Greetings! Last Session my HexBlade used the Accursed Specter feature and summoned a Specter after killing a foe. The rest of the group started questioning my characters intentions after performing, in their eyes, such a evil action.
My character (and me as a player) dont find this act to be evil, but rather a punishment for for the vanquished foe. Being Neutral Good and defeating someone who in his eyes was evil is more than enough justification to make the subject help the Victor doing some right again.
The specter remains in your service until the end of your next long rest, at which point it vanishes to the afterlife.
The flavor of the power is a bit dark but it's just until the end of the next long rest. Your character could make a strong argument that there's no moral difference between this and using any summon spell - Conjure Animals says it "summons fey spirits" - if what you do is evil isin't that evil too?
The spirit won't be harmed by a little short term service, you could even argue to are giving it a chance to redeem itself if you want. Personally I'd just go with the argument that in a fantasy setting like D&D, this sort of action is simply not inherently evil anymore than Conjure Animals.
The whole class of warlock, barring the new Celestial subclass, has something of an evil/neutral theme with making pacts for power, a generally greedy self-serving choice. There are definitely exceptions, especially when the pact is accidental or made in desperation, but the Hexblade subclass's description even refers to its magic as 'dark powers'.
What I'm trying to say is that this subclass feature, when you break it down, is you taking away something's free will, enslaving it, and forcing it to obey you. That's pretty much the definition of evil by most standards. You can say that a creature was evil, but that opens you up to the 'two wrongs don't make a right' argument. You can then play the 'means justify the end' card, which in most stories tends to lead to a character succumbing to evil, or—to use another phrase—'the path to hell is paved with good intentions'.
Personally I find these situations very interesting, and I would thoroughly enjoy playing this out in all its moral-dilemma goodness. Perhaps this vengeful nature is part of your character, and is a flaw you could play into. The whole subclass is the perfect basis for an 'anti-hero'.
If you don't want it to be an issue among the group then I'd suggest trying to play it off as necessary to defeat your foes, but I honestly don't see a way to justify it as 'good'.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
The specter remains in your service until the end of your next long rest, at which point it vanishes to the afterlife.
The flavor of the power is a bit dark but it's just until the end of the next long rest. Your character could make a strong argument that there's no moral difference between this and using any summon spell - Conjure Animals says it "summons fey spirits" - if what you do is evil isin't that evil too?
The spirit won't be harmed by a little short term service, you could even argue to are giving it a chance to redeem itself if you want. Personally I'd just go with the argument that in a fantasy setting like D&D, this sort of action is simply not inherently evil anymore than Conjure Animals.
Exactly what I feel. Yanking a random animal/creature out of its natural habitat to serve you doesnt exactly sound nice and comfy!
This is actually an excellent point about conjuration spells. Almost all of the conjuring spells tell us that the creature becomes hostile if we lose concentration, and entries in the Monster Manual tell us that elementals and fey spirits resent being summoned.
It certainly doesn't justify this hexblade trait, but it might stop a druid from arguing against you using it!
The whole class of warlock, barring the new Celestial subclass, has something of an evil/neutral theme with making pacts for power, a generally greedy self-serving choice. There are definitely exceptions, especially when the pact is accidental or made in desperation, but the Hexblade subclass's description even refers to its magic as 'dark powers'.
What I'm trying to say is that this subclass feature, when you break it down, is you taking away something's free will, enslaving it, and forcing it to obey you. That's pretty much the definition of evil by most standards. You can say that a creature was evil, but that opens you up to the 'two wrongs don't make a right' argument. You can then play the 'means justify the end' card, which in most stories tends to lead to a character succumbing to evil, or—to use another phrase—'the path to hell is paved with good intentions'.
Personally I find these situations very interesting, and I would thoroughly enjoy playing this out in all its moral-dilemma goodness. Perhaps this vengeful nature is part of your character, and is a flaw you could play into. The whole subclass is the perfect basis for an 'anti-hero'.
If you don't want it to be an issue among the group then I'd suggest trying to play it off as necessary to defeat your foes, but I honestly don't see a way to justify it as 'good'.
"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
— Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
The most interresting about this feature is the whole roleplaying aspect that can emerge, as it has in our group now. The group already balks at me being a Tiefling and seemingly good of nature, and with two instances of me using my powers to raise a Specter sure made the rest of the evening more interresting!
