I play a support divine soul as well. What I'm trying to say though is that a Divine Soul can't go full support without giving up it's primary role as a sorcerer turning them into, well, a squishy cleric and if it just goes sorcerer it misses the whole point of it's sub-class. The result being you gotta try and mish-mash two unrelated spell lists together. This wouldn't be an issue if Sorcs prepped spells like other classes. You think you need support for a fight, swap out for support. You think you need damage, swap out for damage. Or even if they had a larger spells known amount (cause then they can realistically fit it all), but as-is you have two roles and spell lists competing for a VERY limited number of slots. Instead of doing one thing 'good' you kinda do both things 'mediocre'. You can't get in the offensive support that a sorcerer might need (stuff like shield/absorb elements or lower-level damage spells) but you also lack the healing and party support that a cleric could bring.
I don't think this would be an issue if they could have just a FEW MORE ****ING SPELLS KNOWN, but the dumb decision to limit them to FREAKING 15 really hobbles the class.
I play a support divine soul as well. What I'm trying to say though is that a Divine Soul can't go full support without giving up it's primary role as a sorcerer turning them into, well, a squishy cleric and if it just goes sorcerer it misses the whole point of it's sub-class. The result being you gotta try and mish-mash two unrelated spell lists together. This wouldn't be an issue if Sorcs prepped spells like other classes. You think you need support for a fight, swap out for support. You think you need damage, swap out for damage. Or even if they had a larger spells known amount (cause then they can realistically fit it all), but as-is you have two roles and spell lists competing for a VERY limited number of slots. Instead of doing one thing 'good' you kinda do both things 'mediocre'. You can't get in the offensive support that a sorcerer might need (stuff like shield/absorb elements or lower-level damage spells) but you also lack the healing and party support that a cleric could bring.
I don't think this would be an issue if they could have just a FEW MORE ****ING SPELLS KNOWN, but the dumb decision to limit them to FREAKING 15 really hobbles the class.
Why would you want to go full support? An 11th level divine sorcerer with twin heal and no other cleric spells is pretty darn powerful and doesn't need any other cleric spells to be able to outheal the cleric all day long.
Also there are more classes that know spells than there are that prepare them.
Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Artificers and Paladins prepare
I think the prepared vs known breakdown works well considering the spell selections available and the class/subclass abilities.
Also Wizards really depends on the campaign. The Wizard has more spells in his book and more prepared than the sorcerer has known, but he can't change them out. So unless the campaign has a lot of spell books, scrolls and downtime, what the Wizard selects at level up are part of his book for life.
Divine Soul can't go full support without giving up it's primary role as a sorcerer
I think that depends on what you consider the "primary role" of a sorcerer. I get the feeling you might mean "blaster", and that's ONE type of sorcerer. I think the base sorcerer class features augment a solely support character just fine, and when you add in things like "Favored by the Gods", it makes it even better. I would say your base assumption that sorcerers across the board have a single "primary role" is off base.
EDIT: I also WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE ABOUT THE SPELLS KNOWN ARGH
Divine Soul can't go full support without giving up it's primary role as a sorcerer
I think that depends on what you consider the "primary role" of a sorcerer. I get the feeling you might mean "blaster", and that's ONE type of sorcerer. I think the base sorcerer class features augment a solely support character just fine, and when you add in things like "Favored by the Gods", it makes it even better. I would say your base assumption that sorcerers across the board have a single "primary role" is off base.
EDIT: I also WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE ABOUT THE SPELLS KNOWN ARGH
I'm actually not referring to blaster. While that is an important role I am generally referring to what spells being a sorcerer allows them to take that a being a cleric would not.
Well, for example, on my current divine soul I had to trade in both Absorb Elements and Shield to fit clerical spells. Neither of these are on the cleric list (least not innately) but are valuable for a sorcs continued survival as it lets them deal with incoming damage. While the spells I got out of it (Death Ward and Mass Cure Wounds) were arguably more valuable, the loss of durability can't be denied as 'painful' to say the least. I've already been in several situations that freaking HURT where one or the other could have saved me from 20-30 points of damage. Obviously being able to burn a level 1 slot is far better than a level 5 for healing or a level 4 to try and outright avoid death (if it even triggers).
