A warlocks power doesn't really come from *just* spells, but a combination of spells, pacts, and pact boons. It's like comparing a ranger to a cleric and asking who can resurrect better.
Obviously the cleric, who gets access to True Resurrection.
However, unlike the wizard, warlocks have the strongest at will spell in the game. Eldrict Blast. Even with just a single level you still gain its benefits and with two, agonizing blast gives you a track of multi attacks equivalent to a Fighter without needing to take all your levels if you multi. Wizards get Wish, which is the strongest spell in the game according to its description.
There's also the extra 1 spell warlocks get for level 6-9 spells.
Powerword Kill and there goes your wizard if he doesn't counter.
Poison is a commonly resisted/immune damage type, whereas Eldritch Blast is Force, the least resisted/immune.
Mathwise, 4d10+20 force is better than 4d12 poison.
Poison spray also has a 10ft range. Toll the Dead however is 1d12 necrotic (which is one of the lesser resisted types, unless your fighting undead) and uses a Wisdom save which is a commonly low state for NPCs and a common drop state for Non-cleric/Monk/Rangers unless a player is the party scout (which usually means all but 1 or 2 of 4-6 member parties) This in general means its actually higher hit than Eldritch blast resulting in similar Damage per round.
Where the Warlock out shines the Wizard is Eldritch invocations and out of combat Role playing spell casting. The invocations that alter eldritch blast make it the most damaging and most flexible crowd control cantrip with the longest range... if you go that route. If you take "Mask of Many Faces", "one with the shadows", "Eldritch Sight", "Witch Sight", "Visions of Distant Realms", "Whispers of the Grave", "Gaze of Two Minds", "Eyes of the Rune Keeper", "Beguiling Influence", and "Ghostly Gaze" you can be a spy and reap chaos like no other particularly if your Patron of the Great Old One with the ability to pass information without speaking and your immune to mind reading and you can make a thrall of key person. Warlocks can also pick story spells like charm, Illusory Script, Unseen servant, Enthrall, Dispel Magic, Misty Step, Hallucinatory Terrain, Scrying, Contsct other Plane, and Dream. Then cast them out of combat knowing you can take a short rest after and restore your spell slots before risking battle. This is where a warlock shines over a wizard because there is a cost here for the wizard that might make them hesitate to cast them where a warlock cast rests and keeps moving usually relying on eldritch blast, a pact weapon, or a familiar for combat almost making these spells cantrips for warlocks.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Toll the Dead however is 1d12 necrotic (which is one of the lesser resisted types, unless your fighting undead) and uses a Wisdom save which is a commonly low state for NPCs and a common drop state for Non-cleric/Monk/Rangers unless a player is the party scout (which usually means all but 1 or 2 of 4-6 member parties) This in general means its actually higher hit than Eldritch blast resulting in similar Damage per round.
Necrotic's great until you have to fight undead (or celestials, which is much less likely but I'm mentioning it for completeness.) Currently there's only one monster that doesn't take full damage from force.
If Agonizing Blast is on the table, it's no contest. Eldritch Blast can add your CHA to the damage with every single beam, while Empowered Evocation only works on one damage roll doesn't work with Toll the Dead. It's also relatively easy to get advantage on attack rolls , while forcing enemies to be worse at saving throws is hard (the only spells that come to mind are Bane - which has an attack counterpart in Bless - and Bestow Curse.)
Toll the Dead however is 1d12 necrotic (which is one of the lesser resisted types, unless your fighting undead) and uses a Wisdom save which is a commonly low state for NPCs and a common drop state for Non-cleric/Monk/Rangers unless a player is the party scout (which usually means all but 1 or 2 of 4-6 member parties) This in general means its actually higher hit than Eldritch blast resulting in similar Damage per round.
Necrotic's great until you have to fight undead (or celestials, which is much less likely but I'm mentioning it for completeness.) Currently there's only one monster that doesn't take full damage from force.
