Seems pretty reasonable unless the fight is very low to mid level. If there is any sort of actual party threat to the fight, a short rest to recover some HP and abilities is the logical thing to do. Your point is also valid though that for low level fights, Warlocks should be leaning mostly on cantrips. Eldritch Blast is your friend :)
For high level fights too, EB is the best scaling attack in the game! (Citation needed)
You're not going to get a short rest EVERY fight, no. But a lot of parties I've seen don't short rest at all, they just go about their adventuring day until they feel a little battered, then pull back to somewhere with a door for a long rest. There's plenty of evidence in the system that the game designers intended short rests to happen after every combat unless there was a pressing reason why they wouldn't, and classes designed to key off of short rests rather than long - such as warlocks - suffer when they aren't allowed to take advantage of that quicker recharge built into their class.
Saying "warlocks shouldn't rely on short rests, manage your resources better" is a bit like saying that fighters, monks, or other martial characters with nothing but short-rest recharges on their abilities should 'manage their resources better'. Taking short rests to regain their short-rest abilities IS managing their resources, and constantly denying them the opportunity to do that is denying them one of the key strengths of their class.
If the sorcerer is sneering at you because he's throwing Fireballs every fight and ignoring short rests because he's at the back and never takes a punch while leaning on the fact that he has five times more spell slots than you do, try a test where the party has to deal with five or six combat encounters in a day, but with two or three interspersed short rests at the minimum. I.e. what the game designers originally envisioned, according to most source documents. See how well that sorcerer's doing at the end of the day.
I actually do think those classes should manage their resources better. You can short rest maybe like twice a day before you're honestly spending more time resting than doing anything else.
Anyways, since you can literally ask for a short rest as either the player or even the DM, I'm not sure how you are managing to go entire days without them. Even in a pick up group, I've never had someone deny me any reasonable request
As a response to the idea that "ignoring short rests is removing the strength of the class" as far as that goes, that's okay? Sometimes, fights should be hard? If you were a short rest every fight kinda group, yeah, Warlock is gonna kick ass, even with only 2 slots, and it's gonna feel great, but being hard pressed, skin of your teeth, every round counts kinda fights, those are worth so much too. Being strong all the time is pointless and a little boring
I have a large variety of cantrips. I have toll of the dead and frost bite to me things up.
It's not that I don't have options. It's that I am relatively low damaging compared to the true spell casters. Buff skills are mostly limited to self and we are low level. I find myself behind the true spell casters and not able to melee like warrior but My character is a great survivor. I am a drow and have taken drow high magic which has helped a lot!
I have a large variety of cantrips. I have toll of the dead and frost bite to me things up.
It's not that I don't have options. It's that I am relatively low damaging compared to the true spell casters. Buff skills are mostly limited to self and we are low level. I find myself behind the true spell casters and not able to melee like warrior but My character is a great survivor. I am a drow and have taken drow high magic which has helped a lot!
For my Hexblade lvl 9 me experience is that I cant compare with a Sorc or a Wiz if they start firing all their big spells during the first few rounds. But if its a combat that lasts a good while, I can be of big help both for damage and strategy. EB is a good and consistent source of damage in the long run. Cant compare to a few fireballs and etc, but a wizard usually runs out of that quite fast. You just have to find your place in the group and build your character thereafter.
I have a large variety of cantrips. I have toll of the dead and frost bite to me things up.
It's not that I don't have options. It's that I am relatively low damaging compared to the true spell casters. Buff skills are mostly limited to self and we are low level. I find myself behind the true spell casters and not able to melee like warrior but My character is a great survivor. I am a drow and have taken drow high magic which has helped a lot!
That's the way it is with warlocks, though. They're never the best caster in terms of damage output. What they do well is board control, charm/fear, and what I call always-available magical damage. Sometimes, it's the ability to constantly deal damage over the long term until your sword can get in there is the best method. I wish you success!
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
…I cant compare with a Sorc or a Wiz if they start firing all their big spells during the first few rounds.
The way I think of it:
Warlocks are archers. A ranged combatant who can reliably do damage every round for a long time. They excel at single-target damage, especially if that single target has legendary saving throws.
Wizards and sorcerers are artillery pieces. They can do a lot of damage to a lot of people all at once, but they need time to recharge and reload.
…I cant compare with a Sorc or a Wiz if they start firing all their big spells during the first few rounds.
The way I think of it:
Warlocks are archers. A ranged combatant who can reliably do damage every round for a long time. They excel at single-target damage, especially if that single target has legendary saving throws.
Wizards and sorcerers are artillery pieces. They can do a lot of damage to a lot of people all at once, but they need time to recharge and reload.
Yes, excellent analogy. A magical sniper, if you will. At higher levels, warlocks have singular target "save-or-suck" capabilities, and taking down a leader can turn a whole board, similar to taking out a high ranking officer in a military engagement can turn a battle into a rout.
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May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I included this to start a discussion as to how to use the warlock better in combat and roleplaying. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'll take this conversation in a new direction. Or I can start a new thread (reply below and I'll make this a new thread and share the link). Why my warlock is the face of the party (sometimes) and is a charisma caster.
