None of the spells from the Elemental Evil Player's Guide are available for the new Artificer unless they were reprinted in a different book. For example, I cannot add Catapult or Pyrotechnics, but I can add Booming Blade and Ice Knife. They are still available for the legacy version of the Artificer.
None of the spells from the Elemental Evil Player's Guide are available for the new Artificer unless they were reprinted in a different book. For example, I cannot add Catapult or Pyrotechnics, but I can add Booming Blade and Ice Knife. They are still available for the legacy version of the Artificer.
There’s been an extensive discussion of this issue in this thread; if you scroll back you can see the details. The gist of the current situation is that we won’t see any changes until after the holiday weekend, when the devs will have a chance to evaluate the issue.
I mean, Booming Blade (and others) originally appeared in SCAG in 2015, it did not appear in E:RftLW in 2019 but it did appear later in TCoE in 2020. SCAG obviously doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. E:RftLW doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell. Booming Blade wasn't added to the Artificer Spell List until TCoE and hasn't been mentioned as an Artificer Spell anywhere else.
Absorb Elements (and others) originally appeared in EEPC / PotA in 2015, it also appears in XGtE in 2017, and E:RftLW in 2019, and TCoE in 2020. EEPC and PotA obviously doesn't call out Absorb Elements as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. Likewise, XGtE doesn't either for the same reason. Unlike Booming Blade, which was NOT added to the Artificer in E:RftLW in 2019, Absorb Elements WAS added to the Artificer at this point. It also appears for Artificers in TCoE in 2020.
What is it about Booming Blade that passed the "We should add this to the list now" check, but Absorb Elements didn't pass the same check? Where is Booming Blade mentioned as an Artificer Spell outside of TCoE? The only difference I'm seeing is that Booming Blade (and others) originated in SCAG and were not added to XGtE or to E:RftLW, but were added to TCoE, whereas Absorb Elements (and others) originated in EEPC / PotA and were added to XGtE, and to E:RtLW, and to TCoE.
To restate what's already been stated repeatedly for those who refuse to read earlier posts:
When the Artificer class was released in ERftLW, it was released with a base spell list. This set the basis of what spells are Artificer spells for the 2014 Artificer. It called on a set of 15 spells that were printed in XGtE (many of which were also in EEPC, but that's not relevant). This list was the Artificer's equivalent to the base lists printed in the PHB for the other classes.
When other books came out and added spells to the Artificer (TCoE, FToD, SAiS, and SaCoC), those spells explicitly make themselves additional class spells. This isn't based on the class spell list, it's based on a new source adding spells to the list. So those spells are considered Artificer spells independently of the class spell list.
Now, the base class spell list is updated with the release of the 2024 Artificer. Any spells that it doesn't call on that were part of the base spell list are not Artificer spells from a RAW reading of the rules. Any that add themselves to the class spell list are. For an example, Vortex Warp was brought up before, and just as it's still a Wizard spell on 2024 Wizard, it's still an Artificer spell.
This has unfortunate results for the 15 spells printed in Xanathar's because they were part of the base spell list. It's possible this was unintended, but until the answer of intent is certain, that's how the rules fall as written.
Now, until we get an official answer on the intent, can we PLEASE let this rest and leave the thread free for ACTUAL bug reports? Y'all are cluttering a bug report thread with how you feel about this. Make your own thread if you want to discuss how you feel about it.
I mean, Booming Blade (and others) originally appeared in SCAG in 2015, it did not appear in E:RftLW in 2019 but it did appear later in TCoE in 2020. SCAG obviously doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. E:RftLW doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell. Booming Blade wasn't added to the Artificer Spell List until TCoE and hasn't been mentioned as an Artificer Spell anywhere else.
Absorb Elements (and others) originally appeared in EEPC / PotA in 2015, it also appears in XGtE in 2017, and E:RftLW in 2019, and TCoE in 2020. EEPC and PotA obviously doesn't call out Absorb Elements as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. Likewise, XGtE doesn't either for the same reason. Unlike Booming Blade, which was NOT added to the Artificer in E:RftLW in 2019, Absorb Elements WAS added to the Artificer at this point. It also appears for Artificers in TCoE in 2020.
