So I saw in another thread that familiars can help you in combat, specifically in them using the Help option simply gives you an advantage on your attack roll next turn.
Can someone explain this a bit better to me because that seems really broken that I can simply say "My Owl is going to help me next turn" when its her turn and I get to roll with advantage from the second round onwards (assuming that my owl rolls a lower initiative).
A familiar counts as a creature, albeit usually a tiny one, and a creature can take actions during combat. Now while it says under the Find Familiar spell that a familiar can't attack it can take the other actions available (Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Hide, etc.), one of those actions is the Help action.
While this may seem broken to you, it is the simple and basic rules that millions are using everyday. And the Owl in your example doesn't help forever, the rules still apply, the Help action only lasts for as long as it states. Plus, unless it held it's action until the following round, it would need to roll higher in the initiative order, not lower.
Not trying to sound unfriendly or aggressive, although it might seem that way (can't read tone or infliction in a text).
It's not as broken as it sounds, it just gives you (or anybody you choose) one attack roll with Advantage per round. At lower levels, you tend to think of it as "one person has Advantage all the time", since they're making a single attack per round... but at higher levels, or in some cases even at lower ones, between Extra Attacks, Bonus Action attacks (from dual wielding, or class abilities, or Feats, or spells...), many characters will be making multiple attacks per turn, and Help only affects the first attack by one specific ally against one specific target. Because of that last part, often you'll find the Help action is wasted: the target dies before the Helped ally gets to attack it, or the target moves out of range (and for any of many reasons, you'd rather not pursue), or a higher priority target comes into play (powerful spellcaster with few hps, or fleeing target who can alert others, etc.), or a course of action other than attacking becomes a better choice (say an ally gets knocked unconscious, and you decide it's better to go stabilize him rather than risk him bleeding to death). So yes, it sounds broken (omg, free constant Advantage, woohoo!), but in practice, it's not.
Regarding how it works, it's just what you described: on its turn, your familiar moves to the target, uses its Action to do Help, and maybe moves away. Moving away can be tricky, since it would generate an Opportunity Attack, which is why many people opt for the Owl familiar: it's Flyby ability prevents Opportunity Attacks from moving out of the threatened area. But not moving away means the familiar is vulnerable to attacks.
Bear in mind, though, that familiars have very few hit points (the owl has 1), so are vulnerable to area effect damage, even when not specifically targeted. Also, any enemy with Polearm Mastery (or any other way to generate Opportunity Attacks when enemies enter their threatened area) would dispatch the familiar before the Help action is performed, as would any enemy with a damage aura.
Finally, there might be better things to have you familiar do at times: deliver touch spells (delivering attack spells is tricky, but beneficial spells are good candidates for familiar delivery), scouting, etc.
Can someone explain this a bit better to me because that seems really broken that I can simply say "My Owl is going to help me next turn" when its her turn and I get to roll with advantage from the second round onwards (assuming that my owl rolls a lower initiative).
"Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally's attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage."
The proximity required puts your very squishy familiar close to the bad guy, so depending on how combat plays out the familiar might only live one round. Phrasing is a little weird. It is not from the second round onward, it is the first attack you make after your familiar's turn. If you had two attacks, then only one has advantage, also if you had an opportunity attack then you wouldn't have advantage on your turn. It doesn't really matter if the initiative is higher or lower than yours, just that after the familiar's turn, and before it's next turn, you have advantage on one attack.
Plus, unless it held it's action until the following round, it would need to roll higher in the initiative order, not lower.
I believe wildste was referring to "from the second round onwards" with his comment about rolling lower initiative, which is correct. If the familiar rolls lower, then its Help action would give you (or whomever) Advantage on the next round; if higher, then on this round. If the familiar uses Help action every turn, then someone is getting Advantage every turn, except maybe the first turn (on the first round), if whoever the familiar is Helping rolled higher initiative than the familiar.