But yes, Warlocks might not be the nicest people in the crowd and a ability like that might raise eyebrows (or swordarms), lets just hope they understand that he thinks the means justify the end and all will turn out swell in the long run.
IF it's a problem, talk to the DM about the ability not actually trapping the soul, but just creating a spectre from the energy of death or whatever, or animating the shadow, etc.
IF it's a problem, talk to the DM about the ability not actually trapping the soul, but just creating a spectre from the energy of death or whatever, or animating the shadow, etc.
Good idea. But with the new video about the RavenQueen it might be hard to convince him about that. But it also fleshes my Patron out alot more so its easier to understand for both me, the party and the DM that its not quite evil thing to do (according to the followers of the RavenQueen)
IF it's a problem, talk to the DM about the ability not actually trapping the soul, but just creating a spectre from the energy of death or whatever, or animating the shadow, etc.
Good idea. But with the new video about the RavenQueen it might be hard to convince him about that. But it also fleshes my Patron out alot more so its easier to understand for both me, the party and the DM that its not quite evil thing to do (according to the followers of the RavenQueen)
Why would the Raven Queen video contradict that? I watched it twice, since it was put up, and can't think of any reason.
This was an interesting discussion I had when I played a necromancer wizard followed by a hexblade warlock going from a one shot to a full on campaign. As a necro wizard in the one shot, I had to headbutt with a "Bury all the dead because they deserve that at least" style paladin. My argument to that was that in life, they were thieves and murderers. They were vicious monsters who contributed nothing but vile actions to the world. In death, they have the potential for redemption by serving as bodyguards for my wizard (Who was a short, "Young" human girl. Spoiler: She was 1000 and some change.) and that if it would serve the paladin's interest, I would be more than happy to discuss the issue with their chosen deity and strike a deal. For service after death, their deity would bless their souls. This changed the paladin's overall goal to be a little more iffy on the grounds that now she had to protect my skeletons and zombies so that they could earn their blessings but it made a pretty nice fit in the end.
As for my hexblade warlock, I will say that I never intended him to be anything short of a anti-hero. The "I will sin on your behalf so that you may remain pure" archetype so when it comes to spectre, his argument is generally, "He will walk on traps as to spare you pain." But if I were to try and flavor it with 'Good' I would probably flavor it along the same lines as above. A shot at redemption and making a point to thank each of them for there service upon summoning.
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You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
This isn't my problem with the specter, but your problem is part of it. This sort of thing doesn't seem like a "hexblade" type character to me. This is a summoner feature and the hexblade has never had anything that seems "summon"-like, nor commanding. It's just a gish-type caster. A blade-lock. The UA hound ability fit WAY better, even though it helped ranged even more than melee. And that doesn't even touch on your point which is a forced theme of evil on a seemingly-neutral pact. This is supposedly brought about by the Raven Queen's sentient weapon the Blackrazor and in the old lore, the Raven Queen HATES intelligent undead. In this, I'd give it something that would help it stay alive in combat more during the early levels. Hell, the Temp HP 1st level Fiend pact fits better.
I'm playing in a game. We just moved from Horde of the Dragon Queen to Rise of Tiamat.
My character's background is X-cultist (spy). I got to use the feature for the first time against a cultist in a fight and used the line "You served the cult in life, now you serve me in death." I also regularly have summoned daemons.
The party is mostly neutral and don't really question me. I've been surprised our Paladin hasn't as he's "Hero of Faerun!". He won't wear Goggles of the Night because they conflict with his aesthetic.
I do love the feature and the ghost as been great at body blocking for the party or assisting with the flank.
Lets see, it's powerful, tempting to use, summons a clearly chaotic evil entity, and prevents the victim from being easily raised as you've just cursed their very soul. Yeah, it's definitely a team evil kind of power.
But it's also a class feature. Use it as a RP opportunity with the team, but don't let it get out of hand.
