They've known for years though that the rebuild was needed, and have neglected to do anything about it until about 6 months ago, and we still don't know how long its going to take. For all we know it'll never get finished and be abandoned like Sigil.
It's entirely reasonable for people to complain about DDB putting out a broken product. The rebuild should have been done for the 2024 releases at the latest, not still months away (at least) nearly two years later.
And it wasn't until they got a new VP of D&D and merged it into a franchise model, that all these changes started happening. "Shoulda, coulda, woulda" but the reality was that the old way Hasbro treated them wasn't going to provide enough slack to do this. It's happening now, and we can't change the past.
Their concern about a Sigil abandonment situation is valid, albeit coated in HEAVY biases & anti-fandom culture(Like most WotC drama)
I just wish people would be better than Blizzard WoW forum behavior when talking about Agonizing Blast & every other thing. Because the whole discussion pattern is very Blizzard WoW forum-core.
& after the rework, the goalposts will move. They never stop moving. & they never will. From both Hasbro & internet users. Both are part of the howling cold hungry void that cries endlessly for "more", albeit in 2 different flavors of such.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I pay plenty for this subscription and (all) the online products. They want to keep collecting my money? Then my purchasing power dollars will move the goalposts whenever and however I choose.
I pay plenty for this subscription and (all) the online products. They want to keep collecting my money? Then my purchasing power dollars will move the goalposts whenever and however I choose.
Their concern about a Sigil abandonment situation is valid, albeit coated in HEAVY biases & anti-fandom culture(Like most WotC drama)
I just wish people would be better than Blizzard WoW forum behavior when talking about Agonizing Blast & every other thing. Because the whole discussion pattern is very Blizzard WoW forum-core.
& after the rework, the goalposts will move. They never stop moving. & they never will. From both Hasbro & internet users. Both are part of the howling cold hungry void that cries endlessly for "more", albeit in 2 different flavors of such.
Honestly, I feel like Hasbro's executives have decided to be more 'hands-off' after their intervention nearly destroyed the brand. And since Dan Ayoub has full control over the entire franchise, it's been working well.
The dev team is more involved, visible on content creator shows, and generally responsive to people's concerns. Brian Perry and Zac Cohn especially are allowed to highlight the behind the scenes issues that they need to overcome in a way that's understandable.
Sigil was dead from the start and I'm surprised it lasted that long. They had an outside group (from D&D, internal to WOTC) build a 3D simulator that barely even scratched D&D aside from the name. They had more developers than the Maps VTT team, and produced far less usable content for playing D&D. If they'd built it as a Baldur's Gate 3 follow on, which is what the executives thought it was, maybe it would have made sense. But dumping 50 million dollars on a project that didn't even fit what the majority of players needed, while making another version on shoestring that was exactly what players needed except for the lack of development resources, was never going to be a winning strategy.
It was a good business decision, but in the world of limited budgets it was a good decision for the majority of the community. There were a section of people who loved it, but it was niche, where as Maps VTT is precisely the 'everyman's map tool' that dndbeyond is supposed to provide.
I pay plenty for this subscription and (all) the online products. They want to keep collecting my money? Then my purchasing power dollars will move the goalposts whenever and however I choose.
As a playing customer, what you want, is what they're doing... it's just not finished.
If that means you walk away, then you're actively telling them that what they're doing (rebuilding the game engine so it handles Agonizing Blast) is the wrong direction. This isn't an overnight change.
There is one clear parallel to WoW/Blizzard. People here blame Hasbro for WotC's shortcomings just like people blamed Activision for Blizzard's.
As for the updated character builder, I hope it's going to be everything that we want. Due to past disappointments, however, I'm adopting a "believe it when I see it" approach.
Ugh. I think the folks who think software should be updatable intantaneously are the ones who get hired for software middle management positions.
Stop defending incompetence. It should have been done completed for the 2024 product launch.
