First off, doing so would mean they'd need to only pour points into one stat (CON) for their HP, Concentration saves, offensive power, and generally everything else essential to the class. It would make them bonkers OP especially since they could basically pick whatever stat they wanted for their secondary without a concern for balance. The only thing a sorc would even care about is DEX for the extra AC and even then that's pretty optional and they'd be free to do whatever they wanted. Plus pretty much every melee class would salivate over the chance to be able to gain access to spell-casting by investing in a stat that is always useful and they'd want to invest in anyways.
Secondly, they gain their power through their bloodline... but that in no way means that they're particularly durable. That would be like saying that a fifth generation Wizard would have a high CON score because 'the magic is in his blood' or something. It just doesn't work like that.
That would be like saying that a fifth generation Wizard would have a high CON score because 'the magic is in his blood' or something. It just doesn't work like that.
You're right it doesn't work like that. Wizards don't have the magic in their blood nor do they hand it down to their children lol
Apart from your terrible comparison, I agree it would create way more issues than it'd solve.
Again, I'm an advocate for getting rid of CON as ability score in the first place. It serves absolutely nothing other than having less points left to spend on skills you'd actively use. Your health is already covered by every class having specific hit dice and if that's too unreliable then changing it to hit dice + PB per level up or similar would be the easiest thing in the world. CON saves could easily changed to work off on level or PB or whatever as well. Where else do you need CON? Nowhere. No skillcheck or such uses CON. You only put points into it because you are kinda forced to do so if you want to play your character for long.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
I think that makes a lot more sense, and it mitigates so many classes depending on Charisma. Keep in mind it is also a buff to have your main spell stat also be the one that increases your hit points, con saves and concentration checks.
I would pump Con first, then Dex under those rules. Mage Armor + 18 Con and 16 Dex and your hit points are similar to a Fighter, you have 16 AC (not great but respectable), and your main casting stat is satisfied. Sorcerers have Con save proficiency to boot.
Again, I'm an advocate for getting rid of CON as ability score in the first place. It serves absolutely nothing other than having less points left to spend on skills you'd actively use. Your health is already covered by every class having specific hit dice and if that's too unreliable then changing it to hit dice + PB per level up or similar would be the easiest thing in the world. CON saves could easily changed to work off on level or PB or whatever as well. Where else do you need CON? Nowhere. No skillcheck or such uses CON. You only put points into it because you are kinda forced to do so if you want to play your character for long.
I agree with your central thesis, but will point out that while no skill proficiencies use CON in the normal rules, there are still opportunities to require CON checks (e.g., asking for an Athletics(CON) check to do a forced march) and CON saves are very common - especially for spellcaster Concentration checks. Part of the problem is this edition's difficulty separating "checks" from "saves", where they probably should have just condensed them into one thing.
I think they could do a better job of integrating and balancing the abilities, but D&D will never get rid of CON because it was in the original game and the whole thing largely runs on milking nostalgia at this point.
Again, I'm an advocate for getting rid of CON as ability score in the first place. It serves absolutely nothing other than having less points left to spend on skills you'd actively use. Your health is already covered by every class having specific hit dice and if that's too unreliable then changing it to hit dice + PB per level up or similar would be the easiest thing in the world. CON saves could easily changed to work off on level or PB or whatever as well. Where else do you need CON? Nowhere. No skillcheck or such uses CON. You only put points into it because you are kinda forced to do so if you want to play your character for long.
I agree with your central thesis, but will point out that while no skill proficiencies use CON in the normal rules, there are still opportunities to require CON checks (e.g., asking for an Athletics(CON) check to do a forced march) and CON saves are very common - especially for spellcaster Concentration checks. Part of the problem is this edition's difficulty separating "checks" from "saves", where they probably should have just condensed them into one thing.
I think they could do a better job of integrating and balancing the abilities, but D&D will never get rid of CON because it was in the original game and the whole thing largely runs on milking nostalgia at this point.
Yeah as I said you could make CON saves happen differently. No need to key it off of an ability score, really. Good point about Athletics(CON), I didn't think much about those, but it was more of a rant than a complete analysis anyway. I'm sure one could come up with a way to do those without a CON ability score too.
Also agreed on your conclusion. No way they're going to get rid of it unfortunately. People would start a shitstorm before even trying to think about it properly first.