This isn't my problem with the specter, but your problem is part of it. This sort of thing doesn't seem like a "hexblade" type character to me. This is a summoner feature and the hexblade has never had anything that seems "summon"-like, nor commanding. It's just a gish-type caster. A blade-lock. The UA hound ability fit WAY better, even though it helped ranged even more than melee. And that doesn't even touch on your point which is a forced theme of evil on a seemingly-neutral pact. This is supposedly brought about by the Raven Queen's sentient weapon the Blackrazor and in the old lore, the Raven Queen HATES intelligent undead. In this, I'd give it something that would help it stay alive in combat more during the early levels. Hell, the Temp HP 1st level Fiend pact fits better.
Id actually rather have the UA-Raven. Might be a bit OP with all the powers, but at least some of them.
I don't really like the Accursed specter feature because while it may be a strong asset when you get the feature at 6th LVL later on it doesn't do that much for you at all, it just becomes a transparent meat shield. I wish that later on you would be able to later on summon the cursed enemy as somebody stronger as you progress in your levels like at first it would be specter then later on it would be a Revenant and so on and so forth.
This isn't my problem with the specter, but your problem is part of it. This sort of thing doesn't seem like a "hexblade" type character to me. This is a summoner feature and the hexblade has never had anything that seems "summon"-like, nor commanding. It's just a gish-type caster. A blade-lock. The UA hound ability fit WAY better, even though it helped ranged even more than melee. And that doesn't even touch on your point which is a forced theme of evil on a seemingly-neutral pact. This is supposedly brought about by the Raven Queen's sentient weapon the Blackrazor and in the old lore, the Raven Queen HATES intelligent undead. In this, I'd give it something that would help it stay alive in combat more during the early levels. Hell, the Temp HP 1st level Fiend pact fits better.
Well its arguable, in 4th Hexblades could use the Summon Otherworld Ally power (lesser in heroic tier and Greater in Epic tier), so basicaly Demons.
Now yes an Hexblade can still take the summon Devil/demon spells.
The problem i have with this feature, is that there's no synergies with the rest of the class features or invocations and that it doesn't scale very well at higher levels...
For this the UA SHadow Hound had some RP uses, even if it was incomplet.
And in the same vein you have the Hound of Ill Omen feature for the Shadow Sorcerer, i mean it let you summon a Dire wolf, wich as nicer stats then the Specter( even if the Spectre can go through objects and people), and as the ability to inflicy disadvantage on saves VS spells you sling at the target if the wolf is in 5ft of it.
Our DM houseruled something else to replace it most of the time, one was that the Warlcok could sacrifice the Soul of its vanquished foe to his Patron for power, So either a +CHA on the next damage roll or getting a spellslot back if the foe was a certain CR.
Now to be perfectly frank if you want something that fits the Hexblade best, houserule that as a lvl 6 class feature, you can use your Hexblade's curse a number of times per short rest= CHA mod +1.
Always found that for a class thats called a HEXblade, you don't get much use out of the HEXblade's Curse with only once per short rest...
Honestly in the last 5 games i've played an Hexblade in 3 different campaigns, I'VE NEVER USED THIS FEATURE ONCE, always keeping it for a boss fight or hard foe, and never needed it in the end...
there should be more features and invocations dealing around Hex's and Hexblade curse
I am currently playing a warlock, just hit level 6. I used the accursed specter on a cultist that ambushed us in the night (along with rogues, and other nasties) and interrogated the specter. Asked it info similar to the commune with dead spell like clerics get. It seemed to work pretty well, but the DM thinks that accursed specter is op broken for the out of combat uses you can use for it, such as information, scouting, and things like that.
What you can do is ask it questions and have it answer yes or no, by doing a gesture or pointing at a board with Yes/No/Maybe written on it, since the Spectre understand any language it did speak in its live
Now the usefullness of this can be mitigated by the DM, since the feature never says to wich extent the Spectre keeps his past life memories/personality.
And the Description of Spectres in the MM include this "A specter is the angry, unfettered spirit of a humanoid that has been prevented from passing to the afterlife. Specters no longer possess connections to who or what they were, ".
So yeah, maybe the informations he could provide are vague or non-consistant at best.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Greetings! Last Session my HexBlade used the Accursed Specter feature and summoned a Specter after killing a foe. The rest of the group started questioning my characters intentions after performing, in their eyes, such a evil action.