Or, more simply put, if you want revivify/resurrection, that spell's gotta come from somewhere and, once you take it, there's no swapping it out until you level up (at least). So you better hope people start dying or else you've wasted a slot that could have been used on, I dunno, Fireball or something.
I'll wager that the difference is that 1) shield and absorb elements are reactions and self only whereas 2) Death ward is castable on other people, and with metamagics like twin spell and sitant spell, you can use them in ways that a cleric never could. That's the trade-off, specifically when it comes to deprioritizing personal and prioritizing support as a primary role.
I'll wager that the difference is that 1) shield and absorb elements are reactions and self only whereas 2) Death ward is castable on other people, and with metamagics like twin spell and sitant spell, you can use them in ways that a cleric never could. That's the trade-off, specifically when it comes to deprioritizing personal and prioritizing support as a primary role.
I won't deny Death Ward is, arguably, more valuable, especially to the team on the whole. But it's better to not need death ward in the first place and absorb elements and shield work much better for that (especially for multi-hit things as death ward only saves you once) as well as not straining more valuable spell slots. I'm not arguing there are 'better' spells you can take. I'm saying that the mixing of lists results in a sorc that isn't as good as a 'pure' sorc and a cleric that isn't as good as a 'pure' cleric. and you're basically hoping the mixing of both off-sets the loss.
I won't deny Death Ward is, arguably, more valuable, especially to the team on the whole. But it's better to not need death ward in the first place and absorb elements and shield work much better for that (especially for multi-hit things as death ward only saves you once) as well as not straining more valuable spell slots. I'm not arguing there are 'better' spells you can take. I'm saying that the mixing of lists results in a sorc that isn't as good as a 'pure' sorc and a cleric that isn't as good as a 'pure' cleric. and you're basically hoping the mixing of both off-sets the loss.
While I agree that the Divine Soul could do with either half or a full spell list like other sub-classes have (even just a basic mix of healing and support spells would do, to free up a few extra choices), I think you might be over-estimating how many of your normal spell choices need to be devoted to cleric spells to be valuable.
Firstly, you do get one added alignment specific spell at 1st level; the only one of these I don't like is neutral (Protection From Evil and Good) as it's more situational than the others. For rest the choices are all solid as they pair well with Metamagics; Cure Wounds and Inflict Wounds are ideal for Twinned Spell, while Bane and Bless can be cast with Quickened Spell to make them significantly better than they are on an ordinary cleric (who basically loses their turn to cast them).
Second, thanks to metamagics you don't need a lot of Cleric spells to gain a great deal of healing ability. Twinned Spell lets you double the effectiveness of any single target spell like Healing Word, Lesser Restoration etc., for far less cost than if you used sorcery points to create an extra spell slot; or even double the effect of spells you couldn't create an extra slot for at all, like Heal, Regenerate etc. Extended Spell can enable to you get more out of a single casting of a spell (for only a single sorcery point) and so-on.
Third, while Absorb Elements and Shield are both good to have if you're expecting to be in the line of fire most of the time, even better is to not be. If you want to lean more into the cleric and support choices, then plan to avoid attacks in the first place; slap Sanctuary on yourself and use cover and you'll be basically untouchable.
Fourth, if you're all about casting then you only really need one ability score, Charisma, which gives you room to take feats if you need to add more spells; take Fey Touched and/or Shadow Touched if you still want some ability score progression. Being Charisma based you also have the option of taking a few levels in Warlock (Celestial?) which doesn't work as well for a Cleric (the combo is more ability score dependent), or a couple of levels in Paladin for durability, Divine Smites and extra Cleric spells. There are loads of good options if you need them.
Fifth, Empowered Healing potentially makes you one of the best healers in the game, really only second to a Life Domain Cleric, especially if you combine it with something like Prayer of Healing where you roll once for everyone.