What is it about Booming Blade that passed the "We should add this to the list now" check, but Absorb Elements didn't pass the same check? Where is Booming Blade mentioned as an Artificer Spell outside of TCoE? The only difference I'm seeing is that Booming Blade (and others) originated in SCAG and were not added to XGtE or to E:RftLW, but were added to TCoE, whereas Absorb Elements (and others) originated in EEPC / PotA and were added to XGtE, and to E:RtLW, and to TCoE.
To restate what's already been stated repeatedly for those who refuse to read earlier posts:
When the Artificer class was released in ERftLW, it was released with a base spell list. This set the basis of what spells are Artificer spells for the 2014 Artificer. It called on a set of 15 spells that were printed in XGtE (many of which were also in EEPC, but that's not relevant). This list was the Artificer's equivalent to the base lists printed in the PHB for the other classes.
When other books came out and added spells to the Artificer (TCoE, FToD, SAiS, and SaCoC), those spells explicitly make themselves additional class spells. This isn't based on the class spell list, it's based on a new source adding spells to the list. So those spells are considered Artificer spells independently of the class spell list.
Now, the base class spell list is updated with the release of the 2024 Artificer. Any spells that it doesn't call on that were part of the base spell list are not Artificer spells from a RAW reading of the rules. Any that add themselves to the class spell list are. For an example, Vortex Warp was brought up before, and just as it's still a Wizard spell on 2024 Wizard, it's still an Artificer spell.
This has unfortunate results for the 15 spells printed in Xanathar's because they were part of the base spell list. It's possible this was unintended, but until the answer of intent is certain, that's how the rules fall as written.
Now, until we get an official answer on the intent, can we PLEASE let this rest and leave the thread free for ACTUAL bug reports? Y'all are cluttering a bug report thread with how you feel about this. Make your own thread if you want to discuss how you feel about it.
No, this seems like a perfectly reasonable location for people to post about issues with DnDB's Artificer. It's a Support and Issues thread....
the Potent Dragonmark feat does none of the things it is supposed to do. it does not increase the associated stat, it does not grant the extra spell slot, and it does not prepare any of the spells from the base dragonmark feat
Speaking of already reported issues...
Why does nobody read bug threads to see if they're already reported before posting?
the Potent Dragonmark feat does none of the things it is supposed to do. it does not increase the associated stat, it does not grant the extra spell slot, and it does not prepare any of the spells from the base dragonmark feat
Speaking of already reported issues...
Why does nobody read bug threads to see if they're already reported before posting?
Dosen't need to be a bug. It's an issue with the way the class is presented on DNDB. Since it's an issue and not a bug people have the right to post their argument on why they think it should be fixed.
I mean, Booming Blade (and others) originally appeared in SCAG in 2015, it did not appear in E:RftLW in 2019 but it did appear later in TCoE in 2020. SCAG obviously doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. E:RftLW doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell. Booming Blade wasn't added to the Artificer Spell List until TCoE and hasn't been mentioned as an Artificer Spell anywhere else.
Absorb Elements (and others) originally appeared in EEPC / PotA in 2015, it also appears in XGtE in 2017, and E:RftLW in 2019, and TCoE in 2020. EEPC and PotA obviously doesn't call out Absorb Elements as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. Likewise, XGtE doesn't either for the same reason. Unlike Booming Blade, which was NOT added to the Artificer in E:RftLW in 2019, Absorb Elements WAS added to the Artificer at this point. It also appears for Artificers in TCoE in 2020.
What is it about Booming Blade that passed the "We should add this to the list now" check, but Absorb Elements didn't pass the same check? Where is Booming Blade mentioned as an Artificer Spell outside of TCoE? The only difference I'm seeing is that Booming Blade (and others) originated in SCAG and were not added to XGtE or to E:RftLW, but were added to TCoE, whereas Absorb Elements (and others) originated in EEPC / PotA and were added to XGtE, and to E:RtLW, and to TCoE.
To restate what's already been stated repeatedly for those who refuse to read earlier posts:
When the Artificer class was released in ERftLW, it was released with a base spell list. This set the basis of what spells are Artificer spells for the 2014 Artificer. It called on a set of 15 spells that were printed in XGtE (many of which were also in EEPC, but that's not relevant). This list was the Artificer's equivalent to the base lists printed in the PHB for the other classes.
When other books came out and added spells to the Artificer (TCoE, FToD, SAiS, and SaCoC), those spells explicitly make themselves additional class spells. This isn't based on the class spell list, it's based on a new source adding spells to the list. So those spells are considered Artificer spells independently of the class spell list.
