when my familiar dies in your game, MyDudeicus, I cast Flock of Familiars with a 9th level spell slot and get... 10 new familiars
whenever you try to GM the game going forward I interrupt every word out of your mouth with "One of my familiars... (does something, even something pointless)"
plus whenever I do something in your game that requires a dice roll I would take extra time... selecting the dice... shaking the dice in my hand... stopping to comment on something... begin shaking the dice again... stopping again to switch dice saying "I'm going to use my lucky/fav dice for this roll."... then starting all over again... if I ever get around to rolling in your game i will just come up with another reason to roll the dice and do it all over again but waste even more time the 2nd time around.
I mean if you're gonna troll (either the PC with the familiar in your game or those who comment on here)... I'm gonna troll you back.
targeting a familiar over PCs is like worrying about a fly while getting shot or stabbed, who does that?
Having a familiar is trolling the entire party with the wrong player. why scout ahead rogue I have a familiar, lol I get two turns in combat etc. players like that seem obsessed with making sure they are the star in every scene to the detriment of every other player. And the idea a enemy is going to let this owl flutter in its face so the rogue can get a good shot in round after round is absurd. Killing the familiar aggressively is what makes sense in the setting, kill the easy things that are distractions so you can focus on your real enemy. And letting players know in advance that familiars aren't some great mystery, almost everyone on the planet is aware wizards have familiars so people will target them isn't trolling them. Its letting people know in advance how the setting works. The trick you like to abuse wont fly at every table.
when my familiar dies in your game, MyDudeicus, I cast Flock of Familiars with a 9th level spell slot and get... 10 new familiars
whenever you try to GM the game going forward I interrupt every word out of your mouth with "One of my familiars... (does something, even something pointless)"
plus whenever I do something in your game that requires a dice roll I would take extra time... selecting the dice... shaking the dice in my hand... stopping to comment on something... begin shaking the dice again... stopping again to switch dice saying "I'm going to use my lucky/fav dice for this roll."... then starting all over again... if I ever get around to rolling in your game i will just come up with another reason to roll the dice and do it all over again but waste even more time the 2nd time around.
I mean if you're gonna troll (either the PC with the familiar in your game or those who comment on here)... I'm gonna troll you back.
targeting a familiar over PCs is like worrying about a fly while getting shot or stabbed, who does that?
Having a familiar is trolling the entire party with the wrong player. why scout ahead rogue I have a familiar, lol I get two turns in combat etc. players like that seem obsessed with making sure they are the star in every scene to the detriment of every other player. And the idea a enemy is going to let this owl flutter in its face so the rogue can get a good shot in round after round is absurd. Killing the familiar aggressively is what makes sense in the setting, kill the easy things that are distractions so you can focus on your real enemy. And letting players know in advance that familiars aren't some great mystery, almost everyone on the planet is aware wizards have familiars so people will target them isn't trolling them. Its letting people know in advance how the setting works. The trick you like to abuse wont fly at every table.
The familiar is only an effective scouting tool within 100ft, where the caster can use the bond to look through the familiars eyes and map out in detail what lies ahead. During that time, the caster is blind and deaf and all sorts of shenanigans can occur. Further away than 100ft the familiar is nowhere near as effective as a rogue. The familiar takes the form of an animal and acts like one. If a caster instructs the familiar (say owl for example) to scout 10 miles ahead, the owl may come back and report about rabbits and trees. If the caster specifically instructs the familiar to go look for "insert specific clue" then the familiar most likely wouldn't know what that thing which is being asked of it is. If you are allowing familiars to scout ahead as effectively as a rogue would, then it's your fault and not the player's.
In combat sometimes it would make sense for an intelligent being i.e an enemy wizard to make a quick work of a familiar because they know that the familiar aids the caster. If, however, you have everyone and their dog attacking the familiar from the get-go then you are making a very fun and effective spell completely worthless and you are initiating an antagonistic environment between you and the player. Expect that wizard to cast animate objects (tiny) later and demand to do 10 separate attacks on his turn plus his own action, as per RAW. I would say that normally enemies would focus on the big dangers, which are the PC's, not an annoying animal.
when my familiar dies in your game, MyDudeicus, I cast Flock of Familiars with a 9th level spell slot and get... 10 new familiars
whenever you try to GM the game going forward I interrupt every word out of your mouth with "One of my familiars... (does something, even something pointless)"
plus whenever I do something in your game that requires a dice roll I would take extra time... selecting the dice... shaking the dice in my hand... stopping to comment on something... begin shaking the dice again... stopping again to switch dice saying "I'm going to use my lucky/fav dice for this roll."... then starting all over again... if I ever get around to rolling in your game i will just come up with another reason to roll the dice and do it all over again but waste even more time the 2nd time around.