They'd've probably had to start in 2022, then. Maybe even earlier, because you really don't want to be rolling out the big site update at the same time as the big mechanics update; that's a recipe for everything catching on fire.
WotC only acquired DDB in 2022. Even if they had clear plans, management support, and financial resources, it probably couldn't have happened, and doing it halfway is probably worse than not doing it.
WotC only acquired DDB in 2022. Even if they had clear plans, management support, and financial resources, it probably couldn't have happened, and doing it halfway is probably worse than not doing it.
This is key.
They acquired it in 2022, and then spent 2 years retrofitting the ability to have 90% of 2024's evolving rules to be applied, and then they could start looking at the existing code and fixing obvious bugs. Rewriting the whole thing now is actually a pretty aggressive update.
Agonizing Blast & other, similar Eldritch Invocations working with non-Eldritch Blast are EXPLICITLY named in the roadmap as top priorities in the site rework.
At this point, this thread should be redirected to the roadmap's page, in particular the relevant section to the above.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Stop defending incompetence. It should have been done completed for the 2024 product launch.
If the D&D Beyond character creator was a core part of the product, that might have some validity, but it's not. D&D Beyond itself is a secondary product, and it's not clear just how important tools such as the character creator are to D&D Beyond (its primary purpose appears to be digital storefront for E-books).
This is not to say there wasn't incompetence, but it's worth pointing in the correct direction:
The reason D&D Beyond's tools haven't been updated is because they're legacy code, probably built on rotten old software that they no longer have the in-house expertise to fix.
The reason D&D Beyond's tools haven't already been replaced is because they spent their development budget trying to build Project Sigil.
Stop defending incompetence. It should have been done completed for the 2024 product launch.
If the D&D Beyond character creator was a core part of the product, that might have some validity, but it's not. D&D Beyond itself is a secondary product, and it's not clear just how important tools such as the character creator are to D&D Beyond (its primary purpose appears to be digital storefront for E-books).
This is not to say there wasn't incompetence, but it's worth pointing in the correct direction:
The reason D&D Beyond's tools haven't been updated is because they're legacy code, probably built on rotten old software that they no longer have the in-house expertise to fix.
The reason D&D Beyond's tools haven't already been replaced is because they spent their development budget trying to build Project Sigil.
I am a 74 year old Fortran and COBOL programmer / analyst. I wrote a program using Fortran back in 1977 and this program, with minor modifications along the way, remained in service for 20 years. I know what "legacy code" is, because I was the hacker who wrote it. I retired from the university back in 2007, as the institution was installing a new comprehensive information system across the entire campus. It is the lot of software professionals to design, and re-design, and re-re-design information systems in accordance with the needs and occasional whims of administrators and end-users. It is frustrating, it is aggravating, it can lead to cardiac problems BUT in the end, when the end-users and the administrators are finally satisfied, that is when I and other hackers lift our tired legs and feet, plop them on our work tables and simply declare "piece of cake".
I am a 74 year old Fortran and COBOL programmer / analyst. I wrote a program using Fortran back in 1977
None of which is relevant to the problem at hand, which is that maintaining legacy code costs money and time, particularly if the people who wrote the software no longer work for you, and Wizards was simply not investing in the D&D Beyond tools because they assumed they had a replacement on the way. The development staff for D&D Beyond appears to be pretty small, which means you prioritize, and fixing a rarely encountered problem in an area of code that is apparently difficult to work with (based on the fact that they have never allowed homebrew invocations) isn't going to get all that high a priority.
I am a 74 year old Fortran and COBOL programmer / analyst. I wrote a program using Fortran back in 1977
None of which is relevant to the problem at hand, which is that maintaining legacy code costs money and time, particularly if the people who wrote the software no longer work for you,
More importantly, "legacy code" covers a wide variety of code quality. Some is great, well-documented, chugs along happily for years, and is easy to modify when needed. Others are thrown together quickly, with a lot of hard-coded assumptions, and modifying it leads to a rickety structure of work-arounds on work-arounds, until trying to make changes is like playing drunk jenga during an earthquake.