Now, the base class spell list is updated with the release of the 2024 Artificer. Any spells that it doesn't call on that were part of the base spell list are not Artificer spells from a RAW reading of the rules. Any that add themselves to the class spell list are. For an example, Vortex Warp was brought up before, and just as it's still a Wizard spell on 2024 Wizard, it's still an Artificer spell.
This has unfortunate results for the 15 spells printed in Xanathar's because they were part of the base spell list. It's possible this was unintended, but until the answer of intent is certain, that's how the rules fall as written.
Now, until we get an official answer on the intent, can we PLEASE let this rest and leave the thread free for ACTUAL bug reports? Y'all are cluttering a bug report thread with how you feel about this. Make your own thread if you want to discuss how you feel about it.
Firstly, I have read the earlier posts, don't presume to know what effort I've put in. You've conveniently cropped the part of my post where I acknowledged we will need to wait for the Devs to respond, which shows I had read the earlier posts.
Secondly, yes, the Artificer was first printed in E:RftLW, and it created a Base Spell List which included spells from XGtE (some of which were introduced in EEPC). However, I vehemently disagree with the point of TCoE being an Extended Spell List. TCoE reprinted the entire Class again, and even added an entire new Subclass that wasn't in E:RftLW. TCoE was Expanded Rules for everything BUT the Artificer. For the Artificer, it was a reintroduction to the Class. It wasn't an Expansion, it was a Re-baseline. The Artificer Spell List in TCoE is a NEW Base Spell List, not an Expanded Spell List, hence why every other Class got a "these are your new spells" whereas Artificers got "these are ALL of your spells". If they didn't reprint the entire Class and Subclasses that were previously printed, and only printed NEW stuff, then I'd agree that TCoE was an expansion to the Class. The fact that they only referenced certain spells instead of reprinting those (and adding more pages to the book) doesn't change the fact that the TCoE Artificer is a re-baseline of the entire Class.
Edit to Add: The Re-baseline / Reintroduction is evident by the fact that the Artificer section says, "Class Features" where the original 12 Classes say "Optional Class Features". The Artificer does not say "Optional". It's also evident by the fact that the Spellcasting Section, under "Class Features" says "Artificer Spell List", whereas every other Spellcasting Class in TCoE says "Additional X Spells" under the "Optional Class Features" section. Again, in addition to not saying "Optional", it doesn't say "Additional" - NOTHING about the Artificer in TCoE says that the spells and features are Optional or Additional, they're the BASE features and spells of that Class as of 2020. So, by your logic, Booming Blade and the other previously missing spells that HAVE been recognised as a bug and since added to 2024 Artificer, should not have been recognised as a bug at all, because TCoE is the 2014 Base Spell List, and their omission from the 2024 Base Spell List means they shouldn't be available for the 2024 Artificer. Yet, they have been added where other 2014 Base spells have not.
Thirdly/Finally, with respect - No, we won't let this rest because for many of us this IS an actual bug. You don't get to police what others discuss, but you are free to ignore posts that you don't wish to discuss any further. You say that we're cluttering the thread by adding our voices to those who also recognise this as a bug, and I say that the real clutter in this thread is every time you have responded to telling others to stop talking about it. You are not a moderator here, you have no authority to tell others what to post about. So, maybe take your own advice and stop cluttering the thread. Let people voice their concerns. There is a very valid reason why everyone who agrees that this is an issue should post a comment to add their voice - if only one person said it's an issue, perhaps the Devs would dismiss it and move on. However, if many share their concerns, perhaps that would spur the Devs to take heed and listen, and perhaps turn around and make a decision they might have otherwise not made. I would encourage EVERYONE who thinks the omission of spells like Absorb Elements and Catapult, that came from EEPC / XGtE, should add their comments HERE, so the Devs will know how big of an issue this is for many of us.
So, by your logic, Booming Blade and the other previously missing spells that HAVE been recognised as a bug and since added to 2024 Artificer, should not have been recognised as a bug at all, because TCoE is the 2014 Base Spell List, and their omission from the 2024 Base Spell List means they shouldn't be available for the 2024 Artificer. Yet, they have been added where other 2014 Base spells have not.
If you imagine this as an errata and fully replace the 2014 class section with the new one, that Spells section is still present and valid. It uses the same format shown in SACOC, FTOD, and SAIS as well.
But in this same scenario, what rule then qualifies Absorb Elements or Catapult?