I disagree. I do feel the CON score provides a good way to help vary up characters. My issue is more of CON not doing MORE/being more dynamic. As-is it determines HP, CON saves, and concentration.... but that's about it. Abilities that make enemies make CON saves are near-useless cause they always have such stacked amounts while players can never breach a +5 without outside boosts. It impacts no skills (even stuff like athletics) and mainly focuses on HP. I want it to do more like, say, I dunno, you can regain a number of sorc points equal to your CON on a short rest or something? Or maybe a penalty on repeated skill checks that don't use your primary stat (CHA for sorcs, but, say, STR for a barb or death saves for a WIZ) that gets mitigated/negated with a high enough CON? Something to make it feel less like 'you're putting stats here just because you need the HP/save and there's no other purpose for the stat'.
I would overall say yes to constitution as the primary casting stat for sorcerer, but not for many of the things that people believe.
Thematically makes sense, your magic is inborn from a physical mutation, and how strong your body overall is likely proportional to the strength of the mutation, because I think of this mutation feeds from your body to fuel the powers it grants. This feeding is why you have a small hit die, because a vast portion of your vitality is directed at fueling your power.
Charisma is honestly a good stat for warlocks and clerics, because clerics are begging their god for assistance in time of need, and warlocks are bargaining with eldritch beings to teach them power, though the arguement is that intelligence could also work because you have to be very very cunning to get an eldritch being to work with you and to properly learn the things they teach, good int is needed. But, charisma doesnt do it for sorcerers... they arent charming the universe with the beauty of their inborn mutation to cast magic, that just makes no sense. Wisdom is better for druids due to their commitment to nature and their perception of its cycles and flow, and honestly its better on paladins because it symbolizes their courage and unwavering commitment to their oath. Charisma is the ability to use your willpower to influence other creatures, which is why bards use it... because their music is literally played not for the audience, but for the universe itself to hear and dance to it (or certain creatures if you play a tricky enchant/illusion based bard). A mutation has no such attachment to charisma, it doesnt care how attractive you are.
In regard to this making the sorcerer more beefy, I believe this is fine and actually helps it compete better with the wizard as a straight class rather than as a multiclass dip. You are better at holding concentration, and standing up in combat and have more sustainability to the amount of spells that you throw out, that makes it more attractive. However, being full casters with no armor proficiencies, to have the AC to match your hp, beyond certain combos like mountain dwarf, you either have to multiclass which could hinder you depending on what you multiclass with, pick mage armor in your already limited spell choices, or take multiple feats. The draconic sorcerer is an abvious standout, however and would be very powerful with this, might need adjutsment to be more balanced with it. But this also begs the question, draconic sorcerer has always been more beefy than the wizard, has it been unbalanced? not at all. Also, thematically it makes sense, many sorcerer subclasses are descended from things like dragons and gods and other strong creatures that would make sense why you are tougher than the nerdy wizard that went to school.
And the last point we come to is multiclass combos. I believe that it is fine to be a multiclass combos, tbh. Because martials and casters have two very distinct playstyles that dont always mesh even if the casting stat is con.
For full-casters, the multiclass combo of a con sorcerer and another casting class does not come online until late game. Most full casters like bard (unless valor), druid, wizard, warlock (unless bladelock) and cleric (if not a melee cleric) tend to have lower constitutions, so it will be a gamble on whether you want to increase hp and sorcery, or increase your skills and effectiveness in your other class. Its not until very high levels when you have both maxed and are very powerful, but usually most characters have those maxed by that point anyhow, so its a non-issue. So basically, you are faced with the opportunity cost. So honestly sorcerer benefits more from dips into other casting classes, than other casting classes benefit from dipping into it.
For martials, this multiclass would be a great boon, but beyond very niche nova abilities like action surge or abilities that require significant investment like war magic, it isnt as effective because they are forced to choose between casting and smacking with their action economy. Barbarians who would find the most use of this combo would find themselves unable to do much with it unless they are out of rage or to cast preparatory buff spells which few actually need high con. It would be a great combo for a sorc fighter, but it would fall behind in terms that multiclassing a pure martial with a caster like a sorc slows down your progression in either fighting or casting and takes long to come online fully.
Lastly, this would honestly make the sorlock combo less efficient, as it would force them again into the opportunity cost of being more vital and sorcerous or better at being charming and devious and your warlock spells and abilities like the dreaded eldritch blast. It also kinda cucks the sorcadin a bit, because certain abilities like aura of protection might not be as effective if you are more focused on buffing your con, and your paladin spells, particularly some of your healings and saving throw channel divinities or debuff spells are much less useful.