Can someone explain this a bit better to me because that seems really broken that I can simply say "My Owl is going to help me next turn" when its her turn and I get to roll with advantage from the second round onwards (assuming that my owl rolls a lower initiative).
"Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally's attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage."
The proximity required puts your very squishy familiar close to the bad guy, so depending on how combat plays out the familiar might only live one round. Phrasing is a little weird. It is not from the second round onward, it is the first attack you make after your familiar's turn. If you had two attacks, then only one has advantage, also if you had an opportunity attack then you wouldn't have advantage on your turn. It doesn't really matter if the initiative is higher or lower than yours, just that after the familiar's turn, and before it's next turn, you have advantage on one attack.
The actor taking the Help action does not need to stay next to the target; it can move away after performing the Help action. And the "from the second round onwards" I believe assumes the familiar will be performing the Help action every turn.
Can someone explain this a bit better to me because that seems really broken that I can simply say "My Owl is going to help me next turn" when its her turn and I get to roll with advantage from the second round onwards (assuming that my owl rolls a lower initiative).
"Alternatively, you can aid a friendly creature in attacking a creature within 5 feet of you. You feint, distract the target, or in some other way team up to make your ally's attack more effective. If your ally attacks the target before your next turn, the first attack roll is made with advantage."
The proximity required puts your very squishy familiar close to the bad guy, so depending on how combat plays out the familiar might only live one round. Phrasing is a little weird. It is not from the second round onward, it is the first attack you make after your familiar's turn. If you had two attacks, then only one has advantage, also if you had an opportunity attack then you wouldn't have advantage on your turn. It doesn't really matter if the initiative is higher or lower than yours, just that after the familiar's turn, and before it's next turn, you have advantage on one attack.
The actor taking the Help action does not need to stay next to the target; it can move away after performing the Help action. And the "from the second round onwards" I believe assumes the familiar will be performing the Help action every turn.
I never said he needed to stay within 5 feet. Just that he would have to bring the familiar close to the bad guy. As you pointed out in your post an opportunity attack or AOE would quickly dispatch the familiar.
As for the "second round onward" it is fine to assume that it means he helps every turn, but it implies that it is just happening every round after the second. That's why I said the phrasing is weird.
If you go to this thread we've talked about it extensively as well as I posted a breakdown on every Familiar. TL;HR: Owl is clearly the best familiar for mechanical reasons in combat. Other familiars have better scouting or RP. Darkvision 120' Training in Perception: Passive Perception: 13, but is probably 18 because it has Keen Hearing and Sight gives it Adv (+5) to all vision and hearing tests (see 99.999% of all tests) Training in Stealth Fly 60' with Flyby attack means baddies don't get AoOs against the owl.
This means the Owl can give the Help Action every turn in combat either to the Wizard to someone else (Hint: The Rogue probably deserves it more!). Other casters will often ask for "the assist" if they are about to cast a big attack spell. If the owl and you have radically different Inits, I've had the baddie die and the action wasted, but it's a "Help Action" so I'm not upset. I learn to plan better or there was nothing I could have done. Also the Help Action isn't wasted if the Owl is at the bottom of the Initiative, it's active until the Owl's next Initiative.
Does that mean an enemy with a ranged attack can make an attempt at an owl with it's pathetic AC:11? YES! Are they normally going to bother? No. I've only ever had my familiar die from a fireball inside a building. With a flight of 60' my owl is usually 30' feet up in the air and so out of melee, most AoEs, or uses it's movement to block LOS or get a +2 AC from cover from an ally.
Basic rule of thumb. The GM will either roll the Owl's init separately or have it act on your init (I've seen both). If it acts on your Init (like a mount) have it act 1st: fly out give Help, fly away) then you get your attack with Adv. If the owl rolls it's own Init. Hope it goes just before you, if not "oh well". Have it "help" the best person, that might be you it might be someone else (hint: The Rogue).
Please check out this thread about Familiars Helping every turn to give the Wizard Adv on passive Perception checks during travel. There is some good discussion on it.
