I'm wondering at what level a sorcerer should drop Magic Missile? While it doesn't do incredible multi/single target damage compared to Scorching Ray, it is an auto-hit which is incredibly useful against higher AC monsters. However, from what I understand, in 5e AC doesn't scale as well as hit bonuses at higher levels. So, I'm asking if anyone who's been playing a lot of 5th ed has noticed a general level at which they find Magic Missile to be less used.
I found that as early as level 6, I was using it less and less. I found that a humble Firebolt was good enough most rounds, and when the monster was resistant/immune to fire (gold draconic sorcerer here), I was better off buffing my allies anyway. Magic Missile is good to keep around for the auto-hit and force damage, but I would probably drop it by level 7, maybe 9 at the latest. You could easily justify dropping it as early as level 5 when your cantrips power up and level three spells kick in.
Magic Missile can be a decent utility tool once its combat effectiveness drops off. Being able to guarantee a hit on something weak like rope or other non-magical items means you have options if need be.
That said, it didn't happen often, so keeping it around for that reason alone probably wouldn't be enough.
Mathematically, MM is one of the best single target spells in the game. Average damage is 3.5x3 for a first level spell slot, with an added 3.5 per slot after. 10.5, 14, 17.5, 21 average damage.
Fireball (level 3 spell, where everyone else is telling you to drop this) against a single target is 28 damage at a 3rd level, but assuming it only does half damage half the time (from saves) it actually averages 21. Average difference between the 2 spells (against a single target mind you) is only 3.5 damage.
If you're playing a sorcerer as a glass cannon/blaster type, MM is a good tool to have in your kit. Sometimes you just absolutely, positively HAVE to hit something, and MM is one of the few things that offers that (in b4 "shield!!!"). Also, not a ton of force immunity/resistance out there.
Just my 2 copper
EDIT: Scorching ray is 21 average damage at level 2, but requires 3 attack rolls. It scales better than the 2 other spells mentioned (+7 dmg per added level spell slot) but that's because that scaling adds even more evil d20s to the mix. I am not a fan of scorching ray personally
However, from what I understand, in 5e AC doesn't scale as well as hit bonuses at higher levels.
This isn't quite true. PCs usually start around +5 attack and end at +11 (barring things like Archery Fighting Style). Average monster AC starts at around 13 at CR 1 and goes up to 19 at CR 20. That's a difference of 6 points too. The balance can be tipped with magic items.
However, you can encounter monsters with AC as high as 20 (the highest you'll see below CR 21) as low as CR 4, and there's AC 18 monsters as low as CR 1/2. It takes +7 to hit just to have a 50% hit chance against AC 18.
Note that monsters with extremely high AC usually either wear heavy armor or are big and slow; either way they usually have bad DEX saves. So if you'd like to trade out Magic Missile, you should make sure you have a good DEX save spell as a fallback. Catapult is an excellent alternative. It doesn't require sight (very rare, and very useful when enemies hide in darkness or become invisible) and has extremely long range. While it does no damage on a failed save, the spell keeps going if it misses, so when there's multiple enemies you can line up at least two of them and give yourself 2+ chances to succeed.
Tidal Wave is another higher-level alternative. It's not as damaging as Fireball or Lighting Bolt, but it can knock prone and deals bludgeoning damage, making it an easy pick against groups of enemies that resist the "energy" types (fire/cold/lightning/acid/thunder).
Dragon's Breath requires concentration but you can get a lot of damage out of it over the course of the fight. It's especially nice for Draconic Sorcerers since they're sturdier and have Elemental Affinity.
Magic Missile can be a decent utility tool once its combat effectiveness drops off. Being able to guarantee a hit on something weak like rope or other non-magical items means you have options if need be.
That said, it didn't happen often, so keeping it around for that reason alone probably wouldn't be enough.
This may not be possible as the wording for magic missile specifies that "Each dart hits a creature of your choice". So you can only target creatures not ropes or other objects. I'd discuss it with your DM before holding onto it for that reason.
