I'm inclined to think so since the sorcerer's power comes from their blood. We already have two other classes that cast with charisma, so it would be a good way to make the class feel unique and give you lots of options for multiclassing and make more interesting character Concepts. Dragonborn and Genasi cast their racial magic abilities using constitution, so why wouldn't all innately magic beings cast so?
Sorcerers by default do not get their powers "from their blood". Some do, especially those like Draconic Bloodline, but others may get their powers by being changed from a ritual, an encounter with a fey being, planar distortion. The power could manifest through blood, their soul, their mind, etc.
Charisma is not just about personality in the sense of social interaction. Charisma, even by real-world definition, is about your presence in the world and your ability to use what is within you to manipulate the world. It is the mark of your influence. Put simply, this is the "soul" stat. This is why when spells target you dimensionally like Plane Shift you make a Charisma save - it is a spell targeting your "presence in the world" which is what charisma really is.
The reason why dragonborn and genasi use Constitution is because these powers are natural to their race and is within their genes, their body. The powers of a sorcerer are not part of your race, it is an alteration that could be passed down in blood, but could also be a power in your soul - perhaps you were born with a connection to the Feywild causing you to become a Wild Magic Sorcerer, This may be because you were born in an area where the feywild and material plane overlap and may have nothing to do with your blood or ancestry.
Also, making any spellcaster constitution based is much, much too powerful when multiclassing. The drawback of multiclassing is so that when mixing martial based classes and spellcasting classes you are required to spread out your stats or be less effective in one. This is also the reason why Paladins are Charisma instead of Wisdom like Clerics despite the magic they both have coming from the same source (a deity). If they were both the same stat then it would be easier to multiclass (don't forget multiclassing has stat requirements) and you can become incredibly overpowered.
There are more check and balances in place than ability stratification. You can't take the attack action and the cast a spell action on the same turn, you will fall behind in spell casting, you will miss powerful class abilities ECT. Going full Sorc would still be the most optimal, you'd just have more room to branch out if you didn't care about optimization as much.
I've always thought of charisma as the "Will power" stat. Sorcerer's cast with it because they're willing their desire upon the world via magic. Constitution could just as easily represent a healthy and strong wind not just body.
I would argue that all sub classes do imply that you are innately magical. The Divine Soul and Draconic bloodline are obviously so, but even the other subclasses imply that you are changed physically by whatever has imbued you with power.
You can take a Wizard's spellbook away, you can separate a Warlock from their Patron, but you can't take away a Sorcerer's Magic. Its a part of them.
Wisdom is the will power stat and instincts. It's why you use it for saves that try to control your mind like Suggestion or Dominate Person.
Most innate magic (as in innate spellcasting power, not tied to racial ability) is Charisma. It's actually rare for any innate spells to use Con. The reason for some to use Con is to indicate they are racial spell-like abilities rather than spellcasting. This harkens back to previous editions where "spells" and "spell-like abilities" were separate things.
Things may alter you to make you a Sorc but that is an alteration of you/your family, hence Cha not of your race, hence not Con.
I am aware there are other factors at play when multiclassing. But those factors are insufficient on their own to warrant allowing Con over Cha for Sorcs. There was a UA Sorc subclass that let you use Con instead of Cha. Despite it being widely popular it never made it through playtest due to being broken as hell for this very reason.
(And it's etc not ect. Sorry, this is just a pet peeve feel free to ignore me. >.>)
Well you've made some good points, but I'm still going to allow this at my table. I'm not worried about Over powered PCs I can always scale the world around them, but the ultimate goal is for the players to "win" anyway. As far as an OP PC overshadowing other players, I think it's part of my job as DM to create a variety of scenarios so that everyone gets a chance to shine.
That being said I really don't understand why you think a Constitution Caster would be OP. Sure, every class benefits from Con, but while every class benefits from Dex and Wis as well, Rogues and Druids are not OP. They would have more HP than a Wizard, but they are still rolling a d6 hit die and they are not as versatile in their spell selection, so on paper it seems balanced to me.
(You aren't being crazy lol, that IS annoying now that I notice it. It must be a typo that my phone saved to auto-correct :p)
Because dumping off one stat for getting two huge benefits as opposed to picking one over the other can get out of hand very quickly with a larger health pool and having their spell saves beefed up to the max. Sure, they're still rolling a d6, but having a maxed out con and not having to worry about much else still makes for a beefy sorcerer.