If you want to be more of a blaster/cleric mix on a pure Sorcerer then of course you're going to have to make sacrifices to do that; even with a full added spell list you're not going to have room to take everything you might want to, but there are a lot of powerful choices you can take from the Cleric spell list, even if you only take one in every five spells from that list. Plus Sorcerers get a lot more cantrip choices (and earlier) than Clerics do, so you can actually take more on top of Guidance, Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead and Thaumaturgy.
My personal fix for sorcerer is that I give them spells based on their subclass if they didn't get them and I let them use the optional spell points rule from the dungeon masters guide . The first part fixes the lack of spells known and the second part gives them more spell casting flexibility in both meta magic and slots; and makes them play differently to the other casters.
I also really like the shard items from tasha's like the astral shard that apply effects when using meta magic. They're great to give meta magic some extra flair. I think these things on their own are some home brew meta magics.
Things like
Additional meta magics like
Chaotic wish which is basically the effect of the mizzium apparatus for chaos sorcerers only. They can replicate a sorcerer spell they don't know with a chance of it ending up as a random spell.
Efficient spell which is basically what dragon's breath is to burning hands but to similar first level damage spells from the sorcerer list. It lets you take a first level spell like ice knife and use it as an action for a minute without spending more spell slots while you maintain concentration for the cost of a second level spell.
hijack spell which is a counterspell like ability that lets you apply meta magic to other peoples spell even enemies so you could twin a spell back at them for example or protect allies with a careful spell.
Transmuted spell can be any damage type and it ignores resistances to what ever type you change it too
Heightened and empowered spell make the spell be treated as level 6 or higher ( without actually increasing the spell level) for the purpose of over coming things like globe of invulnerability or [Tooltip Not Found]
Extended spell lets you hold the spells extra duration with concentration to activate when you want or automatically at the end of the spell
subtle spell if a spell like charm person would normally let a creature know it was charmed by you they must instead make an arcana check v.s your spell save dc or be aware they were charmed and when but not immediately know who.
Seeing as how the Lunar Sorcerer from the latest Unearthed Arcana continues the Tasha's tradition of an expanded spell list, I think it's safe to say that when the errata comes out in 2024, already existing sorcerers will get an expanded spell list. So, if you've got a good list written out, prepare it for when Wizards inevitable asks for advice.
Most the classes need to be revamped. Bring everyone up to wizard level.
For your 1. Again most classes have this problem. Warlocks have like 3. And a stunning number of spells that scream warlock aren't warlock or are only on a subclass or in a invocation but are wizard. Wizards have like 50. Locks, bards, sorceres should have at least 1 unique spell per spell level and should tie into thier theme/abilities, like how a at least one of the lock uniques don't scale. Why doesn't hunger of hadar scale, that is the locks gimmick.
2, yeah that would be cool
3. Sure I guess, I think they need more metamgic points and to be able to choose more metamagics
4. Agreed. IMO all casters with fixed known spells instead of preparation based casting should know more spells than a preparation caster can prepare, as theirs are fixed and cant be swapped daily. And yes, Sorcerers should have more known than bards, but I am of the opinion the bard should have been designed as a partial caster with better non casting benefits. Bards being the 2nd best caster in the game feels weird to me it doesn't seem to fit them.
The non casters need the biggest remakes in the game though.
WHen I had a player take Divine Soul, I revamped it so that they selected a Cleric Domain and they received those spells added onto the class as spells known. This made the class so much more playable and fun for the player while also adding a distinct flair.
WHen I had a player take Divine Soul, I revamped it so that they selected a Cleric Domain and they received those spells added onto the class as spells known. This made the class so much more playable and fun for the player while also adding a distinct flair.
I did the same, I tend to think the 10 spells is probably too many. I think 5 would have been balanced better but o well
Technically true, but highly unlikely they will know anywhere near all of it or even 1/2 of it. But, they will know more than any of the known classes know and they will have prepared more than any of the known classes know.
