Paladin 1/ Celestial Warlock X the best multiclass subclass/better than straight Warlock?

The following is long and a matter of opinion, so please bear with me.

From my research, like Rangers, the Warlock capstone seems rather lacking (especially considering you get a half as powerful ability back at level 2). So, to me, you are better off starting with a dip in another class and building around that. I suppose my first question is: do you agree, or are you better off not delaying your warlock levels?

Originally, my fantasy build was Fighter 1/Warlock 19 to replace the level 20 capstone while still ensuring I not only got the level 19 epic boon, but building around it and seating vengeance in maximizing my health so that when I can come back from a death save twice with half health I get as much health as possible. This is kind of a side question, but what do you think of this strategy?

However, recently I was inspired by a Treatmonk build on Youtube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gbHpTnJL_kc) that revolved around using the Paladin spell Searing Smite with Warlock spell slots and a Celestial Warlock ability to add my charisma to fire spells like these to do extra damage each time it is dealt (both on my turn and the opponents). So, since then I have admired the Paladin 1/Celestial Warlock 6+ build. Are you all familiar with this concept? What do you think of the build?

https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/138128127

Anyway, my main question is that if a warlock dip is in fact optimal for a warlock, is the Paladin 1/Celestial X build the most optimal option due to their synergy? I have read the Great Old One is the better patron, but that is designed with a straight Warlock 20 build in mind.

One last point and related question. It is worth noting that this build also revolves around the Pact of the Blade. From what I have gathered, not only is PotB the best for multiclassing Warlocks, but it seems like the best to build around period, further encouraging the argument that Warlocks are better off dipping. Do you all concur?

if you have read up to this point, I thank you. I worry that I may get some hate for looking for the most powerful build or trying to “win DnD,” but the community has been good to me so far. Please respect my sincere questions. This is purely out of curiosity and fascination of the game. I will likely play a Paladin/Warlock simply because I find the combination fun. I just wanted your opinions.

Thank you.

Quote from Actionsparda >>

The following is long and a matter of opinion, so please bear with me.

From my research, like Rangers, the Warlock capstone seems rather lacking (especially considering you get a half as powerful ability back at level 2). So, to me, you are better off starting with a dip in another class and building around that. I suppose my first question is: do you agree, or are you better off not delaying your warlock levels?

Originally, my fantasy build was Fighter 1/Warlock 19 to replace the level 20 capstone while still ensuring I not only got the level 19 epic boon, but building around it and seating vengeance in maximizing my health so that when I can come back from a death save twice with half health I get as much health as possible. This is kind of a side question, but what do you think of this strategy?

However, recently I was inspired by a Treatmonk build on Youtube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gbHpTnJL_kc) that revolved around using the Paladin spell Searing Smite with Warlock spell slots and a Celestial Warlock ability to add my charisma to fire spells like these to do extra damage each time it is dealt (both on my turn and the opponents). So, since then I have admired the Paladin 1/Celestial Warlock 6+ build. Are you all familiar with this concept? What do you think of the build?

https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/138128127

Anyway, my main question is that if a warlock dip is in fact optimal for a warlock, is the Paladin 1/Celestial X build the most optimal option due to their synergy? I have read the Great Old One is the better patron, but that is designed with a straight Warlock 20 build in mind.

One last point and related question. It is worth noting that this build also revolves around the Pact of the Blade. From what I have gathered, not only is PotB the best for multiclassing Warlocks, but it seems like the best to build around period, further encouraging the argument that Warlocks are better off dipping. Do you all concur?

if you have read up to this point, I thank you. I worry that I may get some hate for looking for the most powerful build or trying to “win DnD,” but the community has been good to me so far. Please respect my sincere questions. This is purely out of curiosity and fascination of the game. I will likely play a Paladin/Warlock simply because I find the combination fun. I just wanted your opinions.

Thank you.

 1 level of paladin is a solid option as is a celestial warlock, but there is enough variety in roles and player options that I would not automatically say that PotB 1 pally, celestial warlock is the strongest. Fey locks get more mobility, fiend locks are even more survivable. Blade uses a lot of invocations to work and depending on the campaign the utility invocations can be more useful. The option listed is strong offensively, decent defensively and provides solid healing support and some ok control options, but will definitely struggle in the utility department by comparison to other warlock builds.