If Absorb Elements isn't on the 2024 Artificer Spell list simply because the original printing of the Spell didn't list the Artificer class. Than that's frankly BS. The Artificer class didn't exist at the time of its printing. 2024 Ranger has Absorb Elements (not on its PHP class list, but because EEPC listed it as 2014 Ranger Spell). In 2014 TCoE fixed this by adding Absord Elements to the Artifcer spell list. This should be enough to have it added.
If not then what's the process to get WoTC to update Errata to EEPC and Sage Advice to fix that issue?
I still stand by this. Simply put any spell from from an Expand Rules Book that had the 2014 Artificer should be on the new Artificer Spell list.
So, by your logic, Booming Blade and the other previously missing spells that HAVE been recognised as a bug and since added to 2024 Artificer, should not have been recognised as a bug at all, because TCoE is the 2014 Base Spell List, and their omission from the 2024 Base Spell List means they shouldn't be available for the 2024 Artificer. Yet, they have been added where other 2014 Base spells have not.
If you imagine this as an errata and fully replace the 2014 class section with the new one, that Spells section is still present and valid. It uses the same format shown in SACOC, FTOD, and SAIS as well.
But in this same scenario, what rule then qualifies Absorb Elements or Catapult?
That section only exists to call these spells "new", despite the fact that they were originally printed in SCAG. Very similar to how Absorb Elements (among others) was listed as "new" in XGtE, despite the fact they were originally printed in EEPC. The only difference between Absorb Elements and Booming Blade, as far as the 2014 Artificer is concerned, is that XGtE came out before the Artificer, whereas TCoE came out after. If XGtE came out after the Artificer was introduced, those spells (Absorb Elements and others) would have been listed as "new" for the Artificer, the same as Booming Blade was in TCoE. It's literally just an issue of timing.
XGtE and TCoE are both expanded rules books, they should both be treated the same. If Booming Blade is "new" in TCoE, and Absorb Elements is "new" in XGtE (again, neither of those spells were actually "new" in their respective books) then they should be treated the same when determining if they belong on the 2024 Artificer Spell List.
XGtE also has a similarly formatted "New Spells" Section in Chapter 3, but, again, it's only "crime" is that it came out before the 2014 Artificer.
It seems like Absorb Elements (and the XGtE spells) are only being disqualified because they happen to have been printed before the 2014 Artificer was introduced, and because they weren't reprinted as "new" in TCoE, they were just called out as a reference.
Given how Heroes of Faerun implied that some Xanathar's refugee spells are being made into other things(Cold Caster turning Frostbite into a feat-given ability, & the PHB mashing Mold Earth, Control Flames, Shape Water & Gust into one weaker spell that has less creativity, being the obvious examples), & only salvaging so many orphaned spells, I'm worried that Absorb Elements is either going to become an aspect of a feat or be heavily re-written, given that it's not been re-added to the Artificer list.
Same as Catapult & the other orphan spells.
But it'd be nice to disclose this design philosophy is going to be even more of a thing going forward. &, when appropriate, remove said orphaned spells from 2024 lists to make the distinction clear.
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DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
So, by your logic, Booming Blade and the other previously missing spells that HAVE been recognised as a bug and since added to 2024 Artificer, should not have been recognised as a bug at all, because TCoE is the 2014 Base Spell List, and their omission from the 2024 Base Spell List means they shouldn't be available for the 2024 Artificer. Yet, they have been added where other 2014 Base spells have not.
If you imagine this as an errata and fully replace the 2014 class section with the new one, that Spells section is still present and valid. It uses the same format shown in SACOC, FTOD, and SAIS as well.
But in this same scenario, what rule then qualifies Absorb Elements or Catapult?
That section only exists to call these spells "new", despite the fact that they were originally printed in SCAG. Very similar to how Absorb Elements (among others) was listed as "new" in XGtE, despite the fact they were originally printed in EEPC. The only difference between Absorb Elements and Booming Blade, as far as the 2014 Artificer is concerned, is that XGtE came out before the Artificer, whereas TCoE came out after. If XGtE came out after the Artificer was introduced, those spells (Absorb Elements and others) would have been listed as "new" for the Artificer, the same as Booming Blade was in TCoE. It's literally just an issue of timing.
XGtE and TCoE are both expanded rules books, they should both be treated the same. If Booming Blade is "new" in TCoE, and Absorb Elements is "new" in XGtE (again, neither of those spells were actually "new" in their respective books) then they should be treated the same when determining if they belong on the 2024 Artificer Spell List.