I mean at some point your action deserves more oopmh to help your team? Big boss high CR, you actually going to shoot magic missle instead of banishing a big threat or AOE burning mobs around your team that are focusing the boss? It's value drops a lot the tougher the fights.
It's a great little starter spell or if you are the only range on your team and need to drop those archers, witches on brooms that are peppering the field. Early level only. Depends on builds and team but really shield is the only one that holds it's way to high levels. drop missile between 6-10.
Magic Missile can be a decent utility tool once its combat effectiveness drops off. Being able to guarantee a hit on something weak like rope or other non-magical items means you have options if need be.
you can only target creatures afaik and ropes or non-magical items are not creatures
Magic Missile can be a decent utility tool once its combat effectiveness drops off. Being able to guarantee a hit on something weak like rope or other non-magical items means you have options if need be.
you can only target creatures afaik and ropes or non-magical items are not creatures
I think this point, which has now been brought up twice, is a RAW vs RAI thing.
RAW, you can't target objects with this spell. I also don't know what it is from a flavor standpoint that would prohibit you from hitting an unattended object. There mental gymnastics required to justify a strict RAW interpretation of the rules as far as what happens in the actual game seem like something many DM's might not want to do.
Personally, I would allow an MM to hit unerringly on any unattended object. Add an Arcana check or something for an object being held by another player if you're trying to break it or knock it out of their hands. But that doesn't seem like it's outside of the idea of the spell (magical force darts flung from your hands). But check with your DM. Maybe he hates fun/cool ideas.
RAW, you can't target objects with this spell. I also don't know what it is from a flavor standpoint that would prohibit you from hitting an unattended object. There mental gymnastics required to justify a strict RAW interpretation of the rules as far as what happens in the actual game seem like something many DM's might not want to do.
Force damage isn't a literal force in the physics sense, it's "pure magical energy focused into a damaging form." Total cover blocks spell targeting and area spells, so I don't see why it's hard to accept that a spell like magic missile would be useless against objects.
RAW, you can't target objects with this spell. I also don't know what it is from a flavor standpoint that would prohibit you from hitting an unattended object. There mental gymnastics required to justify a strict RAW interpretation of the rules as far as what happens in the actual game seem like something many DM's might not want to do.
Force damage isn't a literal force in the physics sense, it's "pure magical energy focused into a damaging form." Total cover blocks spell targeting and area spells, so I don't see why it's hard to accept that a spell like magic missile would be useless against objects.
Also me:
But check with your DM. Maybe he hates fun/cool ideas.
I don't think targeting a stalagmite with MM to drop it on your enemies is breaking the game. I would, in fact, argue that it's cool and fun and creative and the sort of thing I want to allow players to do in order to keep our GAME enjoyable. The damage type is force, and if a player was going to use it to create an impact against an object, that makes a lot of sense to me. It's just not RAW.
Crawford rulings are great for providing understanding what the game creators were thinking. I also generally fall on them when there's a conflict between player/DM to help make sure nobody's feelings are hurt. That said, no rule in the game beats the rule of fun or the rule of cool. And, I always state "talk with your DM about table/house rulings." I would allow it. Crawford wouldn't. Maybe his game is super fun and everyone has a great time. Maybe you wouldn't if you played at that table. YMMV, every table is different, etc etc etc.
Also, how the hell does this line from Eldritch Blast not contradict that sentence "A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range?" So a beam of crackling energy is fired, but I'm not firing a projectile? Cool story bro, makes total sense. I'm just using force against their life force. Makes total sense. Why does necrotic energy exist again? *rolls his eyes so hard they're stuck and he goes blind*
The damage type is force, and if a player was going to use it to create an impact against an object, that makes a lot of sense to me.
Yeah, that makes sense if you disregard the definition of force damage given by the game and assume it means "some sort of applied physical force", which is exactly what bludgeoning (force over a large area) and piercing damage (force applied at a point) already are.
Also, how the hell does this line from Eldritch Blast not contradict that sentence "A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range?" So a beam of crackling energy is fired, but I'm not firing a projectile? Cool story bro, makes total sense.
