Is this a bold, brash notion? Yes. But as someone who loves sorcerer I know that the class as a whole got the shaft in regards of arcane casters. These are my opinions, and my only hope is to tickle the brain of someone who can actually do something with sorcerers to make them a class more people consider. I have played sorcerers as both a multiclass as well as the only class, and so these are my findings based on such. I do not want to start fights or flaming, I just want to shout into the void in the vain hope something might change. With that rambling preamble, let me dive right in.
1. Sorcerers have few, if any, sorcerer only spells.
Why is this a problem? Other classes are defined with spells only they can use, or subclasses that are designed to lean into those classes have access to. It fits a theme, often the core gimmick, and gives them a unique flair that only they can have. For example; I say Eldritch Blast, and you probably thought of warlock. Casters of both arcane and divine nature have their calling card spells, save for sorcerer. This makes their spell lists entirely un-unique and bland, which can lead to them feeling just a bit less satisfying to play than other casters as a whole.
2. Sorcerers should be self-focus with non-consumable or gold valued material components.
First of all, what does that mean? As we all know, some spells require material components to work. Bat dung, sulfur, moss, bone dust, dirt, sand, diamonds, pearls, you name it. You don't have that lightning bug? Looks like you can't cast Light in that dark cave. However as sorcerers are designed by WotC to be creatures who have magic innately flowing through their veins, why should they need components that aren't required to be consumed by the spell, or have a gold value? To have raw magic in your very being is to set you apart from all other casters divine or arcane. If the spell doesn't call for the item to be lost in casting the spell, or have a gold value such as a diamond worth at least 250 gold, I feel that it would fit the theme of sorcerers perfectly and give them a great reason to be chosen. As of right now, sorcerers only have one unique gimmick, which leads me to the next point to mention.
3. Sorcerers only have the Font of Magic to stand apart.
Don't get me wrong! Metamagic is super strong, amazing, and useful. I love it, and I love using it. Changing sorcery points for spell slots is useful in the tight spots you find yourself in after level 8. However it's the only real gimmick sorcerers have. With all other casters having unique spells and flavors to make their class as a whole appealing, if you can't sell someone with the Font of Magic to play sorcerer, they won't play sorcerer. Yes, the origins come in level 1, but that really doesn't give you a reason to play a sorcerer over a wizard, druid, bard, or cleric who have ritual casting. Of the full casters, only Warlock and Sorcerer lack that feature. Combine that with the lack of unique spells, there are less reasons to play the sorcerer class than any other full caster.
4. Even bards get more known spells.
Sorcerers are beings of raw magic, but bards get more spells known? Why? Sorcerers cap out (unless your DM removes this cap) at 15 known spells, while bards get a whopping 22. Honestly, this should be reversed. I don't know who made that call, but man is it a weird one.
Again, these are my personal views and feelings. I know loads of people will disagree, argue that they are op already, or have loads of gimmicks, but everyone has their thoughts on what classes do what. I probably won't touch this thread again as I have done my void screaming. Happy gaming.
I think the Pre-Tasha's Sorcerer Lineages just need adjustments. Tasha's gave aberrant mind and the Clockwork Soul Sorcerer's an extra 10 spells for levels 1-5, and gave them the ability to swap them out for alternative spells drawn from set schools of magic. as far as a Complete overhaul im inclined to disagree with you, though they should have a broader list of spells to choose from i will grant you that. the majority of the class is in those Heritages, Dragonblood Sorcerer's for instance gain a number of powers like dragons from scaled skin to wings. Shadow Sorcerer's get many strong powers associated with shadows darkness and death very in line with their innate connection to the Shadowfell, the Hound of Ill Omen is fantastic in this regard, a Shadowy hound which hunts and tracks a particular target through walls and doors till he has engaged him in combat then the massive hound imposes disadvantages on the sorcerer's s targets spell saves? NICE!
but I agree the Basic Sorcerer spell limitation does suck, and I Hope that Wizards will soon fix the Older Lineages with a Tasha's like enhancement. but even then, 25 spells known is not a huge number, but it is offset by their ability to cast any spell they know at any time. while Memorization classes like the Wizard, Druid, and Cleric have effectively no limit to their known spells (other than cantrips), they have to pick and choose their spells at every long rest meaning that if they pick a wrong spell it may not be useful at all the next day (like grabbing a bunch of fire spells then fighting a red dragon).
I do believe now that through feats other classes can gain some metamagic abilities WoTC does need to revisit the older lineages, sadly they will appear not in an errata but in some other book eventually with a $50 price tag
There have been many, many threads on this forum about revamping sorcerer. A good one is here. I think all of us who love the class want to see revisions made although we all have different ideas about how to go about it.