And finally, classes that rely heavily on dex for AC and attacks will find themselves struggling a bit more to boost their con and their dex, unless they have no other primary stats besides con and dex, which still limits them to not buffing their con till the later game which few player or characters tend to reach.
Obviously with serious min-maxing, certain niche but broken subclass/race combos, and just very high rolled stats it can be overpowered, but thats honestly the same issue with any class.
So overall, the movement to a con based casting state would honestly fix many of the issues that arise in broken multiclass combos and actually make the sorcerer more attractive to play as a singular class overall, because now they have a niche they fill, the slightly harder to drop endurant caster that has fewer spells but can cast them more often and flexibly with longer lasting concentration buffs.
These are my two cents, feel free to point out any falacies.
"Thematically makes sense, your magic is inborn from a physical mutation, and how strong your body overall is likely proportional to the strength of the mutation, because I think of this mutation feeds from your body to fuel the powers it grants. This feeding is why you have a small hit die, because a vast portion of your vitality is directed at fueling your power. "
This isn't always the case though. In many cases of sorcerous origin, it may have absolutely nothing to do with your blood or body. This is why it's Charisma in the first place.
Frankly I find the role of charisma ludicrous and dumb. I do not know why dnd decided to make charisma synonymous with will power, especially when anything approaching a will save is handled via wisdom.
Edit: to clarify I am not insulting you Cyb3rM1nd, I am insulting the horrid decision to make charisma represent will.
In addition I feel like channelling magic, be it from your blood or soul or even a link you have to another plane, out from you and into the wider world in a raw and innate way would make sense as constitution, at least more so then charisma.
Frankly I find the role of charisma ludicrous and dumb. I do not know why dnd decided to make charisma synonymous with will power, especially when anything approaching a will save is handled via wisdom.
Can you cite a source for charisma being considered "willpower"? This doesn't come up anywhere I've seen. From Using Ability Scores (PHB/Basic Rules): "Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality." Sometimes this 'force of personality' is seen simply as attractiveness or leadership skill; but in other cases it is a measure of exemplary or otherworldly quality. This latter definition is the connection with Sorcerers.
That said, Charisma is a casting stat for the same reason Int and Wis are casting stats for other classes - because if they weren't then they'd just be dump stats.
Frankly I find the role of charisma ludicrous and dumb. I do not know why dnd decided to make charisma synonymous with will power, especially when anything approaching a will save is handled via wisdom.
Can you cite a source for charisma being considered "willpower"? This doesn't come up anywhere I've seen. From Using Ability Scores (PHB/Basic Rules): "Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality." Sometimes this 'force of personality' is seen simply as attractiveness or leadership skill; but in other cases it is a measure of exemplary or otherworldly quality. This latter definition is the connection with Sorcerers.
That said, Charisma is a casting stat for the same reason Int and Wis are casting stats for other classes - because if they weren't then they'd just be dump stats.
You could argue having to make charisma saves against spells like zone of truth, banishment etc implies it being used for willpower as well. Just as general intelligence is split between INT and WIS, general willpower is split between WIS and CHA in the system.
I don't necessarily agree with your last conclusion though. They aren't casting stats to prevent them from being dump stats. Especially WIS and CHA goes a LONG way for out of combat utility (and are super important for saving throws in combat). The reason why they are used for casting is because they didn't want you to use the same ability score martials focus on for casting because it would make it too easy to double dip into both areas with just a single stat (let's ignore them releasing stuff like Hexblade and Battle Smith for a second because WotC is never consistent in anything they do, especially this long after the initial release of an edition) and using CON would offer a similar problem of being a somewhat high priority choice for any other class as well, be it martial or caster, not to mentioning it being an ability score purely used for defensive purposes so using it for offensive purposes as well is not a good design choice either.
I believe that a Sorcerer should use his Con as his casting stat AND that it should be balanced by having metamagic points be purchased from hit points the Sorcerer must take in damage to himself.
You could argue having to make charisma saves against spells like zone of truth, banishment etc implies it being used for willpower as well. Just as general intelligence is split between INT and WIS, general willpower is split between WIS and CHA in the system.
I am not sure that is willpower. I always saw these saves as "status", "fate" or "karma". It represents the status or powerful effect of charisma. People that are powerful can be charismatic because of their power and status alone.