Quote from Aquilontune >>

Quote from Actionsparda >>

The following is long and a matter of opinion, so please bear with me.

From my research, like Rangers, the Warlock capstone seems rather lacking (especially considering you get a half as powerful ability back at level 2). So, to me, you are better off starting with a dip in another class and building around that. I suppose my first question is: do you agree, or are you better off not delaying your warlock levels?

Originally, my fantasy build was Fighter 1/Warlock 19 to replace the level 20 capstone while still ensuring I not only got the level 19 epic boon, but building around it and seating vengeance in maximizing my health so that when I can come back from a death save twice with half health I get as much health as possible. This is kind of a side question, but what do you think of this strategy?

However, recently I was inspired by a Treatmonk build on Youtube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gbHpTnJL_kc) that revolved around using the Paladin spell Searing Smite with Warlock spell slots and a Celestial Warlock ability to add my charisma to fire spells like these to do extra damage each time it is dealt (both on my turn and the opponents). So, since then I have admired the Paladin 1/Celestial Warlock 6+ build. Are you all familiar with this concept? What do you think of the build?

https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/138128127

Anyway, my main question is that if a warlock dip is in fact optimal for a warlock, is the Paladin 1/Celestial X build the most optimal option due to their synergy? I have read the Great Old One is the better patron, but that is designed with a straight Warlock 20 build in mind.

One last point and related question. It is worth noting that this build also revolves around the Pact of the Blade. From what I have gathered, not only is PotB the best for multiclassing Warlocks, but it seems like the best to build around period, further encouraging the argument that Warlocks are better off dipping. Do you all concur?

if you have read up to this point, I thank you. I worry that I may get some hate for looking for the most powerful build or trying to “win DnD,” but the community has been good to me so far. Please respect my sincere questions. This is purely out of curiosity and fascination of the game. I will likely play a Paladin/Warlock simply because I find the combination fun. I just wanted your opinions.

Thank you.

 1 level of paladin is a solid option as is a celestial warlock, but there is enough variety in roles and player options that I would not automatically say that PotB 1 pally, celestial warlock is the strongest. Fey locks get more mobility, fiend locks are even more survivable. Blade uses a lot of invocations to work and depending on the campaign the utility invocations can be more useful. The option listed is strong offensively, decent defensively and provides solid healing support and some ok control options, but will definitely struggle in the utility department by comparison to other warlock builds.

 That’s fair. While I could argue DnD is based mostly around combat, that certainly isn’t all it’s about. I didn’t mention this before, but back in 5.0 I actually went with mask of many faces and the actor feat. Of course, this was before devouring blade existed, but I digress.

Thank you for your input!

 I suppose my first question is: do you agree, or are you better off not delaying your warlock levels?

What level are you starting out?  If you start out level 1 then no, you should at least get level 5 then consider.  

If you are starting off 3 or higher, then maybe. Start off 10, then yes, why not.   If not starting at 1, it makes sense to start with Paladin to be first level.

my main question is that if a warlock dip is in fact optimal for a warlock,

I am not in agreement that a dip is optimal, just very good.

One last point and related question. It is worth noting that this build also revolves around the Pact of the Blade. From what I have gathered, not only is PotB the best for multiclassing Warlocks, but it seems like the best to build around period, further encouraging the argument that Warlocks are better off dipping. Do you all concur?

I do not concur and feel that if you are doing pact of the blade, getting melee classes are a way to not get so many fighter type invocations, that dip allows you more non fighter invocations.

Quote from Character77006 >>

 I suppose my first question is: do you agree, or are you better off not delaying your warlock levels?

What level are you starting out?  If you start out level 1 then no, you should at least get level 5 then consider.  

If you are starting off 3 or higher, then maybe. Start off 10, then yes, why not.   If not starting at 1, it makes sense to start with Paladin to be first level.

my main question is that if a warlock dip is in fact optimal for a warlock,

I am not in agreement that a dip is optimal, just very good.

One last point and related question. It is worth noting that this build also revolves around the Pact of the Blade. From what I have gathered, not only is PotB the best for multiclassing Warlocks, but it seems like the best to build around period, further encouraging the argument that Warlocks are better off dipping. Do you all concur?

I do not concur and feel that if you are doing pact of the blade, getting melee classes are a way to not get so many fighter type invocations, that dip allows you more non fighter invocations.