Technically speaking, no. Familiars don't get killed. When they are reduced to 0 hps, they "disappear, leaving behind no physical form", and reappear when the spell is cast again.
But yeah, that's always a risk, which is why the owl makes for the best combat familiar: not provoking OAs when leaving threatened areas makes it less likely to be killed. It would have to be specifically targetted, and in that case, that's one fewer attack on the players' characters. ;)
My Tempest Domain Cleric took Magic Initiate (wizard) at first level for my human feat. Taking Booming Blade, Shocking Grasp, and Find Familiar (owl) this allows me to cast offensive touch spells at a range of 100 feet like the formationed Shocking Grasp or Inflict Wounds. It also allows me to cast helpful touch spells at a range of 100 feet like Spare the Dieing, Guidance or Cure Wounds, ect. Also, I can direct it to use the help command for myself or allies. During the first round of combat if the familiar rolls low on Initiative, I just have the hold their action until the top of the initiative count or right before my turn to make it easier/quicker in combat.
Is there any support for the claim that the actor taking the help action doesn't need to stay next to the targeted creature? In my reading of the rule as written, the advantage is granted to someone attacking a creature within 5 feet of the one using the Help action. If the Helper has moved away, they are no longer within 5 feet and no longer distracting.
I am dealing with this in my campaign and considering making the player take the Ready action to go off when the distraction happens, where they could benefit from the advantage but at the cost of their second attack. Or the owl can stay within 5 feet putting it at risk.
If you had to stay within 5 feet, the help action would specify that. It mentions that you distract a target who is within 5 feet of you but doesn't say you have to stay there. Combat interactions all happen together at the same time within a 6 second period, you help and move away and at the same time someone attacks the target, don't think of it as an individual interaction whilst everyone else is standing still. Likewise, you don't have to stay next to the target you just attacked.
Is there any support for the claim that the actor taking the help action doesn't need to stay next to the targeted creature? In my reading of the rule as written, the advantage is granted to someone attacking a creature within 5 feet of the one using the Help action. If the Helper has moved away, they are no longer within 5 feet and no longer distracting.
Support would be needed for the opposite claim (that the helper needs to stay within 5' of the target), since there is no restriction specified in the rules. (As an analogy, consider the question: "Is there any support for the claim that the actor taking the help action doesn't need to start their turn next to the targeted creature?" The rules don't mention any need to start next to the targeted creature in order to take the Help action, so any claim that would assert so would need support.)
Is there any support for the claim that the actor taking the help action doesn't need to stay next to the targeted creature? In my reading of the rule as written, the advantage is granted to someone attacking a creature within 5 feet of the one using the Help action. If the Helper has moved away, they are no longer within 5 feet and no longer distracting.
Support would be needed for the opposite claim (that the helper needs to stay within 5' of the target), since there is no restriction specified in the rules. (As an analogy, consider the question: "Is there any support for the claim that the actor taking the help action doesn't need to start their turn next to the targeted creature?" The rules don't mention any need to start next to the targeted creature in order to take the Help action, so any claim that would assert so would need support.)
He actually provided support for it with the basic logic that if you are not within 5 feet your not actually distracting the target or whatever in some way to be helping the attack. This is a logical thought process that you are not actually refuting by going
"No you have to prove that moving away isn't allowed" without actually supporting your side at all. There is an implication of needing to be within 5 feet of the person by the way that the passage is written in the book. There is no direct clarification or implication to the opposite other than "general rules don't say you can't" which isn't always necessarily proof because it doesn't really contradict the way that he is reading the passage and there is a standard of Specific trumps General in the game. In which case the help action would be more specific than the general allowable number and mixing of actions in combat if we were to lean in it's favor purely on that standpoint.
The Truth of the Matter is that it doesn't really help or hinder the game all that much either way... The drawbacks to familiars in combat are actually well documented. Even the owl only escapes one or two of them at most thanks to flyby. And Advantage on one attack is nice and can be helpful in battle but is in no way game breaking or unique. Even when coming from a familiar.
