Ok, so I'm late to the party. Very very late. But I'm playing a Warlock for the past year plus, he's now 6th level. Archfey, pact of the tome.
Here's something I'd like to throw into the topic: Charisma isn't just speaking skill, personality, performance or even presence. It's also understanding the audience and the affectation of emotion. In short, Charisma is the EQ (emotional quotient) to intelligence's IQ.
It's not a lack of pure intellect, so much as how one's mental and social engagement works. So, one could be a nerdy, socially awkward Warlock and still have a high charisma because in small groups or in certain social situations, they're just fine. This could hold true when if they're not natural extroverts like a bard usually is.
For example, a pact of the fiend Tiefling might be really good at scaring the poop out of someone because they understand that intimidation plus flaming eyes and certain invocations or spells result in involuntary excretion and resultant fetal position assumption. That's not traditionally how we view charisma, but in that situation, it's the use of emotional intelligence that matters - even if that emotional intelligence is used to intimidate rather than persuade. That's charisma, right there, imo. Which is why warlocks are definitely a charisma class - their power is derived from their bond with their patron, not their intrinsic intellect. Bonds between beings can generally be improved better through Charisma than intelligence.
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I don't think anyone is contending that Charisma isn't appropriate for a Warlock. I think what some of us are saying is that we would have liked for Intelligence to be an official alternate primary stat just like how you can either have strength or dexterity to qualify as a fighter. Warlock is often considered the "lazy" caster class in RP because your patron just "gave you your powers" yet the flavor text is full of allusions to the Warlock being a seeker of arcane secrets and knowledge. Doesn't strike me as someone who just asked really nicely and persuasively for powers and was granted them. So it would be nice for this to be officially recognized by virtue of allowing an additional intellect based caster.
Never mind the fact that this would help balance out the spell caster classes considering we have 1 Intellect caster, 2 Wisdom casters and 3 Charisma casters.
Ok, so I'm late to the party. Very very late. But I'm playing a Warlock for the past year plus, he's now 6th level. Archfey, pact of the tome.
Here's something I'd like to throw into the topic: Charisma isn't just speaking skill, personality, performance or even presence. It's also understanding the audience and the affectation of emotion. In short, Charisma is the EQ (emotional quotient) to intelligence's IQ.
It's not a lack of pure intellect, so much as how one's mental and social engagement works. So, one could be a nerdy, socially awkward Warlock and still have a high charisma because in small groups or in certain social situations, they're just fine. This could hold true when if they're not natural extroverts like a bard usually is.
For example, a pact of the fiend Tiefling might be really good at scaring the poop out of someone because they understand that intimidation plus flaming eyes and certain invocations or spells result in involuntary excretion and resultant fetal position assumption. That's not traditionally how we view charisma, but in that situation, it's the use of emotional intelligence that matters - even if that emotional intelligence is used to intimidate rather than persuade. That's charisma, right there, imo. Which is why warlocks are definitely a charisma class - their power is derived from their bond with their patron, not their intrinsic intellect. Bonds between beings can generally be improved better through Charisma than intelligence.
Flatly, when you start insisting that Charisma is just another form of Intelligence, then this is the point that you are just bending terms to your own pet definition. Charisma isn't 'emotional intelligence' by any previous definition. It's not even where it stands in the rules - Insight is governed by Wisdom, not Charisma. And in any case, it still doesn't address the type of archetypal Faust-like Warlock character that people have been arguing for.
All of that said, Intelligence should be a huge part of any character who is knowledge driven, and your point there is more apt. I think there should be more flavor to the caster using intelligence, and maybe have that drive more power to certain spells and invocations. That might make your case more strongly
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
All of that said, Intelligence should be a huge part of any character who is knowledge driven, and your point there is more apt. I think there should be more flavor to the caster using intelligence, and maybe have that drive more power to certain spells and invocations. That might make your case more strongly
Interesting link. As it explains EQ, there are 4 core skills with one based on perception and one based on action. The 2 skills based on perception seem to fit nicely within the strengths of a Wisdom based character and the 2 based on action seem to fit more a Charisma based character. Just an observation which seems to lend weight to both TrippyHippyEcho and your interpretations. Fun stuff.
Excellent point, and I'm sorry if I came off as dismissive. That's not my intent. I could also see Wisdom and intelligence buffing invocations, which would lend Credence to your argument. This would make the Warlock a more research-Oriented / dark secrets kind of character.
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Excellent point, and I'm sorry if I came off as dismissive. That's not my intent. I could also see Wisdom and intelligence buffing invocations, which would lend Credence to your argument. This would make the Warlock a more research-Oriented / dark secrets kind of character.