Sorry it took a bit for me to get back to you. It turns out the Willpower thing which I loathe and which a bunch of people have used as an argument against changing the stat in the past is a hold over from 3.5. But I still don't see why Charisma makes sense.
An exemplary or otherworldly quality doesn't lend itself well to Charisma in my opinion, especially since that is an even more case by case thing then whether your magic is drawn from your body or something else.
In terms of mechanics, it wouldn't be balanced to use Constitution as you'd make the sorcerer class dependent upon a single attribute, so no way I see that happening. Plus Charisma is the same attribute used by Paladins and Warlocks, as well as tieflings, and fiends that have innate casting etc., so the precedent is for Charisma for that type of "innate" casting.
For thematics I don't see the problem with Charisma = willpower = casting ability, as having the raw power within yourself isn't enough, you still need to control it somehow, and that means focusing it with your mind, not flexing your guts real hard. Intelligence is more for learned/studied action, Wisdom I tend to think of as "experience" or "instinct", Charisma is either personality or willpower (or a mix of both) so it seems like the correct fit; it's about a person's ability to control what is within themselves. While that's something you might learn to do over time, it's the force of will that enables you to do it.
Plus I just think it fits Sorcerers well; your Wizards learn their spells from books, and has to study the detail to figure out their new tricks. A sorcerer bends their magic to their will, and shapes through that force of will, giving them their own flexibility by altering spells. I don't think Wizards succeeded on that theme as much as they could have (more Metamagics picks and options would help), but thematically this makes sense to me, so I think it's fine as is.
In terms of mechanics, it wouldn't be balanced to use Constitution as you'd make the sorcerer class dependent upon a single attribute, so no way I see that happening. Plus Charisma is the same attribute used by Paladins and Warlocks, as well as tieflings, and fiends that have innate casting etc., so the precedent is for Charisma for that type of "innate" casting.
Paladins and Warlocks (and possibly fiends) don't get their spell power from anything innate.
In terms of mechanics, it wouldn't be balanced to use Constitution as you'd make the sorcerer class dependent upon a single attribute, so no way I see that happening. Plus Charisma is the same attribute used by Paladins and Warlocks, as well as tieflings, and fiends that have innate casting etc., so the precedent is for Charisma for that type of "innate" casting.
Paladins and Warlocks (and possibly fiends) don't get their spell power from anything innate.
Paladins and Warlocks use CHA because it fits their stereotype of making people do what they want with speeches and such so you automatically are decently capable in persuasion and intimidation even without any proficiency, that's all. Warlocks used to be INT casters in the past as well.
In terms of mechanics, it wouldn't be balanced to use Constitution as you'd make the sorcerer class dependent upon a single attribute, so no way I see that happening. Plus Charisma is the same attribute used by Paladins and Warlocks, as well as tieflings, and fiends that have innate casting etc., so the precedent is for Charisma for that type of "innate" casting.
Paladins and Warlocks (and possibly fiends) don't get their spell power from anything innate.
Not my intended meaning; I was just grouping all the charisma casters together to show the sorcerer belongs among them not apart from them.
That said, paladin/warlock are arguably a flavour of innate in that I would say their deity/patron acts through them, compared to cleric/druid/ranger who more specifically call upon their deity/nature for their powers. It's an over-simplification but then so were various things in 5e.
I am cursed to return to this thread every couple of years to remind people that there are ways to motivate stat stratification. Dexterity and Wisdom are as important as Constitution. You could also tie the number of Meta magics know to your Charisma modifier etc.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
No.
First off, doing so would mean they'd need to only pour points into one stat (CON) for their HP, Concentration saves, offensive power, and generally everything else essential to the class. It would make them bonkers OP especially since they could basically pick whatever stat they wanted for their secondary without a concern for balance. The only thing a sorc would even care about is DEX for the extra AC and even then that's pretty optional and they'd be free to do whatever they wanted. Plus pretty much every melee class would salivate over the chance to be able to gain access to spell-casting by investing in a stat that is always useful and they'd want to invest in anyways.
Secondly, they gain their power through their bloodline... but that in no way means that they're particularly durable. That would be like saying that a fifth generation Wizard would have a high CON score because 'the magic is in his blood' or something. It just doesn't work like that.
You're right it doesn't work like that. Wizards don't have the magic in their blood nor do they hand it down to their children lol
Apart from your terrible comparison, I agree it would create way more issues than it'd solve.
