From a lore perspective, Constitution makes sense, as it is the sorcerer's gentetics not their charming personality, that is inherentlich magical. But from a balacing perspective, I don't think we will see a Character with Consitution as main stat any time soon. Constitution is a stat, no character can ignore, everyone profits from it, so not only would the character have singular focus on one stat at character creation, multiclassing would also be much easier. Everybody needs Constitution after all.
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From a lore perspective, Constitution makes sense, as it is the sorcerer's gentetics not their charming personality, that is inherentlich magical.
The problem is: sorcery isn't always tied to genetics. In most cases it has nothing to do with genes. It's also foolish to assume genetics work the same way in D&D anyway.
The sorcerous origin all describe ways you be born a sorcerer - or to become one after birth. Not all sorcerers are born as such - you can become one later. So saying it's genetics and so must be constitution is a demonstrably false premise. In fact, some origins allow for it to have absolutely nothing to do with the "body" at all.
Your other problem is thinking that charisma is personality. It's not. At least not entirely. Personality is more like a sub-attribute of Charisma. Charisma is about presence and innate power. It is the idea one holds a power to influence the world by presence and intent alone. And... that's not a D&D thing. It's the real life meaning. The word Charisma originally meant a personal with innate magical quality - a source of power. The idea of it tying to personality was an extension of that, for those with such influential gifts were best to persuade, intimidate and lead. When we later dropped the idea of some having innate magic we kept the word of charisma and leaned more heavily into the concept of charm and presence.
Hitler is an example. An absolutely terrible person - an atrocious personality. Yet, able to persuade a nation to believe as him and commit terrible acts, despite his disgusting personality. He had presence and was charismatic - people followed because he could make them believe, even if they didn't like him. Charisma and Personality arenot the same thing.
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This is why Charisma was chosen and makes sense. Because it fits the real world definition. Because it fits the D&D concept of sorcery (which may not involve the actual body at all).
An interesting proposal, WhiskeyJack8044; I could be down for Sorcerers going Constitution instead of Charisma.
We have enough people running off of Charisma and the whole thing with Sorcerers is it's suppose to be based on the idea that the magic is in you - be it from birth DNA, fairies magically altering your DNA, or someone experimenting on you to change your DNA with magic (Scarlet Witch example). If Constitution is body based then DNA would fall into that category. I know people will say it's unbalanced but like how really in the long run - is a +5 not a +5 no matter where you put it? The only difference is Con doesn't effect your Skills so you would lose that bonus.
Con being the spellcasting ability for a class would give it something to do more than just be the HP (and AC if you're a Barbarian) booster and really when a Sorcerer has a d6 as the hit die how many more HP points can they really get to make it potentially unfair. You can only ever go to 20 as a base game stat anyways unless you get magical items or increases but everyone has the ability to get them so again how is it unfair? A max roll of 6 on the d6 plus 5 for Con is the same 11 additional points as a Fighter would get with a roll of 6 on the d10 and having a plus 5 to Con. If someone has Tough and your Sorcerer doesn't then that's +2 they get that you don't so they might get more and yeah it's not as busted I think as some people feel.
Maybe if you're playing by numbers rule the adventure it would matter more because of some compounding numbers in the background so at a point it can break an encounter but given most play the game for story I don't see how changing it is that big of a deal.
"Again, I'm an advocate for getting rid of CON as ability score in the first place. It serves absolutely nothing other than having less points left to spend on skills you'd actively use. Your health is already covered by every class having specific hit dice and if that's too unreliable then changing it to hit dice + PB (proficiency bonus) per level up or similar would be the easiest thing in the world. CON saves could easily changed to work off on level or PB or whatever as well. Where else do you need CON? Nowhere. No skillcheck or such uses CON. You only put points into it because you are kinda forced to do so if you want to play your character for long."
You make some fair points about Con sfPanzer, but while it is a mechanic why not give it more to do?
Also getting rid of Con saves would effect drinking game contests and people do love their tavern games, ha.
I accidentally ran into this debate while researching something else about Sorcerers. I think this is the most detailed and convincing case I've see for Con-based Sorcery. It's more thematic, it fits with all the PHB language much better, it makes Sorcerers more distinctive from other casters, it evens out their power level with other casters, and you can easily take care of martial multiclass shenanigans by requiring Con 13 Cha 13 to multiclass into Sorcerer.
I also liked what someone else said about using Cha to determine Sorcery Points. You could have Sorcery Points = your level as now, then add your Cha bonus (minimum +0) at level 3, when you get Metamagic. Explain that Metamagic is about putting your personality, your individual flair, into your spellcasting.
