Do you think a dragon is a powerful enough being to be a patron? In our homebrew world the dragons are singular beings (I.e. there is only ever one gold dragon, one silver dragon, one red dragon etc.) .... because we have elevated dragons above there normal status do you think they would be powerful enough to be a patron ?
By default, an ancient dragon has the amount of power necessary to become a patron. And then there are dragon deities such as Bahamut. But even excluding those options, you could have an adult dragon as a patron depending on how your DM wants to go with things. For example, the invocations you gain could be a result of magic items held within the hoard of an adult dragon. And as the fluff on Draconic Bloodline sorcerers indicates, a dragon merely mingling its blood with yours can set you on the magical path. Because you should remember that all the powers and abilities gained while you level as a warlock don't have to be directly from your patron, as some can come from your own research and magical growth.
Either way, it sounds like your dragons have been elevated in such a way to be considered minor deities at the very least. So it shouldn't be hard for them to become a patron.
In our world there are only 2 gods bahamut and Tiamat ( I probably spelled both those wrong) ... they represent life and death... the creator and the destroyer.... there are also 8 ancient dragons who each represent the alignments 3 metallic, 3 chromatic, 2 stone .... all players start at true neutral and then move into one of the directs based on players choices .... Dragonborn are considered the most holy race and thus tend to be clerics and paladins ... the dragon sorcerer tend to be nobles ... while the “normal races” (human, elves, dwarfs) are low class
In our world there are only 2 gods bahamut and Tiamat ( I probably spelled both those wrong) ... they represent life and death... the creator and the destroyer.... there are also 8 ancient dragons who each represent the alignments 3 metallic, 3 chromatic, 2 stone .... all players start at true neutral and then move into one of the directs based on players choices .... Dragonborn are considered the most holy race and thus tend to be clerics and paladins ... the dragon sorcerer tend to be nobles ... while the “normal races” (human, elves, dwarfs) are low class
Really leaning hard into the dragons part of D&D, haha! But based on this kind of world, it looks like the ancients dragons would more or less serve the roles of Bahamut and Tiamat in most D&D settings. And if that is the case, they definitely have more than enough power to be a patron. Plus considering the animosity held between metallic and chromatic dragons, I'd think they definitely seek to become patrons to further help fuel their war between good and evil. As already seen by the clerics and paladins already populating the world.
So how did dragonborn come about in this world? Are they the children of the ancient dragons or Bahamut/Tiamat? Is it a matter of being touched by the divine? I.e. mortals favored by the dragon gods are changed into dragonborn?
In the beginning ... the universe was whole ... and in balance ... the great crystal dragon (balance) ruled over everything .... but nothing lasts for ever ... one day the crystal dragon crack and split into two .... in that moment Bahamant the platinum dragon (the creator of life) and Tiamat the obsidian dragon (the destroyer of life) were born. Each blaming the other for the death of their mother (The great crystal dragon) the two Devine sibilings have always been at odds.
Bahamant grea tire of the eternal stale mate created 8 magic eggs that once hatched would allow him justice to triumph over evil ... and the 8 dragon lords we’re born.
3 stuck by his side the mightiest being the ancient golden dragon (lawful good) as well as the silver (chaotic good) and bronze (neutral good) ... while 3 betrayed him and joined Tiamat. The ancient blue (lawful evil), green (neutral evil) and the fierce and terrifying ancient red dragon (chaotic evil)
final 2 left .... deciding to walk their own paths in life ... they tend to avoid the war ... the ancient white dragon (lawful neutral) holds a reverence in her heart for Bahamant... while her brother the ancient black dragon (chaotic neutral) would side with Tiamat.
With only one living dragon at a time ... succession became a concern for the dragons. They each laid a clutch of eggs ... to insure it’s life. On the event a dragon be slane, wheather by dragon or by man, its soul will return to the clutch and be reincarnated into a hatchlings.
These eggs needed protection.... and this the Dragonborn were created. Each the color of a dragon ... they have all have a calling ... to protect and serve ....
In the beginning ... the universe was whole ... and in balance ... the great crystal dragon (balance) ruled over everything .... but nothing lasts for ever ... one day the crystal dragon crack and split into two .... in that moment Bahamant the platinum dragon (the creator of life) and Tiamat the obsidian dragon (the destroyer of life) were born. Each blaming the other for the death of their mother (The great crystal dragon) the two Devine sibilings have always been at odds.
Bahamant grea tire of the eternal stale mate created 8 magic eggs that once hatched would allow him justice to triumph over evil ... and the 8 dragon lords we’re born.
I suppose the obvious question is, why can't Tiamat create her own children? But being "the destroyer of life" probably means she can't have any. Though with that material to chew on, I'd definitely go in the direction of dead offspring similar to Dracula's children in Van Helsing. As it gives Tiamat an overarching goal of finding a way to give life to her born-dead brood, so she isn't simply relegated to being a one-note villain.