A projectile is usually defined as a missile or object that's fired at high speeds. A beam of energy (e.g. a really powerful laser) generally isn't considered a projectile, even if it's harmful. It might be a pedantic way of saying it but he's saying you're not shooting a physical object with mass and momentum. It's more like you're microwaving them. Or, if you're a Harry Potter fan, casting Avada Kedavra.
The damage type is force, and if a player was going to use it to create an impact against an object, that makes a lot of sense to me.
Yeah, that makes sense if you disregard the definition of force damage given by the game and assume it means "some sort of applied physical force", which is exactly what bludgeoning (force over a large area) and piercing damage (force applied at a point) already are.
Also, how the hell does this line from Eldritch Blast not contradict that sentence "A beam of crackling energy streaks toward a creature within range?" So a beam of crackling energy is fired, but I'm not firing a projectile? Cool story bro, makes total sense.
A projectile is usually defined as a missile or object that's fired at high speeds. A beam of energy (e.g. a really powerful laser) generally isn't considered a projectile, even if it's harmful. It might be a pedantic way of saying it but he's saying you're not shooting a physical object with mass and momentum. It's more like you're microwaving them.
I understand that it's not like any of the 'physical' damage types. "Force (damage) is pure magical energy focused into a damaging form." By its definition it has literally no real world physical equivalent. It's just "magic damage". I'm not misunderstanding what Force means. It's specifically vague and steps on the toes of several other damage types because it's a way to hand-wave game mechanics/allow for different game interactions. Why isn't it "magical" damage? Why don't all magical spells also do some kind of force damage? With the Crawford "explaination" of how you're directly attacking the lifeforce of a creature, why isn't it necrotic damage? With that said, I don't think a deep dive into the philosophy of damage type assignment is really the heart of this discussion.
My overall point here is that there is an easy "misunderstanding" of the rules that a player could make that would allow them to interpret the game mechanics the way I am (that Force damage is...like...actually Force). I typically try to allow players MORE freedom than LESS if it allows everyone to have fun. I am also a reformed rules lawyer, so I like to think I know all the cheap RAW BS that can be pulled. Sometimes it's more fun with a literal reading of the rules. Other times it's more fun to throw the rules in the garbage. There are many other DM's who run their games in a similar manner. It's worth investing some time to see how strict your DM is with RAW before starting a game because you might be able to do more cool/fun things.
I'm not moving from this basic formula: Can objects take damage? Yup. Is this object immune to damage/magic? Nope. Would it be cool/fun for our current story if you were able to do the thing you want to do? Hell yes? Go ahead and MM bro!
"But check with your DM. Maybe he hates fun/cool ideas"
Autohitting 3+ objects, that also have no size limitation thus could be extremely tiny, sounds pretty op to me for a first level spell with a range of 120 feet.
but hey you do you but don't say that "we" are the baddies for playing by the rules.
Edit: also you can't hand out build tips to players on the internet without mentioning that it takes homebrewing rules to work.
"But check with your DM. Maybe he hates fun/cool ideas"
Autohitting 3+ objects, that also have no size limitation thus could be extremely tiny, sounds pretty op to me for a first level spell with a range of 120 feet. Could be. Could not be. Who cares? Fireball as written is OP. Healing spirit as written is OP. If you have a player who solves every problem by "magic missile X (where X is not a creature)" and it's getting boring, counter it with something or talk to them about it. Opening pandora's box is fun. Slamming the lid shut with someone's hand in it can also be fun. Games are about drama, and if find the best drama involves inverting expectations/putting someone up against adversity.
but hey you do you but don't say that "we" are the baddies for playing by the rules. Sure I can. Rule of fun is the only rule. Everything else is guidelines to create a common understanding of how things work in the world. I think your choice of playing by the rules is unfun, or bad in this instance.
Edit: also you can't hand out build tips to players on the internet without mentioning that it takes homebrewing rules to work. I agree. Good thing I never did.
I've got a non-optimized wizard, focused on buff/blasting but with low int and high con/dex for his level. Magic missile is the most consistent way to do ~10 damage to any enemy for a first level slot. My cantrips are more utility oriented but I see how firebolt can outpace MM.