I mean if you're gonna troll (either the PC with the familiar in your game or those who comment on here)... I'm gonna troll you back.
targeting a familiar over PCs is like worrying about a fly while getting shot or stabbed, who does that?
Having a familiar is trolling the entire party with the wrong player. why scout ahead rogue I have a familiar, lol I get two turns in combat etc. players like that seem obsessed with making sure they are the star in every scene to the detriment of every other player. And the idea a enemy is going to let this owl flutter in its face so the rogue can get a good shot in round after round is absurd. Killing the familiar aggressively is what makes sense in the setting, kill the easy things that are distractions so you can focus on your real enemy. And letting players know in advance that familiars aren't some great mystery, almost everyone on the planet is aware wizards have familiars so people will target them isn't trolling them. Its letting people know in advance how the setting works. The trick you like to abuse wont fly at every table.
The familiar is only an effective scouting tool within 100ft, where the caster can use the bond to look through the familiars eyes and map out in detail what lies ahead. During that time, the caster is blind and deaf and all sorts of shenanigans can occur. Further away than 100ft the familiar is nowhere near as effective as a rogue. The familiar takes the form of an animal and acts like one. If a caster instructs the familiar (say owl for example) to scout 10 miles ahead, the owl may come back and report about rabbits and trees. If the caster specifically instructs the familiar to go look for "insert specific clue" then the familiar most likely wouldn't know what that thing which is being asked of it is. If you are allowing familiars to scout ahead as effectively as a rogue would, then it's your fault and not the player's.
In combat sometimes it would make sense for an intelligent being i.e an enemy wizard to make a quick work of a familiar because they know that the familiar aids the caster. If, however, you have everyone and their dog attacking the familiar from the get-go then you are making a very fun and effective spell completely worthless and you are initiating an antagonistic environment between you and the player. Expect that wizard to cast animate objects (tiny) later and demand to do 10 separate attacks on his turn plus his own action, as per RAW. I would say that normally enemies would focus on the big dangers, which are the PC's, not an annoying animal.
Owls/hawks have long eye sight so 100 feet up in the air scouts pretty far. Near a building, 100' inside it pretty dam deep in though that doesn't work with the owl fans so much. And yes, I don't have the dog attack the owl that did a flyby. But the goblin archer in the back sure. Why because everyone knows of familiars this isn't some exotic knowledge only available to other wizards. Everyone has heard of a wizards familiar. The idea that you have to let the players walk all over the setting and no one will react in a logical way or it is antagonistic is absurd. Normal enemies who aren't near brain dead would kill the damn familiar, just like in many video games you wipe out the annoyances that take little effort to deal with before focusing in on the boss. It is like saying you wouldn't bother dispelling improved invisibility when the rogue is stabbing you. You don't have to devote many resources to deal with a familiar. You see a owl flying overhead mid day, you might think familiar and just shoot it down if you are up to no good.
Warlocks assuming they took the invisible options I have less of a issue with. You can't see it so shooting it down doesn't seem as likely. Its still an annoying action economy problem which gets worse with the new summon spells, woo hes taking 3 tuns of time to everyone else's 1. But at least it makes sense why people don't kill it, they can't see it. And yes animate objects tiny, or hordes of elemental slow the game to a crawl and are a bad design decision. The warlocks familiar Its better at scouting, but its an actual large class feature invested in so its not stepping on toes with a throw away ability. Its their thing almost as much as a rogues stealth is.
Even in places where not evreybody and their brother knows that wizards have familiars... Animal Companions are still really common. And disabling or killing those companions is a valid tactic because it often weakens the handler.