Also, how did the other races come to be? Did each dragon lord make them? I could see that since they can't have any children in the traditional sense beyond their dragonborn. Or were they created by accident? For example, one origin tale for dragonborn is that they sprang forth from Io's blood after his death. So I could imagine with all the warring and dragon blood going around, some sort of life would come of it.
3 stuck by his side the mightiest being the ancient golden dragon (lawful good) as well as the silver (chaotic good) and bronze (neutral good) ... while 3 betrayed him and joined Tiamat. The ancient blue (lawful evil), green (neutral evil) and the fierce and terrifying ancient red dragon (chaotic evil)
final 2 left .... deciding to walk their own paths in life ... they tend to avoid the war ... the ancient white dragon (lawful neutral) holds a reverence in her heart for Bahamant... while her brother the ancient black dragon (chaotic neutral) would side with Tiamat.
With only one living dragon at a time ... succession became a concern for the dragons. They each laid a clutch of eggs ... to insure it’s life. On the event a dragon be slane, wheather by dragon or by man, its soul will return to the clutch and be reincarnated into a hatchlings.
So Tiamat essentially corrupted half of the eggs to side with her. Sounds up her alley. And with more or less immortal ancient dragons, I can see why they are at the top of the food chain in that world. But even still, a stalemate still does exist. So I'd imagine both sides doing whatever it takes to tip the scale in their favor. I.e. acting as patrons for warlocks, clerics, paladins and so forth. As well as bringing other races into the fold such as the dwarves for the metallics and orcs for the chromatics.
These eggs needed protection.... and this the Dragonborn were created. Each the color of a dragon ... they have all have a calling ... to protect and serve ....
Empowered watchdogs? I hope they make sure to treat their "servants" better than the vampires did with werewolves in Underworld: Rise of the Lycans. Otherwise, a revolt would practically be guaranteed.
I’ve debated about adding a third god dragon maybe something for stone dragons and then converting black and white to stone and maybe adding a true neutral ancient dragon .... this third dragon god would be “the maintainer” and rule over the neutral dragon lords .... that would make 3 greater gods, and 9 ascended dragons.
So you have the 3 good (metallics) and the 3 evil (chromatic) trying to destroy each other .... and the 3 neutral(stone) that are trying to stop the fighting.
The three greater gods (creator, maintainer, destroyer) would be hands off for the most part.
I don't see why not. Hell, according to the DMG in the Tiers of Play section, Warlocks can even be patrons once they hit level 20. If that's true, why couldn't a dragon?
So if i wanted to be a Dragon Warlock .... with a Gold Dragon as my patron ... do you think i could just take the perks from the Dragon Sorcerer Origin?
Draconian Resilience (LVL 1)
Elemental Affinity (Lvl 6)
Dragon Wings (Lvl 14)
Draconian Presence (Lvl 18)
Now would you then bar me from multi-classing into Sorcerer if you were DM?
I would think making it more distinct would be in line with the feel of 5th edition so I wouldn't borrow from the Sorcerer Draconic Ancestry but rather try to think of ways that a dragon would convince a warlock to accept it as a patron. Breath weapon or improve existing (in case of Dragon Born), better at talking with dragons or role playing with/against them, an extra attack like the multi-attack of the dragon, grow claws that are considered magical... etc....
Well I think I want to make him a brass dragon born .... who really wants to become a a gold dragon.... but that’s a problem lol ... so he becomes a warlock to a gold dragon who will help to try and turn him gold .... in exchange he has to bring magical items to add to the dragons hoard... being a gold dragon he will live up to his word and create a potion that will turn my character from a brass Dragonborn to a gold Dragonborn ... he will give me the potion once I bring him magic items worth an amount of gold decided by the dm ( so I won’t know how close I am) or what exactly will happen (bonus and such) ...
In a general setting I don't see why not. I usually think of Warlocks as someone who makes a deal with a lesser god, of a greater god. Example: A Cleric would worship Tiamat and gain power, but a Warlock would make a deal with on of Tiamat's underlings to gain power.
In generally I'd probably use the Fiendish pact for Tiamat, Celestial Pact for Bahamut. I guess the Gem dragon (neutral ones) are known to serve Sardior. I honestly don't know a huge amount of the cosmology when it comes to this. I guess I'd pick Archfey for them Gem dragons.
That said that would be for a more general Forgotten Realms campaign, you're world has a lot of background.
As for mixing in Sorcerer powers, that leads to a lot of "did I get the balance right". I think it might be better to "theme" the powers. So the "Armor of Shadows" Invocation looks like the AC bonus from Dragonic Resilience. This won't take away from anyone who wants to play a Dragon Sorcerer or if you want to Multiclass Dragon Sorcerer.