Oh no worries at all. I like when people are impassioned in their ideas as long as we all stay respectful of each other. D&D is supposed to make us happy after all :). Yeah for some reason the idea of a GOO Warlock in the old lovecraft style of a researcher/academic discovering arcane and forbidden secrets is really appealing to me which is why I hope to play an intelligence based warlock at some point. My current DM would probably go along with it but I am already playing a level 11 Feylock so probably shouldn't switch lol.
All of that said, Intelligence should be a huge part of any character who is knowledge driven, and your point there is more apt. I think there should be more flavor to the caster using intelligence, and maybe have that drive more power to certain spells and invocations. That might make your case more strongly
I don't need educating on something I have a degree in! And as far as the game is concerned, Charisma and EQ are not the same thing. You are bending the meaning of words to suit your argument, not the other way round. Emotional Intelligence is a broader concept that would have aspects of Charisma, Wisdom and indeed Intelligence all included. Heck, you could also include Inspiration dice...
As far as a smart, research based warlock, its entirely possible with RAW charisma based warlock. That'a what skills are for. Get the Sage background and get proficiency in Arcana, Religion, History, Investigation, Nature, which are all warlock skills too by the way. OP doesn't really get Charisma can mean whatever you want it to mean. A high CHA character doesn't have to be a charismatic word smith that OP is against at all; it can just be how you control your magic. A high WIS character doesn't have to be all that "wise" in the traditional sense, so you can have a clueless cleric. It's all how you roleplay it. RP a socially clumsy warlock who always manages to say the wrong thing that also has 22 in CHA. Having CHA as your spellcasting mod doesn't mean your character can't be as intelligent as you want them to be?
It's not education, it's discussing an interpretation. As for your degree, that's great, I'm not challenging your skills or education. But I've spent 15 years working in government, and I can tell you whether you're a political appointee, elected, or a civil servant by exam, your ability to identify your audience and effectively communicate with it, is a prime determinant of possible successful outcomes, along with finding a good mentor. That is a key component of charisma (as expressed by communication) and I've watched plenty of people fail on charisma when they had plenty of intellect. And that's what I'm getting at: in game, charisma is audience dependent, or at least audience-influenced, but intelligence is not. Charisma based skills influence an audience. That's why charisma is a great basis for a warlock, whose advancement is determined by relationship with his/her/their patron. I think the better move for a caster to switch to intellect might be sorceror, who derives their power from bloodline and honing their natural abilities.
It's not education, it's discussing an interpretation. As for your degree, that's great, I'm not challenging your skills or education. But I've spent 15 years working in government, and I can tell you whether you're a political appointee, elected, or a civil servant by exam, your ability to identify your audience and effectively communicate with it, is a prime determinant of possible successful outcomes, along with finding a good mentor. That is a key component of charisma (as expressed by communication) and I've watched plenty of people fail on charisma when they had plenty of intellect. And that's what I'm getting at: in game, charisma is audience dependent, or at least audience-influenced, but intelligence is not. Charisma based skills influence an audience. That's why charisma is a great basis for a warlock, whose advancement is determined by relationship with his/her/their patron. I think the better move for a caster to switch to intellect might be sorceror, who derives their power from bloodline and honing their natural abilities.
You are assuming that the stats in a game correspond with real life psychological research. EQ is meant to be an all encompassing trait - literally a form of intelligence. Charisma, in D&D, is not.
my 2 pence worth (and I admit to not reading through the entire posting on this one) is Warlocks are charisma based as their whole schtick is making deals, haggling for power and making pacts and bargains for their power instead of using studious research (INT) like a wizard or praying to gods (WIS) like a cleric or to nature like a druid so their personality and ability to manipulate are more important. For Example:
A fiend says give me your soul and I'll grant you all the power you seek, the warlocks smiles and says "how about I keep my soul, you give the power but I give you the souls of 3 other people instead?"
An Archfey asks what the warlock has to offer her in exchange for power and the warlock sings her a song or writes her an epic poem where the archfey is portrayed as the epitome of love and beauty and the warlock swears in exchange for power he'll spread word of her throughout the realms.
A GOO sends visions of their imminent return and the warlock sets out to forge a cult to worship them when they do, creating a cult of personality around themselves.
You could argue that people who are intelligent or wise would know that any entity that would bestow a warlock with power is likely getting far more out of the deal than the warlock and would avoid such pacts. I tend to view warlocks as customers going into the Pawn Stars shop and trying to haggle more money out of Rick Harrison, you can give it a go but you are not going to get as much as you want.
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The kinda intrinsic knowing of yourself tends to fall under the category of Wisdom more than it does Intelligence and WAAAAAAAAAY more than it does Charisma. Unless Sorcery was like, directly related to an outwards facing confidence which I'm p sure has no flavourful or mechanical backing. And if Paladins are casting on Charisma, I see no reason that Clerics shouldn't be, you're literally directly asking for help from someone. They've just been grandfathered into Wisdom from years ago but I don't think it holds up anymore.
