Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
Yurei, ... Please for the love of anything what the hell do you want?
I want psychic abilities to be entirely divorced from spellcasting.
Ok, time for another string of replies and thoughts.
Thank you for replying. While You say what you want, by bashing on what you don't want, you really don't make a good case for what would make you happy.
But I can see:
You dislike the 2 out of the 4 types of casters in 5e D&D (Wizard, Sorcerer) you haven't mentioned Warlock or Monk casting as pro or con, in fact you've kind of ignored that Monk in 5e is basically the 2nd Ed Psionicist reflavored, and you have made it clear you dislike spell slots so the Mystic Reflavored into the Artificer seems out as well.
Meaning you dislike all the official D&D 5e Psionic classes, and subclasses.
Still no description beyond no spell slots, can do melee and or ranged combat big boom up to five times a day. This doesn't give a clear path btw, just sets a desire off in the distance while saying what you don't want in it.
Paraphrase "The OGL of D&D is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." time to look into 5e systems, and OGL books that have psionic systems not tied to normal D&D mechanics. There is even a Darksun 5e Community, with a bunch of Homebrew based on AD&D and 3.5 psionics. Also Pathfinder is about to release a 5e version of their setting. (Or at least that's the big rumor)
Also while I enjoy the authors of Dragonlace (their non-D&D fantasy books) I am not really a big fan of the setting, it's a grim dark D&D setting that focuses of Big Battles and Grim Dark fantasy battles. Not my flavor, but I can see why some love it.
Me it's Dark Sun, which is ironic, because nothing is more Grim Dark than Darksun, except maybe Warhammer fantasy... and only by a pinch. Darksun is the main Psionic Setting in D&D, as Magic use in the setting counts as a war crime according to the latest Geneva convention.
Which means the one setting that would have forced WotC to finally release a Psionic Class, is on indefinite hold because Hasbro doesn't want to publish a Mature setting that deals with real problematic issues. Note all the Problematic issues with Dark Sun are the things being done by the Villains who control the world. It is the Players Job to fight that evil, free the people, destroy the Sorcerer Kings and try and restore some balance in the lives of the population.
Please stop trying to force people to play other systems...
This is why joining an active 5e Group with open use of Homebrew classes is such a powerful thing. Because it's not hard to use the tools here in DnDB to homebrew up what you want. ie Recreate some semblance of a AD&D or 3.5 psion class. I personally would use Warlock and build it as a subclass, although Monk and Artificer would work as well. Monk already is based on the AD&D PSP system, and Artificer is very much the cleaned up final version of the Mystic. I know you hate spell slots, but that is the primary tracking tool D&D uses in 5e for any ability that has spell like properties, look at Mind Flayers. Mind Flayers...
The reality is, D&D is not a generic game system, it's a system designed for a rather particular game style. Sure, you can't play a mind flayer in D&D... but that's no different from all the other monsters you can't play; if I were to make a list of "monsters players would like to play but can't without completely breaking the game", my list would probably start with the top hits of dragons, vampires, and were-creatures, migrate through some fiends, fey, and celestials, before finally reaching mind flayers. There's game systems that are designed to do that kind of thing, that work to varying degrees, but it's not realistic to expect D&D to become one of them (they made a stab at it with savage species in 3.5e; it worked poorly and got way less support than psi). If you want psi characters in D&D, there are two realistic options
Accept that you're a spellcaster variant.
Use an alternative system that is objectively inferior to spell slots, because they're not going to build a class that might outperform their core classes.
I do sometimes hate how the forum post editor is. At least it made what I'm addressing bold.
D&D has always been a generic table top role playing game system, with each version becoming more universal with each iteration. 5e is one of the most generic easy to use easy to modify game systems. It's why there are so many people making OGL content. The irony being GRUPs a system which was intended to be universal failed hard at doing just that, and other game systems are too focused on one type of gameplay to ever truly be considered universal.
Also while spell mechanics is different than spell casting, psionics is a bit more complicated than just a spellcaster variant, unless you consider a way of the open hand Monk to be a Spell Caster.