I just figured by using the draconian sourcerer as the perks it would be less homebrew. Obviously if someone else wanted to play that class it would change things .... but spell casters are few and far between in our group lol
I think it's only fair to say this post inspired me to work on a homebrew warlock subclass for draconic patrons. It's still a really rough work in progress, but I love playing around with the very modular nature of warlocks.
I have a dragonborn warlock in my game, who INSISTED on being both silver and blue scaled. I like the idea of having him choose between following either the metallic or chromatic lineage. I'm thinking about him having a vision or dream of sorts that depicts all of the dragons warring on another plain. As he continues on he'll have to make decisions that push him in one direction or the other. Thanks for the inspiration!
I’d let him do that. An evil blue dragon polymorphed into a silver Dragonborn and seduced the player’s mother. I’d only give the traits of one or the other, but I’d let the player have the two colors mixed in his scales with the role playing opportunities for being both chromatic and metallic.
Considering that a Solar (CR21) and an Empyrean (CR23) can act as celestial patrons, it seems reasonable that an ancient Dragon, which depending on the color is CR21+, could in fact be a suitable patron. Probably would need to homebrew the abilities as I don't really see them as suitable for the existing abilities except you could maybe have an Ancient Red Dragon with a reskin of the Fiend abilities since its all about fire anyways.
I'm actually running a character like this in a campaign right now! My DM ruled it that it has to be one of the fire-breathers (Red, Brass, or Gold) and that if I chose an Ancient Chromatic dragon it'd serve as a reflavored Pact of the Fiend warlock while if I chose an Ancient Metallic it'd serve as a reflavored Pact of the Celestial warlock. I also wrote a blood ritual that bound my warlock to his patron in his backstory to allow my warlock to multiclass into Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer of his Patron's species.
In generally I'd probably use the Fiendish pact for Tiamat, Celestial Pact for Bahamut.
Yeah, this makes sense. I kind of want a GOO Dragon, but I don't think either of those two are Great or Old enough. I had Jörmungand suggested as a kinda dragonish GOO...
Do you think a dragon is a powerful enough being to be a patron? In our homebrew world the dragons are singular beings (I.e. there is only ever one gold dragon, one silver dragon, one red dragon etc.) .... because we have elevated dragons above there normal status do you think they would be powerful enough to be a patron ?
By default, an ancient dragon has the amount of power necessary to become a patron. And then there are dragon deities such as Bahamut. But even excluding those options, you could have an adult dragon as a patron depending on how your DM wants to go with things. For example, the invocations you gain could be a result of magic items held within the hoard of an adult dragon. And as the fluff on Draconic Bloodline sorcerers indicates, a dragon merely mingling its blood with yours can set you on the magical path. Because you should remember that all the powers and abilities gained while you level as a warlock don't have to be directly from your patron, as some can come from your own research and magical growth.
Either way, it sounds like your dragons have been elevated in such a way to be considered minor deities at the very least. So it shouldn't be hard for them to become a patron.
In our world there are only 2 gods bahamut and Tiamat ( I probably spelled both those wrong) ... they represent life and death... the creator and the destroyer.... there are also 8 ancient dragons who each represent the alignments 3 metallic, 3 chromatic, 2 stone .... all players start at true neutral and then move into one of the directs based on players choices .... Dragonborn are considered the most holy race and thus tend to be clerics and paladins ... the dragon sorcerer tend to be nobles ... while the “normal races” (human, elves, dwarfs) are low class
In the beginning ... the universe was whole ... and in balance ... the great crystal dragon (balance) ruled over everything .... but nothing lasts for ever ... one day the crystal dragon crack and split into two .... in that moment Bahamant the platinum dragon (the creator of life) and Tiamat the obsidian dragon (the destroyer of life) were born. Each blaming the other for the death of their mother (The great crystal dragon) the two Devine sibilings have always been at odds.
Bahamant grea tire of the eternal stale mate created 8 magic eggs that once hatched would allow him justice to triumph over evil ... and the 8 dragon lords we’re born.
3 stuck by his side the mightiest being the ancient golden dragon (lawful good) as well as the silver (chaotic good) and bronze (neutral good) ... while 3 betrayed him and joined Tiamat. The ancient blue (lawful evil), green (neutral evil) and the fierce and terrifying ancient red dragon (chaotic evil)
final 2 left .... deciding to walk their own paths in life ... they tend to avoid the war ... the ancient white dragon (lawful neutral) holds a reverence in her heart for Bahamant... while her brother the ancient black dragon (chaotic neutral) would side with Tiamat.
With only one living dragon at a time ... succession became a concern for the dragons. They each laid a clutch of eggs ... to insure it’s life. On the event a dragon be slane, wheather by dragon or by man, its soul will return to the clutch and be reincarnated into a hatchlings.
These eggs needed protection.... and this the Dragonborn were created. Each the color of a dragon ... they have all have a calling ... to protect and serve ....
