Mirror image has some issues as it tends to slow game play with it's roll to determine target then using a different ac than the target and it also being useless against any spell that requires a save even if it requires being targeted.
So my quick fix is to make mirror image perform like the cloaker's phantasms ability, as this seems to solve most of the issues with the mirror image spell.
So the reason behind this post is to see if it still feels balanced with those changes as I have already have a few reservations with high ac casters like swordmages and EK's possibly being able nullify an additional 3 attacks when they are already very unlikely to be hit.
Are there any other foreseeable issues with this homebrew that I've missed?
So my quick fix is to make mirror image perform like the cloaker's phantasms ability, as this seems to solve most of the issues with the mirror image spell.
How do you interpret the Cloaker having a different effect than Mirror Image? In both instances you're randomly determining if the character or a stand in is being targeted and then determining if that target is hit or not. Are you changing the odds when a player has 3 duplicates vs 1 or always using a 50/50 chance? The numbers for mirror image just represent the changes in likelihood of targeting the real player as there are fewer illusions and already favor the attacker vs a random chance (55% with 1 , 40% with 2, 30% with 3 for the RAW for the spell, 50% with one, 33.3% with 2, 25% with 3 with random chance).
The spell as written gives the attacker a boost vs random chance at every interval of illusions, so if you're just making it a straight 50/50 to "randomly determine what is hit" you're diminishing it even more.
The Cloaker's version is vastly superior to Mirror Image.
Mirror Image ONLY defends against an "attack" therefore it only defends against something that rolls a d20 to attack you. In addition the AC of a Mirror Image is 10+Dex, so the Mirror Images do not account for the actual AC of the Caster.
Phantasm states that whenever a creature targets the cloaker with an attack or a harmful spell. Roll Randomly to determine if it targets the cloaker or a duplicate (so the same rules as Mirror Image can apply here). A Phtasmal Duplicate has the same AC as a Cloaker as well as the same Saving Throws.
Question. A fireball can't target Mirror Image, so all of your mirrors would stay. How does a Cloaker with Phantasm handle a fireball? does it target a random Duplicate, or would it hit all Duplicates?
Mirror image works the way it works on purpose. Giving spellcasters an easy out against single target spells (counterspell, dispel magic, disintegrate, power word kill, hold person...) for only the cost of a 2nd level spell (not even concentration!) is too powerful. The closest thing to that is Greater Invisibility, which is a 4th level spell that does require concentration.
The Cloaker's version is vastly superior to Mirror Image.
Mirror Image ONLY defends against an "attack" therefore it only defends against something that rolls a d20 to attack you. In addition the AC of a Mirror Image is 10+Dex, so the Mirror Images do not account for the actual AC of the Caster.
Phantasm states that whenever a creature targets the cloaker with an attack or a harmful spell. Roll Randomly to determine if it targets the cloaker or a duplicate (so the same rules as Mirror Image can apply here). A Phtasmal Duplicate has the same AC as a Cloaker as well as the same Saving Throws
I agree that phantasm is more powerful but I think it feels out of whack to have a spell that has to target you to just magically go through.
also for speed of play rolling, then just rolling to see if it hit an image or not is way more elegant than rolling a d20 to determine if it hit an image informing the dm then rolling to hit the image's ac and then determining if it hit the image.
For the average caster the actual differences are minor (except for that it is massively faster to resolve) it's only when you get gishes with high ac's that it might get problematic.
Question. A fireball can't target Mirror Image, so all of your mirrors would stay. How does a Cloaker with Phantasm handle a fireball? does it target a random Duplicate, or would it hit all Duplicates?
Depends on how far apart the duplicates are. Since it's an AoE it's plausible that you could get all of them with a single blast. If it's only able to hit fewer than all the Cloakers, as a DM I would roll to see if the actual cloaker was one of the targets, and then check saves/etc and go accordingly. That makes the most sense for AoE spells.
My question:
If an attack hits a duplicate, or if a duplicate fails a saving throw against an effect that deals damage, the duplicate disappears.
Would AoE damage KO a duplicate? RAW says that the duplicate can take/ignore the damage, it only vanishes when an attack hits or it fails a saving throw, but what if it saved for a fireball and took half damage? Personally I would KO it, but wondering how other DMs feel about that.
My thought is the Cloaker's duplicates don't take up any extra space on the board. They are all shifting inside the Cloakers' 10'x10' square a Large creature takes up, obviously the Cloaker isn't 10'x10' large!
Any attack that would hit the Cloaker has a chance of hitting the Phantasms. If an AoE targets the space the Cloaker is in, it would reasonably hit the Cloaker and all Phantasms, since they are all inside the spell and all have saves. Phantasm states if a duplicate is hit by an attack (d20) or fails a saving throw against an effect that deals damage the Duplicate disappears. So an AoE would cause the Cloaker and all current Phantasms to make saving throws and any failed Phantasms would disappear.