My current Aberrant Mind sorcerer has the metamagic adept feat, ritual caster feat and a Bloodwell Vial. Our DM allows me to change out one spell per long rest. We use the expanded spell list in Tasha's which has been great as I've always coveted the Wizard's access to Bigby's Hand. Those things alone have made the class easier to play. I would like to see a revamped sorcerer have things like origin spells and the ability to get back sorcery points on a short rest without having to choose one or the other new subclasses or depending on my DM to give me a Bloodwell Vial. A d8 hit die or proficiency with armor or a weapon would be nice.
I don't have issues with carrying a focus. Sorcerers are supposed to have innate magic they need to learn to control as opposed to a wizard just learning spells from a book. I see having a focus as a natural part of learning to control the forces surging within them. Plus its fun. Currently my sorcerer uses tattoos as her focus.
I have played other classes and I always, always miss having metamagic. Being able to twin a spell, force disadvantage or break the action economy with Quicken is amazing. Mechanically there may be better classes but I have the most fun when I am playing a sorcerer.
While I agree with a lot of this, I don't think a total revamp is needed.
We definitely need spell lists on the older sub-classes, the spells are just too limited otherwise; I've done homebrew versions of a bunch of them that you can see from my signature, and most were just adding spell lists (though a few, like Draconic and Wild Magic, have had some feature changes as well).
On spells, while it'd be nice to have more unique Sorcerer only spells (I think Chaos Bolt might be the only one?), I'm more concerned with the spells we simply don't have access to, especially as some of them cause a big squeeze on the number of useful spells of certain elements we have; I tend to find it natural to want to theme a sorcerer around one or two main elements, but the spell selection is really bad for a lot of them. For example, I'd like access to Primal Savagery for a good acid cantrip (and an additional melee option, as we don't have many), Wizards got a bunch of new cold spells in Rime of the Frostmaiden, but Sorcerers are still stuck with a poor selection.
There are also a bunch of spells I think we don't get access to purely because of Twinned Spell, like True Polymorph, which leads to the ridiculous situation where literally any Bard or Wizard can turn into a dragon, but a Draconic Sorcerer cannot, I'd rather have a better spell list and an additional limit placed on Twinned Spell instead to prevent abuse.
Other than this, I think we just need to get more Metamagic choices; I ended up taking Metamagic Adept on my current Sorcerer as only having three options was just too limiting, as there are metamagics I want to take, but I always end up taking the ones that I can use in most combats instead, because anything too situational risks hardly ever being used.
I wouldn't be in favor of a revamp, just tweaks would be fine.
Give each subclass a list of 10 spells that are innate for Sorcerers...I don't even think the option to swap them out is necessary since that at level 9 that would mean 20 spells known (literally doubled over before). The goal shouldn't be to outdo Wizards, just to close the gap and letting them swap out the innate spells does stat to move into that territory at the lower levels where Sorcs would have 20 spells known and able to cast on any given day vs a Wizard's 24 known but 14 prepared. I would also get rid of the level 10 spell known just so the Sorcerer gets capped at 25 spells known at level 20 which equals a Wizards number of prepared spells.
Other than that, I would move the level 14 subclass feature to 10 and the level 18 feature to 14. This way the levels of play you are more likely to see includes 3 subclass features just like the Warlock, Wizard, and most other classes.
And that's it honestly...same class, same feel, but improve the low performing areas. Maybe give them a better way to recoup Sorc points...something during a short rest. Maybe once per day 1/2 your level in Sorc points rounded down
Question: Is the Sorcery Point system actually any fun for anyone? Mind you, I'm not talking about Metamagic, I'm talking about the little mini game of converting spell slots to Sorcery Points and vice versa. Does anyone actually like how that feels in game? Does it feel like you're actually accomplishing meaningful actions in character when you take those bonus actions to use your Font of Magic? Because I don't think it is fun nor do I think it adds to the themes or gamefeel of the class, but I am open to hearing other people's perspective.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Question: Is the Sorcery Point system actually any fun for anyone? Mind you, I'm not talking about Metamagic, I'm talking about the little mini game of converting spell slots to Sorcery Points and vice versa. Does anyone actually like how that feels in game? Does it feel like you're actually accomplishing meaningful actions in character when you take those bonus actions to use your Font of Magic? Because I don't think it is fun nor do I think it adds to the themes or gamefeel of the class, but I am open to hearing other people's perspective.