Edit: I Searched magic missile, I didn't realize this was sorcerer forum. I still think MM is good until a point. Any reason MM may be worse for a sorcerer than for a wizard? I know twinned spell doesn't work.
Magic Missile could be worse on a Sorcerer for a few reasons. First, if you're doing damage, it doesn't have great synergy with Empowered Spell (only d4) or any synergy with the Draconic damage bonus. Second and maybe more importantly, Sorcerers are so restricted on spells known that every spell on their list has to carry its weight - they don't have a lot of room for spells with niche uses, whereas that's kind of the wizard's schtick. At higher levels, Magic Missile becomes a little more niche, as several posts on this thread go into.
I ended up with just utility spells in my 1st level slots. With your limited selection I don't see that you would want to favor Magic Missile over Shield or Absorb Elements. The small advantage Magic Missile has over a cantrip like Fire Bolt or a spell like Scorching Ray doesn't really make it worthwhile.
Also consider utility. A Disintegrate spell specifically says it affects objects AND this spell is an effective counter for spells like Forcecage. As a sorcerer you will want to consider multiple uses for each spell you select.
If your DM let's you use homebrew material consider a cantrip as a replacement for Magic Missile. I created the spell Eldritch Dart for just this reason (it's a published homebrew spell). It's really where Magic Missile should've landed IMO.
I'm wondering at what level a sorcerer should drop Magic Missile? While it doesn't do incredible multi/single target damage compared to Scorching Ray, it is an auto-hit which is incredibly useful against higher AC monsters. However, from what I understand, in 5e AC doesn't scale as well as hit bonuses at higher levels. So, I'm asking if anyone who's been playing a lot of 5th ed has noticed a general level at which they find Magic Missile to be less used.
Thanks!
I found that as early as level 6, I was using it less and less. I found that a humble Firebolt was good enough most rounds, and when the monster was resistant/immune to fire (gold draconic sorcerer here), I was better off buffing my allies anyway. Magic Missile is good to keep around for the auto-hit and force damage, but I would probably drop it by level 7, maybe 9 at the latest. You could easily justify dropping it as early as level 5 when your cantrips power up and level three spells kick in.
Magic Missile can be a decent utility tool once its combat effectiveness drops off. Being able to guarantee a hit on something weak like rope or other non-magical items means you have options if need be.
That said, it didn't happen often, so keeping it around for that reason alone probably wouldn't be enough.
Mathematically, MM is one of the best single target spells in the game. Average damage is 3.5x3 for a first level spell slot, with an added 3.5 per slot after. 10.5, 14, 17.5, 21 average damage.
Fireball (level 3 spell, where everyone else is telling you to drop this) against a single target is 28 damage at a 3rd level, but assuming it only does half damage half the time (from saves) it actually averages 21. Average difference between the 2 spells (against a single target mind you) is only 3.5 damage.
If you're playing a sorcerer as a glass cannon/blaster type, MM is a good tool to have in your kit. Sometimes you just absolutely, positively HAVE to hit something, and MM is one of the few things that offers that (in b4 "shield!!!"). Also, not a ton of force immunity/resistance out there.
Just my 2 copper
EDIT: Scorching ray is 21 average damage at level 2, but requires 3 attack rolls. It scales better than the 2 other spells mentioned (+7 dmg per added level spell slot) but that's because that scaling adds even more evil d20s to the mix. I am not a fan of scorching ray personally
I mean at some point your action deserves more oopmh to help your team?
Big boss high CR, you actually going to shoot magic missle instead of banishing a big threat or AOE burning mobs around your team that are focusing the boss?
It's value drops a lot the tougher the fights.
It's a great little starter spell or if you are the only range on your team and need to drop those archers, witches on brooms that are peppering the field. Early level only. Depends on builds and team but really shield is the only one that holds it's way to high levels. drop missile between 6-10.
you can only target creatures afaik and ropes or non-magical items are not creatures
RAW, you can't target objects with this spell. I also don't know what it is from a flavor standpoint that would prohibit you from hitting an unattended object. There mental gymnastics required to justify a strict RAW interpretation of the rules as far as what happens in the actual game seem like something many DM's might not want to do.