I’ve debated about adding a third god dragon maybe something for stone dragons and then converting black and white to stone and maybe adding a true neutral ancient dragon .... this third dragon god would be “the maintainer” and rule over the neutral dragon lords .... that would make 3 greater gods, and 9 ascended dragons.
So you have the 3 good (metallics) and the 3 evil (chromatic) trying to destroy each other .... and the 3 neutral(stone) that are trying to stop the fighting.
The three greater gods (creator, maintainer, destroyer) would be hands off for the most part.
I don't see why not. Hell, according to the DMG in the Tiers of Play section, Warlocks can even be patrons once they hit level 20. If that's true, why couldn't a dragon?
So if i wanted to be a Dragon Warlock .... with a Gold Dragon as my patron ... do you think i could just take the perks from the Dragon Sorcerer Origin?
Now would you then bar me from multi-classing into Sorcerer if you were DM?
I would think making it more distinct would be in line with the feel of 5th edition so I wouldn't borrow from the Sorcerer Draconic Ancestry but rather try to think of ways that a dragon would convince a warlock to accept it as a patron. Breath weapon or improve existing (in case of Dragon Born), better at talking with dragons or role playing with/against them, an extra attack like the multi-attack of the dragon, grow claws that are considered magical... etc....
Well I think I want to make him a brass dragon born .... who really wants to become a a gold dragon.... but that’s a problem lol ... so he becomes a warlock to a gold dragon who will help to try and turn him gold .... in exchange he has to bring magical items to add to the dragons hoard... being a gold dragon he will live up to his word and create a potion that will turn my character from a brass Dragonborn to a gold Dragonborn ... he will give me the potion once I bring him magic items worth an amount of gold decided by the dm ( so I won’t know how close I am) or what exactly will happen (bonus and such) ...
In a general setting I don't see why not.
I usually think of Warlocks as someone who makes a deal with a lesser god, of a greater god. Example: A Cleric would worship Tiamat and gain power, but a Warlock would make a deal with on of Tiamat's underlings to gain power.
In generally I'd probably use the Fiendish pact for Tiamat, Celestial Pact for Bahamut.
I guess the Gem dragon (neutral ones) are known to serve Sardior. I honestly don't know a huge amount of the cosmology when it comes to this. I guess I'd pick Archfey for them Gem dragons.
That said that would be for a more general Forgotten Realms campaign, you're world has a lot of background.
As for mixing in Sorcerer powers, that leads to a lot of "did I get the balance right". I think it might be better to "theme" the powers. So the "Armor of Shadows" Invocation looks like the AC bonus from Dragonic Resilience.
This won't take away from anyone who wants to play a Dragon Sorcerer or if you want to Multiclass Dragon Sorcerer.
I just figured by using the draconian sourcerer as the perks it would be less homebrew. Obviously if someone else wanted to play that class it would change things .... but spell casters are few and far between in our group lol
I think it's only fair to say this post inspired me to work on a homebrew warlock subclass for draconic patrons. It's still a really rough work in progress, but I love playing around with the very modular nature of warlocks.
I have a dragonborn warlock in my game, who INSISTED on being both silver and blue scaled. I like the idea of having him choose between following either the metallic or chromatic lineage. I'm thinking about him having a vision or dream of sorts that depicts all of the dragons warring on another plain. As he continues on he'll have to make decisions that push him in one direction or the other. Thanks for the inspiration!
I’d let him do that. An evil blue dragon polymorphed into a silver Dragonborn and seduced the player’s mother. I’d only give the traits of one or the other, but I’d let the player have the two colors mixed in his scales with the role playing opportunities for being both chromatic and metallic.
Professional computer geek
Considering that a Solar (CR21) and an Empyrean (CR23) can act as celestial patrons, it seems reasonable that an ancient Dragon, which depending on the color is CR21+, could in fact be a suitable patron. Probably would need to homebrew the abilities as I don't really see them as suitable for the existing abilities except you could maybe have an Ancient Red Dragon with a reskin of the Fiend abilities since its all about fire anyways.
I'm actually running a character like this in a campaign right now! My DM ruled it that it has to be one of the fire-breathers (Red, Brass, or Gold) and that if I chose an Ancient Chromatic dragon it'd serve as a reflavored Pact of the Fiend warlock while if I chose an Ancient Metallic it'd serve as a reflavored Pact of the Celestial warlock. I also wrote a blood ritual that bound my warlock to his patron in his backstory to allow my warlock to multiclass into Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer of his Patron's species.
Yeah, this makes sense. I kind of want a GOO Dragon, but I don't think either of those two are Great or Old enough. I had Jörmungand suggested as a kinda dragonish GOO...
PbP 🎲: Tyekanik; Moneo Noree; Korba Muris; & occasional DM:
But what about kobolds?