I agree that it isn't fun...If Sorcery Points are *the* feature, then I think stretching it as thin as they do isn't the way to go
I don't know how often players use Sorcery Points to create Spell Slots...I rarely if ever do that, but I often find myself using spell slots to create sorcery points just so I can keep doing metamagic, but I wouldn't consider that part fun, it's more like treading water to keep from drowning
Question: Is the Sorcery Point system actually any fun for anyone? Mind you, I'm not talking about Metamagic, I'm talking about the little mini game of converting spell slots to Sorcery Points and vice versa. Does anyone actually like how that feels in game? Does it feel like you're actually accomplishing meaningful actions in character when you take those bonus actions to use your Font of Magic? Because I don't think it is fun nor do I think it adds to the themes or gamefeel of the class, but I am open to hearing other people's perspective.
I'm okay with it though it can get a little clunky.
It could probably do with being streamlined into something like "as a bonus action you can convert a spell slot into a number of sorcery points equal to its level" and separately "you can cast a spell using sorcery points in place of a spell slot, at a cost of 1 + the spell's level up to a maximum of 5th level". Most of the time you'll convert to points in the aftermath of a fight, so you can rebalance (turn a few higher level slots into more lower level slots for stuff that doesn't scale like Shield), and this would make casting with them smoother since all you need is enough points to cast the spell.
This would have the side effect of making Paladin + Sorcerer multiclasses a bit less powerful in terms of quantities of divine smites (as while high level slots can be nice when you crit, often it's better to just have as many 1st and 2nd levels as possible so you can smite as much as possible), this would no longer be possible since the spending side is only usable to cast (or use Metamagic and other Sorcerer abilities). I think it'd still be a neat combo, but would maybe tone down that multiclass a bit.
I find Font of Magic clunky. I have in the heat of battle converted spell slots to sorcery points and then used them to replace a higher level spell slot I really needed but it works best when you do that on a short rest. I prefer to just convert spell slots to sorcery points to power metamagic. I find that is usually the best way to go - but then I never multiclass.
Question: Is the Sorcery Point system actually any fun for anyone? Mind you, I'm not talking about Metamagic, I'm talking about the little mini game of converting spell slots to Sorcery Points and vice versa. Does anyone actually like how that feels in game? Does it feel like you're actually accomplishing meaningful actions in character when you take those bonus actions to use your Font of Magic? Because I don't think it is fun nor do I think it adds to the themes or gamefeel of the class, but I am open to hearing other people's perspective.
The Sorcery Point system is a little clunky in some cases sure, and while it is a unique feature of the Sorcerer i don't feel it really needs a major overhaul, i think maybe rather than the cost's they have listed now for 1st through 5th level slots you could say 1 SP per slot generated, and while yes this may create a possible balance issue in some cases, the reverse is true meaning you generate fewer SP to convert a slot into SP. this could alleviate the strain on SP for some of those cool class features, but some are fairly low in cost as it is, like the SHadow Sorcerer's Hound of Ill omen being only 3 SP to summon, which may be hard to justify at level 6, but at level 12 or higher it's less of a concern.
I do like the Idea of being able to regenerate some SP on a short rest like the Wizards ability to Recall some spent spell slots (and i would use the same limitation as well), Also i forgot to focus on OP's question about component use for sorcerer's. in the 3.x system Sorcerer's gained a feat at 1st level called Eschew Components. this feat didn't completely remove a sorcerer's need for materials at higher levels but it did allow a Sorcerer to ignore Common Material components with a cost of 100gp or less. now what is a common material component? things like wax, dung, sulfur would be fairly easy to acquire. a 100gp+ pearl probably not, a small lightning bug? yeah sure. keep these within reason of course.
I honestly don't know what I would replace it with, but I know that I don't like it and it doesn't make Sorcerers feel like what their lore describes them as. To be very honest, I think certain Eldritch Invocations that allows spells to be cast endlessly are more what I think a Sorcerer should feel like.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
as far as material components go look to the 3.0/3.5 eschew materials feat, i use a version of that for my 5e sorcerers as a part of their "Font of magic" feature. It's been a While since i looked up the feat myself but basically it allows the spell caster with it to ignore material components with a cost lower than a certain GP value. now i can't remember if it was 50gp or 100gp worth of common Material components. but as long as it was easily available either by purchase or gathering in some form (lightning bugs, mistletoe, Dung, wax, ect.) you could ignore it. if it was a more valuable or rare item like a pearl worth 100gp, or a Diamond, or similar rarer items (a dragon scale or some such) then you would need said item to make it work. however i feel 5e has fewer spells with material component requirements in the low end, but a 50gp cost would be easily accommodated, for most lower level spells.
Focuses aren't that big of an issue to carry around and can have some lore reasons for it. For example, my sorceress uses a gem in her necklace that was given to her by her mother as her spell-casting focus and it has come up a few times in roleplay. That said I do find it weird that a class that could have a magical effect on the world just by being born needs a focus to operate. I can see them getting the ability to not need one, but it's not a big deal if not.