Personally, I would allow an MM to hit unerringly on any unattended object. Add an Arcana check or something for an object being held by another player if you're trying to break it or knock it out of their hands. But that doesn't seem like it's outside of the idea of the spell (magical force darts flung from your hands). But check with your DM. Maybe he hates fun/cool ideas.
Crawford rulings are great for providing understanding what the game creators were thinking. I also generally fall on them when there's a conflict between player/DM to help make sure nobody's feelings are hurt. That said, no rule in the game beats the rule of fun or the rule of cool. And, I always state "talk with your DM about table/house rulings." I would allow it. Crawford wouldn't. Maybe his game is super fun and everyone has a great time. Maybe you wouldn't if you played at that table. YMMV, every table is different, etc etc etc.
My overall point here is that there is an easy "misunderstanding" of the rules that a player could make that would allow them to interpret the game mechanics the way I am (that Force damage is...like...actually Force). I typically try to allow players MORE freedom than LESS if it allows everyone to have fun. I am also a reformed rules lawyer, so I like to think I know all the cheap RAW BS that can be pulled. Sometimes it's more fun with a literal reading of the rules. Other times it's more fun to throw the rules in the garbage. There are many other DM's who run their games in a similar manner. It's worth investing some time to see how strict your DM is with RAW before starting a game because you might be able to do more cool/fun things.
I'm not moving from this basic formula: Can objects take damage? Yup. Is this object immune to damage/magic? Nope. Would it be cool/fun for our current story if you were able to do the thing you want to do? Hell yes? Go ahead and MM bro!
"But check with your DM. Maybe he hates fun/cool ideas"
Autohitting 3+ objects, that also have no size limitation thus could be extremely tiny, sounds pretty op to me for a first level spell with a range of 120 feet.
but hey you do you but don't say that "we" are the baddies for playing by the rules.
Edit: also you can't hand out build tips to players on the internet without mentioning that it takes homebrewing rules to work.
The average damage for a d4 is actually 2.5, so it's only dealing 2.5x3 damage on average.
Magic Missile it's D4+1/dart x3 darts on the base spell.
I've got a non-optimized wizard, focused on buff/blasting but with low int and high con/dex for his level. Magic missile is the most consistent way to do ~10 damage to any enemy for a first level slot. My cantrips are more utility oriented but I see how firebolt can outpace MM.
Edit: I Searched magic missile, I didn't realize this was sorcerer forum. I still think MM is good until a point. Any reason MM may be worse for a sorcerer than for a wizard? I know twinned spell doesn't work.
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Magic Missile could be worse on a Sorcerer for a few reasons. First, if you're doing damage, it doesn't have great synergy with Empowered Spell (only d4) or any synergy with the Draconic damage bonus. Second and maybe more importantly, Sorcerers are so restricted on spells known that every spell on their list has to carry its weight - they don't have a lot of room for spells with niche uses, whereas that's kind of the wizard's schtick. At higher levels, Magic Missile becomes a little more niche, as several posts on this thread go into.
I started a thread about spell selection a while back. It may be worth taking a look - https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/sorcerer/16073-could-someone-lend-a-hand-with-spell-selection
I ended up with just utility spells in my 1st level slots. With your limited selection I don't see that you would want to favor Magic Missile over Shield or Absorb Elements. The small advantage Magic Missile has over a cantrip like Fire Bolt or a spell like Scorching Ray doesn't really make it worthwhile.
Also consider utility. A Disintegrate spell specifically says it affects objects AND this spell is an effective counter for spells like Forcecage. As a sorcerer you will want to consider multiple uses for each spell you select.
If your DM let's you use homebrew material consider a cantrip as a replacement for Magic Missile. I created the spell Eldritch Dart for just this reason (it's a published homebrew spell). It's really where Magic Missile should've landed IMO.
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