If Agonizing Blast is on the table, it's no contest. Eldritch Blast can add your CHA to the damage with every single beam, while Empowered Evocation only works on one damage roll doesn't work with Toll the Dead. It's also relatively easy to get advantage on attack rolls , while forcing enemies to be worse at saving throws is hard (the only spells that come to mind are Bane - which has an attack counterpart in Bless - and Bestow Curse.)
The charisma bonus received for eldritch blast damage does not mean eldritch blast is the best spell ever. Wizards could take eldritch blast with spell sniper and have 20 int and 20 charisma build with Empowered Evocation but the week point their is Empowered Evocation vs the Agonizing Blast Eldritch invocation.
So your saying Eldritch blast is the "BEST CANTRIP EVER" but its actually just that Eldritch Invocations are what make warlocks good not the spells. Which was the point of my whole comment. If a 20 int and 20 charisma wizard level 20 took magic initiate warlock with eldritch blast, toll the dead, and hex... Casting Eldritch Blast average 22 if all 3 hit, Casting Toll the dead average 26 on one hit, so on their own toll the dead is likely to do more damage. The wizard can add hex to eldritch blast for 36 (if all 3 hit) now its winning but then its not doing it alone. So your argument is about the spells flexibility based on class features... but if we are talking about flexible of a warlock casting eldritch blast using invocations and 4 spell slots then the comparison is going be the wizard with 22 spell slots is likely casting scorching ray at level 5 plus hex instead of a can trip which is 42+21=63... So if we are arguing best spell manipulation the wizards beat warlocks hands down due to select and spell slot options.
Its eldritch invocations that make warlocks (and eldritch blast) good. Not that Warlocks have better spells. Warlocks are best with they know that and use invocations and out of combat spells due to the ability to recharge them more freely out of combat. In my opinion.
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
The charisma bonus received for eldritch blast damage does not mean eldritch blast is the best spell ever. Wizards could take eldritch blast with spell sniper and have 20 int and 20 charisma build with Empowered Evocation but the week point their is Empowered Evocation vs the Agonizing Blast Eldritch invocation.
Empowered Evocation only works with wizard evocation spells. Learning it through Spell Sniper won't turn it into a wizard spell, and thus Empowered Evocation won't work. Even if it did work, they'd only be adding their INT once.
So your saying Eldritch blast is the "BEST CANTRIP EVER" but its actually just that Eldritch Invocations are what make warlocks good not the spells.
It's both. It only truly shines in the hands of a Warlock but if it didn't have multiple attack rolls it also wouldn't be anything special compared to an Evocation Wizard or a Draconic Sorcerer.
Which was the point of my whole comment. If a 20 int and 20 charisma wizard level 20 took magic initiate warlock with eldritch blast, toll the dead, and hex... Casting Eldritch Blast average 22 if all 3 hit, Casting Toll the dead average 26 on one hit, so on their own toll the dead is likely to do more damage.
Sure, but you could've taken DEX or CON to 20 and instead took CHA. If you never get hit or have to maintain concentration, that's great, but in practice that's not a great idea.
If you can name one REALLY god spell that only warlocks have, then i will be impressed
If you are asking this question to basically say Wizard is the better pure spell casting class, then yes, Wizard wins as a pure spell casting class. The biggest limitation to Warlocks as casters isn't the spells they can select, but that they only get 2 spell slots for a long time and then finally a 3rd one at higher levels.
But then, you don't play a Warlock to be the best pure spell caster. You play a Warlock for the versatility the class provides with it's boons and Eldritch Invocations. Want to be a gish, go hexblade or pact of the blade, want to be the best Ritual Caster in the game, Go pact of the Tome and take the Book of Ancient Secrets Invocation. Now you can get ritual spells from any class, plus a bunch of extra cantrips from any spell casting class. So I can get your Poison Spray, along with cantrips like Cutting Words to give disadvantage on an attack and Spare the Dying to stabilize a party member when they go down. Cantrips that aren't available to a Wizard unless they take the Magic Initiate feat.