It is my impression that the original DDB code was much more the latter. One can see it in the limitations.
I could be wrong here, but i dont think the dndbeyond website is written in fortran, stored on punch cards, and run on a mainframe with less than a megabyte of memory.
Correct. Based upon what little I have gleaned over the past year or so, the DnD Beyond website and its supporting software is not written in Fortran; it is probably written in Java or object oriented C (known as C++) or in Microsoft's proprietary object oriented C (known as C sharp or C#), with a relational data base underneath it. I did not intend to set off a jargon heavy cyber geek debate over a discrepancy between what the 2024 PHB states and what the character builder delivers. The object oriented paradigm became the new standard just as I was nearing optimal retirement age and the software tools available to me on the university's Hewlett Packard 3000 were not compatible with the new standard. I wish that this thread was not necessary, I wish that it did not exist, I wish that the underlying problem did not exist BUT it does exist and at the present time, we are stuck with it.
I am a 74 year old Fortran and COBOL programmer / analyst. I wrote a program using Fortran back in 1977
None of which is relevant to the problem at hand, which is that maintaining legacy code costs money and time, particularly if the people who wrote the software no longer work for you,
More importantly, "legacy code" covers a wide variety of code quality. Some is great, well-documented, chugs along happily for years, and is easy to modify when needed. Others are thrown together quickly, with a lot of hard-coded assumptions, and modifying it leads to a rickety structure of work-arounds on work-arounds, until trying to make changes is like playing drunk jenga during an earthquake.
It is my impression that the original DDB code was much more the latter. One can see it in the limitations.
Yeah, the core problem, I think, is that its original purpose was as a tool for creating a character under the rules of 5e D&D that existed at the time the tool was created in 2017 (or whenever it was) and little or no thought was given to implementing any capacity for new capabilities and new concepts in the rules, even though a lot of those came along pretty quickly. That lack of foresight meant that every time a new concept was added to the rules — things like supernatural gifts, sidekicks, optional class features, bastions — they had to choose between implementing a half-assed janky workaround or just not doing it at all.
It's like we've got a road that keeps developing new potholes, and each one is either ignored or just fixed with a quick patch, so you end up with a mess of patches on patches on patches. The right thing to do is tear up the whole street and repave it from scratch, but that takes more time and money than a quick patch (and a lot more time and money than just ignoring the problem) and has to be approved by the people who control the money, who may still share that original lack of foresight.
On the subject of supernatural gifts, such as a deity granting a +1 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus to all ability saves, the way to do it is with the Homebrew option. You define the gift as a Wondrous Item that does not require Attunement and then you slowly Add a +1 bonus to Armor Class, a +1 bonus to Charisma saving throws, a +1 bonus to Constitution saving throws, and so on, then you enable the character to have Homebrew items and you equip the character with the item. Yes, it is laborious but it works and it is much easier than doing arithmetic in hexadecimal (base 16).
"The object oriented paradigm became the new standard just as I was nearing optimal retirement age and the software tools available to me on the university's Hewlett Packard 3000 were not compatible with the new standard."
I think we are nearly half a century past OO being a "new paradigm".
"I wish that this thread was not necessary"
Is it necessary?
It was necessary back when it was posted two years ago. It's not really serving much purpose now.
Hence my proposal for it & a lot of similar threads to be redirected to the page w/the roadmap.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
"The object oriented paradigm became the new standard just as I was nearing optimal retirement age and the software tools available to me on the university's Hewlett Packard 3000 were not compatible with the new standard."
I think we are nearly half a century past OO being a "new paradigm".
"I wish that this thread was not necessary"
Is it necessary?