 But don’t you loose the ability to use heavy armor if you don’t start with Paladin at level 1? Either way, you would be stuck with light armor and at least a 13+ strength. A bad combination, is it not?

i do not quite understand your last comment either. I would think you would want more fighter type invocations with a multiclass like fighter or paladin to synergies better. Can you elaborate? I am sincerely curious!

I will agree with the core idea that the warlock capstone is pretty bad. It wasn't a great one in 2014, its even worse in 2024 when you get 1/2 of it at level 2. But that only matters if you are actually going to 20 and actually play there long enough to feel it. So if I were to multiclass it would be for the concept it brings to the table not some issue with me at 20. Is the paladin/lock combo good. Well if going blade pact I feel some kind of multi is almost always mechanically beneficial to the lack of defense on the warlock, maybe not necessary but it helps a lot. And a heavy armor class is a solid choice for that. I'd start with them tough to get that heavy armor, I'd get my strength so its moving towards 15 so I can wear it and that will also satisfy heavy weapon mastery. Paladin has some synergy with warlock so its a good choice. I think it will work fine.

Quote from MyDudeicus >>

I will agree with the core idea that the warlock capstone is pretty bad. It wasn't a great one in 2014, its even worse in 2024 when you get 1/2 of it at level 2. But that only matters if you are actually going to 20 and actually play there long enough to feel it. So if I were to multiclass it would be for the concept it brings to the table not some issue with me at 20. Is the paladin/lock combo good. Well if going blade pact I feel some kind of multi is almost always mechanically beneficial to the lack of defense on the warlock, maybe not necessary but it helps a lot. And a heavy armor class is a solid choice for that. I'd start with them tough to get that heavy armor, I'd get my strength so its moving towards 15 so I can wear it and that will also satisfy heavy weapon mastery. Paladin has some synergy with warlock so its a good choice. I think it will work fine.

 You make a valid point in your logic. I agree with not multiclassing warlock if it would make it worse somehow or didn’t synergies in some way. I think we both agree it does of course, but I appreciate seeing your thought process written out. Thank you!

Sorry to revive this post, but I had a similar question and figured it would be better to just ask it here.

I have seen different older builds where they go up to level 6 in paladin for the aura, but in doing so not only limit the Warlock build to 14 and it’s spell progression, but also prevent it from receiving an epic boon. I have seen some go level 7 with same problem with loosing the level 14 feature of the Warlock. So, why bot go to level 8? Heck, rules as written, one could get two epic boons that way. Then again, it prevents me from maxing my Constitution and Charisma as well as getting 20+ in Constitution via an epic boon.

i guess the things I’m trying to ask is should I take the Paladin levels beyond 1, if so by how much, and also which paladin subclass synergies well with Celestial Warlock as a multiclass?

There are really 3 break points I would consider for a Paladin/Warlock Multiclass: 1, 3, or 6.

1 gets you just the basics, a couple available Smites, Armor, and Weapon Masteries.

3 gets you a subclass: I think Devotion or Vengeance are the best picks for multiclassing with their Channel Divinity powers. The first gives you a crazy bonus to hit if you are Charisma-focused since you will be adding your Charisma mod twice (once from Pact of the Blade, once from Sacred Weapon). The second grants you reliable and easy-to-get advantage on all of your attacks, which can feel really awesome at the table (especially if you happen to pair it with the Elven Accuracy feat).

6 gets you Aura of Protection. This is an awesome feature, but is really hard to slog through the levels below unless you happen to be starting at very high levels. If you are starting from levels 1-3 like most campaigns, this option is a real slog.

8...can work, but it takes a long time to get to the point where the benefits are worth it. So unless you really want Aura of Protection and an Epic Boon(s), and/or you are starting the campaign at very high levels, this is a tough sell as many levels would be better off powering up your Warlock abilities. I will mention, this might not be a bad option to keep in your back pocket to replace a character that happens to die at high levels.

Which route to take will greatly depend on what level your campaign is expected to reach. The vast majority of campaigns end by level 15, so I would probably not take more than 3 levels in a Paladin in those cases.

in 2024, you could use divine favor and devouring blade, along with triggering the level 6 ability of warlock.

Quote from adammpettigrew2656b23ebb >>

in 2024, you could use divine favor and devouring blade, along with triggering the level 6 ability of warlock.

 …I never thought of that…

Guess I’ll have to make some adjustments.

Thanks for the tip friend!