I'll say this much, I've given the benefit of having Con tied to AC like it was for the Stone Sorcerer in UA and mostly leave it at that. Its a strong benefit but still makes the choice of picking AS's comparable to every other class.
I love sorcerers, I love the flavor and I love the sweet-sweet meta-magic, that said they are objectively worse than Wizards and lack the versatility of Warlocks and Bards. They are the combat casters, so why not make them better at concentration, better at taking a hit? If they are dumping all their ASI into Con, they aren't getting a boost to their AC from dex, they aren't putting points into Wisdom so they are easy to sneak up on. Sure they could have more variety by picking up physical stats, but they still can't take the attack action and the cast a spell action.
The sorcerer class, as it is, is a waterdowned wizard with a few neat tricks. A Con caster wading into the thick of battle would be unlike any other class experience. Yes, Min-maxer could make an OP PC, but that's true of any class.
be careful as a mountain dwarf now as medium armor and a ton of hp while casting deadly spells that can be twinned. Personally I like the idea, it makes touch spells more viable.
I would've preferred Int-based Warlocks to Con-based Sorcerers. Sadly, they reversed course because past editions used Cha on 'locks, relegating Int to being important on exactly one class and Cha for about a third of them.
I DM more than I play, at my table I let people trade out mental stats (But not physical stats). One player has a Bard that uses Wisdom instead of charisma. He plays it as a street smart wizard that picked up magic by watching others. He didn't get no fancy magic schooling. Just ask your DM if you can be an Int Warlock. Maybe your "patron" is a book that you are in the progress of translating. As you unlock more of its secrets you gain more powers.
But I'm getting off topic lol I think that years from now, when 6e comes out, they should design the sorcerer around Constitution.
It may be a balance issue but now you have the oddity of DND - automatically Char based casters suddenly have very good social skills. If you want a socially apt Fighter or Wizard...to say be a party leader you will have to put points into an otherwise useless stat. Maybe I can understand Paladins having this but Sorcerers and Warlocks?
In the end if you are going to house rule something like this you might just add another stat - call it "inner magic" or whatever or consider running magic from and average of Con and Cha.
Maybe I can understand Paladins having this but Sorcerers and Warlocks?
Sorcerers are a bit odd, admittedly, but warlocks use Charisma specifically because people wanted someone that was good at making deals and bargaining and being tricky. The whole point of being a warlock is that you're not making the cut for being a wizard or other caster. The strength of your magic is directly tied to how well you can bargain with your Patron for it.
That's why I let my players use what mental stats that they want when they play casters, as long as the can explain why in a way that I think makes since. I won't let Wizards cast with charisma and I won't let Sorcerers cast with intelligence for example.
The one sorcerer I got to play was Draconic and I played her as a bit of a bully since she had a low wisdom score. If you don't want your sorcerer to be a face, take proficiency in intimidation instead of persuasion.
The spellcasting ability for sorcerers should be Constitution, not Charisma! Their magic is innate and runs in their bloodline. It has nothing to do with being charismatic. I thought “ok, maybe they only use the 3 more intellectual abilities (CHA, INT, WIS) for spellcasting” but then the Genasi’s innate elemental spells use Constitution!
This makes no senseeeeee!!!
I fully agree with this.
Even if they got their magic from a fey or demon or whatever, it still means their blood has been blessed or tainted; ergo; they should cast through Constitution since it measures your health and stamina; innate things:
Almost every magical creatures that is innately magical and can cast spells go through Charisma. Its a part of their being. They will something to be, and the universe responds in kind. Sorcerers, being innately magical creatures, function the same way. Next to no being in the game casts off of Constitution, since raw physicality does not transfer well over to active spellcraft. The genasai are the only ones that have constitution as a spellcasting modifier. Not even the genies they come from work that way.
Its not going to kill anything if you allow it at the table, but keep in mind the implications of giving a player one AS they have to focus on at the exclusion of all others. No other character class otherwise will have that benefit.
Good on you!! I’m making the shift to con Sorcery too.
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I'm a filmmaker who fell in love with D&D because it saved my life. With my filmmaking skills I try to tell stories with my friends and try to entertain an audience. I mostly focus on FablesD20, my Youtube channel. I also work as showrunner on Corridor Digital's D&D show onCorridordigital.com "Son of a Dungeon" where VFX artists play D&D and recreate cool parts in VFX and on Green Screens.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Sorcerers already get proficiency on Con saves. That means they have very few issues with concentrating on spells. I've almost never dropped a concentration spell when injured. I've also resisted many a poisoning.
