Twinned spell metamagic and chromatic orb

Based on 2024 PHB rules, what is the applicability of twinned spell metamagic to chromatic orb?  I have read some discourse on the topic and have my own perspective (no) but am interested in others' thoughts and their rationale.    

In the 2024 rules you cannot twin it anymore. 

There are like 20 spells you can twin. And no I do not think chromatic orb is not one of them. It has to specify an additional target when you up cast it.  The leap is not an additional target, imo.

The new twin with its cut rate costs is powerful if you are learning those spells, its just kind of boring. I wish it also worked with spells with additional attacks when you upcast them, like magic missile. It wouldn't add that many spells but it would expand its usefulness past crowd control and a couple utility spells.

I could see this go either way as updating the spell does in fact open the possibility of one more target but you would still have to get a pair on the dice and make your attack roll.

Per the 2024 rules, Chromatic Orb is not eligible for Twinned Spell. 

Also, I believe the 2024 rules for Chromatic Orb would disqualify it from Twinned Spell defined by the 2014 rules. 

Twinned Spell has two criteria for eligibility:

1) Can it be up cast? 

Chromatic Orb - Yes.

2) Does up casting the Spell enable the spell to target an additional target? 

Chromium Orb - Yes. 

Can you Twin Spell Chromatic Orb? Of course you can. 

Does Twin Spell Chromatic Orb allow me to cast 2 Chromatic Orbs? No. All Twinned Spell allows you to do is up cast the spell using a sorcery point instead of a higher level spell slot. So Twin Spell a 1st level Chromatic Orb turns it into a 2nd level Chromatic Orb and so on. 

Is this Balanced? Yes. An up cast Hold Person is way stronger than an upcast Chromatic Orb. 

According to the rules Chromatic Orb cannot be upcast. I'm surprised how many voted yes. Let's go over the wording of the metamagic and the spell:

Twinned Spell

When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell's effective level by 1.

Chromatic Orb

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 1. The orb can leap a maximum number of times equal to the level of the slot expended, and a creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell.

It doesn't state anywhere in Chromatic Orb that it can target an additional creature using a higher-level slot. It increases the amount of times it can leap.

Spells affected by Twinned Spell have a very specific wording, like Charm Person

Charm Person

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You can target one additional creature for each spell slot level above 1.

This is the trigger for Twinned Spell, that Chromatic Orb doesn't have. The wording of Twinned Spell and the spells it can affect is very clear.  Thematically, Twinned Spell metamagic makes a second casting of a spell that targets one creature, only this time it hits two creatures.

Other examples:

Etherealness cannot be Twinned, despite providing additional targets when upcast. Since the wording of Twinned Spell asks for a very specific trigger

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You can target up to three willing creatures (including yourself) for each spell slot level above 7. The creatures must be within 10 feet of you when you cast the spell.

Chain Lightning cannot be twinned either, despite causing extra bolts to leap, again, it's not the trigger that Twinned Spell uses

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. One additional bolt leaps from the first target to another target for each spell slot level above 6.

Scorching Ray cannot be twinned despite creating extra rays when upcast.

Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. You create one additional ray for each spell slot level above 2.

Sorcerer Spells with the specific wording required are:

Hold Monster

Charm Monster

Banishment

Fly

Spider Climb

Invisibility

Hold Person

Enhance Ability

Blindness/Deafness

Charm Person

Hint: You choose all the targets when you cast the spell... bounces can't bounce back, you choose the path, which enemy reactions can interfere with, when you cast the spell... you are choosing Target A, Target B, Target C, etc, because they have to be within a certain distance of one another, you aren't waiting to see if Target A goes down to decide if the orb will retarget A or move on to maybe target D instead, you pick the path, then roll the first attack, if it hits you roll the damage and check if it bounces to target B (who was already selected, because Target B is within range), Target B then can potentially use a reaction to teleport out of range, close to Target A, to a different spot with partial or full cover, and then you roll you attack on Target B if they are still a valid target in range (if not, the spells bounce fizzles and no other target is hit) and see if you hit Target B (cover could increase the DC, moving to a different point could take them too far from Target C while still being in range of Target A) and then if you hit you roll damage to see if the spell bounces again (if Target C is still a valid target, you can't have it bounce back to A even if A is still up).