Wizard is a great class, but then Warlock is as well, just for different reasons.
1. It's both. It only truly shines in the hands of a Warlock but if it didn't have multiple attack rolls it also wouldn't be anything special compared to an Evocation Wizard or a Draconic Sorcerer.
2. Sure, but you could've taken DEX or CON to 20 and instead took CHA. If you never get hit or have to maintain concentration, that's great, but in practice that's not a great idea.
1. Multiple attacks also allows for multiple misses. As a result it actually tends do lower 1vs1 damage mathematically because your getting a mix of more hits and misses. The result is that Eldritch blast WILL do less damage than Toll the Dead the majority of the time....with the exception of undead which often have resistance. The real advantage of multiple attacks is spreading damage like an AoE without hitting your allies over multiple weak AND low AC enemies. That is circumstantial because if they are not weak your better of focusing fire to eliminate numbers faster and if they have high AC your likely to miss meaning you may need to focus fire to hit the target you need the most. That is not to say the circumstance of that is not common enough to justify wanting the spell. Just based on the spell alone, I would take both knowing that If I had a single non-undead target or wanted to focus on a the Barbarian/Orc/Tank it likely is way easier to hit targeting a wisdom save and its likely going to do more damage (average 26) than if all 3 eldritch blast hit (average 22) using level 20 as and example. I would take Eldritch blast as an option for clearing out large numbers of low AC Low health minions mixed up in melee with allies where I can't AoE without hitting my friends or if I have a low AC but high wisdom target like a druid. At the same time if I have scorching ray (which as a wizard I likely do) I am going to use a 4th level scorching ray with an average damage of 28 before eldritch blast or cast it at a higher level to target more minions. For that matter I could cast Magic Missile at 2nd level for at an average damage of 14 but a 100% hit rate for about the same DPR or cast it at level 6 for an average of 28 damage target the same 4 enemies twice each at 100% chance to hit (bit wasteful for spell slot efficiency though at 6th level). My Point is with 22 spell slots and 89 spell levels across them you have better options then eldritch blast for spreading damage and toll the dead is going to do more targeted damage. That means you would only ever want to use eldritch blast for a post battle at camp situation where your attacked by kobalts when you try to sleep and have exhausted your spells... that's pretty unusual (So unusual it has never happened in any group I have ever played in). Warlocks on the other hand can manipulate it with eldritch invocations to make it do more damage and interesting crow control effects...if they take them. If you have a Warlock who takes all the spy eldritch invocations instead I honestly believe they are better off Toll the dead unless fighting un-dead.
2. What? I could be a wizard "face" for the group. Being a ranged caster you don't need high dex most of the time if the tank does his job and if you don't take any combat concentration spell you don't have to worry about taking a hit and losing it. I have built such a character. It works fine. Mages don't have more than 18 AC most of the time and in later game they are just going to hit you consistently anyway. So you take blink, mirror image, mage armor, and shield casting them at the same time.... yep ...not there when its not my turn half the time and move 10ft without taking attacks of opportunity, when I am there you a 50% chance its not me your targeting, if it is me with mage armor and shield I have and 18 AC ... and none of it is concentration.... Unless you have AoE attacks I am good with an 8 con & dex. :)
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The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Well the strongest point is what a lvl m18 Wizard gets, they can just add shield and Mirror image to ability. Infinite shield and mirro image castings make for someone hard to hit. I am a firm believer in maxing dex for the AC bonus And having the spell mage armor if not a Bladesinger gives an AC of 23 with mage armor. Bladesinger may be higher if the get magical studded leather or other protective items.