My character (and me as a player) dont find this act to be evil, but rather a punishment for for the vanquished foe. Being Neutral Good and defeating someone who in his eyes was evil is more than enough justification to make the subject help the Victor doing some right again.
What do you guys and girls think?
The flavor of the power is a bit dark but it's just until the end of the next long rest. Your character could make a strong argument that there's no moral difference between this and using any summon spell - Conjure Animals says it "summons fey spirits" - if what you do is evil isin't that evil too?
The spirit won't be harmed by a little short term service, you could even argue to are giving it a chance to redeem itself if you want. Personally I'd just go with the argument that in a fantasy setting like D&D, this sort of action is simply not inherently evil anymore than Conjure Animals.
The whole class of warlock, barring the new Celestial subclass, has something of an evil/neutral theme with making pacts for power, a generally greedy self-serving choice. There are definitely exceptions, especially when the pact is accidental or made in desperation, but the Hexblade subclass's description even refers to its magic as 'dark powers'.
What I'm trying to say is that this subclass feature, when you break it down, is you taking away something's free will, enslaving it, and forcing it to obey you. That's pretty much the definition of evil by most standards. You can say that a creature was evil, but that opens you up to the 'two wrongs don't make a right' argument. You can then play the 'means justify the end' card, which in most stories tends to lead to a character succumbing to evil, or—to use another phrase—'the path to hell is paved with good intentions'.
Personally I find these situations very interesting, and I would thoroughly enjoy playing this out in all its moral-dilemma goodness. Perhaps this vengeful nature is part of your character, and is a flaw you could play into. The whole subclass is the perfect basis for an 'anti-hero'.
If you don't want it to be an issue among the group then I'd suggest trying to play it off as necessary to defeat your foes, but I honestly don't see a way to justify it as 'good'.
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My homebrew: [Subclasses] [Races] [Feats] [Discussion Thread]
This is actually an excellent point about conjuration spells. Almost all of the conjuring spells tell us that the creature becomes hostile if we lose concentration, and entries in the Monster Manual tell us that elementals and fey spirits resent being summoned.
It certainly doesn't justify this hexblade trait, but it might stop a druid from arguing against you using it!
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My homebrew: [Subclasses] [Races] [Feats] [Discussion Thread]
IF it's a problem, talk to the DM about the ability not actually trapping the soul, but just creating a spectre from the energy of death or whatever, or animating the shadow, etc.
We do bones, motherf***ker!
We do bones, motherf***ker!
This was an interesting discussion I had when I played a necromancer wizard followed by a hexblade warlock going from a one shot to a full on campaign. As a necro wizard in the one shot, I had to headbutt with a "Bury all the dead because they deserve that at least" style paladin. My argument to that was that in life, they were thieves and murderers. They were vicious monsters who contributed nothing but vile actions to the world. In death, they have the potential for redemption by serving as bodyguards for my wizard (Who was a short, "Young" human girl. Spoiler: She was 1000 and some change.) and that if it would serve the paladin's interest, I would be more than happy to discuss the issue with their chosen deity and strike a deal. For service after death, their deity would bless their souls. This changed the paladin's overall goal to be a little more iffy on the grounds that now she had to protect my skeletons and zombies so that they could earn their blessings but it made a pretty nice fit in the end.
As for my hexblade warlock, I will say that I never intended him to be anything short of a anti-hero. The "I will sin on your behalf so that you may remain pure" archetype so when it comes to spectre, his argument is generally, "He will walk on traps as to spare you pain." But if I were to try and flavor it with 'Good' I would probably flavor it along the same lines as above. A shot at redemption and making a point to thank each of them for there service upon summoning.
You only lose if you die. Any time else, there's opportunity for a come back.
This isn't my problem with the specter, but your problem is part of it.
This sort of thing doesn't seem like a "hexblade" type character to me. This is a summoner feature and the hexblade has never had anything that seems "summon"-like, nor commanding. It's just a gish-type caster. A blade-lock.
The UA hound ability fit WAY better, even though it helped ranged even more than melee. And that doesn't even touch on your point which is a forced theme of evil on a seemingly-neutral pact. This is supposedly brought about by the Raven Queen's sentient weapon the Blackrazor and in the old lore, the Raven Queen HATES intelligent undead.