Again, I'm an advocate for getting rid of CON as ability score in the first place. It serves absolutely nothing other than having less points left to spend on skills you'd actively use. Your health is already covered by every class having specific hit dice and if that's too unreliable then changing it to hit dice + PB per level up or similar would be the easiest thing in the world. CON saves could easily changed to work off on level or PB or whatever as well. Where else do you need CON? Nowhere. No skillcheck or such uses CON. You only put points into it because you are kinda forced to do so if you want to play your character for long.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
I think that makes a lot more sense, and it mitigates so many classes depending on Charisma. Keep in mind it is also a buff to have your main spell stat also be the one that increases your hit points, con saves and concentration checks.
I would pump Con first, then Dex under those rules. Mage Armor + 18 Con and 16 Dex and your hit points are similar to a Fighter, you have 16 AC (not great but respectable), and your main casting stat is satisfied. Sorcerers have Con save proficiency to boot.
I agree with your central thesis, but will point out that while no skill proficiencies use CON in the normal rules, there are still opportunities to require CON checks (e.g., asking for an Athletics(CON) check to do a forced march) and CON saves are very common - especially for spellcaster Concentration checks. Part of the problem is this edition's difficulty separating "checks" from "saves", where they probably should have just condensed them into one thing.
I think they could do a better job of integrating and balancing the abilities, but D&D will never get rid of CON because it was in the original game and the whole thing largely runs on milking nostalgia at this point.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
Yeah as I said you could make CON saves happen differently. No need to key it off of an ability score, really. Good point about Athletics(CON), I didn't think much about those, but it was more of a rant than a complete analysis anyway. I'm sure one could come up with a way to do those without a CON ability score too.
Also agreed on your conclusion. No way they're going to get rid of it unfortunately. People would start a shitstorm before even trying to think about it properly first.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
I disagree. I do feel the CON score provides a good way to help vary up characters. My issue is more of CON not doing MORE/being more dynamic. As-is it determines HP, CON saves, and concentration.... but that's about it. Abilities that make enemies make CON saves are near-useless cause they always have such stacked amounts while players can never breach a +5 without outside boosts. It impacts no skills (even stuff like athletics) and mainly focuses on HP. I want it to do more like, say, I dunno, you can regain a number of sorc points equal to your CON on a short rest or something? Or maybe a penalty on repeated skill checks that don't use your primary stat (CHA for sorcs, but, say, STR for a barb or death saves for a WIZ) that gets mitigated/negated with a high enough CON? Something to make it feel less like 'you're putting stats here just because you need the HP/save and there's no other purpose for the stat'.
I would overall say yes to constitution as the primary casting stat for sorcerer, but not for many of the things that people believe.
Thematically makes sense, your magic is inborn from a physical mutation, and how strong your body overall is likely proportional to the strength of the mutation, because I think of this mutation feeds from your body to fuel the powers it grants. This feeding is why you have a small hit die, because a vast portion of your vitality is directed at fueling your power.
Charisma is honestly a good stat for warlocks and clerics, because clerics are begging their god for assistance in time of need, and warlocks are bargaining with eldritch beings to teach them power, though the arguement is that intelligence could also work because you have to be very very cunning to get an eldritch being to work with you and to properly learn the things they teach, good int is needed. But, charisma doesnt do it for sorcerers... they arent charming the universe with the beauty of their inborn mutation to cast magic, that just makes no sense. Wisdom is better for druids due to their commitment to nature and their perception of its cycles and flow, and honestly its better on paladins because it symbolizes their courage and unwavering commitment to their oath. Charisma is the ability to use your willpower to influence other creatures, which is why bards use it... because their music is literally played not for the audience, but for the universe itself to hear and dance to it (or certain creatures if you play a tricky enchant/illusion based bard). A mutation has no such attachment to charisma, it doesnt care how attractive you are.
In regard to this making the sorcerer more beefy, I believe this is fine and actually helps it compete better with the wizard as a straight class rather than as a multiclass dip. You are better at holding concentration, and standing up in combat and have more sustainability to the amount of spells that you throw out, that makes it more attractive. However, being full casters with no armor proficiencies, to have the AC to match your hp, beyond certain combos like mountain dwarf, you either have to multiclass which could hinder you depending on what you multiclass with, pick mage armor in your already limited spell choices, or take multiple feats. The draconic sorcerer is an abvious standout, however and would be very powerful with this, might need adjutsment to be more balanced with it. But this also begs the question, draconic sorcerer has always been more beefy than the wizard, has it been unbalanced? not at all. Also, thematically it makes sense, many sorcerer subclasses are descended from things like dragons and gods and other strong creatures that would make sense why you are tougher than the nerdy wizard that went to school.