Secondly. As to Flock of Familiars. Go ahead and use Flock of Familiars as a level 9 spell if you make it to level 17. Apparantly that's not the average campaign length so that is it's own counter to this kind of defensive argument all on it's own. But even if you do get it. I appreciate you using Flock of Familiars for one of your very valuable level 9 spell slots. Now you have voluntarily shut down so many other more powerful spells that I don't have to worry about. And you've made a pack of little things that die super easy if I decide they are annoying. There are so many ways to kill familiars incidentally if it comes down to it that it's not even funny. You feel insulted because your familiar might or even will be killed in combat. But Most DM's don't even think about all of the ways they can and likely would die in non-combat scenario's to bother a player with. And Even if we ignore all that. Flock of Familiars takes a minute, only lasts an hour, and is a concentration spell. That is a triple whammy of problem for the spells all on it's own. Because if you cast it in combat I get to ruin your spell or beat you to death in that minute, If you cast it out of combat, It's only useful for an hour max and to use it in combat it better be within that hour, And the Familiars might be worth being left alive so that you can't use any other concentration spells. But if they do get annoying you. Getting rid of them and killing you suddenly becomes the same thing. Because beating on you is going to force Concentration Saves and if they don't fail sooner they will when you drop. So this is kind of low on the effective trolling meter.
The rest of the behaviors mentioned about how much time that your taking doing everything at the table. I'm not going to worry about that much. The other players at the table are likely to solve that for me because they are going to get annoyed sitting around waiting for you to take each of your turns. So your attempt to troll me as the DM. Misses it Mark and ends up with a different kind of backlash.
No it doesn't, if you are being a such a bad DM and aggressively targeting familiars with everything just to tax a player 50 or 60 gp a day.
The backlash will be caused by you and eventually, you will reap what you sow.
If on the other hand you and a handful of friends actually like sitting around sniping familiars to your hearts content then have it. Each to his own.
But it isn't logical, for example if a barbarian cuts off someone's arm, they're going to target the owl that gave the barbarian advantage so he can't do that again?... in what world?
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Leaving the familiarcide battle alone - keep in mind that a round/turn represents only 6 seconds of time not the minutes it takes us to play it out. Even assuming the owl dives 30’ to fly past a foe then 30’ back up so it’s out of range of AoE and OAs how long would you be distracted by having an owl nearly take your head off swooping past you? Any significant action to take your mind off what I’m doing is going to give me advantage during that 6 second period. That is all the owl is doing - forcing your attention off my actions to improve ( not guarantee) my chances of success.
Wait, do you all only use the familiar's help action to benefit you all? Cause I am using it so my paladin and fighter can hit things easier and keep an enemy's attention. It is not much, but it helps a bit since they can't attack really.
Wait, do you all only use the familiar's help action to benefit you all? Cause I am using it so my paladin and fighter can hit things easier and keep an enemy's attention. It is not much, but it helps a bit since they can't attack really.
from what ive seen bladesingers i see use it for themselves, every other mage its usually on the GWM fighter, rogue etc.
If you go to this thread we've talked about it extensively as well as I posted a breakdown on every Familiar. TL;HR: Owl is clearly the best familiar for mechanical reasons in combat. Other familiars have better scouting or RP. Darkvision 120' Training in Perception: Passive Perception: 13, but is probably 18 because it has Keen Hearing and Sight gives it Adv (+5) to all vision and hearing tests (see 99.999% of all tests) Training in Stealth Fly 60' with Flyby attack means baddies don't get AoOs against the owl.
This means the Owl can give the Help Action every turn in combat either to the Wizard to someone else (Hint: The Rogue probably deserves it more!). Other casters will often ask for "the assist" if they are about to cast a big attack spell. If the owl and you have radically different Inits, I've had the baddie die and the action wasted, but it's a "Help Action" so I'm not upset. I learn to plan better or there was nothing I could have done. Also the Help Action isn't wasted if the Owl is at the bottom of the Initiative, it's active until the Owl's next Initiative.
Does that mean an enemy with a ranged attack can make an attempt at an owl with it's pathetic AC:11? YES! Are they normally going to bother? No. I've only ever had my familiar die from a fireball inside a building. With a flight of 60' my owl is usually 30' feet up in the air and so out of melee, most AoEs, or uses it's movement to block LOS or get a +2 AC from cover from an ally.
Basic rule of thumb. The GM will either roll the Owl's init separately or have it act on your init (I've seen both). If it acts on your Init (like a mount) have it act 1st: fly out give Help, fly away) then you get your attack with Adv. If the owl rolls it's own Init. Hope it goes just before you, if not "oh well". Have it "help" the best person, that might be you it might be someone else (hint: The Rogue).
Please check out this thread about Familiars Helping every turn to give the Wizard Adv on passive Perception checks during travel. There is some good discussion on it.