Well .......... back in 2001, I had bought a couple of books that supposedly explained "Object Orientation" but, and this is a huge BUT, none of my existing information systems had been crafted using object orientation so the "new" knowledge was rather useless to me. SURS (State of Illinois University Retirement Service) rules said that if you were at least 55 years of age, with at least 30 years of accrued service, you were eligible to retire with a full pension. In 2007, I satisfied both of those regulations and I retired.
Addendum: I have heard all of the jargon specific buzz words and I try not to repeat them when dealing with non cyber geeky folks because such speech confuses the heck out of them.
And will continue to be until they finish the character builder overhaul later this year. It's on the Roadmap. The current system can't handle the change.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Their concern about a Sigil abandonment situation is valid, albeit coated in HEAVY biases & anti-fandom culture(Like most WotC drama)
I just wish people would be better than Blizzard WoW forum behavior when talking about Agonizing Blast & every other thing. Because the whole discussion pattern is very Blizzard WoW forum-core.
& after the rework, the goalposts will move. They never stop moving. & they never will. From both Hasbro & internet users. Both are part of the howling cold hungry void that cries endlessly for "more", albeit in 2 different flavors of such.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
I pay plenty for this subscription and (all) the online products. They want to keep collecting my money? Then my purchasing power dollars will move the goalposts whenever and however I choose.
I pay plenty for this subscription and (all) the online products. They want to keep collecting my money? Then my purchasing power dollars will move the goalposts whenever and however I choose.
Honestly, I feel like Hasbro's executives have decided to be more 'hands-off' after their intervention nearly destroyed the brand. And since Dan Ayoub has full control over the entire franchise, it's been working well.
The dev team is more involved, visible on content creator shows, and generally responsive to people's concerns. Brian Perry and Zac Cohn especially are allowed to highlight the behind the scenes issues that they need to overcome in a way that's understandable.
Sigil was dead from the start and I'm surprised it lasted that long. They had an outside group (from D&D, internal to WOTC) build a 3D simulator that barely even scratched D&D aside from the name. They had more developers than the Maps VTT team, and produced far less usable content for playing D&D. If they'd built it as a Baldur's Gate 3 follow on, which is what the executives thought it was, maybe it would have made sense. But dumping 50 million dollars on a project that didn't even fit what the majority of players needed, while making another version on shoestring that was exactly what players needed except for the lack of development resources, was never going to be a winning strategy.
It was a good business decision, but in the world of limited budgets it was a good decision for the majority of the community. There were a section of people who loved it, but it was niche, where as Maps VTT is precisely the 'everyman's map tool' that dndbeyond is supposed to provide.
As a playing customer, what you want, is what they're doing... it's just not finished.
If that means you walk away, then you're actively telling them that what they're doing (rebuilding the game engine so it handles Agonizing Blast) is the wrong direction. This isn't an overnight change.
There is one clear parallel to WoW/Blizzard. People here blame Hasbro for WotC's shortcomings just like people blamed Activision for Blizzard's.
As for the updated character builder, I hope it's going to be everything that we want. Due to past disappointments, however, I'm adopting a "believe it when I see it" approach.
Stop defending incompetence. It should have been done completed for the 2024 product launch.
They'd've probably had to start in 2022, then. Maybe even earlier, because you really don't want to be rolling out the big site update at the same time as the big mechanics update; that's a recipe for everything catching on fire.
WotC only acquired DDB in 2022. Even if they had clear plans, management support, and financial resources, it probably couldn't have happened, and doing it halfway is probably worse than not doing it.
This is key.
They acquired it in 2022, and then spent 2 years retrofitting the ability to have 90% of 2024's evolving rules to be applied, and then they could start looking at the existing code and fixing obvious bugs. Rewriting the whole thing now is actually a pretty aggressive update.
Agonizing Blast & other, similar Eldritch Invocations working with non-Eldritch Blast are EXPLICITLY named in the roadmap as top priorities in the site rework.