Bards key off of Charisma as well and its not because of stereotypical bard behavior. Many bards also will their spells, they just use music or words to focus their them (which is why their instruments can be their arcane focus).
I think Xanather's and Tasha's goes in the right direction by calling them origins not bloodlines. Magic in your blood does imply ancestry but I don't think that's what WoTC intended. The PHB has Draconic bloodline and Wild Magic. It's not always what's in your blood, it's what helps you focus your will. Maybe you have a draconic or divine ancestor or maybe the Fey cursed you, or an aberrant force influenced you. It doesn't necessarily change your blood/DNA but it does change your soul hence Divine Soul and Clockwork Soul sorcerers. I know some pretty charismatic people. They are good at bending other people to their will and I suspect a sorcerer's effect on the weave is similar.
And of course there is metamagic. The ability to bend the weave to your will doesn't need to come from your DNA.
I think DMs should do what works at their table and for their players. If Con seems like a better fit then that's a good house rule. I don't think using Con would necessarily be overpowered, there are ways to factor that in - the same way you have to deal with Sorlock or any other multi class that keys off Sorcerer. There are benefits to being a charisma caster and I have never felt that using the same stat as Warlocks and Bards made the class any less unique. Sorcerers can destroy the spell action economy which is what is truly unique about them.
I don't think anyone here considered the volatility and physical danger angle of Sorcerers' spellcasting. This is a well established flavor throughout fiction.
Maybe a reason to allow a CON sorcerer would be the understanding that, in order to effect his magic, he must be able to bear some cost on his body - as a conduit of magic into the world.
Maybe a CON sorc that receives spell-level-based damage when casting - he could roll a save to mitigate this damage by proficiency + CHA.
I'm inclined to think so since the sorcerer's power comes from their blood. We already have two other classes that cast with charisma, so it would be a good way to make the class feel unique and give you lots of options for multiclassing and make more interesting character Concepts. Dragonborn and Genasi cast their racial magic abilities using constitution, so why wouldn't all innately magic beings cast so?
Sorcerers by default do not get their powers "from their blood". Some do, especially those like Draconic Bloodline, but others may get their powers by being changed from a ritual, an encounter with a fey being, planar distortion. The power could manifest through blood, their soul, their mind, etc.
Charisma is not just about personality in the sense of social interaction. Charisma, even by real-world definition, is about your presence in the world and your ability to use what is within you to manipulate the world. It is the mark of your influence. Put simply, this is the "soul" stat. This is why when spells target you dimensionally like Plane Shift you make a Charisma save - it is a spell targeting your "presence in the world" which is what charisma really is.
The reason why dragonborn and genasi use Constitution is because these powers are natural to their race and is within their genes, their body. The powers of a sorcerer are not part of your race, it is an alteration that could be passed down in blood, but could also be a power in your soul - perhaps you were born with a connection to the Feywild causing you to become a Wild Magic Sorcerer, This may be because you were born in an area where the feywild and material plane overlap and may have nothing to do with your blood or ancestry.
Also, making any spellcaster constitution based is much, much too powerful when multiclassing. The drawback of multiclassing is so that when mixing martial based classes and spellcasting classes you are required to spread out your stats or be less effective in one. This is also the reason why Paladins are Charisma instead of Wisdom like Clerics despite the magic they both have coming from the same source (a deity). If they were both the same stat then it would be easier to multiclass (don't forget multiclassing has stat requirements) and you can become incredibly overpowered.
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There are more check and balances in place than ability stratification. You can't take the attack action and the cast a spell action on the same turn, you will fall behind in spell casting, you will miss powerful class abilities ECT. Going full Sorc would still be the most optimal, you'd just have more room to branch out if you didn't care about optimization as much.
I've always thought of charisma as the "Will power" stat. Sorcerer's cast with it because they're willing their desire upon the world via magic. Constitution could just as easily represent a healthy and strong wind not just body.
I would argue that all sub classes do imply that you are innately magical. The Divine Soul and Draconic bloodline are obviously so, but even the other subclasses imply that you are changed physically by whatever has imbued you with power.