Having more in their spell book than a known casters knows is sort of what I'd assume. They should not be able to prepare as many as a sorcerer or other known caster knows. And sorcerers should know the most spells out of known casters, they are as much of a pure caster as a wizard is, bards and warlocks aren't mechanically. I'd say thematically warlocks are as well but class mechanical design wise no. Bards are neither thematically nor mechanically as pure caster as a wizard or sorcerer.
I mean, wizards are literally able to know their whole class list so...
But they are limited to level+INT MOD for prepared spells...so at level 9 that is 14 spells prepared
A Sorc having 20 at level 9 just seems a bit excessive
Would it be the end of the world...no. Not even close, but a bit much imo
Sure, but a Cleric at level 9 would also have 14 spells prepared, AND all 10 of their domain spells, for 24 total. By your reckoning, shouldn't that seem more than a bit excessive?
Maybe restricting the changeability of Origin spells would alleviate your concern to some degree?
I mean, wizards are literally able to know their whole class list so...
But they are limited to level+INT MOD for prepared spells...so at level 9 that is 14 spells prepared
A Sorc having 20 at level 9 just seems a bit excessive
Would it be the end of the world...no. Not even close, but a bit much imo
Sure, but a Cleric at level 9 would also have 14 spells prepared, AND all 10 of their domain spells, for 24 total. By your reckoning, shouldn't that seem more than a bit excessive?
Maybe restricting the changeability of Origin spells would alleviate your concern to some degree?
The Cleric domain spells tend to have a lot of circumstantial spells...spells that you normally don't prepare but are good to have in those rare situations.
It would largely depend on how they implement it, if it's done like the clockwork soul and aberrant mind sub class where you can switch them out, then it's probably a bit much. If it's a set list with that resembles any of the pre-tasha's lists then it's probably fine.
I mean, wizards are literally able to know their whole class list so...
But they are limited to level+INT MOD for prepared spells...so at level 9 that is 14 spells prepared
A Sorc having 20 at level 9 just seems a bit excessive
Would it be the end of the world...no. Not even close, but a bit much imo
No it doesn't seem too much and it should scale from there instead of petering out right after level 9. If given the choice of 14 spells i could prep from a pool of 40 vs 20 permanently known spells, I'm taking the 14 every time.
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I play a support divine soul as well. What I'm trying to say though is that a Divine Soul can't go full support without giving up it's primary role as a sorcerer turning them into, well, a squishy cleric and if it just goes sorcerer it misses the whole point of it's sub-class. The result being you gotta try and mish-mash two unrelated spell lists together. This wouldn't be an issue if Sorcs prepped spells like other classes. You think you need support for a fight, swap out for support. You think you need damage, swap out for damage. Or even if they had a larger spells known amount (cause then they can realistically fit it all), but as-is you have two roles and spell lists competing for a VERY limited number of slots. Instead of doing one thing 'good' you kinda do both things 'mediocre'. You can't get in the offensive support that a sorcerer might need (stuff like shield/absorb elements or lower-level damage spells) but you also lack the healing and party support that a cleric could bring.
I don't think this would be an issue if they could have just a FEW MORE ****ING SPELLS KNOWN, but the dumb decision to limit them to FREAKING 15 really hobbles the class.
Why would you want to go full support? An 11th level divine sorcerer with twin heal and no other cleric spells is pretty darn powerful and doesn't need any other cleric spells to be able to outheal the cleric all day long.
Also there are more classes that know spells than there are that prepare them.
Clerics, Druids, Wizards, Artificers and Paladins prepare
Bards, Warlocks, Rangers, Arcane Tricksters, Eldritch Knigts and Sorcerers know spells.
I think the prepared vs known breakdown works well considering the spell selections available and the class/subclass abilities.
Also Wizards really depends on the campaign. The Wizard has more spells in his book and more prepared than the sorcerer has known, but he can't change them out. So unless the campaign has a lot of spell books, scrolls and downtime, what the Wizard selects at level up are part of his book for life.
I think that depends on what you consider the "primary role" of a sorcerer. I get the feeling you might mean "blaster", and that's ONE type of sorcerer. I think the base sorcerer class features augment a solely support character just fine, and when you add in things like "Favored by the Gods", it makes it even better. I would say your base assumption that sorcerers across the board have a single "primary role" is off base.