This is the mistake being made... you ARE choosing an added target from the beginning, you just don't know if the spell will be strong enough to reach them... the spell does only target each target once and is not an AOE spell... the spell does increase the number of targets when it is upcast... There is only one instance where Chromatic Orb can't be Twinned Spelled (When the number of valid targets exceeds the spell slot +2... this is because you always can bounce the spell slot number of times, and the metamagic allows 1 added target for bouncing to; however if you have a lower level spell slot, you can save one of your higher ones for the cost of a Sorcerer Point), so you can't use the metamagic if there aren't at least 3 targets (Main Target, Target B for the first level spell slot, and Target C for the Sorcerer Point).

Quote from TrueGeminiDragon >>

Hint: You choose all the targets when you cast the spell... bounces can't bounce back, you choose the path, which enemy reactions can interfere with, when you cast the spell... you are choosing Target A, Target B, Target C, etc, because they have to be within a certain distance of one another, you aren't waiting to see if Target A goes down to decide if the orb will retarget A or move on to maybe target D instead, you pick the path, then roll the first attack, if it hits you roll the damage and check if it bounces to target B (who was already selected, because Target B is within range), Target B then can potentially use a reaction to teleport out of range, close to Target A, to a different spot with partial or full cover, and then you roll you attack on Target B if they are still a valid target in range (if not, the spells bounce fizzles and no other target is hit) and see if you hit Target B (cover could increase the DC, moving to a different point could take them too far from Target C while still being in range of Target A) and then if you hit you roll damage to see if the spell bounces again (if Target C is still a valid target, you can't have it bounce back to A even if A is still up).

This is the mistake being made... you ARE choosing an added target from the beginning, you just don't know if the spell will be strong enough to reach them... the spell does only target each target once and is not an AOE spell... the spell does increase the number of targets when it is upcast... There is only one instance where Chromatic Orb can't be Twinned Spelled (When the number of valid targets exceeds the spell slot +2... this is because you always can bounce the spell slot number of times, and the metamagic allows 1 added target for bouncing to; however if you have a lower level spell slot, you can save one of your higher ones for the cost of a Sorcerer Point), so you can't use the metamagic if there aren't at least 3 targets (Main Target, Target B for the first level spell slot, and Target C for the Sorcerer Point).

 While I think this is true for Chain Lightning, I don't think it's as obviously true for Chromatic Orb. In general, you should be applying the effects of the spell in the order they appear in the spell's description. That means you roll damage before choosing the other targets and only choose those targets if you roll doubles+.

I reject the 'pick the path first' requirement - it just bounces to the next available target in range.  People are welcome to play it how they like but that is not for me nor is it in the definition.

The spell wording says "can leap" and "can be targeted" which indiates that leaping is a targeting action. If a leap is not indicative of targeting then the orb can leap right back to the same creature which was first hit (i.e. it "leaps" into the air and falls right back down to hit again).

After typing all that i went back to the description which contains this wording "...the orb leaps to a different target of your choice within 30 feet of the target. Make an attack roll against the new target..."

leaps to...target...target - seals it for me

Chromatic orb can be upcast to target (i.e. leap to) an additional creature BUT that is not true for upcasting from 1 to 2 because it can still only target 2 at most. Therefore, twinning level 1 to level 2 = no. Twinning level 2 (or above) to make it a level higher and attempt to hit more than 2 targets = yes.
The dice increase is icing.

It is probably not what was intended but I would rule it this way because it is a lot more fun than saying "no". The rule of cool.

[edit - i would allow twinning at 1 as well but instruct the player to read the description and ask how many times they are expecting it to bounce. It is their SP to burn for an increased chance to still only hit 2...shrug]

It is either this or what @tehvilinaty stated.  I see no other logical way to read it.

Twinned Spell.  Cost: 1 Sorcery Point.  When you cast a spell, such as Charm Person, that can be cast with a higher-level spell slot to target an additional creature, you can spend 1 Sorcery Point to increase the spell’s effective level by 1.