Yureil wants a psion, in D&D, well she* can do that, however WotC has chosen to not release a 5e update to the setting that requires them to make the class she wants, which IMO is a mistake, but it's their choice so it is what it is.
A psionist, mystic, psion, battlemind, and monk, are a few known D&D psionic classes from official lore and gameplay mechanics. And yes Monks are psionic in the lore. they can fulfill a caster role, and Yuriel wants a non-slot magic caster. I would use Pact Magic as the alternative, and then build a subclass that becomes one of the known psionic classes (except monk because everyone ignore monk)
Yes she can play it, but she'll have to make it herself, or find it in partnered content or on the homebrew subclass area. Trust me when I say I've seen a few psionic homebrews here on DnDB that are balanced, and I would allow in my game as DM.
(*That is correct? I saw some comment before but I didn't see your response)
I feel like I've explained what I want a thousand times and people keep demanding I do it again. But fine. Here we go.
A "psi" spellcaster gets to use their "psychic abilities" three or four times a day tops, because spell slots ******* suck. The upshot is that mages are supposed to have a huge diversity of options for those three or four daily casts, so they always have exactly what they need.
I would prefer for a psychokinetic character to have at-will access to their abilities, in exchange for not having the ability to cast Counterspell or Conjure Elemental or Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud or Animate Dead or Polymorph or Blight or Steel Wind Strike or Aganazzar's Scorcher or Wall of Stone or Globe of Invulnerability or Manual Breathing or Dominate Karen or Bestow Taxes or all the three million and fourteen things every single spellcaster in D&D is required to have ready to go at an instant's notice or wind up on CritCrab's channel being excoriated by the entire Internet.
This does not always mean "permanent Telekinesis from level 1". It does mean doing better than goddamn Mage Hand before ninth level.
Honestly, that would be your personal bias against spell slots, they work and are a useful mechanic. But you are describing Pact Magic... While it may resemble spell slots, it's very different.
Also I would just build what you want out of a Monk, I'd grab the 2nd ed Psionics Book, the 3rd ed Darksun books, and the 4th ed book with Battle mind, and build my homebrew out of Monk. Ki points are just PSPs done better. I would use the described 5e spell for their abilities list, and I would give them a spend Ki to gain a feat until (x short amount of time) ability.
As Ki is a limited daily resource. It works perfectly for your needs as a casting resource. Also because psions have more hit points than a caster, and can do melee or sit back and shoot mind bullets, Monk plays well with this. Additionally I've said this a bunch, and if needed I can show it in the lore. Monk is officially a psionic class, and always has been. Hopefully the 2024 edition (5.5) will improve monks to not feel weak in the mid levels.
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Note I stand in the middle of this issue, always have. As I said Dark Sun is one of my favorite settings, in spite of it's issues. Nothing more heroic than overthrowing dictators and police states.
I feel like I've explained what I want a thousand times and people keep demanding I do it again. But fine. Here we go.
A "psi" spellcaster gets to use their "psychic abilities" three or four times a day tops, because spell slots ******* suck. The upshot is that mages are supposed to have a huge diversity of options for those three or four daily casts, so they always have exactly what they need.
I would prefer for a psychokinetic character to have at-will access to their abilities, in exchange for not having the ability to cast Counterspell or Conjure Elemental or Hypnotic Pattern or Stinking Cloud or Animate Dead or Polymorph or Blight or Steel Wind Strike or Aganazzar's Scorcher or Wall of Stone or Globe of Invulnerability or Manual Breathing or Dominate Karen or Bestow Taxes or all the three million and fourteen things every single spellcaster in D&D is required to have ready to go at an instant's notice or wind up on CritCrab's channel being excoriated by the entire Internet.
This does not always mean "permanent Telekinesis from level 1". It does mean doing better than goddamn Mage Hand before ninth level.
"in exchange for not having the ability to cast .........." So does this mean you want a class that can never duel class into any casting class? What about other classes taking a dip into the psion class. What about using magic items?
Are you born with psionic ability and then learn to use them better or can anyone just learn to tap their own internal psion powers? Everyone has them but some don't use them. Can you develop(learn) new psionic abilities as you level up? Can you max out ALL of those abilities? How many different base abilities are there? Some places say there are only about 6 base abilities but they cover almost everything possible and some claim their are 36 different abilities each very specific.