It does make the SP progression stutter around a bit, but it mainly favors having more SP at early levels, and it caps out your max at 25 (more likely 23 or 24), not a huge difference from now. But enough to incentivize bumping Cha to at least 12-16. You could also tweak the formula around to cap it SP at 20 if you didn’t want to add more power, or maybe let them spend two Hit Dice during a short rest to recover Cha modifier SP, once per long rest.
Edit:
OR: you gain a number of Metamagic features equal to your Cha modifier (minimum 1). You could still dump Cha, but you’d take a significant loss compared to current MM progression unless you start with 14, which you’d want to get to 16 or 18 (or 20!) by endgame.
Sorcerer and Charisma make perfect sense to me. Their force of will shapes reality itself, represented by their spellcasting. Superb.
The class that should us Constitution for their spellcasting stat is Warlocks.
It isn't their magic. They're channeling the power of some superior entity that may or may not really care about them or be able to channel power very safely. How physically durable the warlock is should be the limiting factor for how much of that power can be channeled through them.
Warlock and Charisma are a bad fit. The guy who is socially charming and gets his way in life isn't the guy most desperate for unearned power. You want the guy who isn't strong, isn't fast, isn't smart or wise. You want the guy who is nit outshining his peers but who deep down thinks he should be. You want the guy who knows he will survive the pact. One way or another, like he has endured all the other harsh realities life has thrown at him.
I accidentally ran into this debate while researching something else about Sorcerers. I think this is the most detailed and convincing case I've see for Con-based Sorcery. It's more thematic, it fits with all the PHB language much better, it makes Sorcerers more distinctive from other casters, it evens out their power level with other casters, and you can easily take care of martial multiclass shenanigans by requiring Con 13 Cha 13 to multiclass into Sorcerer.
I also liked what someone else said about using Cha to determine Sorcery Points. You could have Sorcery Points = your level as now, then add your Cha bonus (minimum +0) at level 3, when you get Metamagic. Explain that Metamagic is about putting your personality, your individual flair, into your spellcasting.
It does make the SP progression stutter around a bit, but it mainly favors having more SP at early levels, and it caps out your max at 25 (more likely 23 or 24), not a huge difference from now. But enough to incentivize bumping Cha to at least 12-16. You could also tweak the formula around to cap it SP at 20 if you didn’t want to add more power, or maybe let them spend two Hit Dice during a short rest to recover Cha modifier SP, once per long rest.
Edit:
OR: you gain a number of Metamagic features equal to your Cha modifier (minimum 1). You could still dump Cha, but you’d take a significant loss compared to current MM progression unless you start with 14, which you’d want to get to 16 or 18 (or 20!) by endgame.
I like the metamagic idea as a balance to keep Charisma a part of it.
3rd level:either You have 1+charisma mod metamagic options. Get another at 10th and 17th level. Or You have metamagic options equal to your Charisma modifier. Gain an additional one at 10th and 17th level.
Either one of those would keep a requirement for charisma on the sorcerer even if their spellcasting ability was swapped to con.
From a lore perspective, Constitution makes sense, as it is the sorcerer's gentetics not their charming personality, that is inherentlich magical. But from a balacing perspective, I don't think we will see a Character with Consitution as main stat any time soon. Constitution is a stat, no character can ignore, everyone profits from it, so not only would the character have singular focus on one stat at character creation, multiclassing would also be much easier. Everybody needs Constitution after all.
+ Instaboot to murderhobos + I don't watch Critical Role, and no, I really shouldn't either +
The problem is: sorcery isn't always tied to genetics. In most cases it has nothing to do with genes. It's also foolish to assume genetics work the same way in D&D anyway.
The sorcerous origin all describe ways you be born a sorcerer - or to become one after birth. Not all sorcerers are born as such - you can become one later. So saying it's genetics and so must be constitution is a demonstrably false premise. In fact, some origins allow for it to have absolutely nothing to do with the "body" at all.
Your other problem is thinking that charisma is personality. It's not. At least not entirely. Personality is more like a sub-attribute of Charisma. Charisma is about presence and innate power. It is the idea one holds a power to influence the world by presence and intent alone. And... that's not a D&D thing. It's the real life meaning. The word Charisma originally meant a personal with innate magical quality - a source of power. The idea of it tying to personality was an extension of that, for those with such influential gifts were best to persuade, intimidate and lead. When we later dropped the idea of some having innate magic we kept the word of charisma and leaned more heavily into the concept of charm and presence.
Hitler is an example. An absolutely terrible person - an atrocious personality. Yet, able to persuade a nation to believe as him and commit terrible acts, despite his disgusting personality. He had presence and was charismatic - people followed because he could make them believe, even if they didn't like him. Charisma and Personality are not the same thing.