EDIT: I also WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE ABOUT THE SPELLS KNOWN ARGH
I'm actually not referring to blaster. While that is an important role I am generally referring to what spells being a sorcerer allows them to take that a being a cleric would not.
Such as?
Well, for example, on my current divine soul I had to trade in both Absorb Elements and Shield to fit clerical spells. Neither of these are on the cleric list (least not innately) but are valuable for a sorcs continued survival as it lets them deal with incoming damage. While the spells I got out of it (Death Ward and Mass Cure Wounds) were arguably more valuable, the loss of durability can't be denied as 'painful' to say the least. I've already been in several situations that freaking HURT where one or the other could have saved me from 20-30 points of damage. Obviously being able to burn a level 1 slot is far better than a level 5 for healing or a level 4 to try and outright avoid death (if it even triggers).
Or, more simply put, if you want revivify/resurrection, that spell's gotta come from somewhere and, once you take it, there's no swapping it out until you level up (at least). So you better hope people start dying or else you've wasted a slot that could have been used on, I dunno, Fireball or something.
I'll wager that the difference is that 1) shield and absorb elements are reactions and self only whereas 2) Death ward is castable on other people, and with metamagics like twin spell and sitant spell, you can use them in ways that a cleric never could. That's the trade-off, specifically when it comes to deprioritizing personal and prioritizing support as a primary role.
I won't deny Death Ward is, arguably, more valuable, especially to the team on the whole. But it's better to not need death ward in the first place and absorb elements and shield work much better for that (especially for multi-hit things as death ward only saves you once) as well as not straining more valuable spell slots. I'm not arguing there are 'better' spells you can take. I'm saying that the mixing of lists results in a sorc that isn't as good as a 'pure' sorc and a cleric that isn't as good as a 'pure' cleric. and you're basically hoping the mixing of both off-sets the loss.
While I agree that the Divine Soul could do with either half or a full spell list like other sub-classes have (even just a basic mix of healing and support spells would do, to free up a few extra choices), I think you might be over-estimating how many of your normal spell choices need to be devoted to cleric spells to be valuable.
Firstly, you do get one added alignment specific spell at 1st level; the only one of these I don't like is neutral (Protection From Evil and Good) as it's more situational than the others. For rest the choices are all solid as they pair well with Metamagics; Cure Wounds and Inflict Wounds are ideal for Twinned Spell, while Bane and Bless can be cast with Quickened Spell to make them significantly better than they are on an ordinary cleric (who basically loses their turn to cast them).
Second, thanks to metamagics you don't need a lot of Cleric spells to gain a great deal of healing ability. Twinned Spell lets you double the effectiveness of any single target spell like Healing Word, Lesser Restoration etc., for far less cost than if you used sorcery points to create an extra spell slot; or even double the effect of spells you couldn't create an extra slot for at all, like Heal, Regenerate etc. Extended Spell can enable to you get more out of a single casting of a spell (for only a single sorcery point) and so-on.
Third, while Absorb Elements and Shield are both good to have if you're expecting to be in the line of fire most of the time, even better is to not be. If you want to lean more into the cleric and support choices, then plan to avoid attacks in the first place; slap Sanctuary on yourself and use cover and you'll be basically untouchable.
Fourth, if you're all about casting then you only really need one ability score, Charisma, which gives you room to take feats if you need to add more spells; take Fey Touched and/or Shadow Touched if you still want some ability score progression. Being Charisma based you also have the option of taking a few levels in Warlock (Celestial?) which doesn't work as well for a Cleric (the combo is more ability score dependent), or a couple of levels in Paladin for durability, Divine Smites and extra Cleric spells. There are loads of good options if you need them.
Fifth, Empowered Healing potentially makes you one of the best healers in the game, really only second to a Life Domain Cleric, especially if you combine it with something like Prayer of Healing where you roll once for everyone.