We are running a hybrid Saltmarsh / Faerun campaign (Saltmarsh has been dropped onto the sword coast). Without dropping too many spoilers, we had to get to a pirate ship. My character (6th level Feylock) was able to sing a sea chanty - which I had to make up on the spot and actually sing in real life - and nailed the charisma check with fey presence. This got the party aboard and added a degree of humor and off key song. The bard, of course, had missed the session. Granted, maybe the Rogue could've gotten herself aboard, but the rest of the party, maybe not. Using my heretofore unknown singing talents plus simple Feylock abilities, we're all onboard. In the ultimate fight against netherworld evilness, one of the two creatures remained hidden in darkness out of sight, then would swoop to attack. While down, I hit it with a Faerie Fire. Boom. No longer out of sight, attacks are at Advantage for others. We had two, almost three characters KO'd (Half orc paladin used an ability to stay standing), but we survived it. It was an interesting and challenging battle, one in which my Warlock played a key role, despite not scoring anywhere near the most damage. I got maybe 20 points on 3 Eldritch blasts - I don't have agonizing blast. The paladin and barbarians did the real work, but it doesn't happen without the Warlock.
Were there other ways to win the day? Sure. I'm the only true caster in the party, though we've got a pretty good bard (who did make the second session of this adventure). I'm sure we could've had more magical damage from a sorceror or wizard, but the warlock was integral to the whole experience. There's more powerful characters, but maybe not more resourceful in times where magic and craftiness must blend in an instant.
In the description it says that Warlocks get their power by studying forbidden lore. I think a Fey Warlock would have high Charisma, but a fiend or great one Warlock seems like an unlikeable person that most people would strongly dislike, I think in most cases Intelligence or constitution make more sense. Intelligence from studying forbidden lore, knowing arcana, history, religion; constitution because of the toll a pact with such an entity would enact, it would require a high constitution to keep alive after such an Eldritch deal.
I made a half crazy old one Warlock, that smells and looks like a frail sickly old man. High charisma just made no sense and made it less immersive. High intelligence made a lot of sense.
The forbidden lore that warlocks study are generally just how they gain the means of creating a pact with their patron, since that bond is how they continue to gain power instead of it coming from learning more things. Otherwise they'd be leaning heavily into Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight territory, if not straight up wizardry.
I'm not too sure about Constitution either, since it wouldn't benefit the patron to have their warlock not able to survive the pact to fulfill their purpose. I could see the potential for interesting mechanics involving a more dynamic trade-off for even more power in return for spending hit dice or something similar. Maybe a Pact of the Soul is due...
Anyway, I do think intelligence would work for an Archmage patron; sadly I haven't seen any good homebrews for that yet.
Your character sounds like they had a lot of presence, who most people actively avoid instead of simply ignore, which is an aspect of Charisma.
I think it would be cool to use constitution as the spell casting ability, but they would get no constitution bonus and the pact drains the hit-points to enhance their power. I I can't believe the mechanic of trading life for power, hasn't been used like this in a class yet. At least none I know of.
The current Warlock build encourages players to invest in Charisma, Dexterity and then Constitution. My idea of a Warlock is someone that tries to gain power at all costs. They are not charismatic, frail and not dexterous. I see them trading their health for power, and using intelligence and wisdom to find ways to greater power.
Someone that would make a pact with a Fiend or Old one would have to be crazy, desperate or power hungry.
Charisma does make sense for pacts with Fey and Celestial patrons. It just feels like Warlocks were not thought through as well as the original classes, like Cleric, Wizards and Rouges.
Additionally I don't like that most spell casting ability is based off charisma. It fits perfectly for Bards, but someones likableness and ability to lead doesn't make magic in my opinion. Magic fits much better under Intelligence and Wisdom.
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Andrew O.
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For high level fights too, EB is the best scaling attack in the game! (Citation needed)
I actually do think those classes should manage their resources better. You can short rest maybe like twice a day before you're honestly spending more time resting than doing anything else.
Anyways, since you can literally ask for a short rest as either the player or even the DM, I'm not sure how you are managing to go entire days without them. Even in a pick up group, I've never had someone deny me any reasonable request
As a response to the idea that "ignoring short rests is removing the strength of the class" as far as that goes, that's okay? Sometimes, fights should be hard? If you were a short rest every fight kinda group, yeah, Warlock is gonna kick ass, even with only 2 slots, and it's gonna feel great, but being hard pressed, skin of your teeth, every round counts kinda fights, those are worth so much too. Being strong all the time is pointless and a little boring
I have a large variety of cantrips. I have toll of the dead and frost bite to me things up.
It's not that I don't have options. It's that I am relatively low damaging compared to the true spell casters. Buff skills are mostly limited to self and we are low level. I find myself behind the true spell casters and not able to melee like warrior but My character is a great survivor. I am a drow and have taken drow high magic which has helped a lot!
For my Hexblade lvl 9 me experience is that I cant compare with a Sorc or a Wiz if they start firing all their big spells during the first few rounds. But if its a combat that lasts a good while, I can be of big help both for damage and strategy. EB is a good and consistent source of damage in the long run. Cant compare to a few fireballs and etc, but a wizard usually runs out of that quite fast. You just have to find your place in the group and build your character thereafter.