So does the Way the book is written lean towards the person/familiar/thing doing the help action have to stay near the target. Yes, it in fact does. And it's a fair way for DM's to rule on it. It's something to perhaps expect in games where RaW is adhered to as much as possible such as in AL. So let's keep it in mind. But is it game breaking or anything special when you say they can move away? Not at all. It doesn't need Crawford's signature of approval to do it that way. And he's only semi-official anyway so take those things with a grain of salt. However if a definitive answer ever shows up in an Eratta or the official sage advice PDF's which I don't believe it has. Then take note of those rulings and adjust accordingly.
Personally as a GM I let my players know people target them aggressively. Its a irritating gimmick that slows down the game. We have to have another initiative to track, it has to take an action, we have to track its position and movement. And in world it makes sense to kill the easy distraction so you can focus on your foe. The player can do it, but they should get ready to spend 40-50GP a day.
when my familiar dies in your game, MyDudeicus, I cast Flock of Familiars with a 9th level spell slot and get... 10 new familiars
whenever you try to GM the game going forward I interrupt every word out of your mouth with "One of my familiars... (does something, even something pointless)"
plus whenever I do something in your game that requires a dice roll I would take extra time... selecting the dice... shaking the dice in my hand... stopping to comment on something... begin shaking the dice again... stopping again to switch dice saying "I'm going to use my lucky/fav dice for this roll."... then starting all over again... if I ever get around to rolling in your game i will just come up with another reason to roll the dice and do it all over again but waste even more time the 2nd time around.
I mean if you're gonna troll (either the PC with the familiar in your game or those who comment on here)... I'm gonna troll you back.
targeting a familiar over PCs is like worrying about a fly while getting shot or stabbed, who does that?
So I saw in another thread that familiars can help you in combat, specifically in them using the Help option simply gives you an advantage on your attack roll next turn.
Can someone explain this a bit better to me because that seems really broken that I can simply say "My Owl is going to help me next turn" when its her turn and I get to roll with advantage from the second round onwards (assuming that my owl rolls a lower initiative).
A familiar counts as a creature, albeit usually a tiny one, and a creature can take actions during combat. Now while it says under the Find Familiar spell that a familiar can't attack it can take the other actions available (Dash, Disengage, Dodge, Hide, etc.), one of those actions is the Help action.
While this may seem broken to you, it is the simple and basic rules that millions are using everyday. And the Owl in your example doesn't help forever, the rules still apply, the Help action only lasts for as long as it states. Plus, unless it held it's action until the following round, it would need to roll higher in the initiative order, not lower.
Not trying to sound unfriendly or aggressive, although it might seem that way (can't read tone or infliction in a text).
(The above is concerning 5e rules.)
It's not as broken as it sounds, it just gives you (or anybody you choose) one attack roll with Advantage per round. At lower levels, you tend to think of it as "one person has Advantage all the time", since they're making a single attack per round... but at higher levels, or in some cases even at lower ones, between Extra Attacks, Bonus Action attacks (from dual wielding, or class abilities, or Feats, or spells...), many characters will be making multiple attacks per turn, and Help only affects the first attack by one specific ally against one specific target. Because of that last part, often you'll find the Help action is wasted: the target dies before the Helped ally gets to attack it, or the target moves out of range (and for any of many reasons, you'd rather not pursue), or a higher priority target comes into play (powerful spellcaster with few hps, or fleeing target who can alert others, etc.), or a course of action other than attacking becomes a better choice (say an ally gets knocked unconscious, and you decide it's better to go stabilize him rather than risk him bleeding to death). So yes, it sounds broken (omg, free constant Advantage, woohoo!), but in practice, it's not.
Regarding how it works, it's just what you described: on its turn, your familiar moves to the target, uses its Action to do Help, and maybe moves away. Moving away can be tricky, since it would generate an Opportunity Attack, which is why many people opt for the Owl familiar: it's Flyby ability prevents Opportunity Attacks from moving out of the threatened area. But not moving away means the familiar is vulnerable to attacks.