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This is why Charisma was chosen and makes sense. Because it fits the real world definition. Because it fits the D&D concept of sorcery (which may not involve the actual body at all).
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If you really want to tie Con to Sorcerer, it should be so you get extra sorc points from the Con modifier.
An interesting proposal, WhiskeyJack8044; I could be down for Sorcerers going Constitution instead of Charisma.
We have enough people running off of Charisma and the whole thing with Sorcerers is it's suppose to be based on the idea that the magic is in you - be it from birth DNA, fairies magically altering your DNA, or someone experimenting on you to change your DNA with magic (Scarlet Witch example). If Constitution is body based then DNA would fall into that category. I know people will say it's unbalanced but like how really in the long run - is a +5 not a +5 no matter where you put it? The only difference is Con doesn't effect your Skills so you would lose that bonus.
Con being the spellcasting ability for a class would give it something to do more than just be the HP (and AC if you're a Barbarian) booster and really when a Sorcerer has a d6 as the hit die how many more HP points can they really get to make it potentially unfair. You can only ever go to 20 as a base game stat anyways unless you get magical items or increases but everyone has the ability to get them so again how is it unfair? A max roll of 6 on the d6 plus 5 for Con is the same 11 additional points as a Fighter would get with a roll of 6 on the d10 and having a plus 5 to Con. If someone has Tough and your Sorcerer doesn't then that's +2 they get that you don't so they might get more and yeah it's not as busted I think as some people feel.
Maybe if you're playing by numbers rule the adventure it would matter more because of some compounding numbers in the background so at a point it can break an encounter but given most play the game for story I don't see how changing it is that big of a deal.
"Again, I'm an advocate for getting rid of CON as ability score in the first place. It serves absolutely nothing other than having less points left to spend on skills you'd actively use. Your health is already covered by every class having specific hit dice and if that's too unreliable then changing it to hit dice + PB (proficiency bonus) per level up or similar would be the easiest thing in the world. CON saves could easily changed to work off on level or PB or whatever as well. Where else do you need CON? Nowhere. No skillcheck or such uses CON. You only put points into it because you are kinda forced to do so if you want to play your character for long."
You make some fair points about Con sfPanzer, but while it is a mechanic why not give it more to do?
Also getting rid of Con saves would effect drinking game contests and people do love their tavern games, ha.
I accidentally ran into this debate while researching something else about Sorcerers. I think this is the most detailed and convincing case I've see for Con-based Sorcery. It's more thematic, it fits with all the PHB language much better, it makes Sorcerers more distinctive from other casters, it evens out their power level with other casters, and you can easily take care of martial multiclass shenanigans by requiring Con 13 Cha 13 to multiclass into Sorcerer.
I also liked what someone else said about using Cha to determine Sorcery Points. You could have Sorcery Points = your level as now, then add your Cha bonus (minimum +0) at level 3, when you get Metamagic. Explain that Metamagic is about putting your personality, your individual flair, into your spellcasting.
It does make the SP progression stutter around a bit, but it mainly favors having more SP at early levels, and it caps out your max at 25 (more likely 23 or 24), not a huge difference from now. But enough to incentivize bumping Cha to at least 12-16. You could also tweak the formula around to cap it SP at 20 if you didn’t want to add more power, or maybe let them spend two Hit Dice during a short rest to recover Cha modifier SP, once per long rest.
Edit:
OR: you gain a number of Metamagic features equal to your Cha modifier (minimum 1). You could still dump Cha, but you’d take a significant loss compared to current MM progression unless you start with 14, which you’d want to get to 16 or 18 (or 20!) by endgame.
Sorcerer and Charisma make perfect sense to me. Their force of will shapes reality itself, represented by their spellcasting. Superb.
The class that should us Constitution for their spellcasting stat is Warlocks.
It isn't their magic. They're channeling the power of some superior entity that may or may not really care about them or be able to channel power very safely. How physically durable the warlock is should be the limiting factor for how much of that power can be channeled through them.
Warlock and Charisma are a bad fit. The guy who is socially charming and gets his way in life isn't the guy most desperate for unearned power. You want the guy who isn't strong, isn't fast, isn't smart or wise. You want the guy who is nit outshining his peers but who deep down thinks he should be. You want the guy who knows he will survive the pact. One way or another, like he has endured all the other harsh realities life has thrown at him.
You want a dude with high Constitution.
I got quotes!
I like the metamagic idea as a balance to keep Charisma a part of it.
3rd level:either
You have 1+charisma mod metamagic options. Get another at 10th and 17th level.
Or
You have metamagic options equal to your Charisma modifier. Gain an additional one at 10th and 17th level.
Either one of those would keep a requirement for charisma on the sorcerer even if their spellcasting ability was swapped to con.