Meta-magic and Sorc points. I think the real issue with sorc points is their exchange rate here. A level 10 sorcerer with 10 sorc points would only be able to create 2 level 3 spells without having to burn other spell slots to get more. They wouldn't be able to do a double refill on level 5's until they hit 14, and a lot of campaigns end before then. Meanwhile Meta-magic is sort of a hit or miss thing. Something like extend spell or distant spell has situational use at best. Most combat ends in under a minute and distant spell only matters if the enemy is far enough away to need it in the first place. Which, considering you can move 30 feet a round base and most spells have a 30/60 foot range, means a foe needs to be between 35-60/65-90 feet away for it to even matter. Not saying they don't have uses. Just that you can easily get into a fight and not have them matter. Twinned is the 'best' simply because it always HAS a use. Even if that use is just hitting two foes at once with a firebolt. Yet this is our major class feature and something SO limited we only have 4 at level 17 (which only a very few campaigns reach) and 3 at level 10 (which is still kinda high). No wonder everyone takes twinned and quickened. They're the only ones guaranteed to have an actual use. Obviously something like heightened is still useful, but the fact is most meta is stuck firmly in the 'situational' category.
I feel the best way to fix it would be to first increase where they can draw spells from. It feels like they're limited to mainly wizard spells, so why not give them a few from other classes to pick from as well? I'm not saying they need to have the full druid spell list, but surely it couldn't hurt to be able to tap into a few of those spells (why CAN'T sorcs cast find familiar anyways? Or am I just missing it entirely?) Secondly would be to increase their meta-magic options by at least one right from the get-go. You could even limit which meta's that third one is and it would still be very helpful. Third, I think sorcs need a cost reduction on turning points into spell slots. You can make it a passive ability as they level up; but it feels irritating that I can never get a discount on a level 1 spell slot even if I'm a level 20. Fourth, a few more meta's that are always 'useful' would be nice (like one that's twinned, but distinctly cheaper, but only works for non-damaging spells). Finally, a way to restore sorc points in combat would go a long way towards closing the gap. Not sure WHAT exactly since a lot of ways could be abused, but it really sucks to have to lose a spell slot to refill my points.
Some of the issue I find with Sorcerer is they over weighed metamagic as a feature while completely ignoring they took away the major advantage spells known classes have when they made spells prepared classes less vancian.
Honestly, I think the best fix, beyond just giving us more damn spells known, is moving the class to a pool of spell points instead of spell slots and sorcery points. Just give us one lump pot of points like a mana pool, and then let that power all spellcasting and metamagic. If metamagic is supposed to be the defining feature of the class, it needs to be built in innately, and not some clunky mechanic to make it fit like converting.
Literally just let it be "You have X amount of points. Each spell level is one point, and each metamagic has a specific point cost." It would make everything so much easier and fluid, not to mention allowing for a true versatility the class is striving for but missing the mark on.
Honestly, I think the best fix, beyond just giving us more damn spells known, is moving the class to a pool of spell points instead of spell slots and sorcery points. Just give us one lump pot of points like a mana pool, and then let that power all spellcasting and metamagic. If metamagic is supposed to be the defining feature of the class, it needs to be built in innately, and not some clunky mechanic to make it fit like converting.
Literally just let it be "You have X amount of points. Each spell level is one point, and each metamagic has a specific point cost." It would make everything so much easier and fluid, not to mention allowing for a true versatility the class is striving for but missing the mark on.
But then couldn't you just spam high-level spells effectively endlessly? Or, alternatively, be so limited in your casts that you're basically a warlock without the invocations?
Sorcers who take a crap subclass get the fewest spells known, but a wise subclass selection fixes that, and lets you pull off of other class spell tables, either the cleric table with divine soul or wizard or warlock table with abberant mind or clockwork. Being able to pick up spells off another list at level up is pretty unique and it makes some of those Warlock and Wizard only spells not really Warlock and Wizard only. The only other class that does that is Bard and it is at a much higher level and with fewer spells.
Also their limited spells known is heavily offset by both having the largest number of cantrips and the largest number of slots (considering you can trade SPs for slots). At low and mid levels Sorcerers are going to be casting spells more than their counterparts and typically have far more utility in terms of cantrips.
As far as components, they have an arcane focus, which fills that thematic niche pretty effectively I think.
Finally sorcerers do have some unique spells - Chaos Bolt and Flame Blade are both signature sorcerer spells.