Wait, i'm confused. In this example, lets say there 5 PC including Owl and 2 enemies. Owl gets initiative spot #2, the Wizard whose owl it is gets #6 spot. You're saying if the Owl uses the Help Action, it could give advantage to the Wizard still whose in spot #6, even if #3, #4 or #5 were all PC characters who used an attack roll?
Its confusing, many people (even Jeremy Crawford in 2017) said if you give Help its the next attack roll against that enemy that has advantage, but i've heard many others say no you choose who gets the advantage.
Anyone know the correct way or is it really just DM choice since its too vague for a clear ruling?
At our table, if someone wants to have their familiar use the “Help” action in combat, we at least require that the player explain how his familiar is helping, even if that is something as simple as distracting the enemy in some fashion.
I think it is supposed to help the next action but for ease of use a lot of people let it help the wizard as then only they need to keep track of it. Also the wizard can pick a enemy who isn't a active target of the fighter etc so they are the next attacker. Honestly it is a unusual build where the wizard getting the advantage is the better play. Advantage on what a cantrip? Even for a warlock I'm not sure its a massive add as its just the first eldritch blast. Help the rogues enemy, their one attack is big and advantage gives them a sneak attack even if the enemy has no one else in melee etc.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Having a familiar is trolling the entire party with the wrong player. why scout ahead rogue I have a familiar, lol I get two turns in combat etc. players like that seem obsessed with making sure they are the star in every scene to the detriment of every other player. And the idea a enemy is going to let this owl flutter in its face so the rogue can get a good shot in round after round is absurd. Killing the familiar aggressively is what makes sense in the setting, kill the easy things that are distractions so you can focus on your real enemy. And letting players know in advance that familiars aren't some great mystery, almost everyone on the planet is aware wizards have familiars so people will target them isn't trolling them. Its letting people know in advance how the setting works. The trick you like to abuse wont fly at every table.
The familiar is only an effective scouting tool within 100ft, where the caster can use the bond to look through the familiars eyes and map out in detail what lies ahead. During that time, the caster is blind and deaf and all sorts of shenanigans can occur. Further away than 100ft the familiar is nowhere near as effective as a rogue. The familiar takes the form of an animal and acts like one. If a caster instructs the familiar (say owl for example) to scout 10 miles ahead, the owl may come back and report about rabbits and trees. If the caster specifically instructs the familiar to go look for "insert specific clue" then the familiar most likely wouldn't know what that thing which is being asked of it is. If you are allowing familiars to scout ahead as effectively as a rogue would, then it's your fault and not the player's.
In combat sometimes it would make sense for an intelligent being i.e an enemy wizard to make a quick work of a familiar because they know that the familiar aids the caster. If, however, you have everyone and their dog attacking the familiar from the get-go then you are making a very fun and effective spell completely worthless and you are initiating an antagonistic environment between you and the player. Expect that wizard to cast animate objects (tiny) later and demand to do 10 separate attacks on his turn plus his own action, as per RAW. I would say that normally enemies would focus on the big dangers, which are the PC's, not an annoying animal.
Owls/hawks have long eye sight so 100 feet up in the air scouts pretty far. Near a building, 100' inside it pretty dam deep in though that doesn't work with the owl fans so much. And yes, I don't have the dog attack the owl that did a flyby. But the goblin archer in the back sure. Why because everyone knows of familiars this isn't some exotic knowledge only available to other wizards. Everyone has heard of a wizards familiar. The idea that you have to let the players walk all over the setting and no one will react in a logical way or it is antagonistic is absurd. Normal enemies who aren't near brain dead would kill the damn familiar, just like in many video games you wipe out the annoyances that take little effort to deal with before focusing in on the boss. It is like saying you wouldn't bother dispelling improved invisibility when the rogue is stabbing you. You don't have to devote many resources to deal with a familiar. You see a owl flying overhead mid day, you might think familiar and just shoot it down if you are up to no good.
Warlocks assuming they took the invisible options I have less of a issue with. You can't see it so shooting it down doesn't seem as likely. Its still an annoying action economy problem which gets worse with the new summon spells, woo hes taking 3 tuns of time to everyone else's 1. But at least it makes sense why people don't kill it, they can't see it. And yes animate objects tiny, or hordes of elemental slow the game to a crawl and are a bad design decision. The warlocks familiar Its better at scouting, but its an actual large class feature invested in so its not stepping on toes with a throw away ability. Its their thing almost as much as a rogues stealth is.