XGtE also has a similarly formatted "New Spells" Section in Chapter 3, but, again, it's only "crime" is that it came out before the 2014 Artificer.
It seems like Absorb Elements (and the XGtE spells) are only being disqualified because they happen to have been printed before the 2014 Artificer was introduced, and because they weren't reprinted as "new" in TCoE, they were just called out as a reference.
the Potent Dragonmark feat does none of the things it is supposed to do. it does not increase the associated stat, it does not grant the extra spell slot, and it does not prepare any of the spells from the base dragonmark feat
Speaking of already reported issues...
Why does nobody read bug threads to see if they're already reported before posting?
Please stop trying to police this thread. You’re not a moderator, and you don’t have any authority to tell other users what they can or can’t report. It’s honestly quite frustrating to see you repeatedly try to dictate what others are allowed to post here.
This is also a thread with 12+ pages — it’s not reasonable to expect any user to scroll through all of that just to check whether a bug has already been mentioned. For the actual moderators, however, multiple reports can be a useful signal that certain issues are recurring or affecting a lot of people.
Thanks.
Public Mod Note
(spamandtuna):
Commentary (Spells)
I mean, Booming Blade (and others) originally appeared in SCAG in 2015, it did not appear in E:RftLW in 2019 but it did appear later in TCoE in 2020. SCAG obviously doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. E:RftLW doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell. Booming Blade wasn't added to the Artificer Spell List until TCoE and hasn't been mentioned as an Artificer Spell anywhere else.
Absorb Elements (and others) originally appeared in EEPC / PotA in 2015, it also appears in XGtE in 2017, and E:RftLW in 2019, and TCoE in 2020. EEPC and PotA obviously doesn't call out Absorb Elements as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. Likewise, XGtE doesn't either for the same reason. Unlike Booming Blade, which was NOT added to the Artificer in E:RftLW in 2019, Absorb Elements WAS added to the Artificer at this point. It also appears for Artificers in TCoE in 2020.
What is it about Booming Blade that passed the "We should add this to the list now" check, but Absorb Elements didn't pass the same check? Where is Booming Blade mentioned as an Artificer Spell outside of TCoE? The only difference I'm seeing is that Booming Blade (and others) originated in SCAG and were not added to XGtE or to E:RftLW, but were added to TCoE, whereas Absorb Elements (and others) originated in EEPC / PotA and were added to XGtE, and to E:RtLW, and to TCoE.
To restate what's already been stated repeatedly for those who refuse to read earlier posts:
When the Artificer class was released in ERftLW, it was released with a base spell list. This set the basis of what spells are Artificer spells for the 2014 Artificer. It called on a set of 15 spells that were printed in XGtE (many of which were also in EEPC, but that's not relevant). This list was the Artificer's equivalent to the base lists printed in the PHB for the other classes.
When other books came out and added spells to the Artificer (TCoE, FToD, SAiS, and SaCoC), those spells explicitly make themselves additional class spells. This isn't based on the class spell list, it's based on a new source adding spells to the list. So those spells are considered Artificer spells independently of the class spell list.
Now, the base class spell list is updated with the release of the 2024 Artificer. Any spells that it doesn't call on that were part of the base spell list are not Artificer spells from a RAW reading of the rules. Any that add themselves to the class spell list are. For an example, Vortex Warp was brought up before, and just as it's still a Wizard spell on 2024 Wizard, it's still an Artificer spell.
This has unfortunate results for the 15 spells printed in Xanathar's because they were part of the base spell list. It's possible this was unintended, but until the answer of intent is certain, that's how the rules fall as written.
Now, until we get an official answer on the intent, can we PLEASE let this rest and leave the thread free for ACTUAL bug reports? Y'all are cluttering a bug report thread with how you feel about this. Make your own thread if you want to discuss how you feel about it.
For ease of reference, does anyone have the list of 15 spells that are in limbo like this? its easy enough to homebrew until WotC fixes this, but Id rather not spend an hour comparing spell lists if someone else has it available.
I mean, Booming Blade (and others) originally appeared in SCAG in 2015, it did not appear in E:RftLW in 2019 but it did appear later in TCoE in 2020. SCAG obviously doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. E:RftLW doesn't call out Booming Blade as an Artificer Spell. Booming Blade wasn't added to the Artificer Spell List until TCoE and hasn't been mentioned as an Artificer Spell anywhere else.