In this, I'd give it something that would help it stay alive in combat more during the early levels. Hell, the Temp HP 1st level Fiend pact fits better.
I'm playing in a game. We just moved from Horde of the Dragon Queen to Rise of Tiamat.
My character's background is X-cultist (spy). I got to use the feature for the first time against a cultist in a fight and used the line "You served the cult in life, now you serve me in death."
I also regularly have summoned daemons.
The party is mostly neutral and don't really question me. I've been surprised our Paladin hasn't as he's "Hero of Faerun!". He won't wear Goggles of the Night because they conflict with his aesthetic.
I do love the feature and the ghost as been great at body blocking for the party or assisting with the flank.
Lets see, it's powerful, tempting to use, summons a clearly chaotic evil entity, and prevents the victim from being easily raised as you've just cursed their very soul. Yeah, it's definitely a team evil kind of power.
But it's also a class feature. Use it as a RP opportunity with the team, but don't let it get out of hand.
Id actually rather have the UA-Raven. Might be a bit OP with all the powers, but at least some of them.
I don't really like the Accursed specter feature because while it may be a strong asset when you get the feature at 6th LVL later on it doesn't do that much for you at all, it just becomes a transparent meat shield. I wish that later on you would be able to later on summon the cursed enemy as somebody stronger as you progress in your levels like at first it would be specter then later on it would be a Revenant and so on and so forth.
Well its arguable, in 4th Hexblades could use the Summon Otherworld Ally power (lesser in heroic tier and Greater in Epic tier), so basicaly Demons.
Now yes an Hexblade can still take the summon Devil/demon spells.
The problem i have with this feature, is that there's no synergies with the rest of the class features or invocations and that it doesn't scale very well at higher levels...
For this the UA SHadow Hound had some RP uses, even if it was incomplet.
And in the same vein you have the Hound of Ill Omen feature for the Shadow Sorcerer, i mean it let you summon a Dire wolf, wich as nicer stats then the Specter( even if the Spectre can go through objects and people), and as the ability to inflicy disadvantage on saves VS spells you sling at the target if the wolf is in 5ft of it.
Our DM houseruled something else to replace it most of the time, one was that the Warlcok could sacrifice the Soul of its vanquished foe to his Patron for power, So either a +CHA on the next damage roll or getting a spellslot back if the foe was a certain CR.
Now to be perfectly frank if you want something that fits the Hexblade best, houserule that as a lvl 6 class feature, you can use your Hexblade's curse a number of times per short rest= CHA mod +1.
Always found that for a class thats called a HEXblade, you don't get much use out of the HEXblade's Curse with only once per short rest...
Honestly in the last 5 games i've played an Hexblade in 3 different campaigns, I'VE NEVER USED THIS FEATURE ONCE, always keeping it for a boss fight or hard foe, and never needed it in the end...
there should be more features and invocations dealing around Hex's and Hexblade curse
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
I am currently playing a warlock, just hit level 6. I used the accursed specter on a cultist that ambushed us in the night (along with rogues, and other nasties) and interrogated the specter. Asked it info similar to the commune with dead spell like clerics get. It seemed to work pretty well, but the DM thinks that accursed specter is op broken for the out of combat uses you can use for it, such as information, scouting, and things like that.
Did you use homebrew rules?
Cause the Feature doesn't do that AT ALL.
You can't communicate with it (it understands the language it had living, but can't speak), unless you're asking yes/no questions and he reacts to it.
Now as far as usefullness outside combat goes, it is subpar to a Pact of the chain Familliar in everyway, so your DM is a bit wrong there.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
No, I just did it. And I think that’s the issue. We didn’t know it couldn’t speak. Should be an easy fix for next time
Ah ok i see. well its an honest mistake.
What you can do is ask it questions and have it answer yes or no, by doing a gesture or pointing at a board with Yes/No/Maybe written on it, since the Spectre understand any language it did speak in its live
Now the usefullness of this can be mitigated by the DM, since the feature never says to wich extent the Spectre keeps his past life memories/personality.
And the Description of Spectres in the MM include this "A specter is the angry, unfettered spirit of a humanoid that has been prevented from passing to the afterlife. Specters no longer possess connections to who or what they were, ".
So yeah, maybe the informations he could provide are vague or non-consistant at best.
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)