If you want to be more of a blaster/cleric mix on a pure Sorcerer then of course you're going to have to make sacrifices to do that; even with a full added spell list you're not going to have room to take everything you might want to, but there are a lot of powerful choices you can take from the Cleric spell list, even if you only take one in every five spells from that list. Plus Sorcerers get a lot more cantrip choices (and earlier) than Clerics do, so you can actually take more on top of Guidance, Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead and Thaumaturgy.
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Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
My personal fix for sorcerer is that I give them spells based on their subclass if they didn't get them and I let them use the optional spell points rule from the dungeon masters guide . The first part fixes the lack of spells known and the second part gives them more spell casting flexibility in both meta magic and slots; and makes them play differently to the other casters.
I also really like the shard items from tasha's like the astral shard that apply effects when using meta magic. They're great to give meta magic some extra flair. I think these things on their own are some home brew meta magics.
Things like
Additional meta magics like
Seeing as how the Lunar Sorcerer from the latest Unearthed Arcana continues the Tasha's tradition of an expanded spell list, I think it's safe to say that when the errata comes out in 2024, already existing sorcerers will get an expanded spell list. So, if you've got a good list written out, prepare it for when Wizards inevitable asks for advice.
Most the classes need to be revamped. Bring everyone up to wizard level.
For your 1. Again most classes have this problem. Warlocks have like 3. And a stunning number of spells that scream warlock aren't warlock or are only on a subclass or in a invocation but are wizard. Wizards have like 50. Locks, bards, sorceres should have at least 1 unique spell per spell level and should tie into thier theme/abilities, like how a at least one of the lock uniques don't scale. Why doesn't hunger of hadar scale, that is the locks gimmick.
2, yeah that would be cool
3. Sure I guess, I think they need more metamgic points and to be able to choose more metamagics
4. Agreed. IMO all casters with fixed known spells instead of preparation based casting should know more spells than a preparation caster can prepare, as theirs are fixed and cant be swapped daily. And yes, Sorcerers should have more known than bards, but I am of the opinion the bard should have been designed as a partial caster with better non casting benefits. Bards being the 2nd best caster in the game feels weird to me it doesn't seem to fit them.
The non casters need the biggest remakes in the game though.
WHen I had a player take Divine Soul, I revamped it so that they selected a Cleric Domain and they received those spells added onto the class as spells known. This made the class so much more playable and fun for the player while also adding a distinct flair.
I did the same, I tend to think the 10 spells is probably too many. I think 5 would have been balanced better but o well
I mean, wizards are literally able to know their whole class list so...
Technically true, but highly unlikely they will know anywhere near all of it or even 1/2 of it. But, they will know more than any of the known classes know and they will have prepared more than any of the known classes know.
Having more in their spell book than a known casters knows is sort of what I'd assume. They should not be able to prepare as many as a sorcerer or other known caster knows. And sorcerers should know the most spells out of known casters, they are as much of a pure caster as a wizard is, bards and warlocks aren't mechanically. I'd say thematically warlocks are as well but class mechanical design wise no. Bards are neither thematically nor mechanically as pure caster as a wizard or sorcerer.
But they are limited to level+INT MOD for prepared spells...so at level 9 that is 14 spells prepared
A Sorc having 20 at level 9 just seems a bit excessive
Would it be the end of the world...no. Not even close, but a bit much imo
Sure, but a Cleric at level 9 would also have 14 spells prepared, AND all 10 of their domain spells, for 24 total. By your reckoning, shouldn't that seem more than a bit excessive?
Maybe restricting the changeability of Origin spells would alleviate your concern to some degree?
The Cleric domain spells tend to have a lot of circumstantial spells...spells that you normally don't prepare but are good to have in those rare situations.
It would largely depend on how they implement it, if it's done like the clockwork soul and aberrant mind sub class where you can switch them out, then it's probably a bit much. If it's a set list with that resembles any of the pre-tasha's lists then it's probably fine.
No it doesn't seem too much and it should scale from there instead of petering out right after level 9. If given the choice of 14 spells i could prep from a pool of 40 vs 20 permanently known spells, I'm taking the 14 every time.