I like that argument. Wisdom was created for clerics, IMO, as a means of separating their kind of mental prowess from that of the magic user. If a mage asks can we do a thing, then a cleric, ideally, asks within the framework of their morality, *should* we do a thing? Wisdom is knowing the difference. But maybe that's not as relevant anymore?
This whole argument has me needs a thinking: two tier approach for classes; a primary casting stat, and a secondary stat that serves as the buff based on the spell rather than the caster. Maybe the caster and the buff are the same, like a bard with a charm spell, and maybe they're different, like a warlock with an identify spell would use charisma as the casting stat, but intelligence would be the spell's buff stat.
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
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Ok, so I'm late to the party. Very very late. But I'm playing a Warlock for the past year plus, he's now 6th level. Archfey, pact of the tome.
Here's something I'd like to throw into the topic: Charisma isn't just speaking skill, personality, performance or even presence. It's also understanding the audience and the affectation of emotion. In short, Charisma is the EQ (emotional quotient) to intelligence's IQ.
It's not a lack of pure intellect, so much as how one's mental and social engagement works. So, one could be a nerdy, socially awkward Warlock and still have a high charisma because in small groups or in certain social situations, they're just fine. This could hold true when if they're not natural extroverts like a bard usually is.
For example, a pact of the fiend Tiefling might be really good at scaring the poop out of someone because they understand that intimidation plus flaming eyes and certain invocations or spells result in involuntary excretion and resultant fetal position assumption. That's not traditionally how we view charisma, but in that situation, it's the use of emotional intelligence that matters - even if that emotional intelligence is used to intimidate rather than persuade. That's charisma, right there, imo. Which is why warlocks are definitely a charisma class - their power is derived from their bond with their patron, not their intrinsic intellect. Bonds between beings can generally be improved better through Charisma than intelligence.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I don't think anyone is contending that Charisma isn't appropriate for a Warlock. I think what some of us are saying is that we would have liked for Intelligence to be an official alternate primary stat just like how you can either have strength or dexterity to qualify as a fighter. Warlock is often considered the "lazy" caster class in RP because your patron just "gave you your powers" yet the flavor text is full of allusions to the Warlock being a seeker of arcane secrets and knowledge. Doesn't strike me as someone who just asked really nicely and persuasively for powers and was granted them. So it would be nice for this to be officially recognized by virtue of allowing an additional intellect based caster.
Never mind the fact that this would help balance out the spell caster classes considering we have 1 Intellect caster, 2 Wisdom casters and 3 Charisma casters.
Flatly, when you start insisting that Charisma is just another form of Intelligence, then this is the point that you are just bending terms to your own pet definition. Charisma isn't 'emotional intelligence' by any previous definition. It's not even where it stands in the rules - Insight is governed by Wisdom, not Charisma. And in any case, it still doesn't address the type of archetypal Faust-like Warlock character that people have been arguing for.
If you think a great deal of charisma isn't knowing your audience and how they react to your words, you're fooling yourself. There's numerous studies and practical management books on the subject. Relationship building is critical to a functioning bond. That is emotional intelligence and if you want some critical distinctions in terms of EQ vs. IQ, take a look: https://www.emotionalintelligence.net/?gclid=CjwKCAjwkqPrBRA3EiwAKdtwk5uu0HJjIg0RneXZHFIfDDVZ9T1I2h5l0h8eMY069yMx0B5cNfO4ZRoCRSkQAvD_BwE
All of that said, Intelligence should be a huge part of any character who is knowledge driven, and your point there is more apt. I think there should be more flavor to the caster using intelligence, and maybe have that drive more power to certain spells and invocations. That might make your case more strongly
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Interesting link. As it explains EQ, there are 4 core skills with one based on perception and one based on action. The 2 skills based on perception seem to fit nicely within the strengths of a Wisdom based character and the 2 based on action seem to fit more a Charisma based character. Just an observation which seems to lend weight to both TrippyHippyEcho and your interpretations. Fun stuff.
Excellent point, and I'm sorry if I came off as dismissive. That's not my intent. I could also see Wisdom and intelligence buffing invocations, which would lend Credence to your argument. This would make the Warlock a more research-Oriented / dark secrets kind of character.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Oh no worries at all. I like when people are impassioned in their ideas as long as we all stay respectful of each other. D&D is supposed to make us happy after all :). Yeah for some reason the idea of a GOO Warlock in the old lovecraft style of a researcher/academic discovering arcane and forbidden secrets is really appealing to me which is why I hope to play an intelligence based warlock at some point. My current DM would probably go along with it but I am already playing a level 11 Feylock so probably shouldn't switch lol.
