party van be fun if tailored for it. This is why I think it is mpre important to make a concept you like than what suits the group. The gm can fix that part :)
also, your group has a cleric so you have a full caster. What you lack the most the way I see it is defence vs heavy magic. That means counterspell more than anything else. But from where tour character is, bard could certainly be a good fit. For example a valorbard for ranged or a bladebard for melee. If you wanna go full support you could also go lorebard. Two extra spells will help a lot in beeing the «fake wizard»
counter spell is a great spell but you are at least 5 levels from getting it. Wizard is what i would go for personally. I personally like the abjuration wizard as it gives you with the ward health about equal to that of a pure rogue. Divination's portent is silly OP, especially with your lower save DC.
I have a Rogue 2 that I plan on going with both AT and a few levels of Shadow Sorc to go with my backstory. I left some major plot holes open for my DM to exploit, but my character has an unknown entity pursuing him and haunting his dreams.
And the best part is I get to be surprised how my own story turns out! 😎
you are close to one of the most powerfull think in game, wich is :
TWIN BOOMING BLADE
With Sorcerer metamagic twinned spell, you can cast two spell that target one creature using 1 sorcery point. That mean that with one sorcery point, you can use booming blade twice in a round. So, no need to double wielde. ( this as been confirm legal). This is going to allow you tu use cunning action more often, wich is a very important feature for rogue. So with this, you can attack 2 foes ( twinned booming blade) ans use disengage ( cunning action) to get away, forcing ennemies to come for you and activate booming blade.
Booming blade power depend of your overall level, so even if you mulsticlass, it still become stonger. The damage from booming blade are 1d8 at level 5, 2d8 at level 11 and 3d8 at 17. So booming blade will compensate for the dice you will lose with sbeak attack. And if your opponent move after the attack, they will take 1d8 for level 1 to 4, 2d8 at 5, 3d8 at 11 and 4d8 at 17.
Look at this, this is MASSIVE DAMAGE POSSIBILITY. Since you are not usinf two weapon fighting, you can use a rapier instead of short sword, increasing your damagae from 1d6 to 1d8 per attack. And booming blade attack are add to all your attack instead of once per round like sneak attack.
So the damage output from a rogue/sorcerer using booming blade will be greater than regular rogue with full sneak attack. For example, a level 11 rogue using two weapon fighting, will do 1d6 ( short sword) + dex per attack + 6d6 sneak once a turn. Sorcerer/rogue will do 1d8 ( rapier) +2d8 sonic attack + dex per attack and 4d6 sneak once a turn with the possibility to add 3d8 sonic atatck per opponent if they move and still having a bonus action to do a cunning action and disangage ( and forcing opponent to move activate booming blade).
You can even make a THIRD booming blade attack with quicken spell metamagic that allow you to cast a spell that require one action with a bonus action. But with this, it cost you 3 sorcery point per round to have 3 attack, this is becoming costly. Better use twin spell more often than twin spell + quicken spell for juts couple of round.
With a feat like mobility and skulker, you can hide in the dark, twined spell two opponent, back away without aoo because of mobility and use cunning action to make a hide in dark ( using sulker.)
you are close to one of the most powerfull think in game, wich is :
TWIN BOOMING BLADE
If you think twinning a cantrip is one of the most powerful things in the game, you haven't looked at high level spells for full casters.
Wish is one of the most powerful things in the game. True Polymorph is one of the most powerful things in the game. Divine Intervention is one of the most powerful things in the game. Twinning Booming Blade is not.
I mean even the twin BB + quicken BB with mobile feat to get away... Is still something Sorcs can do anyway. And as shadow sorc you can Hound of Ill Omen, Hold Person/Monster (disadvantage to save - thanks to hound) and then wail on them with the three auto-crit BBs at advantage. The hound itself also attacking the held target too. This is easier and more sustainable as a full sorc than a mix because you get more spell slots and more sorc points to accomplish. Sure they won't have prof in rapier. Oh, but there are races that start with prof in some martial weapons and feats that let you pick whatever few weapons you want to become prof in.
Sorcs are best only with slight dips into other classes rather than big mixes. Rogue works better with less mixing - because they genuinely have useful end-level features and it keeps the sneak attack progress high enough to be worth it against the later enemies. Rogue/Sorc mixes are a bit .. clumsy and you can easily nerf yourself if not done right.
I mean even the twin BB + quicken BB with mobile feat to get away... Is still something Sorcs can do anyway. And as shadow sorc you can Hound of Ill Omen, Hold Person/Monster (disadvantage to save - thanks to hound) and then wail on them with the three auto-crit BBs at advantage. The hound itself also attacking the held target too. This is easier and more sustainable as a full sorc than a mix because you get more spell slots and more sorc points to accomplish. Sure they won't have prof in rapier. Oh, but there are races that start with prof in some martial weapons and feats that let you pick whatever few weapons you want to become prof in.