You can take a Wizard's spellbook away, you can separate a Warlock from their Patron, but you can't take away a Sorcerer's Magic. Its a part of them.
Wisdom is the will power stat and instincts. It's why you use it for saves that try to control your mind like Suggestion or Dominate Person.
Most innate magic (as in innate spellcasting power, not tied to racial ability) is Charisma. It's actually rare for any innate spells to use Con. The reason for some to use Con is to indicate they are racial spell-like abilities rather than spellcasting. This harkens back to previous editions where "spells" and "spell-like abilities" were separate things.
Things may alter you to make you a Sorc but that is an alteration of you/your family, hence Cha not of your race, hence not Con.
I am aware there are other factors at play when multiclassing. But those factors are insufficient on their own to warrant allowing Con over Cha for Sorcs. There was a UA Sorc subclass that let you use Con instead of Cha. Despite it being widely popular it never made it through playtest due to being broken as hell for this very reason.
(And it's etc not ect. Sorry, this is just a pet peeve feel free to ignore me. >.>)
My Homebrew: Races | Subclasses | Backgrounds | Spells | Magic Items | Feats
Need help with Homebrew? Check out this FAQ/Guide thread by IamSposta
See My Youtube Videos for Tips & Tricks using D&D Beyond
Well you've made some good points, but I'm still going to allow this at my table. I'm not worried about Over powered PCs I can always scale the world around them, but the ultimate goal is for the players to "win" anyway. As far as an OP PC overshadowing other players, I think it's part of my job as DM to create a variety of scenarios so that everyone gets a chance to shine.
That being said I really don't understand why you think a Constitution Caster would be OP. Sure, every class benefits from Con, but while every class benefits from Dex and Wis as well, Rogues and Druids are not OP. They would have more HP than a Wizard, but they are still rolling a d6 hit die and they are not as versatile in their spell selection, so on paper it seems balanced to me.
(You aren't being crazy lol, that IS annoying now that I notice it. It must be a typo that my phone saved to auto-correct :p)
Because dumping off one stat for getting two huge benefits as opposed to picking one over the other can get out of hand very quickly with a larger health pool and having their spell saves beefed up to the max. Sure, they're still rolling a d6, but having a maxed out con and not having to worry about much else still makes for a beefy sorcerer.
I'll say this much, I've given the benefit of having Con tied to AC like it was for the Stone Sorcerer in UA and mostly leave it at that. Its a strong benefit but still makes the choice of picking AS's comparable to every other class.
I love sorcerers, I love the flavor and I love the sweet-sweet meta-magic, that said they are objectively worse than Wizards and lack the versatility of Warlocks and Bards. They are the combat casters, so why not make them better at concentration, better at taking a hit? If they are dumping all their ASI into Con, they aren't getting a boost to their AC from dex, they aren't putting points into Wisdom so they are easy to sneak up on. Sure they could have more variety by picking up physical stats, but they still can't take the attack action and the cast a spell action.
The sorcerer class, as it is, is a waterdowned wizard with a few neat tricks. A Con caster wading into the thick of battle would be unlike any other class experience. Yes, Min-maxer could make an OP PC, but that's true of any class.
be careful as a mountain dwarf now as medium armor and a ton of hp while casting deadly spells that can be twinned. Personally I like the idea, it makes touch spells more viable.
I would've preferred Int-based Warlocks to Con-based Sorcerers. Sadly, they reversed course because past editions used Cha on 'locks, relegating Int to being important on exactly one class and Cha for about a third of them.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
I DM more than I play, at my table I let people trade out mental stats (But not physical stats). One player has a Bard that uses Wisdom instead of charisma. He plays it as a street smart wizard that picked up magic by watching others. He didn't get no fancy magic schooling. Just ask your DM if you can be an Int Warlock. Maybe your "patron" is a book that you are in the progress of translating. As you unlock more of its secrets you gain more powers.
But I'm getting off topic lol I think that years from now, when 6e comes out, they should design the sorcerer around Constitution.
Oh, I would. But the only options I have here to play rather than DM is DDAL, so house ruling isn't an option.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.
It may be a balance issue but now you have the oddity of DND - automatically Char based casters suddenly have very good social skills. If you want a socially apt Fighter or Wizard...to say be a party leader you will have to put points into an otherwise useless stat. Maybe I can understand Paladins having this but Sorcerers and Warlocks?