At this point, this thread should be redirected to the roadmap's page, in particular the relevant section to the above.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
If the D&D Beyond character creator was a core part of the product, that might have some validity, but it's not. D&D Beyond itself is a secondary product, and it's not clear just how important tools such as the character creator are to D&D Beyond (its primary purpose appears to be digital storefront for E-books).
This is not to say there wasn't incompetence, but it's worth pointing in the correct direction:
I am a 74 year old Fortran and COBOL programmer / analyst. I wrote a program using Fortran back in 1977 and this program, with minor modifications along the way, remained in service for 20 years. I know what "legacy code" is, because I was the hacker who wrote it. I retired from the university back in 2007, as the institution was installing a new comprehensive information system across the entire campus. It is the lot of software professionals to design, and re-design, and re-re-design information systems in accordance with the needs and occasional whims of administrators and end-users. It is frustrating, it is aggravating, it can lead to cardiac problems BUT in the end, when the end-users and the administrators are finally satisfied, that is when I and other hackers lift our tired legs and feet, plop them on our work tables and simply declare "piece of cake".
None of which is relevant to the problem at hand, which is that maintaining legacy code costs money and time, particularly if the people who wrote the software no longer work for you, and Wizards was simply not investing in the D&D Beyond tools because they assumed they had a replacement on the way. The development staff for D&D Beyond appears to be pretty small, which means you prioritize, and fixing a rarely encountered problem in an area of code that is apparently difficult to work with (based on the fact that they have never allowed homebrew invocations) isn't going to get all that high a priority.
More importantly, "legacy code" covers a wide variety of code quality. Some is great, well-documented, chugs along happily for years, and is easy to modify when needed. Others are thrown together quickly, with a lot of hard-coded assumptions, and modifying it leads to a rickety structure of work-arounds on work-arounds, until trying to make changes is like playing drunk jenga during an earthquake.
It is my impression that the original DDB code was much more the latter. One can see it in the limitations.
Correct. Based upon what little I have gleaned over the past year or so, the DnD Beyond website and its supporting software is not written in Fortran; it is probably written in Java or object oriented C (known as C++) or in Microsoft's proprietary object oriented C (known as C sharp or C#), with a relational data base underneath it. I did not intend to set off a jargon heavy cyber geek debate over a discrepancy between what the 2024 PHB states and what the character builder delivers. The object oriented paradigm became the new standard just as I was nearing optimal retirement age and the software tools available to me on the university's Hewlett Packard 3000 were not compatible with the new standard. I wish that this thread was not necessary, I wish that it did not exist, I wish that the underlying problem did not exist BUT it does exist and at the present time, we are stuck with it.
On the subject of supernatural gifts, such as a deity granting a +1 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus to all ability saves, the way to do it is with the Homebrew option. You define the gift as a Wondrous Item that does not require Attunement and then you slowly Add a +1 bonus to Armor Class, a +1 bonus to Charisma saving throws, a +1 bonus to Constitution saving throws, and so on, then you enable the character to have Homebrew items and you equip the character with the item. Yes, it is laborious but it works and it is much easier than doing arithmetic in hexadecimal (base 16).
Hence my proposal for it & a lot of similar threads to be redirected to the page w/the roadmap.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Well .......... back in 2001, I had bought a couple of books that supposedly explained "Object Orientation" but, and this is a huge BUT, none of my existing information systems had been crafted using object orientation so the "new" knowledge was rather useless to me. SURS (State of Illinois University Retirement Service) rules said that if you were at least 55 years of age, with at least 30 years of accrued service, you were eligible to retire with a full pension. In 2007, I satisfied both of those regulations and I retired.
Addendum: I have heard all of the jargon specific buzz words and I try not to repeat them when dealing with non cyber geeky folks because such speech confuses the heck out of them.
2026 and it's still an issue.
And will continue to be until they finish the character builder overhaul later this year. It's on the Roadmap. The current system can't handle the change.