Sorcs are best only with slight dips into other classes rather than big mixes. Rogue works better with less mixing - because they genuinely have useful end-level features and it keeps the sneak attack progress high enough to be worth it against the later enemies. Rogue/Sorc mixes are a bit .. clumsy and you can easily nerf yourself if not done right.
The caracter is a third level trickster. Telling him to go full sorcerer is no help at all.
you are close to one of the most powerfull think in game, wich is :
TWIN BOOMING BLADE
If you think twinning a cantrip is one of the most powerful things in the game, you haven't looked at high level spells for full casters.
Wish is one of the most powerful things in the game. True Polymorph is one of the most powerful things in the game. Divine Intervention is one of the most powerful things in the game. Twinning Booming Blade is not.
My bad, i mean that twin booming blade is one of the more powerfull think for a arcan trickster.
Hi all! So for the first time in my life, I'll be taking a character on a longer campaign and see them through their long-term levelling-up.
Said character is currently a level 3, 10/17/14/14/13/14 Arcane Trickster in a party of 4, that includes a Barbarian, a Fighter and a Cleric. I have the highest charisma score and therefore am the face. Also, frontline roles are clearly filled.
So I was considering what my options were for a supporting build, and I got curious about what a shadow sorcerer could do. After reaching level 10, at which point I'll have maxed my DEX and acquired War Caster, I could splash 5 levels.
Upsides
A - Font of magic, subtle spell, twinned spell and a lot more spells and spell slots. Subtle spell for being a face, twinned spell for being a buff caster. Font of magic will allow me to create sorcery points from the higher spell slots I have available, or I can upcast debuffs. This will also widen my spell selection allowing me to pick lots of level 3 spells that wouldn't all be accessible at once in normal times (Fireball, Haste, Fly, Counterspell)
B - 4 more cantrips, for a total of 8. I can now take Green-Flame Blade, Prestidigitation, Mending, Message or whatever I haven't picked yet now.
C - Once I've had my first round of combat as a support character, I can now sneak attack everyone from the backlines and dish out ridiculous damage without using other spell slots.
D - I can cast darkness and still see through it, giving me advantage AND sneak attack. If I take crossbow expert and sharpshooter, my damage output is gonna get ridiculous.
Downsides
A - Whether I pick dual wielder or crossbow expert/sharpshooter, the attack feats will come online pretty late.
B - Obviously, I would miss out on the last five levels of Rogue. Nothing in there that I'm too sad about, though.
C - Less sneak attack damage, when I land it.
D - Playing the face with Cha capped at 16.
E - Sub-optimal spell DC - capped at 17 - unless I come across a headband of intellect.
I guess the questions here are:
- Are these investments worth it?
- Apart from infiltration skills, am I getting away from what makes rogues good in combat?
So, what are your thoughts?
Just a thought - why go all the way to lv 10 in arcane trickster? Arcane Trickster 3 / Shadow Sorcerer 17 would be a lv 18 caster, and almost as good at skills/traps/locks as any rogue (under level 11) and you basically lose out on sneak attack, which becomes a lot less relevant... That is if support and casting matters a lot.
The other option i would mention is bard. Jack of all trades makes you really good at everything skill related. bardic inspiration is a good bonus action if you don't need it for something else. Bards have access to healing spells and song of rest is very helpful to healers. Depending on your subclass you could get a second attack, or with lore bard spells from another class, whisper gives you sneak attack-ish damage.
Magical darkness is good, but nobody else on your team gets any advantage for you using it. Also it turns off the light spell, which can be very bad for players without darkvision. I like the bard and sorcerer combination just remember you can retrain lower level spells for higher level ones when you gain levels in sorcerer.
Yea, if you want to use a weapon a bard could be a good choice as you could get secondary attack and full progression. In that case you need to use a magic secret to get counterspell though - your party will absolutely need tou to have it :)
Hey all! I'm a bit all over the place at the moment, as I'm checking potentiel avenues for MCing into wizards, bards, rangers, sorcerers and fighters...
Just wanted to say I appreciate you taking the time to answer with very useful advice, and I'm checking the options you're recommanding. Thanks again!
I would begin finding a concept, and then make a good build for it. Ranger or melee, strong caster or just a slight magic suplement. It is a lot easier to contribute once the concept is somewhat finalized :)
I completely agree. I think it's because we started the campaign without really considering the party composition, and now we're going for 3 melee fighters out of 4 characters. In order to fix that, I've been trying to figure out ways to fill more roles than I should ; sounds like a bard's job, doesn't it?