Two Things.
Even in places where not evreybody and their brother knows that wizards have familiars... Animal Companions are still really common. And disabling or killing those companions is a valid tactic because it often weakens the handler.
Secondly. As to Flock of Familiars. Go ahead and use Flock of Familiars as a level 9 spell if you make it to level 17. Apparantly that's not the average campaign length so that is it's own counter to this kind of defensive argument all on it's own. But even if you do get it. I appreciate you using Flock of Familiars for one of your very valuable level 9 spell slots. Now you have voluntarily shut down so many other more powerful spells that I don't have to worry about. And you've made a pack of little things that die super easy if I decide they are annoying. There are so many ways to kill familiars incidentally if it comes down to it that it's not even funny. You feel insulted because your familiar might or even will be killed in combat. But Most DM's don't even think about all of the ways they can and likely would die in non-combat scenario's to bother a player with. And Even if we ignore all that. Flock of Familiars takes a minute, only lasts an hour, and is a concentration spell. That is a triple whammy of problem for the spells all on it's own. Because if you cast it in combat I get to ruin your spell or beat you to death in that minute, If you cast it out of combat, It's only useful for an hour max and to use it in combat it better be within that hour, And the Familiars might be worth being left alive so that you can't use any other concentration spells. But if they do get annoying you. Getting rid of them and killing you suddenly becomes the same thing. Because beating on you is going to force Concentration Saves and if they don't fail sooner they will when you drop. So this is kind of low on the effective trolling meter.
The rest of the behaviors mentioned about how much time that your taking doing everything at the table. I'm not going to worry about that much. The other players at the table are likely to solve that for me because they are going to get annoyed sitting around waiting for you to take each of your turns. So your attempt to troll me as the DM. Misses it Mark and ends up with a different kind of backlash.
No it doesn't, if you are being a such a bad DM and aggressively targeting familiars with everything just to tax a player 50 or 60 gp a day.
The backlash will be caused by you and eventually, you will reap what you sow.
If on the other hand you and a handful of friends actually like sitting around sniping familiars to your hearts content then have it. Each to his own.
But it isn't logical, for example if a barbarian cuts off someone's arm, they're going to target the owl that gave the barbarian advantage so he can't do that again?... in what world?
Leaving the familiarcide battle alone - keep in mind that a round/turn represents only 6 seconds of time not the minutes it takes us to play it out. Even assuming the owl dives 30’ to fly past a foe then 30’ back up so it’s out of range of AoE and OAs how long would you be distracted by having an owl nearly take your head off swooping past you? Any significant action to take your mind off what I’m doing is going to give me advantage during that 6 second period. That is all the owl is doing - forcing your attention off my actions to improve ( not guarantee) my chances of success.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Wait, do you all only use the familiar's help action to benefit you all? Cause I am using it so my paladin and fighter can hit things easier and keep an enemy's attention. It is not much, but it helps a bit since they can't attack really.
from what ive seen bladesingers i see use it for themselves, every other mage its usually on the GWM fighter, rogue etc.
Ah ok. I have been using it with Echo Knight and Paladin in my party.
Wait, i'm confused. In this example, lets say there 5 PC including Owl and 2 enemies. Owl gets initiative spot #2, the Wizard whose owl it is gets #6 spot. You're saying if the Owl uses the Help Action, it could give advantage to the Wizard still whose in spot #6, even if #3, #4 or #5 were all PC characters who used an attack roll?
Its confusing, many people (even Jeremy Crawford in 2017) said if you give Help its the next attack roll against that enemy that has advantage, but i've heard many others say no you choose who gets the advantage.
Anyone know the correct way or is it really just DM choice since its too vague for a clear ruling?
At our table, if someone wants to have their familiar use the “Help” action in combat, we at least require that the player explain how his familiar is helping, even if that is something as simple as distracting the enemy in some fashion.
I think it is supposed to help the next action but for ease of use a lot of people let it help the wizard as then only they need to keep track of it. Also the wizard can pick a enemy who isn't a active target of the fighter etc so they are the next attacker. Honestly it is a unusual build where the wizard getting the advantage is the better play. Advantage on what a cantrip? Even for a warlock I'm not sure its a massive add as its just the first eldritch blast. Help the rogues enemy, their one attack is big and advantage gives them a sneak attack even if the enemy has no one else in melee etc.