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
This is not how psykinetic characters work.
Unseen Servant is 30 pounds, Levitate is 500 lbs, Thunderwave doesn't even have a weight limit... I wouldn't mind buffing Catapult but that's plenty. And you can pick up Floating Disk too.
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
This is not how psykinetic characters work.
Eh, it actually kind of is how they work in fiction, there are very few intermediate power telekinetic characters, but sure, it's not ideal for games. That doesn't actually require any new mechanics, it's just a few new spells, or a class/subclass feature that upgrades mage hand (the arcane trickster already does that).
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
This is not how psykinetic characters work.
Eh, it actually kind of is how they work in fiction, there are very few intermediate power telekinetic characters, but sure, it's not ideal for games. That doesn't actually require any new mechanics, it's just a few new spells, or a class/subclass feature that upgrades mage hand (the arcane trickster already does that).
I already provided a list of spells which disproves this claim of no 1st through 3rd spells anyway.
you know what... I am half tempted to make Yureil's class in DnDB using Monk as a base. I own the 2nd ed Psionics handbook, all the Darksun books, and have been DMing longer than some here have been alive. I have the skill set needed. Hells in 2012 I even wrote an OGL book with custom classes and everything. Let me just grab my glasses and start a homebrewing a Monk Subclass "Psionicist"
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Writing 1/4 inspiration, 1/4 writing, 5/4's editing. ;p (math nerds your mind now hurts like a writers)
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.
The answer was pretty straight forwarded above. The Sorcerer uses magic and a spell system that is not compatible with the sort of psionic character archetype they wish to play. It's like someone asking for a gazelle and being given a deer. It's similar, but not what is being asked for.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.
The thread is going a million miles an hour and I have to post between calls at work from mobile, when posting on these forums from mobile is absolute torture. No, you're not going to get long intricate rewrites of answers I've already given you.
A sorcerer doesn't properly scratch the itch because its spellcasting is EXTREMELY inflexible, it's tremendously limited, and the spell selection for the class is not conducive to psykinetic characters. Rather than the ability feeling like a fluid, versatile power the character can use to solve problems creatively, the different sorcerer spells feel like bullets you shoot out of a gun labeled "PSYCHIC POWERS" that cannot be used creatively *at all*.
Can you use Catapult to hurl a grappling hook across a chasm or up a steep cliff to secure a line for climbing? Noooooooooooope. "The object takes ten billion damage and disintegrates from existence when the spell is done, Catapult can ONLY be used to throw random junk at bad guys".
Can you use Telekinesis to pull a stalactite down off the roof of a dragon's cave lair to impale the wyrm below as a means of harming the beast? Noooooooooooooooooooope. "Telekinesis can ONLY move single loose Large or smaller objects of one thousand pounds or less or equivalent creatures, and it can ONLY Move them harmlessly thirty feet or less!"
Are you allowed to use Mage Hand to silently slit the throat of a sleeping enemy sentry, using a small razor-sharp blade that requires way less than ten pounds of force to do the job? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope. "That's an ATTACK ROLL, and Mage Hand can't be used for attack rolls!"
Fluidly using psykinetic abilities to creatively solve issues and manipulate one's environment is at the heart of what makes them so fun to play. And there is nothing "fluid" - whatsoever - about D&D spellcaster gameplay
. It's like someone asking for a gazelle and being given a deer. It's similar, but not what is being asked for.
I would say, more like, someone asking for a yellow unicorn, while blue, pink, and white unicorns are available, and the community is saying no unicorns.
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Metaphor translation: Yellow being the pre-5e psionic, blue = mystic, pink = monk, white = all the psionic subclasses.
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.
The thread is going a million miles an hour and I have to post between calls at work from mobile, when posting on these forums from mobile is absolute torture. No, you're not going to get long intricate rewrites of answers I've already given you.
A sorcerer doesn't properly scratch the itch because its spellcasting is EXTREMELY inflexible, it's tremendously limited, and the spell selection for the class is not conducive to psykinetic characters. Rather than the ability feeling like a fluid, versatile power the character can use to solve problems creatively, the different sorcerer spells feel like bullets you shoot out of a gun labeled "PSYCHIC POWERS" that cannot be used creatively *at all*.
Can you use Catapult to hurl a grappling hook across a chasm or up a steep cliff to secure a line for climbing? Noooooooooooope. "The object takes ten billion damage and disintegrates from existence when the spell is done, Catapult can ONLY be used to throw random junk at bad guys".
Can you use Telekinesis to pull a stalactite down off the roof of a dragon's cave lair to impale the wyrm below as a means of harming the beast? Noooooooooooooooooooope. "Telekinesis can ONLY move single loose Large or smaller objects of one thousand pounds or less or equivalent creatures, and it can ONLY Move them harmlessly thirty feet or less!"
Are you allowed to use Mage Hand to silently slit the throat of a sleeping enemy sentry, using a small razor-sharp blade that requires way less than ten pounds of force to do the job? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope. "That's an ATTACK ROLL, and Mage Hand can't be used for attack rolls!"
Fluidly using psykinetic abilities to creatively solve issues and manipulate one's environment is at the heart of what makes them so fun to play. And there is nothing "fluid" - whatsoever - about D&D spellcaster gameplay
If that’s what you want, then it isn’t even really about Psionics. It is about magic being more flexible.
DnD does allow that if the GM is okay with it. But, you seem to want something that doesn’t depend on the GM. That’s never going to happen. The number crunching would be insane. How big is that stallactie? How securely attached is it? You’d need an advanced education in physics and. Chemistry. That’s not DnD’s market proposition. It is designed to be a player’s first RPG.
It simplifies by depending on the GM making calls.
I may have missed a post along the way, but nobody should be asking for a pre-5e Psionic, as mostly none of those designs were any better. And I'm even counting the 4th ed designs, which were the closest this deer ever got to being a gazelle.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.
I think it would be more accurate to say based on the... manifesto that yurei has put forward that despite their protestations to the contrary they don't actually want to play D&D but rather something fundamentally different that has the name D&D bolted onto it.
Because they seem to despise everything about D&D's class system.
A sorcerer doesn't properly scratch the itch because its spellcasting is EXTREMELY inflexible, it's tremendously limited, and the spell selection for the class is not conducive to psykinetic characters. Rather than the ability feeling like a fluid, versatile power the character can use to solve problems creatively, the different sorcerer spells feel like bullets you shoot out of a gun labeled "PSYCHIC POWERS" that cannot be used creatively *at all*.
Can you use Catapult to hurl a grappling hook across a chasm or up a steep cliff to secure a line for climbing? Noooooooooooope. "The object takes ten billion damage and disintegrates from existence when the spell is done, Catapult can ONLY be used to throw random junk at bad guys".
Can you use Telekinesis to pull a stalactite down off the roof of a dragon's cave lair to impale the wyrm below as a means of harming the beast? Noooooooooooooooooooope. "Telekinesis can ONLY move single loose Large or smaller objects of one thousand pounds or less or equivalent creatures, and it can ONLY Move them harmlessly thirty feet or less!"
Are you allowed to use Mage Hand to silently slit the throat of a sleeping enemy sentry, using a small razor-sharp blade that requires way less than ten pounds of force to do the job? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope. "That's an ATTACK ROLL, and Mage Hand can't be used for attack rolls!"
Fluidly using psykinetic abilities to creatively solve issues and manipulate one's environment is at the heart of what makes them so fun to play. And there is nothing "fluid" - whatsoever - about D&D spellcaster gameplay
1) You can absolutely Catapult a grappling hook. It's less than 5lbs, and it won't take any damage from the spell because that's not how grappling hooks work. You don't launch them into the thing you want to grab onto (a ledge, branch, boulder etc), you launch them past the thing and then hook as you pull it back, by which point the spell is over. And even if you do accidentally strike something, it's not going to take a million damage, it's going to take at most 3d8 bludgeoning which is likely to be ineffective against a lump of steel, unless your DM is equally prone to hyperbole.
2) If the stalactite wasn't loose you wouldn't be able to pull it down as a psion either, it would be part of the cave/terrain and you'd need to loosen it first. And if it is loose, TK will work on it just fine.
3) The system doesn't want anyone slitting throats at range, that's why the coup de grace rules require you to be within 5ft.
4) If you can't use sorcerer spells creatively the problem is with your creativity (or your DM), not the class.
A sorcerer doesn't properly scratch the itch because its spellcasting is EXTREMELY inflexible, it's tremendously limited, and the spell selection for the class is not conducive to psykinetic characters. Rather than the ability feeling like a fluid, versatile power the character can use to solve problems creatively, the different sorcerer spells feel like bullets you shoot out of a gun labeled "PSYCHIC POWERS" that cannot be used creatively *at all*.
You have described every power in D&D. Fundamentally what you're looking for is a powers system with power stunting, and while those do exist... they don't exist in D&D.
Could D&D have a power system? Sure. It's just a Very Big Project, and it wouldn't be a 'psi' system, it would be a powers system that happens to work for psi.
Opinion not justified by facts. I'd certainly allow it. I somewhat feel that your existing play group is toxic, because a lot of the things that you complain about (not limited to psi)... simply don't match my experiences about how people actually play the game.
A lot of this goes back into a mounting suspicion that I have about Yurei based on questions and comments that they've made over the last few days: I don't know that they've actually had that much expierience with 5th edition and how it is played in a real world sense; Like they were inferring that subclasses don't actually change or impact the core class that they come from at one point.
Also the Abberant mind is not typically some hideous mutant as they seem convinced which they would have learned if they actually read the material instead of looking for all the ways it isn't their precious psion.
Just wanted to address these two comments, so it is convenient that they are in a quote block for me:
I am playing in a 5e game with Yurei right now and everyone at the table (including her) is extremely chill. Several of the people in this group are carryovers from previous games, of which Yurei is included. I am a newcomer to this table. So Yurei has played at least two games recently and my experience with this group is everyone is pretty kind, considerate of others, and generally reasonably knowledgeable on their own PCs and their abilities.
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.
I think it would be more accurate to say based on the... manifesto that yurei has put forward that despite their protestations to the contrary they don't actually want to play D&D but rather something fundamentally different that has the name D&D bolted onto it.
Because they seem to despise everything about D&D's class system.
I'm fairly certain a couple of years ago they had signed up to a discord game I was pushed into the DMs seat of, during my "I'm totally done with DMing phase." Sadly the setting was one I wanted to run, sort of a Shadowrun meets a Korean Gameworld is the real world setting. Sadly I was pushed into it way before the setting had been fully cooked, and I was totally not mentally in a DMing place. Plus the people doing the pushing wanted Play by post on discord, and I'm a face to face DM, play by post kind of kills my ability to focus on what is happening.
Also right now I'm building a "Psionist" out of a way of 4 elements monk. Honestly much easier than planned. However it will have spell slots for ease of DnDB integration, and so the spells show up in the spell list.
For a list of abilities, I'm using the AD&D book for the greatest amount of abilities.
Nothing is pointless, everything matters. Don't let the naysayers get you down. While it's not the easiest ask, and honestly the easy answer is to use what has been given. Sometimes what is needed is a bit of caffeine and motivation. I'm building your Homebrew class in DnDB right now. Well an AD&D Psionicist meets Monk way of the 4 elements. I'm replacing the monk spells with psionic disciplines.
Also worth noting that the sorcerer-as-kineticist is 100% utterly incapable of manipulating any object or entity weighing in excess of ten pounds until ninth level, when it can suddenly manipulate a thousand pounds. Ten pounds or under, or half a ton by the end of a campaign. No in between.
This is not how psykinetic characters work.
Please do not contact or message me.
Ok, time for another string of replies and thoughts.
Thank you for replying. While You say what you want, by bashing on what you don't want, you really don't make a good case for what would make you happy.
But I can see:
You dislike the 2 out of the 4 types of casters in 5e D&D (Wizard, Sorcerer) you haven't mentioned Warlock or Monk casting as pro or con, in fact you've kind of ignored that Monk in 5e is basically the 2nd Ed Psionicist reflavored, and you have made it clear you dislike spell slots so the Mystic Reflavored into the Artificer seems out as well.
Meaning you dislike all the official D&D 5e Psionic classes, and subclasses.
Still no description beyond no spell slots, can do melee and or ranged combat big boom up to five times a day. This doesn't give a clear path btw, just sets a desire off in the distance while saying what you don't want in it.
Paraphrase " The OGL of D&D is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural." time to look into 5e systems, and OGL books that have psionic systems not tied to normal D&D mechanics. There is even a Darksun 5e Community, with a bunch of Homebrew based on AD&D and 3.5 psionics. Also Pathfinder is about to release a 5e version of their setting. (Or at least that's the big rumor)
Also while I enjoy the authors of Dragonlace (their non-D&D fantasy books) I am not really a big fan of the setting, it's a grim dark D&D setting that focuses of Big Battles and Grim Dark fantasy battles. Not my flavor, but I can see why some love it.
Me it's Dark Sun, which is ironic, because nothing is more Grim Dark than Darksun, except maybe Warhammer fantasy... and only by a pinch. Darksun is the main Psionic Setting in D&D, as Magic use in the setting counts as a war crime according to the latest Geneva convention.
Which means the one setting that would have forced WotC to finally release a Psionic Class, is on indefinite hold because Hasbro doesn't want to publish a Mature setting that deals with real problematic issues. Note all the Problematic issues with Dark Sun are the things being done by the Villains who control the world. It is the Players Job to fight that evil, free the people, destroy the Sorcerer Kings and try and restore some balance in the lives of the population.
This is why joining an active 5e Group with open use of Homebrew classes is such a powerful thing. Because it's not hard to use the tools here in DnDB to homebrew up what you want. ie Recreate some semblance of a AD&D or 3.5 psion class. I personally would use Warlock and build it as a subclass, although Monk and Artificer would work as well. Monk already is based on the AD&D PSP system, and Artificer is very much the cleaned up final version of the Mystic. I know you hate spell slots, but that is the primary tracking tool D&D uses in 5e for any ability that has spell like properties, look at Mind Flayers. Mind Flayers...
I do sometimes hate how the forum post editor is. At least it made what I'm addressing bold.
D&D has always been a generic table top role playing game system, with each version becoming more universal with each iteration. 5e is one of the most generic easy to use easy to modify game systems. It's why there are so many people making OGL content. The irony being GRUPs a system which was intended to be universal failed hard at doing just that, and other game systems are too focused on one type of gameplay to ever truly be considered universal.
Also while spell mechanics is different than spell casting, psionics is a bit more complicated than just a spellcaster variant, unless you consider a way of the open hand Monk to be a Spell Caster.
Yureil wants a psion, in D&D, well she* can do that, however WotC has chosen to not release a 5e update to the setting that requires them to make the class she wants, which IMO is a mistake, but it's their choice so it is what it is.
A psionist, mystic, psion, battlemind, and monk, are a few known D&D psionic classes from official lore and gameplay mechanics. And yes Monks are psionic in the lore. they can fulfill a caster role, and Yuriel wants a non-slot magic caster. I would use Pact Magic as the alternative, and then build a subclass that becomes one of the known psionic classes (except monk because everyone ignore monk)
Yes she can play it, but she'll have to make it herself, or find it in partnered content or on the homebrew subclass area. Trust me when I say I've seen a few psionic homebrews here on DnDB that are balanced, and I would allow in my game as DM.
(*That is correct? I saw some comment before but I didn't see your response)
Honestly, that would be your personal bias against spell slots, they work and are a useful mechanic. But you are describing Pact Magic... While it may resemble spell slots, it's very different.
Also I would just build what you want out of a Monk, I'd grab the 2nd ed Psionics Book, the 3rd ed Darksun books, and the 4th ed book with Battle mind, and build my homebrew out of Monk. Ki points are just PSPs done better. I would use the described 5e spell for their abilities list, and I would give them a spend Ki to gain a feat until (x short amount of time) ability.
As Ki is a limited daily resource. It works perfectly for your needs as a casting resource. Also because psions have more hit points than a caster, and can do melee or sit back and shoot mind bullets, Monk plays well with this. Additionally I've said this a bunch, and if needed I can show it in the lore. Monk is officially a psionic class, and always has been. Hopefully the 2024 edition (5.5) will improve monks to not feel weak in the mid levels.
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Note I stand in the middle of this issue, always have. As I said Dark Sun is one of my favorite settings, in spite of it's issues. Nothing more heroic than overthrowing dictators and police states.
"in exchange for not having the ability to cast .........."
So does this mean you want a class that can never duel class into any casting class?
What about other classes taking a dip into the psion class.
What about using magic items?
Are you born with psionic ability and then learn to use them better or can anyone just learn to tap their own internal psion powers? Everyone has them but some don't use them.
Can you develop(learn) new psionic abilities as you level up? Can you max out ALL of those abilities?
How many different base abilities are there? Some places say there are only about 6 base abilities but they cover almost everything possible and some claim their are 36 different abilities each very specific.
I guess we’re not going to get a straight answer as to why s Sorcerer can’t scratch that itch.
Seems like a waste of time to invest any more energy into this thread when Yurei isn’t going to answer such questions.
Unseen Servant is 30 pounds, Levitate is 500 lbs, Thunderwave doesn't even have a weight limit... I wouldn't mind buffing Catapult but that's plenty. And you can pick up Floating Disk too.
Eh, it actually kind of is how they work in fiction, there are very few intermediate power telekinetic characters, but sure, it's not ideal for games. That doesn't actually require any new mechanics, it's just a few new spells, or a class/subclass feature that upgrades mage hand (the arcane trickster already does that).
I already provided a list of spells which disproves this claim of no 1st through 3rd spells anyway.
you know what... I am half tempted to make Yureil's class in DnDB using Monk as a base. I own the 2nd ed Psionics handbook, all the Darksun books, and have been DMing longer than some here have been alive. I have the skill set needed. Hells in 2012 I even wrote an OGL book with custom classes and everything. Let me just grab my glasses and start a homebrewing a Monk Subclass "Psionicist"
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Writing 1/4 inspiration, 1/4 writing, 5/4's editing. ;p (math nerds your mind now hurts like a writers)
The answer was pretty straight forwarded above. The Sorcerer uses magic and a spell system that is not compatible with the sort of psionic character archetype they wish to play. It's like someone asking for a gazelle and being given a deer. It's similar, but not what is being asked for.
The thread is going a million miles an hour and I have to post between calls at work from mobile, when posting on these forums from mobile is absolute torture. No, you're not going to get long intricate rewrites of answers I've already given you.
A sorcerer doesn't properly scratch the itch because its spellcasting is EXTREMELY inflexible, it's tremendously limited, and the spell selection for the class is not conducive to psykinetic characters. Rather than the ability feeling like a fluid, versatile power the character can use to solve problems creatively, the different sorcerer spells feel like bullets you shoot out of a gun labeled "PSYCHIC POWERS" that cannot be used creatively *at all*.
Can you use Catapult to hurl a grappling hook across a chasm or up a steep cliff to secure a line for climbing? Noooooooooooope. "The object takes ten billion damage and disintegrates from existence when the spell is done, Catapult can ONLY be used to throw random junk at bad guys".
Can you use Telekinesis to pull a stalactite down off the roof of a dragon's cave lair to impale the wyrm below as a means of harming the beast? Noooooooooooooooooooope. "Telekinesis can ONLY move single loose Large or smaller objects of one thousand pounds or less or equivalent creatures, and it can ONLY Move them harmlessly thirty feet or less!"
Are you allowed to use Mage Hand to silently slit the throat of a sleeping enemy sentry, using a small razor-sharp blade that requires way less than ten pounds of force to do the job? Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooope. "That's an ATTACK ROLL, and Mage Hand can't be used for attack rolls!"
Fluidly using psykinetic abilities to creatively solve issues and manipulate one's environment is at the heart of what makes them so fun to play. And there is nothing "fluid" - whatsoever - about D&D spellcaster gameplay
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I would say, more like, someone asking for a yellow unicorn, while blue, pink, and white unicorns are available, and the community is saying no unicorns.
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Metaphor translation: Yellow being the pre-5e psionic, blue = mystic, pink = monk, white = all the psionic subclasses.
If that’s what you want, then it isn’t even really about Psionics. It is about magic being more flexible.
DnD does allow that if the GM is okay with it. But, you seem to want something that doesn’t depend on the GM. That’s never going to happen. The number crunching would be insane. How big is that stallactie? How securely attached is it? You’d need an advanced education in physics and. Chemistry. That’s not DnD’s market proposition. It is designed to be a player’s first RPG.
It simplifies by depending on the GM making calls.
I may have missed a post along the way, but nobody should be asking for a pre-5e Psionic, as mostly none of those designs were any better. And I'm even counting the 4th ed designs, which were the closest this deer ever got to being a gazelle.
I think it would be more accurate to say based on the... manifesto that yurei has put forward that despite their protestations to the contrary they don't actually want to play D&D but rather something fundamentally different that has the name D&D bolted onto it.
Because they seem to despise everything about D&D's class system.
1) You can absolutely Catapult a grappling hook. It's less than 5lbs, and it won't take any damage from the spell because that's not how grappling hooks work. You don't launch them into the thing you want to grab onto (a ledge, branch, boulder etc), you launch them past the thing and then hook as you pull it back, by which point the spell is over. And even if you do accidentally strike something, it's not going to take a million damage, it's going to take at most 3d8 bludgeoning which is likely to be ineffective against a lump of steel, unless your DM is equally prone to hyperbole.
2) If the stalactite wasn't loose you wouldn't be able to pull it down as a psion either, it would be part of the cave/terrain and you'd need to loosen it first. And if it is loose, TK will work on it just fine.
3) The system doesn't want anyone slitting throats at range, that's why the coup de grace rules require you to be within 5ft.
4) If you can't use sorcerer spells creatively the problem is with your creativity (or your DM), not the class.
You have described every power in D&D. Fundamentally what you're looking for is a powers system with power stunting, and while those do exist... they don't exist in D&D.
Could D&D have a power system? Sure. It's just a Very Big Project, and it wouldn't be a 'psi' system, it would be a powers system that happens to work for psi.
Just wanted to address these two comments, so it is convenient that they are in a quote block for me:
I am playing in a 5e game with Yurei right now and everyone at the table (including her) is extremely chill. Several of the people in this group are carryovers from previous games, of which Yurei is included. I am a newcomer to this table. So Yurei has played at least two games recently and my experience with this group is everyone is pretty kind, considerate of others, and generally reasonably knowledgeable on their own PCs and their abilities.
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Never mind. Whatever. All pointless anyway.
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I'm fairly certain a couple of years ago they had signed up to a discord game I was pushed into the DMs seat of, during my "I'm totally done with DMing phase." Sadly the setting was one I wanted to run, sort of a Shadowrun meets a Korean Gameworld is the real world setting. Sadly I was pushed into it way before the setting had been fully cooked, and I was totally not mentally in a DMing place. Plus the people doing the pushing wanted Play by post on discord, and I'm a face to face DM, play by post kind of kills my ability to focus on what is happening.
Also right now I'm building a "Psionist" out of a way of 4 elements monk. Honestly much easier than planned. However it will have spell slots for ease of DnDB integration, and so the spells show up in the spell list.
For a list of abilities, I'm using the AD&D book for the greatest amount of abilities.
Nothing is pointless, everything matters. Don't let the naysayers get you down. While it's not the easiest ask, and honestly the easy answer is to use what has been given. Sometimes what is needed is a bit of caffeine and motivation. I'm building your Homebrew class in DnDB right now. Well an AD&D Psionicist meets Monk way of the 4 elements. I'm replacing the monk spells with psionic disciplines.
Specifically:
Clairsentient Devotions, Psychokinetic Devotions, Psychometabolic Devotions, Telepathic Devotions, and Psychoportive Devotions.