In the end if you are going to house rule something like this you might just add another stat - call it "inner magic" or whatever or consider running magic from and average of Con and Cha.
Sorcerers are a bit odd, admittedly, but warlocks use Charisma specifically because people wanted someone that was good at making deals and bargaining and being tricky. The whole point of being a warlock is that you're not making the cut for being a wizard or other caster. The strength of your magic is directly tied to how well you can bargain with your Patron for it.
That's why I let my players use what mental stats that they want when they play casters, as long as the can explain why in a way that I think makes since. I won't let Wizards cast with charisma and I won't let Sorcerers cast with intelligence for example.
The one sorcerer I got to play was Draconic and I played her as a bit of a bully since she had a low wisdom score. If you don't want your sorcerer to be a face, take proficiency in intimidation instead of persuasion.
The spellcasting ability for sorcerers should be Constitution, not Charisma! Their magic is innate and runs in their bloodline. It has nothing to do with being charismatic. I thought “ok, maybe they only use the 3 more intellectual abilities (CHA, INT, WIS) for spellcasting” but then the Genasi’s innate elemental spells use Constitution!
This makes no senseeeeee!!!
I fully agree with this.
Even if they got their magic from a fey or demon or whatever, it still means their blood has been blessed or tainted; ergo; they should cast through Constitution since it measures your health and stamina; innate things:
i like linguistics and, well, d&d, obviously. this bio hadn't been updated for 3 years so i figured i'd do that.
Almost every magical creatures that is innately magical and can cast spells go through Charisma. Its a part of their being. They will something to be, and the universe responds in kind. Sorcerers, being innately magical creatures, function the same way. Next to no being in the game casts off of Constitution, since raw physicality does not transfer well over to active spellcraft. The genasai are the only ones that have constitution as a spellcasting modifier. Not even the genies they come from work that way.
Its not going to kill anything if you allow it at the table, but keep in mind the implications of giving a player one AS they have to focus on at the exclusion of all others. No other character class otherwise will have that benefit.
Good on you!! I’m making the shift to con Sorcery too.
I'm a filmmaker who fell in love with D&D because it saved my life.
With my filmmaking skills I try to tell stories with my friends and try to entertain an audience.
I mostly focus on FablesD20, my Youtube channel. I also work as showrunner on Corridor Digital's D&D show on Corridordigital.com "Son of a Dungeon" where VFX artists play D&D and recreate cool parts in VFX and on Green Screens.
It would certainly change the multi-class game.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Sorcerers already get proficiency on Con saves. That means they have very few issues with concentrating on spells. I've almost never dropped a concentration spell when injured. I've also resisted many a poisoning.
Bards key off of Charisma as well and its not because of stereotypical bard behavior. Many bards also will their spells, they just use music or words to focus their them (which is why their instruments can be their arcane focus).
I think Xanather's and Tasha's goes in the right direction by calling them origins not bloodlines. Magic in your blood does imply ancestry but I don't think that's what WoTC intended. The PHB has Draconic bloodline and Wild Magic. It's not always what's in your blood, it's what helps you focus your will. Maybe you have a draconic or divine ancestor or maybe the Fey cursed you, or an aberrant force influenced you. It doesn't necessarily change your blood/DNA but it does change your soul hence Divine Soul and Clockwork Soul sorcerers. I know some pretty charismatic people. They are good at bending other people to their will and I suspect a sorcerer's effect on the weave is similar.
And of course there is metamagic. The ability to bend the weave to your will doesn't need to come from your DNA.
I think DMs should do what works at their table and for their players. If Con seems like a better fit then that's a good house rule. I don't think using Con would necessarily be overpowered, there are ways to factor that in - the same way you have to deal with Sorlock or any other multi class that keys off Sorcerer. There are benefits to being a charisma caster and I have never felt that using the same stat as Warlocks and Bards made the class any less unique. Sorcerers can destroy the spell action economy which is what is truly unique about them.
A bit of necromancy, but I'm intrigued.
I don't think anyone here considered the volatility and physical danger angle of Sorcerers' spellcasting. This is a well established flavor throughout fiction.
Maybe a reason to allow a CON sorcerer would be the understanding that, in order to effect his magic, he must be able to bear some cost on his body - as a conduit of magic into the world.
Maybe a CON sorc that receives spell-level-based damage when casting - he could roll a save to mitigate this damage by proficiency + CHA.