The warlock's heavy handed limit to 2 spells for the majority of the game, and barely improving to just 3 at higher levels and 4 at very high levels (Unless those Mystic Arcanum don't consume a spell slot. I wouldn't know, never played a Warlock past 10) makes it feel very underwhelming. Two spells. Then you're done casting basically for the day, if you're lucky you'll get 1 short rest. (If Mystic Arcanum are separate and basically 1/day spells that don't count against your 2/day slots, then this problem might be relieved to a degree by making Mystic Arcanum work from level 1, so one for every spell level not just the higher spell levels)
I almost don't even consider them a caster. Especially when so many Invocations have the audacity to consume spell slots on top of losing out on an Invocation. To me Invocations are supposed to be at-will or permanent effects on the character, changes to who they are as they progress after the image of their patron. Relative few invocations are actually like that in this edition, while many consume spell slots or are usable only on occasion. Or worse, both. They aren't even amazing effects you might expect from that level of overbalance. (I basically don't even consider any invocation that expends a spell slot. Which not only require a spell slot, but 1/day on top of that. Invocations are supposed to be special and their own thing. Like, stop, it's already dead.)
Invocation options feel way too limited and slanted towards fleeting effects and spell slot dependency, which always feel so underwhelming. Some even feel weaker than feats, and in many cases I'd rather have a feat than some 1/day spell-slot consuming invocation.
Just yesterday I made an active effort to dig through all the material / books I could get my hands on hoping for some new invocations and found a few but my problem persisted.
Overall the Warlock is incredibly dissatisfying to me, and yet it's still all I play. (I've never played Wizards before due to an aversion to prepared casting, I always went with sorcerers because their magic felt more tangible and their own, but sorcerer in this edition feels a little weird at a glance and I fell in love with the Warlock a few years back so it's the first thing I looked at when 5e came out).
Especially with the "Short Rest" mechanic being an hour. If you can spare an hour most the time you can spare 8. You can't just casually put a dungeon or chain of events on hold for an hour. "Short" rest my bum, when I read it I assumed it was going to be 15 minutes then was blown away.
But it's hard to beat the warlock for flavor and roleplaying potential, which is why it's still all I play. Out of combat use of abilities is my favorite part of the game which isn't as spoiled by the overly limited casting / spell slots.
1. Multiple attacks also allows for multiple misses. As a result it actually tends do lower 1vs1 damage mathematically because your getting a mix of more hits and misses.The result is that Eldritch blast WILL do less damage than Toll the Dead the majority of the time....with the exception of undead which often have resistance.
Toll the Dead will also yield a mix of saving throw successes and failures. The average damage of EB is N(1d10 + hit bonuses) * X * 1.05 where N is your number of beams and X is your hit rate. Toll the Dead will deal Nd8 against unharmed enemies and Nd12 * Y against harmed enemies where Y is the chances of your enemy failing a CON save. It's pretty easy to see the odds are stacked in EB's favor if you have Hex, Agonizing Blast or Hexblade's Curse.
That's setting aside the fact that EB is less likely to leave you with 0 damage on any given turn, gives you multiple opportunities to ruin a spellcaster's concentration, and it's way easier to get advantage on attack rolls than force disadvantage on saving throws.
Seriously Warlocks are just plain cool...that’s why we play them! Lol. You can have your squishy wizards in dusty towers ...I’ll just make pact with with the Raven Queen or a fiend from the Nine Hells to get my power.
My favorite class has always been the warlock. Let me start by saying this. I will go to the end of time talking about min/max if you want... I recommend you don't start there.
To clarify on short rests, you should have a few throughout the day. However, if you want to cast a bunch of spells, the warlock is not for you. I would recommend the sorcerer instead.
Unless there is something mechanical about one class you love, I would recommend going for a wizard if you want to play a spellcaster.
As a warlock, you are at the mercy of your DMs interpretation of short rests. Eldritch blast is a great spell, but it creates really boring gameplay.
If I see bad guy zap it If good guy friends and talk when he finds out or I get bored zap it
I recommen you google treantmonks guide to wizard 5e. It may inspire you.