And the last point we come to is multiclass combos. I believe that it is fine to be a multiclass combos, tbh. Because martials and casters have two very distinct playstyles that dont always mesh even if the casting stat is con.
For full-casters, the multiclass combo of a con sorcerer and another casting class does not come online until late game. Most full casters like bard (unless valor), druid, wizard, warlock (unless bladelock) and cleric (if not a melee cleric) tend to have lower constitutions, so it will be a gamble on whether you want to increase hp and sorcery, or increase your skills and effectiveness in your other class. Its not until very high levels when you have both maxed and are very powerful, but usually most characters have those maxed by that point anyhow, so its a non-issue. So basically, you are faced with the opportunity cost. So honestly sorcerer benefits more from dips into other casting classes, than other casting classes benefit from dipping into it.
For martials, this multiclass would be a great boon, but beyond very niche nova abilities like action surge or abilities that require significant investment like war magic, it isnt as effective because they are forced to choose between casting and smacking with their action economy. Barbarians who would find the most use of this combo would find themselves unable to do much with it unless they are out of rage or to cast preparatory buff spells which few actually need high con. It would be a great combo for a sorc fighter, but it would fall behind in terms that multiclassing a pure martial with a caster like a sorc slows down your progression in either fighting or casting and takes long to come online fully.
Lastly, this would honestly make the sorlock combo less efficient, as it would force them again into the opportunity cost of being more vital and sorcerous or better at being charming and devious and your warlock spells and abilities like the dreaded eldritch blast. It also kinda cucks the sorcadin a bit, because certain abilities like aura of protection might not be as effective if you are more focused on buffing your con, and your paladin spells, particularly some of your healings and saving throw channel divinities or debuff spells are much less useful.
And finally, classes that rely heavily on dex for AC and attacks will find themselves struggling a bit more to boost their con and their dex, unless they have no other primary stats besides con and dex, which still limits them to not buffing their con till the later game which few player or characters tend to reach.
Obviously with serious min-maxing, certain niche but broken subclass/race combos, and just very high rolled stats it can be overpowered, but thats honestly the same issue with any class.
So overall, the movement to a con based casting state would honestly fix many of the issues that arise in broken multiclass combos and actually make the sorcerer more attractive to play as a singular class overall, because now they have a niche they fill, the slightly harder to drop endurant caster that has fewer spells but can cast them more often and flexibly with longer lasting concentration buffs.
These are my two cents, feel free to point out any falacies.
"Thematically makes sense, your magic is inborn from a physical mutation, and how strong your body overall is likely proportional to the strength of the mutation, because I think of this mutation feeds from your body to fuel the powers it grants. This feeding is why you have a small hit die, because a vast portion of your vitality is directed at fueling your power. "
This isn't always the case though. In many cases of sorcerous origin, it may have absolutely nothing to do with your blood or body. This is why it's Charisma in the first place.
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
Frankly I find the role of charisma ludicrous and dumb. I do not know why dnd decided to make charisma synonymous with will power, especially when anything approaching a will save is handled via wisdom.
Edit: to clarify I am not insulting you Cyb3rM1nd, I am insulting the horrid decision to make charisma represent will.
In addition I feel like channelling magic, be it from your blood or soul or even a link you have to another plane, out from you and into the wider world in a raw and innate way would make sense as constitution, at least more so then charisma.
Can you cite a source for charisma being considered "willpower"? This doesn't come up anywhere I've seen. From Using Ability Scores (PHB/Basic Rules): "Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality." Sometimes this 'force of personality' is seen simply as attractiveness or leadership skill; but in other cases it is a measure of exemplary or otherworldly quality. This latter definition is the connection with Sorcerers.
That said, Charisma is a casting stat for the same reason Int and Wis are casting stats for other classes - because if they weren't then they'd just be dump stats.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
You could argue having to make charisma saves against spells like zone of truth, banishment etc implies it being used for willpower as well. Just as general intelligence is split between INT and WIS, general willpower is split between WIS and CHA in the system.