Absorb Elements (and others) originally appeared in EEPC / PotA in 2015, it also appears in XGtE in 2017, and E:RftLW in 2019, and TCoE in 2020. EEPC and PotA obviously doesn't call out Absorb Elements as an Artificer Spell as the Artificer didn't exist then. Likewise, XGtE doesn't either for the same reason. Unlike Booming Blade, which was NOT added to the Artificer in E:RftLW in 2019, Absorb Elements WAS added to the Artificer at this point. It also appears for Artificers in TCoE in 2020.
What is it about Booming Blade that passed the "We should add this to the list now" check, but Absorb Elements didn't pass the same check? Where is Booming Blade mentioned as an Artificer Spell outside of TCoE? The only difference I'm seeing is that Booming Blade (and others) originated in SCAG and were not added to XGtE or to E:RftLW, but were added to TCoE, whereas Absorb Elements (and others) originated in EEPC / PotA and were added to XGtE, and to E:RtLW, and to TCoE.
To restate what's already been stated repeatedly for those who refuse to read earlier posts:
When the Artificer class was released in ERftLW, it was released with a base spell list. This set the basis of what spells are Artificer spells for the 2014 Artificer. It called on a set of 15 spells that were printed in XGtE (many of which were also in EEPC, but that's not relevant). This list was the Artificer's equivalent to the base lists printed in the PHB for the other classes.
When other books came out and added spells to the Artificer (TCoE, FToD, SAiS, and SaCoC), those spells explicitly make themselves additional class spells. This isn't based on the class spell list, it's based on a new source adding spells to the list. So those spells are considered Artificer spells independently of the class spell list.
Now, the base class spell list is updated with the release of the 2024 Artificer. Any spells that it doesn't call on that were part of the base spell list are not Artificer spells from a RAW reading of the rules. Any that add themselves to the class spell list are. For an example, Vortex Warp was brought up before, and just as it's still a Wizard spell on 2024 Wizard, it's still an Artificer spell.
This has unfortunate results for the 15 spells printed in Xanathar's because they were part of the base spell list. It's possible this was unintended, but until the answer of intent is certain, that's how the rules fall as written.
Now, until we get an official answer on the intent, can we PLEASE let this rest and leave the thread free for ACTUAL bug reports? Y'all are cluttering a bug report thread with how you feel about this. Make your own thread if you want to discuss how you feel about it.
For ease of reference, does anyone have the list of 15 spells that are in limbo like this? its easy enough to homebrew until WotC fixes this, but Id rather not spend an hour comparing spell lists if someone else has it available.
FYI, I’ve moved this conversation here to a new thread so I can better provide updates when available, and better identify the other bugs in the previous thread.
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FYI, I’ve moved this conversation here to a new thread so I can better provide updates when available, and better identify the other bugs in the previous thread.
Awesome. You previously said that we might have a solution after the holiday break. For clarification is that this week or in January 😅 ? Some companies take long breaks lol.
For the record, though, I still think this is already correct per the RAW, so I'm not promising a solution -- just some official clarification on the matter. If that does turn out to be the case, the solution would be to instead make a homebrew copy of the spell and it to their spell list. (Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to do the whole batch.)
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For the record, though, I still think this is already correct per the RAW, so I'm not promising a solution -- just some official clarification on the matter. If that does turn out to be the case, the solution would be to instead make a homebrew copy of the spell and it to their spell list. (Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to do the whole batch.)
Understood. Do you know the process to effect Errata and Sage Advice? If this ends up being a RAW vs. RAI then that seems the way to go.
None of the spells from the Elemental Evil Player's Guide are available for the new Artificer unless they were reprinted in a different book. For example, I cannot add Catapult or Pyrotechnics, but I can add Booming Blade and Ice Knife. They are still available for the legacy version of the Artificer.
There’s been an extensive discussion of this issue in this thread; if you scroll back you can see the details. The gist of the current situation is that we won’t see any changes until after the holiday weekend, when the devs will have a chance to evaluate the issue.
pronouns: he/she/they
To restate what's already been stated repeatedly for those who refuse to read earlier posts:
When the Artificer class was released in ERftLW, it was released with a base spell list. This set the basis of what spells are Artificer spells for the 2014 Artificer. It called on a set of 15 spells that were printed in XGtE (many of which were also in EEPC, but that's not relevant). This list was the Artificer's equivalent to the base lists printed in the PHB for the other classes.