I actually had to reread it, I thought the Phantasms disappeared if they took any damage, and so a failed saving throw would still deal damage for any non-cantrip AoE.
My thought is the Cloaker's duplicates don't take up any extra space on the board. They are all shifting inside the Cloakers' 10'x10' square a Large creature takes up, obviously the Cloaker isn't 10'x10' large!
Wait, what? Why? Large sized creatures are between 8-16 feet tall. Medium characters aren't 5x5 (typically) but the threaten a space that size. A cloaker is large and therefor takes up more space. Are you imaging this more as a Blur type effect because I just assumed that they looked like a horde of cloakers, swerving back and forth through the spaces they occupy when they create that effect.
A Cloaker threatens a 10'x10x10(?)' cube. D&D doesn't really worry about the Z-axis that much. At any moment during a combat round the Cloaker is assumed to be occupying somewhere, therefore everywhere, within that cube.
So if an AoE hits any space inside the Cloaker's threatening area it hits the Cloaker.
Phantasms doesn't say the Duplicates take up more space and so all 1-3 Phantasms and the Cloaker take up the same10'x10x10(?)' cube.
This is different from the Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity, which takes up it's own space.
No, I was thinking that they each take up their own 10x10 space but that they keep shuffling around like 3 card monte so you don't know which one is the real cloaker. I would imagine that a full contingent of cloaker duplicates (and the cloaker) would take up at LEAST a 20x20 space (you could still get them all with a single fireball since you could just target the center point of them).
I think the phantasms would have to make saves and would fade if they failed which means a well placed snowball swarm could end the effect...
Which actually makes me think that the swapping the effects is probably just fine considering odds are that it's not going to last for very long in combat.
The real question with fireball vs cloaker is if fireball dispels the phantasms since they disappear if they are in an area of bright light?
I would rule no as the light is temporary and not part of the spell description. fire shield however would as it had a light radius as part of the spell description but guiding bolt wouldn't to spite it doing radiant and leaving lingering light behind.
The rule of thumb is if it has a light radius in the spell description then it should dispel the effect by raw, rule of cool however would be to play it by what seems more epic at the time and I can definitely see a well roleplayed fireball being used to cause the effect...
I would usually make my players use special components to add minor tweaks to spells something like adding a light effect to a fire ball would be like adding a sun themed component like sunflower seeds if the light was basically harmless or something like a sunstone if it created brilliant blinding light that would require a save or being dazzled. To get rid of the cloakers images I would probably make them have to use a sunstone as what they are attempting actually has significant game effects and they should have to spend resources to get such an effect.
The problem I've encountered is when an enemy attacks me with a roll lower than my AC and higher than my duplicates. If I roll and the duplicate takes the attack, it is destroyed without me gaining any benefit. Since my AC is about 10 higher than my duplicate's AC, this comes up a lot.
You're playing the spell wrong. You first roll to see if the attack hits you or a duplicate, then you roll to see if it hits its target. This may seem insignificant, but it isn't.
Also, why is this in the wizard forum? Mirror Image is used by Wizards, yeah, but also by Sorcerers, Warlocks, Trickery Clerics, and Circle of the Coast Druids.
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"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
That is exactly how I am playing it and how I described. If I roll and the attack is targeted to the duplicate and is higher than its AC but would not have broken through my AC than that duplicate is wasted.
Also, why is this in the wizard forum? Mirror Image is used by Wizards, yeah, but also by Sorcerers, Warlocks, Trickery Clerics, and Circle of the Coast Druids.
Honestly it was just because I was playing a wizard when I ran into this being annoying and game slowing.
I agree and think this is waaay better than the regular mirror image as a DM. I’m home brewing this spell- going to jack it up a level to 3rd to reflect the small bit of power creep from the AC diff
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Mirror image has some issues as it tends to slow game play with it's roll to determine target then using a different ac than the target and it also being useless against any spell that requires a save even if it requires being targeted.
So my quick fix is to make mirror image perform like the cloaker's phantasms ability, as this seems to solve most of the issues with the mirror image spell.
So the reason behind this post is to see if it still feels balanced with those changes as I have already have a few reservations with high ac casters like swordmages and EK's possibly being able nullify an additional 3 attacks when they are already very unlikely to be hit.
Are there any other foreseeable issues with this homebrew that I've missed?
The spell as written gives the attacker a boost vs random chance at every interval of illusions, so if you're just making it a straight 50/50 to "randomly determine what is hit" you're diminishing it even more.
The Cloaker's version is vastly superior to Mirror Image.
Mirror Image ONLY defends against an "attack" therefore it only defends against something that rolls a d20 to attack you.
In addition the AC of a Mirror Image is 10+Dex, so the Mirror Images do not account for the actual AC of the Caster.
Phantasm states that whenever a creature targets the cloaker with an attack or a harmful spell.
Roll Randomly to determine if it targets the cloaker or a duplicate (so the same rules as Mirror Image can apply here).
A Phtasmal Duplicate has the same AC as a Cloaker as well as the same Saving Throws.