Dragonborn123456, its pretty much a tie depending on your playstyle.
Wizards have the largest repertoire of spells available to any class, have access to Wish and can deal damage of almost any type. They're also squishy as hell.
Warlocks are a lot bulkier than Wizards, can cast more spells "at will" and can regain multiple mid level spell slots per short rest. Of course, they only have 4 flexible spell slots at all.
In the end, it depends on your character. If you only want to sling spells from a distance and control the flow of combat, probs better to go Wizard. If you want to fight both melee or range and want more customisation, go Warlock.
A good example is Critical Role Campaign 2.
Caleb the Wizard:
Has proven clutch in several combat encounters and has almost died in most of them.
Outside combat, he's fairly quiet, not really providing much in the way of constant support, outside Alarm and Leomund's Tiny Hut.
Fjord the Warlock:
Often gets right into the thick of combat but can also fight from a distance if needed.
Outside combat, his at will Disguise Self has proved useful several times and he often leads the party (due to his high CHA stats).
I don't think of a Warlock as a full caster like a wizard, even tho it kind of is. I think of it as a more caster version of a 1/2 or 1/3 caster, so 2/3 caster. I prefer the monk or rogue tactics of hit and move, with darkness and melee attacks and eldritch smite. Which you can't do as well with a wizard.
I prefer warlocks over wizards for my characters because i feel like wizard that is caught off guard is kind of stuck. Given time to prepare sure wizards are great, but going into a dungeon thinking vampires and finding crazy celestial is going to ruin your spell selection. In that situation I feel like warlock without spells is better than a wizard without spells.
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If you can name one REALLY god spell that only warlocks have, then i will be impressed
Elliott Neve
Eldritch Blast, Hex, Armor of Agathys, Hunger of Hadar.
Honorable mention goes to Eldritch Smite. It's not a spell, but it does eat up a Warlock spell slot and can knock adult dragons out of the sky.
A warlocks power doesn't really come from *just* spells, but a combination of spells, pacts, and pact boons. It's like comparing a ranger to a cleric and asking who can resurrect better.
Obviously the cleric, who gets access to True Resurrection.
However, unlike the wizard, warlocks have the strongest at will spell in the game. Eldrict Blast. Even with just a single level you still gain its benefits and with two, agonizing blast gives you a track of multi attacks equivalent to a Fighter without needing to take all your levels if you multi. Wizards get Wish, which is the strongest spell in the game according to its description.
There's also the extra 1 spell warlocks get for level 6-9 spells.
Powerword Kill and there goes your wizard if he doesn't counter.
True Polymorph. Hey, he's a dragon now.
Ah, incorrect, wizards have Poison spray
Elliott Neve
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Empowered Evocation only works with wizard evocation spells. Learning it through Spell Sniper won't turn it into a wizard spell, and thus Empowered Evocation won't work. Even if it did work, they'd only be adding their INT once.
The lack of inflection in text means that a reader of any post adds their own inflection as they "verbalize" it in their head. I write long and repetitive in an effort to be clear and avoid my intent from being skewed or inverted. I am also bad at examples. It is common for people to skim my posts pull out the idea they think I mean or want to argue against or focus on my bad example instead of the point I am actually trying to make. I apologies for the confusion my failure to be clear and concise creates.
Well the strongest point is what a lvl m18 Wizard gets, they can just add shield and Mirror image to ability. Infinite shield and mirro image castings make for someone hard to hit. I am a firm believer in maxing dex for the AC bonus And having the spell mage armor if not a Bladesinger gives an AC of 23 with mage armor. Bladesinger may be higher if the get magical studded leather or other protective items.