When other books came out and added spells to the Artificer (TCoE, FToD, SAiS, and SaCoC), those spells explicitly make themselves additional class spells. This isn't based on the class spell list, it's based on a new source adding spells to the list. So those spells are considered Artificer spells independently of the class spell list.
Now, the base class spell list is updated with the release of the 2024 Artificer. Any spells that it doesn't call on that were part of the base spell list are not Artificer spells from a RAW reading of the rules. Any that add themselves to the class spell list are. For an example, Vortex Warp was brought up before, and just as it's still a Wizard spell on 2024 Wizard, it's still an Artificer spell.
This has unfortunate results for the 15 spells printed in Xanathar's because they were part of the base spell list. It's possible this was unintended, but until the answer of intent is certain, that's how the rules fall as written.
Now, until we get an official answer on the intent, can we PLEASE let this rest and leave the thread free for ACTUAL bug reports? Y'all are cluttering a bug report thread with how you feel about this. Make your own thread if you want to discuss how you feel about it.
No, this seems like a perfectly reasonable location for people to post about issues with DnDB's Artificer. It's a Support and Issues thread....
But it's not confirmed to be a bug and it's been reported already. You're missing 100% of the point.
Speaking of already reported issues...
Why does nobody read bug threads to see if they're already reported before posting?
Dosen't need to be a bug. It's an issue with the way the class is presented on DNDB. Since it's an issue and not a bug people have the right to post their argument on why they think it should be fixed.
Firstly, I have read the earlier posts, don't presume to know what effort I've put in. You've conveniently cropped the part of my post where I acknowledged we will need to wait for the Devs to respond, which shows I had read the earlier posts.
Secondly, yes, the Artificer was first printed in E:RftLW, and it created a Base Spell List which included spells from XGtE (some of which were introduced in EEPC). However, I vehemently disagree with the point of TCoE being an Extended Spell List. TCoE reprinted the entire Class again, and even added an entire new Subclass that wasn't in E:RftLW. TCoE was Expanded Rules for everything BUT the Artificer. For the Artificer, it was a reintroduction to the Class. It wasn't an Expansion, it was a Re-baseline. The Artificer Spell List in TCoE is a NEW Base Spell List, not an Expanded Spell List, hence why every other Class got a "these are your new spells" whereas Artificers got "these are ALL of your spells". If they didn't reprint the entire Class and Subclasses that were previously printed, and only printed NEW stuff, then I'd agree that TCoE was an expansion to the Class. The fact that they only referenced certain spells instead of reprinting those (and adding more pages to the book) doesn't change the fact that the TCoE Artificer is a re-baseline of the entire Class.
Edit to Add: The Re-baseline / Reintroduction is evident by the fact that the Artificer section says, "Class Features" where the original 12 Classes say "Optional Class Features". The Artificer does not say "Optional". It's also evident by the fact that the Spellcasting Section, under "Class Features" says "Artificer Spell List", whereas every other Spellcasting Class in TCoE says "Additional X Spells" under the "Optional Class Features" section. Again, in addition to not saying "Optional", it doesn't say "Additional" - NOTHING about the Artificer in TCoE says that the spells and features are Optional or Additional, they're the BASE features and spells of that Class as of 2020. So, by your logic, Booming Blade and the other previously missing spells that HAVE been recognised as a bug and since added to 2024 Artificer, should not have been recognised as a bug at all, because TCoE is the 2014 Base Spell List, and their omission from the 2024 Base Spell List means they shouldn't be available for the 2024 Artificer. Yet, they have been added where other 2014 Base spells have not.
Thirdly/Finally, with respect - No, we won't let this rest because for many of us this IS an actual bug. You don't get to police what others discuss, but you are free to ignore posts that you don't wish to discuss any further. You say that we're cluttering the thread by adding our voices to those who also recognise this as a bug, and I say that the real clutter in this thread is every time you have responded to telling others to stop talking about it. You are not a moderator here, you have no authority to tell others what to post about. So, maybe take your own advice and stop cluttering the thread. Let people voice their concerns. There is a very valid reason why everyone who agrees that this is an issue should post a comment to add their voice - if only one person said it's an issue, perhaps the Devs would dismiss it and move on. However, if many share their concerns, perhaps that would spur the Devs to take heed and listen, and perhaps turn around and make a decision they might have otherwise not made. I would encourage EVERYONE who thinks the omission of spells like Absorb Elements and Catapult, that came from EEPC / XGtE, should add their comments HERE, so the Devs will know how big of an issue this is for many of us.