Bear in mind, though, that familiars have very few hit points (the owl has 1), so are vulnerable to area effect damage, even when not specifically targeted. Also, any enemy with Polearm Mastery (or any other way to generate Opportunity Attacks when enemies enter their threatened area) would dispatch the familiar before the Help action is performed, as would any enemy with a damage aura.
Finally, there might be better things to have you familiar do at times: deliver touch spells (delivering attack spells is tricky, but beneficial spells are good candidates for familiar delivery), scouting, etc.
The proximity required puts your very squishy familiar close to the bad guy, so depending on how combat plays out the familiar might only live one round.
Phrasing is a little weird. It is not from the second round onward, it is the first attack you make after your familiar's turn. If you had two attacks, then only one has advantage, also if you had an opportunity attack then you wouldn't have advantage on your turn. It doesn't really matter if the initiative is higher or lower than yours, just that after the familiar's turn, and before it's next turn, you have advantage on one attack.
Thank you all, that was very informative :)
If you go to this thread we've talked about it extensively as well as I posted a breakdown on every Familiar.
TL;HR: Owl is clearly the best familiar for mechanical reasons in combat. Other familiars have better scouting or RP.
Darkvision 120'
Training in Perception: Passive Perception: 13, but is probably 18 because it has Keen Hearing and Sight gives it Adv (+5) to all vision and hearing tests (see 99.999% of all tests)
Training in Stealth
Fly 60' with Flyby attack means baddies don't get AoOs against the owl.
This means the Owl can give the Help Action every turn in combat either to the Wizard to someone else (Hint: The Rogue probably deserves it more!). Other casters will often ask for "the assist" if they are about to cast a big attack spell. If the owl and you have radically different Inits, I've had the baddie die and the action wasted, but it's a "Help Action" so I'm not upset. I learn to plan better or there was nothing I could have done. Also the Help Action isn't wasted if the Owl is at the bottom of the Initiative, it's active until the Owl's next Initiative.
Does that mean an enemy with a ranged attack can make an attempt at an owl with it's pathetic AC:11? YES! Are they normally going to bother? No. I've only ever had my familiar die from a fireball inside a building. With a flight of 60' my owl is usually 30' feet up in the air and so out of melee, most AoEs, or uses it's movement to block LOS or get a +2 AC from cover from an ally.
Basic rule of thumb. The GM will either roll the Owl's init separately or have it act on your init (I've seen both). If it acts on your Init (like a mount) have it act 1st: fly out give Help, fly away) then you get your attack with Adv.
If the owl rolls it's own Init. Hope it goes just before you, if not "oh well". Have it "help" the best person, that might be you it might be someone else (hint: The Rogue).
Please check out this thread about Familiars Helping every turn to give the Wizard Adv on passive Perception checks during travel. There is some good discussion on it.
Your owl can get killed
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
My Tempest Domain Cleric took Magic Initiate (wizard) at first level for my human feat. Taking Booming Blade, Shocking Grasp, and Find Familiar (owl) this allows me to cast offensive touch spells at a range of 100 feet like the formationed Shocking Grasp or Inflict Wounds. It also allows me to cast helpful touch spells at a range of 100 feet like Spare the Dieing, Guidance or Cure Wounds, ect. Also, I can direct it to use the help command for myself or allies. During the first round of combat if the familiar rolls low on Initiative, I just have the hold their action until the top of the initiative count or right before my turn to make it easier/quicker in combat.
Is there any support for the claim that the actor taking the help action doesn't need to stay next to the targeted creature? In my reading of the rule as written, the advantage is granted to someone attacking a creature within 5 feet of the one using the Help action. If the Helper has moved away, they are no longer within 5 feet and no longer distracting.
I am dealing with this in my campaign and considering making the player take the Ready action to go off when the distraction happens, where they could benefit from the advantage but at the cost of their second attack. Or the owl can stay within 5 feet putting it at risk.