I think the cleric list may actually be sort of a drawback. You've already got a lot vying for those valuable spots and now you have to stack cleric spells on top of that. Especially if your party expects you to go into a healing/support roll. You end up kind of being a squishy cleric/white mage. Not as bad as Wild Magic gets it, for sure, but not as huge an advantage as some people probably think. It's like trying to eat two 30" sandwiches at the same time. You're already going to be more than stuffed with the first one to the point you're sick and/or have to put some aside, and now you are going to cram a second one down with it? Maybe it's still a positive but I don't think it's as huge a one as some people think. Mixing and mashing two spell lists not intended to work together and having to take the 'best' from each of them can leave you underperforming in either role.
Yes, both of those things become options. However, it's one or the other. These options are still highly resource limited, but the ability to adjust tactics as needed is the definition of versatility the sorcerer class if meant to embody. So what if the sorcerer uses all their resources on a few fireballs and then has nothing left but cantrips the rest of the day? Why is that an issue?
As someone playing a support based divine soul, I could not disagree more. The class features of sorcerer work very well with cleric spells for the purposes of support. If you're wanting to be a blaster, divine soul isnt the right option, but that doesn't mean its ALWAYS a bad option.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Is this a bold, brash notion? Yes. But as someone who loves sorcerer I know that the class as a whole got the shaft in regards of arcane casters. These are my opinions, and my only hope is to tickle the brain of someone who can actually do something with sorcerers to make them a class more people consider. I have played sorcerers as both a multiclass as well as the only class, and so these are my findings based on such. I do not want to start fights or flaming, I just want to shout into the void in the vain hope something might change. With that rambling preamble, let me dive right in.
1. Sorcerers have few, if any, sorcerer only spells.
Why is this a problem? Other classes are defined with spells only they can use, or subclasses that are designed to lean into those classes have access to. It fits a theme, often the core gimmick, and gives them a unique flair that only they can have. For example; I say Eldritch Blast, and you probably thought of warlock. Casters of both arcane and divine nature have their calling card spells, save for sorcerer. This makes their spell lists entirely un-unique and bland, which can lead to them feeling just a bit less satisfying to play than other casters as a whole.
2. Sorcerers should be self-focus with non-consumable or gold valued material components.
First of all, what does that mean? As we all know, some spells require material components to work. Bat dung, sulfur, moss, bone dust, dirt, sand, diamonds, pearls, you name it. You don't have that lightning bug? Looks like you can't cast Light in that dark cave. However as sorcerers are designed by WotC to be creatures who have magic innately flowing through their veins, why should they need components that aren't required to be consumed by the spell, or have a gold value? To have raw magic in your very being is to set you apart from all other casters divine or arcane. If the spell doesn't call for the item to be lost in casting the spell, or have a gold value such as a diamond worth at least 250 gold, I feel that it would fit the theme of sorcerers perfectly and give them a great reason to be chosen. As of right now, sorcerers only have one unique gimmick, which leads me to the next point to mention.
3. Sorcerers only have the Font of Magic to stand apart.
Don't get me wrong! Metamagic is super strong, amazing, and useful. I love it, and I love using it. Changing sorcery points for spell slots is useful in the tight spots you find yourself in after level 8. However it's the only real gimmick sorcerers have. With all other casters having unique spells and flavors to make their class as a whole appealing, if you can't sell someone with the Font of Magic to play sorcerer, they won't play sorcerer. Yes, the origins come in level 1, but that really doesn't give you a reason to play a sorcerer over a wizard, druid, bard, or cleric who have ritual casting. Of the full casters, only Warlock and Sorcerer lack that feature. Combine that with the lack of unique spells, there are less reasons to play the sorcerer class than any other full caster.
4. Even bards get more known spells.
Sorcerers are beings of raw magic, but bards get more spells known? Why? Sorcerers cap out (unless your DM removes this cap) at 15 known spells, while bards get a whopping 22. Honestly, this should be reversed. I don't know who made that call, but man is it a weird one.
Again, these are my personal views and feelings. I know loads of people will disagree, argue that they are op already, or have loads of gimmicks, but everyone has their thoughts on what classes do what. I probably won't touch this thread again as I have done my void screaming. Happy gaming.
I think the Pre-Tasha's Sorcerer Lineages just need adjustments. Tasha's gave aberrant mind and the Clockwork Soul Sorcerer's an extra 10 spells for levels 1-5, and gave them the ability to swap them out for alternative spells drawn from set schools of magic. as far as a Complete overhaul im inclined to disagree with you, though they should have a broader list of spells to choose from i will grant you that. the majority of the class is in those Heritages, Dragonblood Sorcerer's for instance gain a number of powers like dragons from scaled skin to wings. Shadow Sorcerer's get many strong powers associated with shadows darkness and death very in line with their innate connection to the Shadowfell, the Hound of Ill Omen is fantastic in this regard, a Shadowy hound which hunts and tracks a particular target through walls and doors till he has engaged him in combat then the massive hound imposes disadvantages on the sorcerer's s targets spell saves? NICE!
but I agree the Basic Sorcerer spell limitation does suck, and I Hope that Wizards will soon fix the Older Lineages with a Tasha's like enhancement. but even then, 25 spells known is not a huge number, but it is offset by their ability to cast any spell they know at any time. while Memorization classes like the Wizard, Druid, and Cleric have effectively no limit to their known spells (other than cantrips), they have to pick and choose their spells at every long rest meaning that if they pick a wrong spell it may not be useful at all the next day (like grabbing a bunch of fire spells then fighting a red dragon).