I don't need educating on something I have a degree in! And as far as the game is concerned, Charisma and EQ are not the same thing. You are bending the meaning of words to suit your argument, not the other way round. Emotional Intelligence is a broader concept that would have aspects of Charisma, Wisdom and indeed Intelligence all included. Heck, you could also include Inspiration dice...
Is that the topic really though?
"Normality is but an Illusion, Whats normal to the Spider, is only madness for the Fly"
Kain de Frostberg- Dark Knight - (Vengeance Pal3/ Hexblade 9), Port Mourn
Kain de Draakberg-Dark Knight lvl8-Avergreen(DitA)
Charisma makes a whole lot more sense on a Warlock than it does on Sorcerers or Wisdom on Clerics. You asked someone else for help after all.
As far as a smart, research based warlock, its entirely possible with RAW charisma based warlock. That'a what skills are for. Get the Sage background and get proficiency in Arcana, Religion, History, Investigation, Nature, which are all warlock skills too by the way. OP doesn't really get Charisma can mean whatever you want it to mean. A high CHA character doesn't have to be a charismatic word smith that OP is against at all; it can just be how you control your magic. A high WIS character doesn't have to be all that "wise" in the traditional sense, so you can have a clueless cleric. It's all how you roleplay it. RP a socially clumsy warlock who always manages to say the wrong thing that also has 22 in CHA. Having CHA as your spellcasting mod doesn't mean your character can't be as intelligent as you want them to be?
It's not education, it's discussing an interpretation. As for your degree, that's great, I'm not challenging your skills or education. But I've spent 15 years working in government, and I can tell you whether you're a political appointee, elected, or a civil servant by exam, your ability to identify your audience and effectively communicate with it, is a prime determinant of possible successful outcomes, along with finding a good mentor. That is a key component of charisma (as expressed by communication) and I've watched plenty of people fail on charisma when they had plenty of intellect. And that's what I'm getting at: in game, charisma is audience dependent, or at least audience-influenced, but intelligence is not. Charisma based skills influence an audience. That's why charisma is a great basis for a warlock, whose advancement is determined by relationship with his/her/their patron. I think the better move for a caster to switch to intellect might be sorceror, who derives their power from bloodline and honing their natural abilities.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
Wisdom is the better fit for Sorcerers. Charisma is the better fit for Clerics.
Why wisdom?
Love it!
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
You are assuming that the stats in a game correspond with real life psychological research. EQ is meant to be an all encompassing trait - literally a form of intelligence. Charisma, in D&D, is not.
my 2 pence worth (and I admit to not reading through the entire posting on this one) is Warlocks are charisma based as their whole schtick is making deals, haggling for power and making pacts and bargains for their power instead of using studious research (INT) like a wizard or praying to gods (WIS) like a cleric or to nature like a druid so their personality and ability to manipulate are more important. For Example:
A fiend says give me your soul and I'll grant you all the power you seek, the warlocks smiles and says "how about I keep my soul, you give the power but I give you the souls of 3 other people instead?"
An Archfey asks what the warlock has to offer her in exchange for power and the warlock sings her a song or writes her an epic poem where the archfey is portrayed as the epitome of love and beauty and the warlock swears in exchange for power he'll spread word of her throughout the realms.
A GOO sends visions of their imminent return and the warlock sets out to forge a cult to worship them when they do, creating a cult of personality around themselves.
You could argue that people who are intelligent or wise would know that any entity that would bestow a warlock with power is likely getting far more out of the deal than the warlock and would avoid such pacts. I tend to view warlocks as customers going into the Pawn Stars shop and trying to haggle more money out of Rick Harrison, you can give it a go but you are not going to get as much as you want.
We'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree on that one.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
The kinda intrinsic knowing of yourself tends to fall under the category of Wisdom more than it does Intelligence and WAAAAAAAAAY more than it does Charisma. Unless Sorcery was like, directly related to an outwards facing confidence which I'm p sure has no flavourful or mechanical backing. And if Paladins are casting on Charisma, I see no reason that Clerics shouldn't be, you're literally directly asking for help from someone. They've just been grandfathered into Wisdom from years ago but I don't think it holds up anymore.
I like that argument. Wisdom was created for clerics, IMO, as a means of separating their kind of mental prowess from that of the magic user. If a mage asks can we do a thing, then a cleric, ideally, asks within the framework of their morality, *should* we do a thing? Wisdom is knowing the difference. But maybe that's not as relevant anymore?
This whole argument has me needs a thinking: two tier approach for classes; a primary casting stat, and a secondary stat that serves as the buff based on the spell rather than the caster. Maybe the caster and the buff are the same, like a bard with a charm spell, and maybe they're different, like a warlock with an identify spell would use charisma as the casting stat, but intelligence would be the spell's buff stat.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom