I am a 74 year old Fortran and COBOL programmer / analyst. I wrote a program using Fortran back in 1977
None of which is relevant to the problem at hand, which is that maintaining legacy code costs money and time, particularly if the people who wrote the software no longer work for you,
More importantly, "legacy code" covers a wide variety of code quality. Some is great, well-documented, chugs along happily for years, and is easy to modify when needed. Others are thrown together quickly, with a lot of hard-coded assumptions, and modifying it leads to a rickety structure of work-arounds on work-arounds, until trying to make changes is like playing drunk jenga during an earthquake.
It is my impression that the original DDB code was much more the latter. One can see it in the limitations.
Yeah, the core problem, I think, is that its original purpose was as a tool for creating a character under the rules of 5e D&D that existed at the time the tool was created in 2017 (or whenever it was) and little or no thought was given to implementing any capacity for new capabilities and new concepts in the rules, even though a lot of those came along pretty quickly. That lack of foresight meant that every time a new concept was added to the rules — things like supernatural gifts, sidekicks, optional class features, bastions — they had to choose between implementing a half-assed janky workaround or just not doing it at all.
It's like we've got a road that keeps developing new potholes, and each one is either ignored or just fixed with a quick patch, so you end up with a mess of patches on patches on patches. The right thing to do is tear up the whole street and repave it from scratch, but that takes more time and money than a quick patch (and a lot more time and money than just ignoring the problem) and has to be approved by the people who control the money, who may still share that original lack of foresight.
I could be wrong here, but i dont think the dndbeyond website is written in fortran, stored on punch cards, and run on a mainframe with less than a megabyte of memory.
Correct. Based upon what little I have gleaned over the past year or so, the DnD Beyond website and its supporting software is not written in Fortran; it is probably written in Java or object oriented C (known as C++) or in Microsoft's proprietary object oriented C (known as C sharp or C#), with a relational data base underneath it. I did not intend to set off a jargon heavy cyber geek debate over a discrepancy between what the 2024 PHB states and what the character builder delivers. The object oriented paradigm became the new standard just as I was nearing optimal retirement age and the software tools available to me on the university's Hewlett Packard 3000 were not compatible with the new standard. I wish that this thread was not necessary, I wish that it did not exist, I wish that the underlying problem did not exist BUT it does exist and at the present time, we are stuck with it.
I am a 74 year old Fortran and COBOL programmer / analyst. I wrote a program using Fortran back in 1977
None of which is relevant to the problem at hand, which is that maintaining legacy code costs money and time, particularly if the people who wrote the software no longer work for you,
More importantly, "legacy code" covers a wide variety of code quality. Some is great, well-documented, chugs along happily for years, and is easy to modify when needed. Others are thrown together quickly, with a lot of hard-coded assumptions, and modifying it leads to a rickety structure of work-arounds on work-arounds, until trying to make changes is like playing drunk jenga during an earthquake.
It is my impression that the original DDB code was much more the latter. One can see it in the limitations.
Yeah, the core problem, I think, is that its original purpose was as a tool for creating a character under the rules of 5e D&D that existed at the time the tool was created in 2017 (or whenever it was) and little or no thought was given to implementing any capacity for new capabilities and new concepts in the rules, even though a lot of those came along pretty quickly. That lack of foresight meant that every time a new concept was added to the rules — things like supernatural gifts, sidekicks, optional class features, bastions — they had to choose between implementing a half-assed janky workaround or just not doing it at all.
It's like we've got a road that keeps developing new potholes, and each one is either ignored or just fixed with a quick patch, so you end up with a mess of patches on patches on patches. The right thing to do is tear up the whole street and repave it from scratch, but that takes more time and money than a quick patch (and a lot more time and money than just ignoring the problem) and has to be approved by the people who control the money, who may still share that original lack of foresight.
On the subject of supernatural gifts, such as a deity granting a +1 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus to all ability saves, the way to do it is with the Homebrew option. You define the gift as a Wondrous Item that does not require Attunement and then you slowly Add a +1 bonus to Armor Class, a +1 bonus to Charisma saving throws, a +1 bonus to Constitution saving throws, and so on, then you enable the character to have Homebrew items and you equip the character with the item. Yes, it is laborious but it works and it is much easier than doing arithmetic in hexadecimal (base 16).
Oh, I'm well aware of the workarounds that exist for some of these issues. That doesn't change the point, which is that most of these issues only exist at all because of a lack of foresight on the part of the people who originally designed this stuff a decade ago (and who, I'd imagine, probably no longer work there).
"The object oriented paradigm became the new standard just as I was nearing optimal retirement age and the software tools available to me on the university's Hewlett Packard 3000 were not compatible with the new standard."
I think we are nearly half a century past OO being a "new paradigm".
"I wish that this thread was not necessary"
Is it necessary?
It was necessary back when it was posted two years ago. It's not really serving much purpose now.
"The object oriented paradigm became the new standard just as I was nearing optimal retirement age and the software tools available to me on the university's Hewlett Packard 3000 were not compatible with the new standard."
I think we are nearly half a century past OO being a "new paradigm".
"I wish that this thread was not necessary"
Is it necessary?
It was necessary back when it was posted two years ago. It's not really serving much purpose now.
Hence my proposal for it & a lot of similar threads to be redirected to the page w/the roadmap.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
"The object oriented paradigm became the new standard just as I was nearing optimal retirement age and the software tools available to me on the university's Hewlett Packard 3000 were not compatible with the new standard."
I think we are nearly half a century past OO being a "new paradigm".
"I wish that this thread was not necessary"
Is it necessary?
Well .......... back in 2001, I had bought a couple of books that supposedly explained "Object Orientation" but, and this is a huge BUT, none of my existing information systems had been crafted using object orientation so the "new" knowledge was rather useless to me. SURS (State of Illinois University Retirement Service) rules said that if you were at least 55 years of age, with at least 30 years of accrued service, you were eligible to retire with a full pension. In 2007, I satisfied both of those regulations and I retired.
Addendum: I have heard all of the jargon specific buzz words and I try not to repeat them when dealing with non cyber geeky folks because such speech confuses the heck out of them.
And will continue to be until they finish the character builder overhaul later this year. It's on the Roadmap. The current system can't handle the change.
This is still in issue... Please fix I'm begging you
This has been addressed by the DDB team. The fix will be in the v2.0 DDB engine. Along with many other fixes. Apparently the old/current system just cannot handle some of the new 5.5e functions.
This is still in issue... Please fix I'm begging youl
This has been addressed by the DDB team. The fix will be in the v2.0 DDB engine. Along with many other fixes. Apparently the old/current system just cannot handle some of the new 5.5e functions.
And.......this is primarily because the 2014 rules are incompatible with the 2024 rules, despite all the official protestations to the contrary.
And.......this is primarily because the 2014 rules are incompatible with the 2024 rules, despite all the official protestations to the contrary.
No, this is primarily because D&D Beyond is badly coded. If someone had tried to come up with an eldritch invocation in 2014 that added your ability bonus to cantrips other than eldritch blast, exactly the same problem would have appeared.
This is still in issue... Please fix I'm begging youl
This has been addressed by the DDB team. The fix will be in the v2.0 DDB engine. Along with many other fixes. Apparently the old/current system just cannot handle some of the new 5.5e functions.
And.......this is primarily because the 2014 rules are incompatible with the 2024 rules, despite all the official protestations to the contrary.
This has nothing to do with 2014-2024 compatibility
And.......this is primarily because the 2014 rules are incompatible with the 2024 rules, despite all the official protestations to the contrary.
No, this is primarily because D&D Beyond is badly coded. If someone had tried to come up with an eldritch invocation in 2014 that added your ability bonus to cantrips other than eldritch blast, exactly the same problem would have appeared.
Ah, yes, the most common lament of every programmer (or, grey hat hacker, if you prefer) who has ever been hired to update and/or maintain a previous employee's source code. (Naturally, I, the new hire, will always write perfect source code.)
And.......this is primarily because the 2014 rules are incompatible with the 2024 rules, despite all the official protestations to the contrary.
No, this is primarily because D&D Beyond is badly coded. If someone had tried to come up with an eldritch invocation in 2014 that added your ability bonus to cantrips other than eldritch blast, exactly the same problem would have appeared.
Ah, yes, the most common lament of every programmer (or, grey hat hacker, if you prefer) who has ever been hired to update and/or maintain a previous employee's source code. (Naturally, I, the new hire, will always write perfect source code.)
It isn't about perfect. DDB's back end code was written to support only what existed at the time of its creation and each new modifier was patched in separately. Now there's so many independent operators the entire system is unstable for changes.
The new system is said to be designed to be more flexible in the types of modifiers, supported dynamic abilities, etc.
And.......this is primarily because the 2014 rules are incompatible with the 2024 rules, despite all the official protestations to the contrary.
No, this is primarily because D&D Beyond is badly coded. If someone had tried to come up with an eldritch invocation in 2014 that added your ability bonus to cantrips other than eldritch blast, exactly the same problem would have appeared.
Ah, yes, the most common lament of every programmer (or, grey hat hacker, if you prefer) who has ever been hired to update and/or maintain a previous employee's source code. (Naturally, I, the new hire, will always write perfect source code.)
It isn't about perfect. DDB's back end code was written to support only what existed at the time of its creation and each new modifier was patched in separately. Now there's so many independent operators the entire system is unstable for changes.
The new system is said to be designed to be more flexible in the types of modifiers, supported dynamic abilities, etc.
So therefore the current version of the Character Builder perfectly fits the classic hacker curse word: kludge (a bunch of mismatched items that have been tied together with baling wire to form a distressing whole). The current U.S. air traffic control system is, sadly, another kludge.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
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Yeah, the core problem, I think, is that its original purpose was as a tool for creating a character under the rules of 5e D&D that existed at the time the tool was created in 2017 (or whenever it was) and little or no thought was given to implementing any capacity for new capabilities and new concepts in the rules, even though a lot of those came along pretty quickly. That lack of foresight meant that every time a new concept was added to the rules — things like supernatural gifts, sidekicks, optional class features, bastions — they had to choose between implementing a half-assed janky workaround or just not doing it at all.
It's like we've got a road that keeps developing new potholes, and each one is either ignored or just fixed with a quick patch, so you end up with a mess of patches on patches on patches. The right thing to do is tear up the whole street and repave it from scratch, but that takes more time and money than a quick patch (and a lot more time and money than just ignoring the problem) and has to be approved by the people who control the money, who may still share that original lack of foresight.
pronouns: he/she/they
Correct. Based upon what little I have gleaned over the past year or so, the DnD Beyond website and its supporting software is not written in Fortran; it is probably written in Java or object oriented C (known as C++) or in Microsoft's proprietary object oriented C (known as C sharp or C#), with a relational data base underneath it. I did not intend to set off a jargon heavy cyber geek debate over a discrepancy between what the 2024 PHB states and what the character builder delivers. The object oriented paradigm became the new standard just as I was nearing optimal retirement age and the software tools available to me on the university's Hewlett Packard 3000 were not compatible with the new standard. I wish that this thread was not necessary, I wish that it did not exist, I wish that the underlying problem did not exist BUT it does exist and at the present time, we are stuck with it.
On the subject of supernatural gifts, such as a deity granting a +1 bonus to Armor Class and a +1 bonus to all ability saves, the way to do it is with the Homebrew option. You define the gift as a Wondrous Item that does not require Attunement and then you slowly Add a +1 bonus to Armor Class, a +1 bonus to Charisma saving throws, a +1 bonus to Constitution saving throws, and so on, then you enable the character to have Homebrew items and you equip the character with the item. Yes, it is laborious but it works and it is much easier than doing arithmetic in hexadecimal (base 16).
Oh, I'm well aware of the workarounds that exist for some of these issues. That doesn't change the point, which is that most of these issues only exist at all because of a lack of foresight on the part of the people who originally designed this stuff a decade ago (and who, I'd imagine, probably no longer work there).
pronouns: he/she/they
It was necessary back when it was posted two years ago. It's not really serving much purpose now.
pronouns: he/she/they
Hence my proposal for it & a lot of similar threads to be redirected to the page w/the roadmap.
DM, player & homebrewer(Current homebrew project is an unofficial conversion of SBURB/SGRUB from Homestuck into DND 5e)
Once made Maxwell's Silver Hammer come down upon Strahd's head to make sure he was dead.
Always study & sharpen philosophical razors. They save a lot of trouble.
Well .......... back in 2001, I had bought a couple of books that supposedly explained "Object Orientation" but, and this is a huge BUT, none of my existing information systems had been crafted using object orientation so the "new" knowledge was rather useless to me. SURS (State of Illinois University Retirement Service) rules said that if you were at least 55 years of age, with at least 30 years of accrued service, you were eligible to retire with a full pension. In 2007, I satisfied both of those regulations and I retired.
Addendum: I have heard all of the jargon specific buzz words and I try not to repeat them when dealing with non cyber geeky folks because such speech confuses the heck out of them.
2026 and it's still an issue.
And will continue to be until they finish the character builder overhaul later this year. It's on the Roadmap. The current system can't handle the change.
That’s not a fix. That’s a workaround. Most of us have been doing exactly this since the launch of 5.5e
This is still in issue... Please fix I'm begging you
This has been addressed by the DDB team. The fix will be in the v2.0 DDB engine. Along with many other fixes. Apparently the old/current system just cannot handle some of the new 5.5e functions.
And.......this is primarily because the 2014 rules are incompatible with the 2024 rules, despite all the official protestations to the contrary.
No, this is primarily because D&D Beyond is badly coded. If someone had tried to come up with an eldritch invocation in 2014 that added your ability bonus to cantrips other than eldritch blast, exactly the same problem would have appeared.
This has nothing to do with 2014-2024 compatibility
Find my D&D Beyond articles here
Ah, yes, the most common lament of every programmer (or, grey hat hacker, if you prefer) who has ever been hired to update and/or maintain a previous employee's source code. (Naturally, I, the new hire, will always write perfect source code.)
It isn't about perfect. DDB's back end code was written to support only what existed at the time of its creation and each new modifier was patched in separately. Now there's so many independent operators the entire system is unstable for changes.
The new system is said to be designed to be more flexible in the types of modifiers, supported dynamic abilities, etc.
So therefore the current version of the Character Builder perfectly fits the classic hacker curse word: kludge (a bunch of mismatched items that have been tied together with baling wire to form a distressing whole). The current U.S. air traffic control system is, sadly, another kludge.