Chromatic orb: ...   If you roll the same number on two or more of the d8s, the orb leaps to a different target of your choice within 30 feet of the target. Make an attack roll against the new target, and make a new damage roll. The orb can’t leap again unless you cast the spell with a level 2+ spell slot. ... Using a Higher-Level Spell Slot. The damage increases by 1d8 for each spell slot level above 1. The orb can leap a maximum number of times equal to the level of the slot expended, and a creature can be targeted only once by each casting of this spell.

So chromatic orb cant leap at level 1. At level 2+ it can leap. Leap is possible when you roll the same values of damage dice. When it leaps, you make an attack roll.

Twinned Spell requires that the spell being twinned, that casting that spell at a higher level allows it to target an additional creature.

Seems to satisfy all the requirements. 

I dont understand why people are getting hung up on the word "target". Target is clearly defined in phb:

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/rules-glossary#Target

"A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon."

The only requirement to be a "target" that applies to twinning chromatic orb is that you use an attack roll to determine if you hit a target the spell leaps to. So its a target.

Nothing in the definiton of "target" says you have to pick your targets at the beginning of your turn or something.

I think you even might be able to twin magic missile because higher level means more beams and that means you can target additional.creatures, and target only requires the target "recieve the effect of a spell".

Quote from TrueGeminiDragon >>

Hint: You choose all the targets when you cast the spell... 

https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/phb-2024/rules-glossary#Target

"A target is the creature or object targeted by an attack roll, forced to make a saving throw by an effect, or selected to receive the effects of a spell or another phenomenon."

Nothing in that definition requires the target be chosen when the spell is cast. 

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

 

So chromatic orb cant leap at level 1. At level 2+ it can leap. Leap is possible when you roll the same values of damage dice. When it leaps, you make an attack roll. 

Just for the record, Chromatic Orb absolutely can leap at level 1; there's nothing in it that says it can't. It can't leap more than once at level 1.

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

 

So chromatic orb cant leap at level 1. At level 2+ it can leap. Leap is possible when you roll the same values of damage dice. When it leaps, you make an attack roll. 

Just for the record, Chromatic Orb absolutely can leap at level 1; there's nothing in it that says it can't. It can't leap more than once at level 1.

Agreed it leaps on match at 1 but it is odd that it does not leap up to level +1 because upcast to 2 only grants higher chance of a leap over level 1.

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

I think you even might be able to twin magic missile because higher level means more beams and that means you can target additional.creatures, and target only requires the target "recieve the effect of a spell".

 not taking the bait...this thread is about the orb...[visibly resisting typing]...

Quote from sdyvn >>

Quote from wagnarokkr >>

Quote from SunIsGettingRealLow96589 >>

 

So chromatic orb cant leap at level 1. At level 2+ it can leap. Leap is possible when you roll the same values of damage dice. When it leaps, you make an attack roll. 

Just for the record, Chromatic Orb absolutely can leap at level 1; there's nothing in it that says it can't. It can't leap more than once at level 1.

Agreed it leaps on match at 1 but it is odd that it does not leap up to level +1 because upcast to 2 only grants higher chance of a leap over level 1.

Not sure I really follow what you're saying here. Upcasting to level 2 both increases the chance of a leap (because of the additional damage die) and the number of times it can leap (because it can now leap up to 2 times instead of only 1).

I hope this helps for the breakdown,  Mind you that is Potential Average to all the targets combined.

This is from https://dungeonmister.com/guides/chromatic-orb-in-dnd-2024/

Quote from Deathmvp >>

This is from https://dungeonmister.com/guides/chromatic-orb-in-dnd-2024/

Oddly enough, it's actually from a lot closer to home; the author of that post scraped all of the data from this thread right here on D&D Beyond. We've come full circle.

It is a bit misleading, its like calculating the potential damage of fireball by saying it hit 20 people and at 7th level each one did 42 damage, giving a save chance of 40% and saying potential average damage of 672. It did 42 to a bunch of people. I mean fine if you want to look at it that way but i think most people will just think i did 42 to more than one person. 

Though odds are even with this spell it will miss once before it reaches the max leaps when you are upcasting it high enough. But it will also have some crits, still overall its kind of cool at 7th level it will hit a group for 40ish damage. fun, but you almost always will have a better use of a 7th level spell slot.