I do believe now that through feats other classes can gain some metamagic abilities WoTC does need to revisit the older lineages, sadly they will appear not in an errata but in some other book eventually with a $50 price tag
There have been many, many threads on this forum about revamping sorcerer. A good one is here. I think all of us who love the class want to see revisions made although we all have different ideas about how to go about it.
My current Aberrant Mind sorcerer has the metamagic adept feat, ritual caster feat and a Bloodwell Vial. Our DM allows me to change out one spell per long rest. We use the expanded spell list in Tasha's which has been great as I've always coveted the Wizard's access to Bigby's Hand. Those things alone have made the class easier to play. I would like to see a revamped sorcerer have things like origin spells and the ability to get back sorcery points on a short rest without having to choose one or the other new subclasses or depending on my DM to give me a Bloodwell Vial. A d8 hit die or proficiency with armor or a weapon would be nice.
I don't have issues with carrying a focus. Sorcerers are supposed to have innate magic they need to learn to control as opposed to a wizard just learning spells from a book. I see having a focus as a natural part of learning to control the forces surging within them. Plus its fun. Currently my sorcerer uses tattoos as her focus.
I have played other classes and I always, always miss having metamagic. Being able to twin a spell, force disadvantage or break the action economy with Quicken is amazing. Mechanically there may be better classes but I have the most fun when I am playing a sorcerer.
While I agree with a lot of this, I don't think a total revamp is needed.
We definitely need spell lists on the older sub-classes, the spells are just too limited otherwise; I've done homebrew versions of a bunch of them that you can see from my signature, and most were just adding spell lists (though a few, like Draconic and Wild Magic, have had some feature changes as well).
On spells, while it'd be nice to have more unique Sorcerer only spells (I think Chaos Bolt might be the only one?), I'm more concerned with the spells we simply don't have access to, especially as some of them cause a big squeeze on the number of useful spells of certain elements we have; I tend to find it natural to want to theme a sorcerer around one or two main elements, but the spell selection is really bad for a lot of them. For example, I'd like access to Primal Savagery for a good acid cantrip (and an additional melee option, as we don't have many), Wizards got a bunch of new cold spells in Rime of the Frostmaiden, but Sorcerers are still stuck with a poor selection.
There are also a bunch of spells I think we don't get access to purely because of Twinned Spell, like True Polymorph, which leads to the ridiculous situation where literally any Bard or Wizard can turn into a dragon, but a Draconic Sorcerer cannot, I'd rather have a better spell list and an additional limit placed on Twinned Spell instead to prevent abuse.
Other than this, I think we just need to get more Metamagic choices; I ended up taking Metamagic Adept on my current Sorcerer as only having three options was just too limiting, as there are metamagics I want to take, but I always end up taking the ones that I can use in most combats instead, because anything too situational risks hardly ever being used.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I wouldn't be in favor of a revamp, just tweaks would be fine.
Give each subclass a list of 10 spells that are innate for Sorcerers...I don't even think the option to swap them out is necessary since that at level 9 that would mean 20 spells known (literally doubled over before). The goal shouldn't be to outdo Wizards, just to close the gap and letting them swap out the innate spells does stat to move into that territory at the lower levels where Sorcs would have 20 spells known and able to cast on any given day vs a Wizard's 24 known but 14 prepared. I would also get rid of the level 10 spell known just so the Sorcerer gets capped at 25 spells known at level 20 which equals a Wizards number of prepared spells.
Other than that, I would move the level 14 subclass feature to 10 and the level 18 feature to 14. This way the levels of play you are more likely to see includes 3 subclass features just like the Warlock, Wizard, and most other classes.