I don't necessarily agree with your last conclusion though. They aren't casting stats to prevent them from being dump stats. Especially WIS and CHA goes a LONG way for out of combat utility (and are super important for saving throws in combat). The reason why they are used for casting is because they didn't want you to use the same ability score martials focus on for casting because it would make it too easy to double dip into both areas with just a single stat (let's ignore them releasing stuff like Hexblade and Battle Smith for a second because WotC is never consistent in anything they do, especially this long after the initial release of an edition) and using CON would offer a similar problem of being a somewhat high priority choice for any other class as well, be it martial or caster, not to mentioning it being an ability score purely used for defensive purposes so using it for offensive purposes as well is not a good design choice either.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
I believe that a Sorcerer should use his Con as his casting stat AND that it should be balanced by having metamagic points be purchased from hit points the Sorcerer must take in damage to himself.
Sorcerer should neither be Charisma or Constitution, it should be Wisdom.
We need a reshuffle of casting stats.
Int casters;Wizards, Artificers and Bard.
Wis casters;Druid, Sorcerer and Ranger.
Cha casters;Warlock, Cleric and Paladin.
And there should be variant magical origin rule that lets you pick your starting class' casting mod, from three categories;
Granted: Charisma
Innate: Wisdom
Learned: Intelligence
I don't remember who said in this thread but it was their idea really and I loved it so much.
I am not sure that is willpower. I always saw these saves as "status", "fate" or "karma". It represents the status or powerful effect of charisma. People that are powerful can be charismatic because of their power and status alone.
Sorry it took a bit for me to get back to you. It turns out the Willpower thing which I loathe and which a bunch of people have used as an argument against changing the stat in the past is a hold over from 3.5. But I still don't see why Charisma makes sense.
An exemplary or otherworldly quality doesn't lend itself well to Charisma in my opinion, especially since that is an even more case by case thing then whether your magic is drawn from your body or something else.
In terms of mechanics, it wouldn't be balanced to use Constitution as you'd make the sorcerer class dependent upon a single attribute, so no way I see that happening. Plus Charisma is the same attribute used by Paladins and Warlocks, as well as tieflings, and fiends that have innate casting etc., so the precedent is for Charisma for that type of "innate" casting.
For thematics I don't see the problem with Charisma = willpower = casting ability, as having the raw power within yourself isn't enough, you still need to control it somehow, and that means focusing it with your mind, not flexing your guts real hard. Intelligence is more for learned/studied action, Wisdom I tend to think of as "experience" or "instinct", Charisma is either personality or willpower (or a mix of both) so it seems like the correct fit; it's about a person's ability to control what is within themselves. While that's something you might learn to do over time, it's the force of will that enables you to do it.
Plus I just think it fits Sorcerers well; your Wizards learn their spells from books, and has to study the detail to figure out their new tricks. A sorcerer bends their magic to their will, and shapes through that force of will, giving them their own flexibility by altering spells. I don't think Wizards succeeded on that theme as much as they could have (more Metamagics picks and options would help), but thematically this makes sense to me, so I think it's fine as is.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
Paladins and Warlocks (and possibly fiends) don't get their spell power from anything innate.
Paladins and Warlocks use CHA because it fits their stereotype of making people do what they want with speeches and such so you automatically are decently capable in persuasion and intimidation even without any proficiency, that's all. Warlocks used to be INT casters in the past as well.
I've never encountered a forum where I got this many "talking to a wall" impressions as this one...
Not my intended meaning; I was just grouping all the charisma casters together to show the sorcerer belongs among them not apart from them.
That said, paladin/warlock are arguably a flavour of innate in that I would say their deity/patron acts through them, compared to cleric/druid/ranger who more specifically call upon their deity/nature for their powers. It's an over-simplification but then so were various things in 5e.
Characters: Bullette, Chortle, Dracarys Noir, Edward Merryspell, Habard Ashery, Legion, Peregrine
My Homebrew: Feats | Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Races
Guides: Creating Sub-Races Using Trait Options
WIP (feedback needed): Blood Mage, Chromatic Sorcerers, Summoner, Trickster Domain, Unlucky, Way of the Daoist (Drunken Master), Weapon Smith
Please don't reply to my posts unless you've read what they actually say.
I am cursed to return to this thread every couple of years to remind people that there are ways to motivate stat stratification. Dexterity and Wisdom are as important as Constitution. You could also tie the number of Meta magics know to your Charisma modifier etc.