If you had to stay within 5 feet, the help action would specify that. It mentions that you distract a target who is within 5 feet of you but doesn't say you have to stay there. Combat interactions all happen together at the same time within a 6 second period, you help and move away and at the same time someone attacks the target, don't think of it as an individual interaction whilst everyone else is standing still. Likewise, you don't have to stay next to the target you just attacked.
https://www.twitter.com/jeremyecrawford/status/860969641673334784?lang=en
Support would be needed for the opposite claim (that the helper needs to stay within 5' of the target), since there is no restriction specified in the rules. (As an analogy, consider the question: "Is there any support for the claim that the actor taking the help action doesn't need to start their turn next to the targeted creature?" The rules don't mention any need to start next to the targeted creature in order to take the Help action, so any claim that would assert so would need support.)
He actually provided support for it with the basic logic that if you are not within 5 feet your not actually distracting the target or whatever in some way to be helping the attack. This is a logical thought process that you are not actually refuting by going
"No you have to prove that moving away isn't allowed" without actually supporting your side at all. There is an implication of needing to be within 5 feet of the person by the way that the passage is written in the book. There is no direct clarification or implication to the opposite other than "general rules don't say you can't" which isn't always necessarily proof because it doesn't really contradict the way that he is reading the passage and there is a standard of Specific trumps General in the game. In which case the help action would be more specific than the general allowable number and mixing of actions in combat if we were to lean in it's favor purely on that standpoint.
The Truth of the Matter is that it doesn't really help or hinder the game all that much either way... The drawbacks to familiars in combat are actually well documented. Even the owl only escapes one or two of them at most thanks to flyby. And Advantage on one attack is nice and can be helpful in battle but is in no way game breaking or unique. Even when coming from a familiar.
So does the Way the book is written lean towards the person/familiar/thing doing the help action have to stay near the target. Yes, it in fact does. And it's a fair way for DM's to rule on it. It's something to perhaps expect in games where RaW is adhered to as much as possible such as in AL. So let's keep it in mind. But is it game breaking or anything special when you say they can move away? Not at all. It doesn't need Crawford's signature of approval to do it that way. And he's only semi-official anyway so take those things with a grain of salt. However if a definitive answer ever shows up in an Eratta or the official sage advice PDF's which I don't believe it has. Then take note of those rulings and adjust accordingly.
A Tip for Wildste:
If you never watched/played the Ni No Kuni game, I suggest you should do it.
That's all, Oliie-boy............ xD
My Ready-to-rock&roll chars:
Dertinus Tristany // Amilcar Barca // Vicenç Sacrarius // Oriol Deulofeu // Grovtuk
Yep. My Psi Warrior has a 2-level dip into Wizard, and using his owl to set up advantage on a GWM attack is one of the major reasons why.
Personally as a GM I let my players know people target them aggressively. Its a irritating gimmick that slows down the game. We have to have another initiative to track, it has to take an action, we have to track its position and movement. And in world it makes sense to kill the easy distraction so you can focus on your foe. The player can do it, but they should get ready to spend 40-50GP a day.
when my familiar dies in your game, MyDudeicus, I cast Flock of Familiars with a 9th level spell slot and get... 10 new familiars
whenever you try to GM the game going forward I interrupt every word out of your mouth with "One of my familiars... (does something, even something pointless)"
plus whenever I do something in your game that requires a dice roll I would take extra time... selecting the dice... shaking the dice in my hand... stopping to comment on something... begin shaking the dice again... stopping again to switch dice saying "I'm going to use my lucky/fav dice for this roll."... then starting all over again... if I ever get around to rolling in your game i will just come up with another reason to roll the dice and do it all over again but waste even more time the 2nd time around.
I mean if you're gonna troll (either the PC with the familiar in your game or those who comment on here)... I'm gonna troll you back.
targeting a familiar over PCs is like worrying about a fly while getting shot or stabbed, who does that?