Well yes, but the game can be made to suit the group too. A all-rogue party van be fun if tailored for it. This is why I think it is mpre important to make a concept you like than what suits the group. The gm can fix that part :)
also, your group has a cleric so you have a full caster. What you lack the most the way I see it is defence vs heavy magic. That means counterspell more than anything else. But from where tour character is, bard could certainly be a good fit. For example a valorbard for ranged or a bladebard for melee. If you wanna go full support you could also go lorebard. Two extra spells will help a lot in beeing the «fake wizard»
If you're the party face and the party scout, reliable talent at level 11 is quite useful.
counter spell is a great spell but you are at least 5 levels from getting it. Wizard is what i would go for personally. I personally like the abjuration wizard as it gives you with the ward health about equal to that of a pure rogue. Divination's portent is silly OP, especially with your lower save DC.
I have a Rogue 2 that I plan on going with both AT and a few levels of Shadow Sorc to go with my backstory. I left some major plot holes open for my DM to exploit, but my character has an unknown entity pursuing him and haunting his dreams.
And the best part is I get to be surprised how my own story turns out! 😎
you are close to one of the most powerfull think in game, wich is :
TWIN BOOMING BLADE
With Sorcerer metamagic twinned spell, you can cast two spell that target one creature using 1 sorcery point. That mean that with one sorcery point, you can use booming blade twice in a round. So, no need to double wielde. ( this as been confirm legal). This is going to allow you tu use cunning action more often, wich is a very important feature for rogue. So with this, you can attack 2 foes ( twinned booming blade) ans use disengage ( cunning action) to get away, forcing ennemies to come for you and activate booming blade.
Booming blade power depend of your overall level, so even if you mulsticlass, it still become stonger. The damage from booming blade are 1d8 at level 5, 2d8 at level 11 and 3d8 at 17. So booming blade will compensate for the dice you will lose with sbeak attack. And if your opponent move after the attack, they will take 1d8 for level 1 to 4, 2d8 at 5, 3d8 at 11 and 4d8 at 17.
Look at this, this is MASSIVE DAMAGE POSSIBILITY. Since you are not usinf two weapon fighting, you can use a rapier instead of short sword, increasing your damagae from 1d6 to 1d8 per attack. And booming blade attack are add to all your attack instead of once per round like sneak attack.
So the damage output from a rogue/sorcerer using booming blade will be greater than regular rogue with full sneak attack. For example, a level 11 rogue using two weapon fighting, will do 1d6 ( short sword) + dex per attack + 6d6 sneak once a turn. Sorcerer/rogue will do 1d8 ( rapier) +2d8 sonic attack + dex per attack and 4d6 sneak once a turn with the possibility to add 3d8 sonic atatck per opponent if they move and still having a bonus action to do a cunning action and disangage ( and forcing opponent to move activate booming blade).
You can even make a THIRD booming blade attack with quicken spell metamagic that allow you to cast a spell that require one action with a bonus action. But with this, it cost you 3 sorcery point per round to have 3 attack, this is becoming costly. Better use twin spell more often than twin spell + quicken spell for juts couple of round.
With a feat like mobility and skulker, you can hide in the dark, twined spell two opponent, back away without aoo because of mobility and use cunning action to make a hide in dark ( using sulker.)
If you think twinning a cantrip is one of the most powerful things in the game, you haven't looked at high level spells for full casters.
Wish is one of the most powerful things in the game. True Polymorph is one of the most powerful things in the game. Divine Intervention is one of the most powerful things in the game. Twinning Booming Blade is not.
Yeah twinned BB is decent.
Rather go full sorc and twin Disintegrate.
I mean even the twin BB + quicken BB with mobile feat to get away... Is still something Sorcs can do anyway. And as shadow sorc you can Hound of Ill Omen, Hold Person/Monster (disadvantage to save - thanks to hound) and then wail on them with the three auto-crit BBs at advantage. The hound itself also attacking the held target too. This is easier and more sustainable as a full sorc than a mix because you get more spell slots and more sorc points to accomplish. Sure they won't have prof in rapier. Oh, but there are races that start with prof in some martial weapons and feats that let you pick whatever few weapons you want to become prof in.
Sorcs are best only with slight dips into other classes rather than big mixes. Rogue works better with less mixing - because they genuinely have useful end-level features and it keeps the sneak attack progress high enough to be worth it against the later enemies. Rogue/Sorc mixes are a bit .. clumsy and you can easily nerf yourself if not done right.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
The caracter is a third level trickster. Telling him to go full sorcerer is no help at all.
My bad, i mean that twin booming blade is one of the more powerfull think for a arcan trickster.
Develop a handful of really different character then you can give your party a chance to help decide.
try… nailed to a jobs board in town are several “looking for work” notices describing the following characters…
or… your party walks into a bar and see’s the following… all looking for adventure. Which do you pick…
I love creating a character but there’s no sense trying to squeeze the wrong one into a campaign where they don’t fit