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ModeratorBooming Blade qualifies because of the Spells section in chapter 3, not because of the class in chapter 1.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/tcoe/magical-miscellany#SpellsTable
If you imagine this as an errata and fully replace the 2014 class section with the new one, that Spells section is still present and valid. It uses the same format shown in SACOC, FTOD, and SAIS as well.
But in this same scenario, what rule then qualifies Absorb Elements or Catapult?
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I still stand by this. Simply put any spell from from an Expand Rules Book that had the 2014 Artificer should be on the new Artificer Spell list.
That section only exists to call these spells "new", despite the fact that they were originally printed in SCAG. Very similar to how Absorb Elements (among others) was listed as "new" in XGtE, despite the fact they were originally printed in EEPC. The only difference between Absorb Elements and Booming Blade, as far as the 2014 Artificer is concerned, is that XGtE came out before the Artificer, whereas TCoE came out after. If XGtE came out after the Artificer was introduced, those spells (Absorb Elements and others) would have been listed as "new" for the Artificer, the same as Booming Blade was in TCoE. It's literally just an issue of timing.
XGtE and TCoE are both expanded rules books, they should both be treated the same. If Booming Blade is "new" in TCoE, and Absorb Elements is "new" in XGtE (again, neither of those spells were actually "new" in their respective books) then they should be treated the same when determining if they belong on the 2024 Artificer Spell List.
XGtE also has a similarly formatted "New Spells" Section in Chapter 3, but, again, it's only "crime" is that it came out before the 2014 Artificer.
It seems like Absorb Elements (and the XGtE spells) are only being disqualified because they happen to have been printed before the 2014 Artificer was introduced, and because they weren't reprinted as "new" in TCoE, they were just called out as a reference.
Given how Heroes of Faerun implied that some Xanathar's refugee spells are being made into other things(Cold Caster turning Frostbite into a feat-given ability, & the PHB mashing Mold Earth, Control Flames, Shape Water & Gust into one weaker spell that has less creativity, being the obvious examples), & only salvaging so many orphaned spells, I'm worried that Absorb Elements is either going to become an aspect of a feat or be heavily re-written, given that it's not been re-added to the Artificer list.
Same as Catapult & the other orphan spells.
But it'd be nice to disclose this design philosophy is going to be even more of a thing going forward. &, when appropriate, remove said orphaned spells from 2024 lists to make the distinction clear.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
This man speaks truth.
Please stop trying to police this thread. You’re not a moderator, and you don’t have any authority to tell other users what they can or can’t report. It’s honestly quite frustrating to see you repeatedly try to dictate what others are allowed to post here.
This is also a thread with 12+ pages — it’s not reasonable to expect any user to scroll through all of that just to check whether a bug has already been mentioned. For the actual moderators, however, multiple reports can be a useful signal that certain issues are recurring or affecting a lot of people.
Thanks.
For ease of reference, does anyone have the list of 15 spells that are in limbo like this? its easy enough to homebrew until WotC fixes this, but Id rather not spend an hour comparing spell lists if someone else has it available.
Absorb Elements
Catapult
Catnap
Create Bonfire
Elemental Bane
Flame Arrows
Frostbite
Magic Stone
Pyrotechnics
Skill Empowerment
Skywrite
Snare
Thunderclap
Tiny Servant
Transmute Rock
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ModeratorFYI, I’ve moved this conversation here to a new thread so I can better provide updates when available, and better identify the other bugs in the previous thread.
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Awesome. You previously said that we might have a solution after the holiday break. For clarification is that this week or in January 😅 ? Some companies take long breaks lol.
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ModeratorI'm gonna ask tomorrow. 😜
For the record, though, I still think this is already correct per the RAW, so I'm not promising a solution -- just some official clarification on the matter. If that does turn out to be the case, the solution would be to instead make a homebrew copy of the spell and it to their spell list. (Shouldn't take more than a couple minutes to do the whole batch.)
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Understood. Do you know the process to effect Errata and Sage Advice? If this ends up being a RAW vs. RAI then that seems the way to go.
Thunderclap was included in the 2024 PHB, so shouldn't be on this list.