And that's it honestly...same class, same feel, but improve the low performing areas. Maybe give them a better way to recoup Sorc points...something during a short rest. Maybe once per day 1/2 your level in Sorc points rounded down
Question: Is the Sorcery Point system actually any fun for anyone? Mind you, I'm not talking about Metamagic, I'm talking about the little mini game of converting spell slots to Sorcery Points and vice versa. Does anyone actually like how that feels in game? Does it feel like you're actually accomplishing meaningful actions in character when you take those bonus actions to use your Font of Magic? Because I don't think it is fun nor do I think it adds to the themes or gamefeel of the class, but I am open to hearing other people's perspective.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
I agree that it isn't fun...If Sorcery Points are *the* feature, then I think stretching it as thin as they do isn't the way to go
I don't know how often players use Sorcery Points to create Spell Slots...I rarely if ever do that, but I often find myself using spell slots to create sorcery points just so I can keep doing metamagic, but I wouldn't consider that part fun, it's more like treading water to keep from drowning
I'm okay with it though it can get a little clunky.
It could probably do with being streamlined into something like "as a bonus action you can convert a spell slot into a number of sorcery points equal to its level" and separately "you can cast a spell using sorcery points in place of a spell slot, at a cost of 1 + the spell's level up to a maximum of 5th level". Most of the time you'll convert to points in the aftermath of a fight, so you can rebalance (turn a few higher level slots into more lower level slots for stuff that doesn't scale like Shield), and this would make casting with them smoother since all you need is enough points to cast the spell.
This would have the side effect of making Paladin + Sorcerer multiclasses a bit less powerful in terms of quantities of divine smites (as while high level slots can be nice when you crit, often it's better to just have as many 1st and 2nd levels as possible so you can smite as much as possible), this would no longer be possible since the spending side is only usable to cast (or use Metamagic and other Sorcerer abilities). I think it'd still be a neat combo, but would maybe tone down that multiclass a bit.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I find Font of Magic clunky. I have in the heat of battle converted spell slots to sorcery points and then used them to replace a higher level spell slot I really needed but it works best when you do that on a short rest. I prefer to just convert spell slots to sorcery points to power metamagic. I find that is usually the best way to go - but then I never multiclass.
The Sorcery Point system is a little clunky in some cases sure, and while it is a unique feature of the Sorcerer i don't feel it really needs a major overhaul, i think maybe rather than the cost's they have listed now for 1st through 5th level slots you could say 1 SP per slot generated, and while yes this may create a possible balance issue in some cases, the reverse is true meaning you generate fewer SP to convert a slot into SP. this could alleviate the strain on SP for some of those cool class features, but some are fairly low in cost as it is, like the SHadow Sorcerer's Hound of Ill omen being only 3 SP to summon, which may be hard to justify at level 6, but at level 12 or higher it's less of a concern.
I do like the Idea of being able to regenerate some SP on a short rest like the Wizards ability to Recall some spent spell slots (and i would use the same limitation as well), Also i forgot to focus on OP's question about component use for sorcerer's. in the 3.x system Sorcerer's gained a feat at 1st level called Eschew Components. this feat didn't completely remove a sorcerer's need for materials at higher levels but it did allow a Sorcerer to ignore Common Material components with a cost of 100gp or less. now what is a common material component? things like wax, dung, sulfur would be fairly easy to acquire. a 100gp+ pearl probably not, a small lightning bug? yeah sure. keep these within reason of course.
I honestly don't know what I would replace it with, but I know that I don't like it and it doesn't make Sorcerers feel like what their lore describes them as. To be very honest, I think certain Eldritch Invocations that allows spells to be cast endlessly are more what I think a Sorcerer should feel like.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
as far as material components go look to the 3.0/3.5 eschew materials feat, i use a version of that for my 5e sorcerers as a part of their "Font of magic" feature. It's been a While since i looked up the feat myself but basically it allows the spell caster with it to ignore material components with a cost lower than a certain GP value. now i can't remember if it was 50gp or 100gp worth of common Material components. but as long as it was easily available either by purchase or gathering in some form (lightning bugs, mistletoe, Dung, wax, ect.) you could ignore it. if it was a more valuable or rare item like a pearl worth 100gp, or a Diamond, or similar rarer items (a dragon scale or some such) then you would need said item to make it work. however i feel 5e has fewer spells with material component requirements in the low end, but a 50gp cost would be easily accommodated, for most lower level spells.
Focuses aren't that big of an issue to carry around and can have some lore reasons for it. For example, my sorceress uses a gem in her necklace that was given to her by her mother as her spell-casting focus and it has come up a few times in roleplay. That said I do find it weird that a class that could have a magical effect on the world just by being born needs a focus to operate. I can see them getting the ability to not need one, but it's not a big deal if not.