Question. A fireball can't target Mirror Image, so all of your mirrors would stay.
How does a Cloaker with Phantasm handle a fireball? does it target a random Duplicate, or would it hit all Duplicates?
Mirror image works the way it works on purpose. Giving spellcasters an easy out against single target spells (counterspell, dispel magic, disintegrate, power word kill, hold person...) for only the cost of a 2nd level spell (not even concentration!) is too powerful. The closest thing to that is Greater Invisibility, which is a 4th level spell that does require concentration.
except that it doesn't.. it doesn't work at all on any spell that requires a save.
Edit: sorry my derp I read that as you saying it did work on those, teaches me to post while wresting a toddler.
I agree that phantasm is more powerful but I think it feels out of whack to have a spell that has to target you to just magically go through.
also for speed of play rolling, then just rolling to see if it hit an image or not is way more elegant than rolling a d20 to determine if it hit an image informing the dm then rolling to hit the image's ac and then determining if it hit the image.
For the average caster the actual differences are minor (except for that it is massively faster to resolve) it's only when you get gishes with high ac's that it might get problematic.
My thought is the Cloaker's duplicates don't take up any extra space on the board. They are all shifting inside the Cloakers' 10'x10' square a Large creature takes up, obviously the Cloaker isn't 10'x10' large!
Any attack that would hit the Cloaker has a chance of hitting the Phantasms.
If an AoE targets the space the Cloaker is in, it would reasonably hit the Cloaker and all Phantasms, since they are all inside the spell and all have saves.
Phantasm states if a duplicate is hit by an attack (d20) or fails a saving throw against an effect that deals damage the Duplicate disappears.
So an AoE would cause the Cloaker and all current Phantasms to make saving throws and any failed Phantasms would disappear.
I actually had to reread it, I thought the Phantasms disappeared if they took any damage, and so a failed saving throw would still deal damage for any non-cantrip AoE.
I think we're arguing the same point.
A Cloaker threatens a 10'x10x10(?)' cube. D&D doesn't really worry about the Z-axis that much.
At any moment during a combat round the Cloaker is assumed to be occupying somewhere, therefore everywhere, within that cube.
So if an AoE hits any space inside the Cloaker's threatening area it hits the Cloaker.
Phantasms doesn't say the Duplicates take up more space and so all 1-3 Phantasms and the Cloaker take up the same10'x10x10(?)' cube.
This is different from the Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity, which takes up it's own space.
No, I was thinking that they each take up their own 10x10 space but that they keep shuffling around like 3 card monte so you don't know which one is the real cloaker. I would imagine that a full contingent of cloaker duplicates (and the cloaker) would take up at LEAST a 20x20 space (you could still get them all with a single fireball since you could just target the center point of them).
I think the phantasms would have to make saves and would fade if they failed which means a well placed snowball swarm could end the effect...
Which actually makes me think that the swapping the effects is probably just fine considering odds are that it's not going to last for very long in combat.
The real question with fireball vs cloaker is if fireball dispels the phantasms since they disappear if they are in an area of bright light?
I would rule no as the light is temporary and not part of the spell description. fire shield however would as it had a light radius as part of the spell description but guiding bolt wouldn't to spite it doing radiant and leaving lingering light behind.
The rule of thumb is if it has a light radius in the spell description then it should dispel the effect by raw, rule of cool however would be to play it by what seems more epic at the time and I can definitely see a well roleplayed fireball being used to cause the effect...
I would usually make my players use special components to add minor tweaks to spells something like adding a light effect to a fire ball would be like adding a sun themed component like sunflower seeds if the light was basically harmless or something like a sunstone if it created brilliant blinding light that would require a save or being dazzled. To get rid of the cloakers images I would probably make them have to use a sunstone as what they are attempting actually has significant game effects and they should have to spend resources to get such an effect.
The problem I've encountered is when an enemy attacks me with a roll lower than my AC and higher than my duplicates. If I roll and the duplicate takes the attack, it is destroyed without me gaining any benefit. Since my AC is about 10 higher than my duplicate's AC, this comes up a lot.
You're playing the spell wrong. You first roll to see if the attack hits you or a duplicate, then you roll to see if it hits its target. This may seem insignificant, but it isn't.
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
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Also, why is this in the wizard forum? Mirror Image is used by Wizards, yeah, but also by Sorcerers, Warlocks, Trickery Clerics, and Circle of the Coast Druids.
"Halt your wagging and wag your halters, for I am mastercryomancer!"
Check out my Expanded Signature
That is exactly how I am playing it and how I described. If I roll and the attack is targeted to the duplicate and is higher than its AC but would not have broken through my AC than that duplicate is wasted.
Honestly it was just because I was playing a wizard when I ran into this being annoying and game slowing.
I agree and think this is waaay better than the regular mirror image as a DM. I’m home brewing this spell- going to jack it up a level to 3rd to reflect the small bit of power creep from the AC diff