That's the way it is with warlocks, though. They're never the best caster in terms of damage output. What they do well is board control, charm/fear, and what I call always-available magical damage. Sometimes, it's the ability to constantly deal damage over the long term until your sword can get in there is the best method. I wish you success!
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
The way I think of it:
Warlocks are archers. A ranged combatant who can reliably do damage every round for a long time. They excel at single-target damage, especially if that single target has legendary saving throws.
Wizards and sorcerers are artillery pieces. They can do a lot of damage to a lot of people all at once, but they need time to recharge and reload.
Excellent Analogy. Precision Strike vs Firebomb.
Yes, excellent analogy. A magical sniper, if you will. At higher levels, warlocks have singular target "save-or-suck" capabilities, and taking down a leader can turn a whole board, similar to taking out a high ranking officer in a military engagement can turn a battle into a rout.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
I included this to start a discussion as to how to use the warlock better in combat and roleplaying. Sorry if I wasn't clear. I'll take this conversation in a new direction. Or I can start a new thread (reply below and I'll make this a new thread and share the link). Why my warlock is the face of the party (sometimes) and is a charisma caster.
We are running a hybrid Saltmarsh / Faerun campaign (Saltmarsh has been dropped onto the sword coast). Without dropping too many spoilers, we had to get to a pirate ship. My character (6th level Feylock) was able to sing a sea chanty - which I had to make up on the spot and actually sing in real life - and nailed the charisma check with fey presence. This got the party aboard and added a degree of humor and off key song. The bard, of course, had missed the session. Granted, maybe the Rogue could've gotten herself aboard, but the rest of the party, maybe not. Using my heretofore unknown singing talents plus simple Feylock abilities, we're all onboard. In the ultimate fight against netherworld evilness, one of the two creatures remained hidden in darkness out of sight, then would swoop to attack. While down, I hit it with a Faerie Fire. Boom. No longer out of sight, attacks are at Advantage for others. We had two, almost three characters KO'd (Half orc paladin used an ability to stay standing), but we survived it. It was an interesting and challenging battle, one in which my Warlock played a key role, despite not scoring anywhere near the most damage. I got maybe 20 points on 3 Eldritch blasts - I don't have agonizing blast. The paladin and barbarians did the real work, but it doesn't happen without the Warlock.
Were there other ways to win the day? Sure. I'm the only true caster in the party, though we've got a pretty good bard (who did make the second session of this adventure). I'm sure we could've had more magical damage from a sorceror or wizard, but the warlock was integral to the whole experience. There's more powerful characters, but maybe not more resourceful in times where magic and craftiness must blend in an instant.
May the gentle moonlinght guide you to greater wisdom
To the OP:
THANK YOU! This might be the #1 change I would make to D&D.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
In the description it says that Warlocks get their power by studying forbidden lore. I think a Fey Warlock would have high Charisma, but a fiend or great one Warlock seems like an unlikeable person that most people would strongly dislike, I think in most cases Intelligence or constitution make more sense. Intelligence from studying forbidden lore, knowing arcana, history, religion; constitution because of the toll a pact with such an entity would enact, it would require a high constitution to keep alive after such an Eldritch deal.
I made a half crazy old one Warlock, that smells and looks like a frail sickly old man. High charisma just made no sense and made it less immersive. High intelligence made a lot of sense.
Andrew O.
The forbidden lore that warlocks study are generally just how they gain the means of creating a pact with their patron, since that bond is how they continue to gain power instead of it coming from learning more things. Otherwise they'd be leaning heavily into Arcane Trickster or Eldritch Knight territory, if not straight up wizardry.
I'm not too sure about Constitution either, since it wouldn't benefit the patron to have their warlock not able to survive the pact to fulfill their purpose. I could see the potential for interesting mechanics involving a more dynamic trade-off for even more power in return for spending hit dice or something similar. Maybe a Pact of the Soul is due...
Anyway, I do think intelligence would work for an Archmage patron; sadly I haven't seen any good homebrews for that yet.
Your character sounds like they had a lot of presence, who most people actively avoid instead of simply ignore, which is an aspect of Charisma.
I think it would be cool to use constitution as the spell casting ability, but they would get no constitution bonus and the pact drains the hit-points to enhance their power. I I can't believe the mechanic of trading life for power, hasn't been used like this in a class yet. At least none I know of.
The current Warlock build encourages players to invest in Charisma, Dexterity and then Constitution. My idea of a Warlock is someone that tries to gain power at all costs. They are not charismatic, frail and not dexterous. I see them trading their health for power, and using intelligence and wisdom to find ways to greater power.
Someone that would make a pact with a Fiend or Old one would have to be crazy, desperate or power hungry.
Charisma does make sense for pacts with Fey and Celestial patrons. It just feels like Warlocks were not thought through as well as the original classes, like Cleric, Wizards and Rouges.
Additionally I don't like that most spell casting ability is based off charisma. It fits perfectly for Bards, but someones likableness and ability to lead doesn't make magic in my opinion. Magic fits much better under Intelligence and Wisdom.
Andrew O.