Meta-magic and Sorc points. I think the real issue with sorc points is their exchange rate here. A level 10 sorcerer with 10 sorc points would only be able to create 2 level 3 spells without having to burn other spell slots to get more. They wouldn't be able to do a double refill on level 5's until they hit 14, and a lot of campaigns end before then. Meanwhile Meta-magic is sort of a hit or miss thing. Something like extend spell or distant spell has situational use at best. Most combat ends in under a minute and distant spell only matters if the enemy is far enough away to need it in the first place. Which, considering you can move 30 feet a round base and most spells have a 30/60 foot range, means a foe needs to be between 35-60/65-90 feet away for it to even matter. Not saying they don't have uses. Just that you can easily get into a fight and not have them matter. Twinned is the 'best' simply because it always HAS a use. Even if that use is just hitting two foes at once with a firebolt. Yet this is our major class feature and something SO limited we only have 4 at level 17 (which only a very few campaigns reach) and 3 at level 10 (which is still kinda high). No wonder everyone takes twinned and quickened. They're the only ones guaranteed to have an actual use. Obviously something like heightened is still useful, but the fact is most meta is stuck firmly in the 'situational' category.
I feel the best way to fix it would be to first increase where they can draw spells from. It feels like they're limited to mainly wizard spells, so why not give them a few from other classes to pick from as well? I'm not saying they need to have the full druid spell list, but surely it couldn't hurt to be able to tap into a few of those spells (why CAN'T sorcs cast find familiar anyways? Or am I just missing it entirely?) Secondly would be to increase their meta-magic options by at least one right from the get-go. You could even limit which meta's that third one is and it would still be very helpful. Third, I think sorcs need a cost reduction on turning points into spell slots. You can make it a passive ability as they level up; but it feels irritating that I can never get a discount on a level 1 spell slot even if I'm a level 20. Fourth, a few more meta's that are always 'useful' would be nice (like one that's twinned, but distinctly cheaper, but only works for non-damaging spells). Finally, a way to restore sorc points in combat would go a long way towards closing the gap. Not sure WHAT exactly since a lot of ways could be abused, but it really sucks to have to lose a spell slot to refill my points.
Some of the issue I find with Sorcerer is they over weighed metamagic as a feature while completely ignoring they took away the major advantage spells known classes have when they made spells prepared classes less vancian.
Honestly, I think the best fix, beyond just giving us more damn spells known, is moving the class to a pool of spell points instead of spell slots and sorcery points. Just give us one lump pot of points like a mana pool, and then let that power all spellcasting and metamagic. If metamagic is supposed to be the defining feature of the class, it needs to be built in innately, and not some clunky mechanic to make it fit like converting.
Literally just let it be "You have X amount of points. Each spell level is one point, and each metamagic has a specific point cost." It would make everything so much easier and fluid, not to mention allowing for a true versatility the class is striving for but missing the mark on.
But then couldn't you just spam high-level spells effectively endlessly? Or, alternatively, be so limited in your casts that you're basically a warlock without the invocations?
I'm not sure I buy it.
Sorcers who take a crap subclass get the fewest spells known, but a wise subclass selection fixes that, and lets you pull off of other class spell tables, either the cleric table with divine soul or wizard or warlock table with abberant mind or clockwork. Being able to pick up spells off another list at level up is pretty unique and it makes some of those Warlock and Wizard only spells not really Warlock and Wizard only. The only other class that does that is Bard and it is at a much higher level and with fewer spells.
Also their limited spells known is heavily offset by both having the largest number of cantrips and the largest number of slots (considering you can trade SPs for slots). At low and mid levels Sorcerers are going to be casting spells more than their counterparts and typically have far more utility in terms of cantrips.
As far as components, they have an arcane focus, which fills that thematic niche pretty effectively I think.
Finally sorcerers do have some unique spells - Chaos Bolt and Flame Blade are both signature sorcerer spells.
I think the cleric list may actually be sort of a drawback. You've already got a lot vying for those valuable spots and now you have to stack cleric spells on top of that. Especially if your party expects you to go into a healing/support roll. You end up kind of being a squishy cleric/white mage. Not as bad as Wild Magic gets it, for sure, but not as huge an advantage as some people probably think. It's like trying to eat two 30" sandwiches at the same time. You're already going to be more than stuffed with the first one to the point you're sick and/or have to put some aside, and now you are going to cram a second one down with it? Maybe it's still a positive but I don't think it's as huge a one as some people think. Mixing and mashing two spell lists not intended to work together and having to take the 'best' from each of them can leave you underperforming in either role.
Yes, both of those things become options. However, it's one or the other. These options are still highly resource limited, but the ability to adjust tactics as needed is the definition of versatility the sorcerer class if meant to embody. So what if the sorcerer uses all their resources on a few fireballs and then has nothing left but cantrips the rest of the day? Why is that an issue?
As someone playing a support based divine soul, I could not disagree more. The class features of sorcerer work very well with cleric spells for the purposes of support. If you're wanting to be a blaster, divine soul isnt the right option, but that doesn't mean its ALWAYS a bad option.