The warlock's heavy handed limit to 2 spells for the majority of the game, and barely improving to just 3 at higher levels and 4 at very high levels (Unless those Mystic Arcanum don't consume a spell slot. I wouldn't know, never played a Warlock past 10) makes it feel very underwhelming. Two spells. Then you're done casting basically for the day, if you're lucky you'll get 1 short rest. (If Mystic Arcanum are separate and basically 1/day spells that don't count against your 2/day slots, then this problem might be relieved to a degree by making Mystic Arcanum work from level 1, so one for every spell level not just the higher spell levels)
I almost don't even consider them a caster. Especially when so many Invocations have the audacity to consume spell slots on top of losing out on an Invocation. To me Invocations are supposed to be at-will or permanent effects on the character, changes to who they are as they progress after the image of their patron. Relative few invocations are actually like that in this edition, while many consume spell slots or are usable only on occasion. Or worse, both. They aren't even amazing effects you might expect from that level of overbalance. (I basically don't even consider any invocation that expends a spell slot. Which not only require a spell slot, but 1/day on top of that. Invocations are supposed to be special and their own thing. Like, stop, it's already dead.)
Invocation options feel way too limited and slanted towards fleeting effects and spell slot dependency, which always feel so underwhelming. Some even feel weaker than feats, and in many cases I'd rather have a feat than some 1/day spell-slot consuming invocation.
Just yesterday I made an active effort to dig through all the material / books I could get my hands on hoping for some new invocations and found a few but my problem persisted.
Overall the Warlock is incredibly dissatisfying to me, and yet it's still all I play. (I've never played Wizards before due to an aversion to prepared casting, I always went with sorcerers because their magic felt more tangible and their own, but sorcerer in this edition feels a little weird at a glance and I fell in love with the Warlock a few years back so it's the first thing I looked at when 5e came out).
Especially with the "Short Rest" mechanic being an hour. If you can spare an hour most the time you can spare 8. You can't just casually put a dungeon or chain of events on hold for an hour. "Short" rest my bum, when I read it I assumed it was going to be 15 minutes then was blown away.
But it's hard to beat the warlock for flavor and roleplaying potential, which is why it's still all I play. Out of combat use of abilities is my favorite part of the game which isn't as spoiled by the overly limited casting / spell slots.
That seems fair.
Elliott Neve
Seriously Warlocks are just plain cool...that’s why we play them! Lol. You can have your squishy wizards in dusty towers ...I’ll just make pact with with the Raven Queen or a fiend from the Nine Hells to get my power.
Although wizards aren’t so bad...
My favorite class has always been the warlock. Let me start by saying this. I will go to the end of time talking about min/max if you want... I recommend you don't start there.
To clarify on short rests, you should have a few throughout the day. However, if you want to cast a bunch of spells, the warlock is not for you. I would recommend the sorcerer instead.
Unless there is something mechanical about one class you love, I would recommend going for a wizard if you want to play a spellcaster.
As a warlock, you are at the mercy of your DMs interpretation of short rests. Eldritch blast is a great spell, but it creates really boring gameplay.
I recommen you google treantmonks guide to wizard 5e. It may inspire you.
Wait so witch is beter. Wizard or warlock?
Dragonborn123456, its pretty much a tie depending on your playstyle.
In the end, it depends on your character. If you only want to sling spells from a distance and control the flow of combat, probs better to go Wizard. If you want to fight both melee or range and want more customisation, go Warlock.
A good example is Critical Role Campaign 2.
P.s. Pretty sure witches only exist as homebrew.
I don't think of a Warlock as a full caster like a wizard, even tho it kind of is. I think of it as a more caster version of a 1/2 or 1/3 caster, so 2/3 caster. I prefer the monk or rogue tactics of hit and move, with darkness and melee attacks and eldritch smite. Which you can't do as well with a wizard.
I prefer warlocks over wizards for my characters because i feel like wizard that is caught off guard is kind of stuck. Given time to prepare sure wizards are great, but going into a dungeon thinking vampires and finding crazy celestial is going to ruin your spell selection. In that situation I feel like warlock without spells is better than a wizard without spells.